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  1. #61
    Grizzled Grave Robber Knight of the Round Table neutronbomb's Avatar
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    Re: The Imam Jacket

    Are you definitively saying you believe 100% these are two different jackets? What's interesting is that I find what you show simply reinforces that they are the same jacket. We're using the same images to "clearly" show opposite conclusions.

  2. #62
    Artifact Aficionado Knight of the Round Table Kt Templar's Avatar
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    Re: The Imam Jacket

    Yes, I concur, they are clearly different jackets. Using reference images that are high enough res to to tell. The construction of the collar stand is very different.
    "Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom." Jean Rasczak

  3. #63
    Grizzled Grave Robber Knight of the Round Table neutronbomb's Avatar
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    Re: The Imam Jacket

    Well..each to their own



    Quote Originally Posted by Kt Templar View Post
    Yes, I concur, they are clearly different jackets. Using reference images that are high enough res to to tell. The construction of the collar stand is very different.
    To be clear you concur with Mac that they are different jackets. I do not concur with Mac. I believe 100% they are the same jacket.
    Last edited by neutronbomb; 05-19-2015 at 09:41 PM.

  4. #64

    Re: The Imam Jacket

    I agree with KT that they are different jackets.


    1. Collar/collar stand attachment seam appears different on each jacket, and, as KT pointed out, the construction appears to differ. In addition, the Hawaii collar to collar stand attachment point appears somewhat crooked and the collar 'jumps' over the collar stand; this is evident in multiple Hawaii shots. On the Imam the collar stand proceeds straight out and the collar aligns nicely with the stand.

    2. The point at which the collar starts to fold downward is different. On the Imam the collar rises from the collar stand seam and then folds downward. On the Hawaii the collar folds downward beginning at the collar stand seam and there is no hint of a previous fold in the leather.




    3. The collars present differently. The Imam left side collar stands upright, while the Hawaii collar lays relatively flat.




    4. The left side zipper does not behave the same on either jacket. On the Imam the zipper forms a wavy S shape and constantly reveals the inner lining. It does so without fail throughout the various shots of the Imam. On the Hawaii jacket the zipper never evidences the wavy S shape form (other than when the zipper undulates due to jerky movement), it continually hangs essentially straight down without revealing the liner.




    5. The zipper gaps do not match. The Imam zipper terminates lower below the collar stand, while the Hawaii zipper terminates closer to the collar stand. Most who have weighed in on this subject have agreed that this appears to be the case.






    One may discount some of these discrepancies for various reasons, but taken together they are compelling and strongly suggest that the Imam and Hawaii are different jackets.

  5. #65

    Re: The Imam Jacket

    I hate to rub salt into the wound NB but I have to go with the evidence presented. Mac provides a compelling case. There also appears to be some distressing on the left collar stand of the Hawaii jacket that I don't see on the Imam. The zipper clearly goes to the bottom of the collar stand on the Hawaii jacket whereas it does not on the Imam. That's a structural issue that can't be changed with a sagging collar...maybe there's a 4th jacket.... Also noticed how the edge of the left pocket on the Hawaii jacket is turn outward near the storm flap.
    Last edited by Ram Man; 05-19-2015 at 11:15 PM.

  6. #66
    Grizzled Grave Robber Knight of the Round Table neutronbomb's Avatar
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    Re: The Imam Jacket

    It's ok Ram Man as there's no wound to rub salt in. I pored over all these exact same photos, images, and references that Macs discussing for months 5 1/2 years ago and still spend I'd say 2 to 3 hours a week analyzing various things that interest me. What Mac is pointing out bothered me at first also. Gunslinger and I argued all these same points in his tracking jackets thread.

    I have screen grabbed every single frame of Raiders where the jacket is worn that shows something that might be useful. But anyway, they're the same jacket. Period. It's so obvious to me now that it hurts. But, that's not the point. If I come across something or find something to undo the entire jacket matching in a multiple of ways, then I'll be happy to change my point of view. It's not like I have anything vested in whether they're the same jacket or not. For me it's like some people that like to do crossword puzzles. Something to figure out. Finally seeing through the optical illusions and distortions created by 2 dimensional camera angles and the poor image quality is rewarding in and of itself.

    I'll post more stuff and the debate is fun. But everyone's entitled to their opinion and free to share it. Like I said before, Mac's input is appreciated as it gives people other perspectives in order to make up their own mind about what they see. And then also maybe they'll feel like joining in also like you just did. It's not important that anyone's in agreement with my take or not. It's the fact that there's discussion that makes for a vibrant thread and site and that makes it better for all of us.
    Last edited by neutronbomb; 05-20-2015 at 04:58 PM.

  7. #67

    Re: The Imam Jacket

    Well said

  8. #68

    Re: The Imam Jacket

    One variation could be explained by the fact that the Imam scene was supposedly filmed first inside Elstree. The jacket would have been new. The Hawaii scenes were filmed last, in terms of the jacket. More distressing could have been, and looks as though--was put into the jacket between the first and last. The Hawaii collar lays flat, the Hero had the wonky collar, wrinkles around the right pocket and the striations.

  9. #69
    Grizzled Grave Robber Knight of the Round Table neutronbomb's Avatar
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    Re: The Imam Jacket

    So it looks like we'll be adding a new jacket #4. The Hawaii Jacket. First, a thank you to Mac for diving into this and pointing out these differences. I looked back through the thread and my previous work, but really Macs compares pretty much tell the story. So I clocked some hi-res screen capture time and now agree that The Hawaii Jacket is a separate 4th jacket that's been identified so far for Raiders. I should also give props to Gunslinger who also pointed out the zipper gap differences and argued The Hawaii Jacket was not the Imam jacket back in his tracking jackets thread many, many moons ago. What can I say, the similarities between the two stole my heart.

















    Bottoms up




    Here's a compare I put together in addition to Macs work.




    Also, Does this look like a one piece collar stand like The Prototype/TOD:

    Last edited by neutronbomb; 02-02-2016 at 04:02 AM.

  10. #70

    Re: The Imam Jacket (2 of 3 jackets used in ROTLA)

    Such humility

 

 
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