PDA

View Full Version : Mythbusting the Raiders Jackets - Zippers



Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 02:17 AM
I figure there are a bunch of great topics here that are worth debating and clearing up some myths that have been taken as fact over the years - be they texture, length, details, hide type, and so on. I thought I'd start with something fairly straightforward, though.

How about the zipper? Weirdly enough, where we can see the zipper pull in the movie, it is on the Left hand side on every jacket. In the image below, you will see the Main Hero jacket, the Hawaii jacket and the Bantu Wind jacket all share this trait.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Raiders-Left-Handed-Zippers.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Raiders-Left-Handed-Zippers.jpg)

To me, it gets less clear at the top. It looks like there is different hardware used on the Bantu Wind / Imams jackets versus the Main Hero and Hawaii jackets - specifically the stopper at the top. In the shots of Terry Leonard, for instance, the jacket that he wears that MAY be the BW jacket, it appears more tarnished, and physically longer than the others.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg)

I've just found some more shots that will help us plus this into the issue Neutronbomb raises on whether the Imams and Hawaii may be one and the same. They're below.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h16m14s235.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h16m14s235.png) http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h17m03s135.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h17m03s135.png) http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m00s140.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m00s140.png) http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m18s58.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m18s58.png) http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m30s182.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-08-11-10h40m30s182.png)

crismans
08-11-2010, 02:52 AM
Tony said that the zipper for the jacket he had was too long and had been crammed in. Since he said this was the Hawaii jacket he had to examine, do you see this same phenomenon with the Imam's? Of course, we don't know what these jackets went through. A zipper might have been replaced along the way somewhere.

neutronbomb
08-11-2010, 02:56 AM
Good photos Gunslinger. I'm sure we'll get some good discussions going on this over the next few days. My work schedules pretty tight right now, but I definitely want to get into more. As far as myths go, the right sided zipper jacket made for HF, given to Kimball with instructions to ensure this is what HF wears throughout the film, but then all the "stunt" jackets are left sided zippers is a puzzle for sure.

I agree that of the handful of jackets (though I'm still exploring some difference of opinions we have on whether the Iman's is more related to the bantu wind/truck drag stunt or the Main Hero and hawaii) that we see on film, all seem to clearly have left sided zippers. I don't see any that have right sided zippers. Pretty weird. I don't know what to make of that myth unless HF wore what..........only "stunt" jackets?

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 03:08 AM
Well I guess that means every jacket in the movie is a stunt jacket, because every accounted-for zipper is on the left side.

neutronbomb
08-11-2010, 03:36 AM
Tony said that the zipper for the jacket he had was too long and had been crammed in. Since he said this was the Hawaii jacket he had to examine, do you see this same phenomenon with the Imam's? Of course, we don't know what these jackets went through. A zipper might have been replaced along the way somewhere.


Sigh..........I hate to take heat for this. But, are we sure that Tony HIMSELF did say it WAS the Hawaii jacket he was given. If he did then cool, but the most I personally got from talking to him was that the type of leather of the jacket he was given can be seen on the jacket worn in the Hawaii scene. So for me I've always kept the possibilities open. I think the Main Jacket's zipper definitely looks crammed, hence the huge curl. I haven't really been able to see what would look like a crammed zipper on the Hawaii or Iman's. Although we do see in the Iman's where the jacket lays open and the zipper waves in and out. Maybe it does that because it's crammed??
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_205-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=205-1-1-1.jpg)

I know Tony mentioned to me when he was developing the leather and had the jacket "that counts" in hand he was focused on the type of leather it was and in duplicating it. He did say that it definitely had the cells that is the hallmark of shrunken lambskin. He was absolutely adamant on that point. The jacket was in pretty bad shape according to him so I've always thought there were probably a thousand nicks and marks and what not on the jacket and thought there may be a possibility there may have been some ribbiness to it. I see a ton of texture, bumps, lines, and everything on all the jackets we can see on film. Even the Hawaii. There's even ribbiness that matches the famous left side film jacket panel on Castor's version 1 jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_CIMG4499-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=CIMG4499-1.jpg)

It's just something that doesn't seem to be that uncommon on shrunken lambskin. But, as I know with the route I went with my own personal jacket, there is definitely a breed that will give you SERIOUS ribbiness.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. I know other's may have more definitive information directly from Tony so I defer to them. But, from what I can see of the jackets on film I'm still keeping all possibilities open.

neutronbomb
08-11-2010, 03:42 AM
Kt and agent5 and a host of others have been studying the film for freakin years and years and years. I've never heard any mention of a right sided zipper jacket on film from anyone until recently, but I have to agree. At this point I also believe every accounted for zipper is on the left side.



Well I guess that means every jacket in the movie is a stunt jacket, because every accounted-for zipper is on the left side.

neutronbomb
08-11-2010, 03:45 AM
Gunslinger, what's your thoughts of the Iman zipper vs bantu zipper. I totally have to run, but the bantu looks much more yellow than the Iman's to me. What do you think?

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 03:58 AM
My impression of the colour is that they are indeed nickel as per the Nowak replicas. That punched me in the face today, but i didnt note the shot. You can't tell in the BW scene though - there's some serious colour filtering or using tungsten-balanced stock with blue (day-balanced gels) under going on in that scene to give a night-time blue hue. It totally messes with any accurate idea of the colour of the zip.

crismans
08-11-2010, 04:23 AM
I'm not sure of the exact conversation, NB, but the first time I talked to Tony, he said you could see the jacket he received around 3:23 in the movie. I don't think he said the type of leather, I'm almost positive that he said the jacket he had was in that shot.

But, again, I can't make that claim 100%.

Chewbacca Jones
08-11-2010, 04:53 AM
Let's not forget, in accounting for zippers, that the jacket is half zipped up in many shots for Raiders. It's much harder to tell which side the pull is on in those cases. The righty could be hidden amongst them.

neutronbomb
08-11-2010, 05:11 AM
It was the shot of Terry Leonard wearing the truck drag jacket that I thought might look a bit more yellow than the Imans/other jackets. I noticed it in your collage towards the middle/bottom of this one. Also, it may be trying to see too much detail, but I was looking at the zipper stop possibly looking bigger/longer also.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/th_leonard1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/?action=view&current=leonard1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg)

I did come across this where Tony was commenting on minute 3:23:
".........POST THIS E-MAIL FOR ALL THE INDY FANS IF NOTHING ELSE IT IS A GOOD EDUCATION . MY VERY BEST REGARDS TONY NIOWAK .ALSO TO SEE THAT LEATHER TEXTURE IN THAT FILM PLEASE WATCH MINUTE 3 . 23 SECOND . THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING ."

@chewbacca jones: You do make a valid point about the jacket being zipped or partially zipped in some of the scenes although it's looked to me in those scenes to be the main jacket (temple, WOS, Raven, flying wing) where we can see the main jacket has a left sided zipper.

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 05:26 AM
Hi Chewie,

Have a read through my tracking jackets thread, and you'll see where I'm coming from. There's no evidence for there being any more than 4 jackets seen on screen. So when we know that the hero jacket as seen outside the Well of Souls has a LH zipper, and we can peg it's same very distinctive collar to the Raven Bar scene, we know that zipped-up jacket also has a LH zip. If there is a right hand zipper (and why would there be one odd one? - it doesn't make much sense), it would have to be the Imams House...

...actually, just checked - nope - it's got a LH zipper, too.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Imams-3-shot.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Imams-3-shot.jpg)

So if one were to claim, for instance, that Cooper made 2 jackets for Raiders, and he made them with Right Handed zippers, and at least one of them was made of calf, and this occurred around the time that shooting was taking place in France, then you'd think either the La Rochelle jacket would have a RH zipper (no - LH confirmed), or the next scene - Imam's (no - LH confirmed), or the next scene, the temple corridor (no - LH confirmed), or the next - the Idol Grab / escape (no - LH confirmed).

But I'm probably getting willful now. :D Apologies... Momentum decreasing... :D

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 05:35 AM
@NB - Yeah, and middle bottom pic in my collage. But I'm left with the sense that they're all that tarnished nickel. The colour balancing of any shot - esp. the one of TL there - will skew it - that shot looks very warm, so it'll look more pronounced. Ditto with that zipper stop. Sometimes it looks like one is slightly longer / rounded / brassy - but again, bouncing light could create that effect. If we're trying to make sense of those, I think we're going to have to keep looking at the zip / stand / collar combos, and other markings of course.

We know for sure the Imams & BW are different, with it being highly likely the TL stunt jacket is the BW, based on this stuff, but I may be wrong.

Raskolnikov
08-11-2010, 06:08 AM
I have the feeling that the Iman's house jacket was, in fact, the one that Tony copied (and thus the Hawaii jacket?). Two of the main characteristics of Tony's Raiders are the collar lenght (larger than most of the rest of jackets of the film, IMHO, floppy or not) and the pleat depth, less deep that many others too. Both features seem to be in the Iman's jacket. The collar is clearely large, almost hughe, and there is a moment were we can see a little bit the pleat, whichs seems to have (although we can see it only vagely) very little depth.
I'll post some screen caps on the 'Tracking jackets topic'.
Regards,
Rask

RCSignals
08-11-2010, 06:34 AM
................
I did come across this where Tony was commenting on minute 3:23:
".........POST THIS E-MAIL FOR ALL THE INDY FANS IF NOTHING ELSE IT IS A GOOD EDUCATION . MY VERY BEST REGARDS TONY NIOWAK .ALSO TO SEE THAT LEATHER TEXTURE IN THAT FILM PLEASE WATCH MINUTE 3 . 23 SECOND . THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING ."

.........



That is correct. Tony himself never said Hawaii jacket, he just gave one spot where the jacket he was given to duplicate was first seen.

Kt Templar
08-11-2010, 08:21 AM
Tony's Indy 1 jackets have a quite Hawaii collar, the way it opens up like a flower and the lapels play out and lay flat.

The studio jacket has a more upright collar.

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 08:41 AM
That is true, KT.

Having said that, I've found my Nowak jacket's collar sits perfectly the same as the main hero jacket rather than splaying out so much. I didn't have them modify the pattern per se - just adjusting the way they sew the collar so it sits how I wanted it to to match the half normal, half curled over/droopy collar of the hero.

PLATON
08-11-2010, 12:38 PM
The left hand side zipper is one more proof that Peter made the original jacket.

Unless Neil Cooper who for all his life was putting the zippers on the right side went crazy for a moment and put this one on the left side. Maybe someone who insists that Neil Cooper made the jacket cares to explain that to us. Especially since the entire cast, the costume crew and St. Spielberg himself (who stayed all night helping Neil Cooper to make the jacket) have corroborated this.

Tyderium
08-11-2010, 01:27 PM
Good to have a place where some candor can enter these discussions again.
Welcome back Platon.

crismans
08-11-2010, 03:29 PM
................
I did come across this where Tony was commenting on minute 3:23:
".........POST THIS E-MAIL FOR ALL THE INDY FANS IF NOTHING ELSE IT IS A GOOD EDUCATION . MY VERY BEST REGARDS TONY NIOWAK .ALSO TO SEE THAT LEATHER TEXTURE IN THAT FILM PLEASE WATCH MINUTE 3 . 23 SECOND . THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING ."

.........



That is correct. Tony himself never said Hawaii jacket, he just gave one spot where the jacket he was given to duplicate was first seen.


I stand corrected! I wasn't sure if he said the jacket or the leather.

Chewbacca Jones
08-11-2010, 07:14 PM
The left hand side zipper is one more proof that Peter made the original jacket.

Unless Neil Cooper who for all his life was putting the zippers on the right side went crazy for a moment and put this one on the left side. Maybe someone who insists that Neil Cooper made the jacket cares to explain that to us. Especially since the entire cast, the costume crew and St. Spielberg himself (who stayed all night helping Neil Cooper to make the jacket) have corroborated this.


We, I don't insist, but consider it possible. My thought is this; Since the final jacket came about by going through various design stages and makers, perhaps the left zipper pull was an element that existed before reaching Cooper's hands, and simply kept. Or maybe they had a reason for it being on the left.

Ultimately, if the director says to me, "Copy this jacket, with X changes," and he hands me one with a left zipper pull, I'm not going to take it upon myself to change that unless it's on the list of changes to be made.

On the other hand, my tailor tells me that changing the side of a zipper pull isn't that hard. If the jacket was made with a right side pull and it was noticed after the fact, it would be a simple thing to fix for continuity.

Kt Templar
08-11-2010, 07:24 PM
On the other hand, my tailor tells me that changing the side of a zipper pull isn't that hard. If the jacket was made with a right side pull and it was noticed after the fact, it would be a simple thing to fix for continuity.


You have to remove the zipper, turn it over take off the slide and refit it and re-sew the whole zip back in. You can't just take off the slide and swap sides. What happens to the stopper at the bottom of the jacket?

Seems like a pretty big job to me.

jasonalun
08-11-2010, 07:38 PM
Not meaning to start anything here, but FWIW my mother was a professional tailor for many years and she doesn't think switching zips on a leather jacket is easy. I blew out my zipper once on a non-Indy leather jacket I had - my favorite one at the time! - and she changed it, but it was a bit of work and there were traces of the work afterward (it looked fine, but you could tell the zip had been tailored in). I think perhaps it depends on the leather? Tough leather is hard to work with, I know that. You need a tough machine to sew it and sewing by hand is almost out of the question.

RCSignals
08-11-2010, 07:47 PM
On the other hand, my tailor tells me that changing the side of a zipper pull isn't that hard. If the jacket was made with a right side pull and it was noticed after the fact, it would be a simple thing to fix for continuity.


You have to remove the zipper, turn it over take off the slide and refit it and re-sew the whole zip back in. You can't just take off the slide and swap sides. What happens to the stopper at the bottom of the jacket?

Seems like a pretty big job to me.


That is as I understand. It is not a simple as moving the pull to the other side, the bottom stop must also be moved. Maybe it's easy with some zipper types.

Sewing in a zipper without showing evidence is also not a simple job. It can be done but takes care.
It is my understanding that the jacket given to Tony to duplicate showed no sign of having had he zipper changed.

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Occam's razor. Think with an open mind. Perhaps a myth about Right Handed zippers gets started because right now there's a reason why someone wants to sell jackets with non-screen accurate Right Handed zippers.

Chewbacca Jones
08-12-2010, 05:55 AM
Well, I would not have thought a zipper switch would be easy, but I am going on what I was told. I'm not a tailor, so I wouldn't know first hand.

Even if you drop that idea, there is my other point.

Gunslinger
08-12-2010, 06:04 AM
Yeah, at the end of the day, it's possible that anything could have happened (and it's not like I can have a go at someone for coming up with theoreticals! ;) ), but literally all the jackets we see on screen are left handed.

RCSignals
08-12-2010, 06:06 AM
Yes it's possible. Visual evidence doesn't reveal any right handed zippers so far though.
But would they bother to change one or two jackets to left hand from right hand? It most likely wouldn't be noticed by anyone watching the movie. Who knows?

Gunslinger
08-12-2010, 06:43 AM
Yeah, I guess this is what I'm saying. I just can't see anyone bothering to change such a thing, especially when they're shooting the movie cheap and dirty.