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View Full Version : Is this ToD hat used as the same one in Raiders?



Canyon
08-08-2010, 10:24 PM
I have just read the hat post here by Dr. Jones, which suggested that possibly one of the hats used in Temple of Doom were actually also used in Last Crusade. A while ago, I noticed something interesting about the fedora on the rope bridge scene and had posted this on COW. ;)

If you take a look at this picture, notice the bash on the back of the fedora.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3473003261_ee70a3398d.jpg?v=0

This reminded me of the scene from Raiders where the truck blows up and a bash that I had put into my own AB...

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/192.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3473918424_2bd0a48100.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3473918408_8ce95dde51.jpg?v=0

We all know that the Raiders fedora had a very high crown and quite a wide brim, and I know that it's probably nothing, but I thought I would share it with you, nonetheless. ;D

Now, I know that this is a long shot, but could this actually be one of the hats from Raiders?

Gunslinger
08-08-2010, 10:34 PM
Hi Canyon! Good to see you!

I'm 99% what you're seeing is Ford's head pushing up to the underside of the bash - and it has pushed the centre line off to one side in the middle. It is seen in a bunch of scenes in Raiders. If you check this out this shot of putting the Ark box lid on in the Well of Souls (sorry for my hat overlay) - you'll see how it also affects the camel humps - one is concave, the other convex. Facing the hat, the convex one on the right "reaches" further to the far side of the hat, giving the effect. If you tighten up your top crease and make it bent, it will do this.

crismans
08-09-2010, 12:40 AM
On a similar note, there is a hat in the "campfire" scene (where Indy is holding up his hand and backing off because of the snake, that the hat looks very Raiders to me. It seems to have a tight pinch and that tall crown. Probably just a trick of lighting I would imagine.

jasonalun
08-09-2010, 01:16 AM
You know, Canyon, for a while I did believe that the Raiders hat appeared in Temple of Doom. That hat in your first pic would be a primary candidate. It appears tall enough (I did some measurements based on the ribbon once-have to dig them out) and the brim looks wide enough. I am still not 100% sure it is not a Raiders hat. It is not beyond the bounds of credibility at all. They might have had one left over, a stunt hat that didn't get used much (remember Deb said she ordered a dozen and we only see a few in Raiders http://www.theraider.net/features/interviews/deborah_nadoolman.php) or something.

Gunslinger
08-09-2010, 01:26 AM
Looking at the bridge shot of Canyon's above, the block shape -may- be a match. To me it definitely looks more like a Raiders block than a ToD / LC, especially if you're comparing it to the Hawaii hat which is also shallowly bashed. But the main issue would be whether you could still get it to retain it's "correct" shape when bashed deeper.

Hmm - I do have a little experiment I can do when I'm starting to bash another hat off my Raiders block. Should give us something a bit more conclusive....

bendingoak
08-09-2010, 02:01 AM
I would have to say it's two different hats. If you go and continue with that scene in TOD you will notice the bow is very different than that of the Raiders bow. Again the signature of the hat maker.

jasonalun
08-09-2010, 02:10 AM
Good point, John. But bear in mind that the scene on the rope bridge was filmed separately from the rest of the scene after he cuts it. So the hat may not be the same in the subsequent shots (after the cut). I'll have to fire that one up on the DVD player and look. It's been a while since I've seen that sequence in it's entirety.

bendingoak
08-09-2010, 03:31 AM
I have been looking at the TOD hat a lot lately trying to come up with some standard specs for a TOD offerings. The bow gave it away for me. Blu Ray will help out greatly.

Chewbacca Jones
08-10-2010, 05:50 AM
What keeps me forever uncertain about this hat is that ribbons can be changed, bows replaced, and any number of things could have happened to the hat between films. Thus, it seems impossible to say for sure. Also, given the many different hats used in ToD, I can honestly say; Oak, you've got your work cut out for you! ???

Darctic_jones
08-10-2010, 10:52 AM
I have just read the hat post here by Dr. Jones, which suggested that possibly one of the hats used in Temple of Doom were actually also used in Last Crusade. A while ago, I noticed something interesting about the fedora on the rope bridge scene and had posted this on COW. ;)

If you take a look at this picture, notice the bash on the back of the fedora.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3473003261_ee70a3398d.jpg?v=0

This reminded me of the scene from Raiders where the truck blows up and a bash that I had put into my own AB...

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/192.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3473918424_2bd0a48100.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3473918408_8ce95dde51.jpg?v=0

We all know that the Raiders fedora had a very high crown and quite a wide brim, and I know that it's probably nothing, but I thought I would share it with you, nonetheless. ;D

Now, I know that this is a long shot, but could this actually be one of the hats from Raiders?


NOPE, that hat is used elsewhere in T.O.D though
http://www.screenused.com/images/templedoom/INDIANAJONES_TOD_169-44overlay.jpg
http://www.screenused.com/images/templedoom/INDIANAJONES_TOD_169-1overlay.jpg
http://www.screenused.com/images/templedoom/IndyFedora3.jpg

Chewbacca Jones
08-10-2010, 03:07 PM
To be honest, those don't look like the same hat that Canyon posted to me, Darctic. The ones you posted appear to have a slightly narrower and more curled brim, as well as more taper. Canyon's still is a little fuzzy, but it also looks like the ribbon on that one conforms to the shape of the hat better than the one you posted. I'll have to check the movie to get a better look.

bendingoak
08-10-2010, 07:36 PM
What keeps me forever uncertain about this hat is that ribbons can be changed, bows replaced, and any number of things could have happened to the hat between films. Thus, it seems impossible to say for sure. Also, given the many different hats used in ToD, I can honestly say; Oak, you've got your work cut out for you! ???


You are correct that it's going to very, very hard nailing down a standard specs to use for a TOD hat but I don't very much that they took a raider hat and re worked it to look like the temple hat. That's not logical. Movie people just grab a new one from the stack of hats. That's why they buy so many. The ribbon work don't match neither does the block shape.

John

crismans
08-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Really, and this thought isn't too popular in certain quarters, I think Nadoolman had a certain look that she was going for in the first movie. I'm not throwing off on Powell in any form, but maybe that a certain look wasn't as important to him, or maybe, as I think Steve has suggested, those making the decisions didn't like the look of the Raiders and wanted something else. Maybe it was just easier/more convenient to grab a Poet rather than have something more distinct.

The problem is, I'm afraid a lot of these answers have been lost to time.

bendingoak
08-10-2010, 09:03 PM
Really, and this thought isn't too popular in certain quarters, I think Nadoolman had a certain look that she was going for in the first movie. I'm not throwing off on Powell in any form, but maybe that a certain look wasn't as important to him, or maybe, as I think Steve has suggested, those making the decisions didn't like the look of the Raiders and wanted something else. Maybe it was just easier/more convenient to grab a Poet rather than have something more distinct.

The problem is, I'm afraid a lot of these answers have been lost to time.


I think ir might have to do with Swales. I think when two came around Landis was gone and he just handed off the stock poet. Powell just creased and distressed it.

Chewbacca Jones
08-11-2010, 01:23 AM
Based on a few different accounts that I've read and heard (including DN), my brain has sorted out (with no guarantee of accuracy) that Deb N may not have actually had direct contact with the Raiders hat that we know and love. Deb's memory, even with non-Indy accounts, are often inaccurate. Sometimes laughably so. I think the general look was hers, and the specifics came by different routes.

Be that true or not, I think everyone was after something different in ToD, and for different reasons.

John, while the ribbon work may never be a point that convinces me, block shape could get me there. I just wonder if a poorly stored Raiders leftover could possibly BECOME that bridge hat, and then inspire the rest of the ToD hats from there. You're the hat guy, so... could a Raiders be neglected into a ToD? (Setting aside the ribbon issue for the moment).

crismans
08-11-2010, 01:45 AM
Based on a few different accounts that I've read and heard (including DN), my brain has sorted out (with no guarantee of accuracy) that Deb N may not have actually had direct contact with the Raiders hat that we know and love. Deb's memory, even with non-Indy accounts, are often inaccurate. Sometimes laughably so. I think the general look was hers, and the specifics came by different routes.

Could you give some examples, Chewie? This isn't a challenge AT ALL. I'm actually very interested to know some of the "misdirection" she's given. The reason is we have so few direct inroads to the people who were there when it comes to the gear. Sure, there are all sorts of interviews and so on when it comes to the movies themselves, but not so with the gear. That's one reason I'm so loathe to disregard the costume designer for the first movie.

bendingoak
08-11-2010, 02:46 AM
I don't know about her account being different. She has always said the same things when it came to key areas. I take her word over most other because I have her three interviews about the costume and have keyed into things that she states about the hat that I myself and Steve Delk pick up that most don't. I have very little doubt that she is the key behind the look.

I would like to see the proof of her not being part of the costume before I stop taking her word.

I can't put the ribbon aside because it's part of the hat and it's one of the key elements on determining what hat it is. The gentlemens bow ( what everyone calls the flying V). For the life of me never like the term flying V. Don't know who started it but it's silly. Anyway, the Raiders hat was bespoke by Swales for the movie. The hats you got from Swales looked like this. The modern HJ's have the same bow work as the Temple and LC. To me that tells me they used stock HJs for these two movies. Now there is stated somewhere that there is one Stetson based off of a HJ. this
could explain why the crown height jumps around a bit, same with LC.

I don't see the logic to take a left over Raiders and take the ribbon off just to make it look like the TOD hat. Would the studio rework the ribbon? then it wouldn't look like the others. That's the tell. You can't leave it out. The other thought is why would George and Steve want that hat reworked when they reportedly never liked the Raiders hat. It's doesn't make sence.

besides all that the block shape looks all wrong. The center dent you and canyon speak of I can put in any hat no matter the block shape. That's not a tell. It's a good catch but I don't see the anything on both those hats to piont me in the direction that it's the same. It's a good catch but I would need more that the top crease going out of wack the same way to convince me it's the same hat.

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 02:51 AM
I can say one thing - the centre dent is proof positive that Ford had the same skull across the first 3 movies! :)

Any chance you could post those interviews up here, or link to them, John? One of the things that would be collectively beneficial to members is access to these first hand accounts.

Chewbacca Jones
08-11-2010, 04:46 AM
I would like to see the proof of her not being part of the costume before I stop taking her word.

Fair enough. I'm trying to find some of what I've bumped into in the past, but if anyone else remembers those inconsistencies, please chime in.


the Raiders hat was bespoke by Swales for the movie. The hats you got from Swales looked like this. The modern HJ's have the same bow work as the Temple and LC. To me that tells me they used stock HJs for these two movies.

Now, this sounds compelling. I did not know that the Temple and LC ribbon work was the same.


I don't see the logic to take a left over Raiders and take the ribbon off just to make it look like the TOD hat. Would the studio rework the ribbon? then it wouldn't look like the others. That's the tell. You can't leave it out. The other thought is why would George and Steve want that hat reworked when they reportedly never liked the Raiders hat. It's doesn't make sence.

I didn't mean reworked. I meant, what if they had a Raiders hat that had tapered some and the ribbon had fallen off or been damaged in storage? But, if this specific hat has the stock HJ ribbon work, it's unlikely. If it differs, though, then maybe you see where I'm coming from? It needles at me because there is one hat in ToD that is taller and less tapered than every other hat in the film.

Also, I thought George and Steven mainly disliked the creasing and the felt. I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

I do see your point, though.



Could you give some examples... I'm actually very interested to know some of the "misdirection" she's given.

Working on it. I have a very bad memory, so I'm trying to back track at least one example. The one I most want to find is a vague blip in my mind now; she's talking about what she did with some dress in another movie, with a photo of the very dress being shown on screen, in a movie still, and it's not what she's describing. It's driving me nuts that I can't remember where I saw that, because that interview really shook my confidence in her word more than any other. :-[

If I find it, I'll let you know.

bendingoak
08-11-2010, 06:22 AM
for the ribbon work, all you have to do is look at both movies. The ToD hats, have one thing in common. The bow, thats why I don't think it was a Raiders hat but a stock poet.


I would like to see the interview with the dress you speak of because all the different interviews I have seen when it comes to the costume. Some things are slightly different but the key things are the same. Means she not memorized Her answers and answer questions fresh. Another reason I trust her over most anyone. I keep hearing about her "big" inconsistencies but no one ever states any of them????? Please CJ, don't take this as a attack or directed at you on you buddy but I just don't swallow any of the jive that has been feed to me from places around the www without proof.


As for the interview, I have 3 somewhere but have no idea how to get them here.

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 06:26 AM
Check out Toht's hat in Raiders - I just noticed in passing that it's block looks very ToD / Poet-ish. (Maybe old news?)

jasonalun
08-11-2010, 01:09 PM
for the ribbon work, all you have to do is look at both movies. The ToD hats, have one thing in common. The bow, thats why I don't think it was a Raiders hat but a stock poet.


I would like to see the interview with the dress you speak of because all the different interviews I have seen when it comes to the costume. Some things are slightly different but the key things are the same. Means she not memorized Her answers and answer questions fresh. Another reason I trust her over most anyone. I keep hearing about her "big" inconsistencies but no one ever states any of them????? Please CJ, don't take this as a attack or directed at you on you buddy but I just don't swallow any of the jive that has been feed to me from places around the www without proof.


As for the interview, I have 3 somewhere but have no idea how to get them here.




Thank you for saying that John. I am really fed up with the Deborah Nadoolman bashing from certain places. Like you said I haven't seen any proof that something she's said was flat wrong. Her accounts differ from Richard Swales but they aren't irreconcilable.

bendingoak
08-11-2010, 05:37 PM
I seek proof in all thing in my life. Heck, I don't buy the fact I'm going to die one day. When I do die then I'll know it's true.

Chewbacca Jones
08-11-2010, 06:32 PM
I would like to see the interview with the dress you speak of because all the different interviews I have seen when it comes to the costume. Some things are slightly different but the key things are the same. Means she not memorized Her answers and answer questions fresh. Another reason I trust her over most anyone. I keep hearing about her "big" inconsistencies but no one ever states any of them????? Please CJ, don't take this as a attack or directed at you on you buddy but I just don't swallow any of the jive that has been feed to me from places around the www without proof.


No sweat. My bad memory often forces me to be the guy who can't back himself up, but I'm hunting. I have watched every interview I own in the last two days, and tried internet searches. Can't find the stuff I'm looking for. I know at least one was in print, and at least one was video. Maybe it was on that dreadful Inyfans dvd. :question:

To be clear, I don't think Deb has ever been intentionally misleading. I have just found reason to think her memory is as bad as mine! :D

RCSignals
08-11-2010, 07:52 PM
In the subject of Nadoolman interviews I said once that her story was actually quite consistent. I was somewhat vilified for the statement, but no evidence to show Nadoolman actually being inconsistent was ever put forward.

There are a few transcribed/written interviews posted around the Internet.

crismans
08-11-2010, 08:13 PM
To be clear, I don't think Deb has ever been intentionally misleading. I have just found reason to think her memory is as bad as mine! Cheesy

Completely understood, and to reiterate, I'm not even suggesting that she hasn't been inconsistent. But I think there has been a lot of "This is the way it was" without ANY corroboration yet the statement is taken as fact (this isn't directed at you in any way CJ!). I'm not even saying that the statement couldn't be fact, but let's see some evidence before we just accept it. Especially concerning first person accounts from those we know were involved in the process.

bendingoak
08-11-2010, 08:43 PM
To be clear, I don't think Deb has ever been intentionally misleading. I have just found reason to think her memory is as bad as mine! Cheesy

Completely understood, and to reiterate, I'm not even suggesting that she hasn't been inconsistent. But I think there has been a lot of "This is the way it was" without ANY corroboration yet the statement is taken as fact (this isn't directed at you in any way CJ!). I'm not even saying that the statement couldn't be fact, but let's see some evidence before we just accept it. Especially concerning first person accounts from those we know were involved in the process.



Wow, look what we have here. A logical man. Thank you very much. That's all I ever asked people of. Thank you chris.

crismans
08-11-2010, 10:38 PM
You're very welcome! But, take it from me, logic doesn't get you too far sometimes! :D

neutronbomb
08-12-2010, 07:27 PM
I just wanted ask clarification on the Bespoke from the Raiders from Swales. Did Swales take the hat body and do the whole deal himself. Block, ribbon, dimensional cut. The whole deal.

jasonalun
08-12-2010, 07:30 PM
nb, from the (admittedly second-hand) accounts I've read of Swales statements over the years, Swales himself blocked, put them together, and cut the dimentional brim. He may have had someone in his shop help with some of the process (blocking maybe?), but he most definitely cut the brims himself. It has been said he did it by eye with a sweep of a razor blade! ???

Gunslinger
08-14-2010, 10:38 AM
As for the interview, I have 3 somewhere but have no idea how to get them here.


Sorry John, I missed this. Are they hard copies or electronic?

Canyon
08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Guys, sorry that I have not replied until now. It's great to see that my thread is doing so well, and thank you all for your theories and replies thus far. ;)


No sweat. My bad memory often forces me to be the guy who can't back himself up, but I'm hunting. I have watched every interview I own in the last two days, and tried internet searches. Can't find the stuff I'm looking for. I know at least one was in print, and at least one was video. Maybe it was on that dreadful Inyfans dvd. :question:

Honey, could it be that you saw this on the Special Editioin of the Coming to America DVD that you bought a while ago? Amazon.com lists an extra with regards to the costumes. ;) Also, check out the pictures of the dress at the top of this page. Can you remember if its the same one or not? http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0618966/

bendingoak
08-14-2010, 06:02 PM
As for the interview, I have 3 somewhere but have no idea how to get them here.


Sorry John, I missed this. Are they hard copies or electronic?


Hard.

Chewbacca Jones
08-14-2010, 09:14 PM
Honey, could it be that you saw this on the Special Editioin of the Coming to America DVD that you bought a while ago?


No luck. I recognized the interview right away as something I had seen, and I was hopeful. But that wasn't it.
I even rented that Indyfans thing on-line, but it wasn't in there. There were additional extras on the physical dvd, but they weren't part of the rental. I have a feeling one of the examples I want is on there, but my local video place closed down, and I have not seen another copy since then. :(

Having failed to find the evidence that I previously beheld, I have no choice to bow out of my assertions. At least until I find that stuff again. I have wasted more time than I possess searching, and it's driving me nuts. But I have to pull the plug before I start neglecting more important endeavors. Sorry everyone.

bendingoak
08-14-2010, 10:25 PM
Is it possible it you read this 2nd hand???? Because I have never seen a interview with her that where she was inconsistent.

Chewbacca Jones
08-15-2010, 03:27 AM
Well, I know that SOME of what I'm talking about I read. So, it's possible that it was second hand and I just forgot. But I know that I have seen at least one such interview on video with my own eyes, and at least one article on the web from shortly after CS came out (that's probably deleted by now) that had some eyebrow raisers.

And it's not the usual stuff she says that's in question. The old story we have (available on the Indy DVD extras) has always been the same from her. Sometimes word-for-word (I imagine it's a story she is asked to tell often). There were additional details that didn't add up. Some day, if I stumble onto it, I will make a point of posting about.

This is why I didn't major in History. No head for keeping this stuff straight.

RCSignals
08-15-2010, 03:31 AM
Hopefully you'll find it

bendingoak
08-15-2010, 03:52 AM
I don't doubt you my friend it's just that I keep hearing this about D.L. Not being consistent but no one ever throws it down on the table. So, I hope you can understand why I I still take her word.

Chewbacca Jones
08-15-2010, 04:58 AM
I hope you can understand why I I still take her word.


Absolutely, my friend.

Fedora
09-01-2010, 02:04 PM
Really, and this thought isn't too popular in certain quarters, I think Nadoolman had a certain look that she was going for in the first movie. I'm not throwing off on Powell in any form, but maybe that a certain look wasn't as important to him, or maybe, as I think Steve has suggested, those making the decisions didn't like the look of the Raiders and wanted something else. Maybe it was just easier/more convenient to grab a Poet rather than have something more distinct.

The problem is, I'm afraid a lot of these answers have been lost to time.


I think ir might have to do with Swales. I think when two came around Landis was gone and he just handed off the stock poet. Powell just creased and distressed it.



I agree with my friend John. I think Swales just suppled Powell with an off the shelf factory made stock Poet,and trimmed the brim perhaps. For me, I see a vast difference in block shape between the Raiders fedora and the TOD bridge fedora. The bridge fedora has an obvious tapered block shape, and the dome looks different from the Raiders fedora. But just an opinion.

What really sets the Raiders apart, is the bow work on the Raiders fedora compared to TOD and TLC. And if you look at many of the LC hats, the top of the ribbon is not tight against the crown, per the Raiders fedora. This always bugged me, as it indicates sloppy ribbon installation, OR, the crown above the top of the ribbon shrunk up, which is easy to imagine given that few later HJs were very stable, unlike the Raiders fedora which does appear to be a much more stable(better) felt. Fedora

Fedora
09-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Based on a few different accounts that I've read and heard (including DN), my brain has sorted out (with no guarantee of accuracy) that Deb N may not have actually had direct contact with the Raiders hat that we know and love. Deb's memory, even with non-Indy accounts, are often inaccurate. Sometimes laughably so. I think the general look was hers, and the specifics came by different routes.

Be that true or not, I think everyone was after something different in ToD, and for different reasons.

John, while the ribbon work may never be a point that convinces me, block shape could get me there. I just wonder if a poorly stored Raiders leftover could possibly BECOME that bridge hat, and then inspire the rest of the ToD hats from there. You're the hat guy, so... could a Raiders be neglected into a ToD? (Setting aside the ribbon issue for the moment).


What has interested me in regards to the Raider fedora is that D.N. screwed up(if you believe one account we are familiar with) and the costume HAD to be returned to B and N, since they were leased from them. Now, if this also included the hat I always wondered how at least one hat was not returned but kept and ended up in Screen Used collection. And that would explain why we never saw what looked like a Raiders fedora in the Lucas Warehouse video that some here will recall. We saw hats in that video that looked to be TOD and LC hats. The Raider fedora was mysteriously absent.

And I always wondered why there was no continuity in hat creases from Raiders to TOD. Almost like Tony Powell never even looked at the Raiders fedora when working on the TOD hat. But it could be something really personal, like Spielberg did not want D. N's Raiders fedora to be copied, for reasons we may not understand. But something did happen, as you can tell by comparing those hats. And perhaps Tony just wanted to put his own touch on the hats he was responsible for in TOD and LC and that might explain the departure from the unusual Raiders fedora. While Bernie was concerned with continuity with LC for CS, in so far as creases go, Tony was not concerned with continuity, which makes no sense, unless something else was going on in regards to D.N. We will never know, probably.

jasonalun
09-01-2010, 02:36 PM
I don't hold any stock in the "Deb wasn't involved much in the creation of the hat" theory, since no documenting evidence was offered to support it, just a story told by someone who wasn't there. I've read all of Deborah's accounts and I so far fail to find any direct contradictions. If someone can point them out by pasting two of her interview quotes together, I'd be happy to acknowledge it, but so far I've never seen anyone do that. Her account and Swales need to be reconciled, but that could easily be done by various means.

I think you are right on, Steve (btw good to see you here!) about Swales just handing Powell and off-the-shelf Poet and trimming the brim. I think he custom-made all the Raiders hats and, like you no doubt thought toward the end with KOTCS, "this is crazy!" and wised up the next time around and gave them factory hats to use.

edited for spelling

jasonalun
09-01-2010, 02:39 PM
I've also wondered many a time what Anthony Powell was thinking (not meaning to criticize) when he creased the TOD hat. It is such a direct departure and I can't believe he wasn't aware of the Raiders look. He must have had some purpose in mind and I'd love to hear him explain what it was.

edited for wording

Fedora
09-01-2010, 03:32 PM
I've also wondered many a time what Anthony Powell was thinking (not meaning to criticize) when he creased the TOD hat. It is such a direct departure and I can't believe he wasn't aware of the Raiders look. He must have had some purpose in mind but I'd love to hear him explain what it was.


I would love to hear his explanation as well. And hopefully that question will not be asked in this manner....."Mr. Powell, many of us ROTLA fans have always wondered WHY you screwed up Indy's fedora in TOD and TLC? " :D Instead of, "Mr. Powell, why was there a lack of contiuity between the ROTLA hats and the other later films in the way they were creased?"

Indiana Blooze
09-01-2010, 05:38 PM
....."Mr. Powell, many of us ROTLA fans have always wondered WHY you screwed up Indy's fedora in TOD and TLC? " :D


That would be direct and to the point :laugh: >:D :angel:

Todd
09-01-2010, 07:00 PM
It's probably as simple as this: he thought it looked better.

neutronbomb
09-01-2010, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure I understand something about the Mr. Swales ROTLA story. Just to be clear when Raiders was made not only did he carry stock poets or whatever they were called at the time (H&J hats?), but he also had a block and custom built hats also?

I guess for me I'm just trying to sort out what is pretty much known from what is speculation. Did he have an operation where he took a stock H&J, took it apart, reblocked it, and put it back together or did he get all the raw materials that were used in H&J hats and build it from scratch? To what, look like at stock H&J?

RCSignals
09-01-2010, 07:56 PM
............

And I always wondered why there was no continuity in hat creases from Raiders to TOD. Almost like Tony Powell never even looked at the Raiders fedora when working on the TOD hat. But it could be something really personal, like Spielberg did not want D. N's Raiders fedora to be copied, for reasons we may not understand. But something did happen, as you can tell by comparing those hats. And perhaps Tony just wanted to put his own touch on the hats he was responsible for in TOD and LC and that might explain the departure from the unusual Raiders fedora. While Bernie was concerned with continuity with LC for CS, in so far as creases go, Tony was not concerned with continuity, which makes no sense, unless something else was going on in regards to D.N. We will never know, probably.


I have no idea if Antony Powell even considered this when costume designing for Temple of Doom, but as far as continuity, Temple of Doom was a prequel to Raiders.
Maybe he just wanted everything to be 'that much different' to separate it from what was supposed to be later in time Raiders?

but really I'm not entirely sure the Temple of Doom audience caught on right away that ToD predated Raiders in story.

jasonalun
09-01-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm not sure I understand something about the Mr. Swales ROTLA story. Just to be clear when Raiders was made not only did he carry stock poets or whatever they were called at the time (H&J hats?), but he also had a block and custom built hats also?

I guess for me I'm just trying to sort out what is pretty much known from what is speculation. Did he have an operation where he took a stock H&J, took it apart, reblocked it, and put it back together or did he get all the raw materials that were used in H&J hats and build it from scratch? To what, look like at stock H&J?


My understanding is that hatters (at least the old style kind like Swales) always had "in-house" blocks to be able to re-block customer hats on the spot (or at least in-shop) and not have to send them to a factory. They usually carried blocks of most, or I presume as many as they reasonably could given their shop space, of the popular hats of the day or kinds of hats they sold. So I would imagine that the likely scenario for Raiders was after Swales had explained or shown to him how the hat was to look(however that whole thing came down), he got the basic hat parts from the factory - hat body, sweat, hatband, liner, and blocked the hat on his in-shop block and put them together himself or with some help. Then he sent them to the production people. Steve can probably shed more light on this as much of what I related here came from one of Steve's posts elsewhere a long time ago.

bendingoak
09-01-2010, 08:08 PM
I'm not sure I understand something about the Mr. Swales ROTLA story. Just to be clear when Raiders was made not only did he carry stock poets or whatever they were called at the time (H&J hats?), but he also had a block and custom built hats also?

I guess for me I'm just trying to sort out what is pretty much known from what is speculation. Did he have an operation where he took a stock H&J, took it apart, reblocked it, and put it back together or did he get all the raw materials that were used in H&J hats and build it from scratch? To what, look like at stock H&J?


That's hard to say. I have my doubts if we will ever know. All I can put together is we will never get a Raiders hat from HJ because the Riaders hats were bespoke and the TOD and LC were stock hats. That's my understanding and the evidense is clear on screen for me.

Now, I'm not sure if he took raw materials and made them himself. Or he reblocked stock poets? Or just took the Specs from DN and had a factory make them for him. The stitches on the bow makes me believe that they were machine made. He could have done that at his shop or sent out??? I just don't know.

The TOD and LC block shape looks different than the Raiders and the bow work is exactly like the stock peopt as is the block shape.

jasonalun
09-01-2010, 08:13 PM
Well if they were bespoke hats then the factory didn't make them. I'm sure Swales had a sewing machine in the shop too, or he wouldn't have been able to repair or re-sweat worn out customer hats, as they used to do back in the day (and I don't think they did them by hand - too time consuming). They probably don't these days because hardly anyone repairs or services hats anymore, if you can even find a real hat shop. Guys like you John are pretty rare these days.

Kt Templar
09-01-2010, 08:27 PM
http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/history.html

http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/index.html

H-J rather then H&J.

The story goes is a hat was picked but needed tweaking so that part was done in the shop.

bendingoak
09-01-2010, 10:09 PM
Well if they were bespoke hats then the factory didn't make them. I'm sure Swales had a sewing machine in the shop too, or he wouldn't have been able to repair or re-sweat worn out customer hats, as they used to do back in the day (and I don't think they did them by hand - too time consuming). They probably don't these days because hardly anyone repairs or services hats anymore, if you can even find a real hat shop. Guys like you John are pretty rare these days.



I know there are very few that even think of sewing in a sweatband by hand. I myself like doing it by hand better than a sewing machine.

If I was going to guess on what happened. I would say they took stock stuff and re-blocked and sewn parts in. The sweats I couldn't begin to guess how they did that without seeing one first hand but the ribbon I'm think sewing machine based on where the two lower corner stitches are.

jasonalun
09-01-2010, 11:48 PM
Even hat factories have to employ seamstresses (or seamters! ;D) to sew on ribbons, do they not? I would think putting a ribbon on a hat is way too complex an operation for any machine to do.

RCSignals
09-02-2010, 01:20 AM
isn't there some kind of special tool for tacking ribbons on factory hats?

I'd think a sewing machine for sweat bands would be a special designed piece of sewing equipment. Not just the standard flat base or open arm machine.

jasonalun
09-02-2010, 02:02 AM
There are definitely special sewing machines for sweatbands http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/107_1_2.pdf. But that's just a matter of sewing around in a circle. Putting a bow in a ribbon and sewing that on a hat is a little beyond even modern robots capability, at least from what I know. I could be wrong though.

bendingoak
09-02-2010, 02:09 AM
There are definitely special sewing machines for sweatbands http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/107_1_2.pdf. But that's just a matter of sewing around in a circle. Putting a bow in a ribbon and sewing that on a hat is a little beyond even modern robots capability, at least from what I know. I could be wrong though.



Sewing machines can and do put on ribbon. There even a sewing machine for a liner. The Henry AB is sew in using a sewing machine.
The way the bow on the raiders hat. Lower left and lower right corners make me think it was done by machine.

RCSignals
09-02-2010, 02:13 AM
something tells me that sweat band sewing machine wouldn't be too easy to come by

bendingoak
09-02-2010, 01:50 PM
something tells me that sweat band sewing machine wouldn't be too easy to come by


Then, not so hard. Now a little bit harder but will cost a lot.

bendingoak
09-02-2010, 01:51 PM
One more thing. That's not the reason I don't use them.

Fedora
09-02-2010, 02:48 PM
I'm not sure I understand something about the Mr. Swales ROTLA story. Just to be clear when Raiders was made not only did he carry stock poets or whatever they were called at the time (H&J hats?), but he also had a block and custom built hats also?

I guess for me I'm just trying to sort out what is pretty much known from what is speculation. Did he have an operation where he took a stock H&J, took it apart, reblocked it, and put it back together or did he get all the raw materials that were used in H&J hats and build it from scratch? To what, look like at stock H&J?


My understanding is that hatters (at least the old style kind like Swales) always had "in-house" blocks to be able to re-block customer hats on the spot (or at least in-shop) and not have to send them to a factory. They usually carried blocks of most, or I presume as many as they reasonably could given their shop space, of the popular hats of the day or kinds of hats they sold. So I would imagine that the likely scenario for Raiders was after Swales had explained or shown to him how the hat was to look(however that whole thing came down), he got the basic hat parts from the factory - hat body, sweat, hatband, liner, and blocked the hat on his in-shop block and put them together himself or with some help. Then he sent them to the production people. Steve can probably shed more light on this as much of what I related here came from one of Steve's posts elsewhere a long time ago.


That is my understanding as well. Remember, it was common for hat shops and even dry cleaners to offer refurb/cleaning/reblock services. That Swales would still have the tools and stuff needed to do these jobs in house is probably correct.

We know D.N. said that when she went into the shop, she only saw Italian styled fedoras, that could not be used and picked a wide brim non fedora hat to use to arrive at what she was after. What happened after that is anyones guess. But knowing somewhat how it works, Swales probably placed an order for say a number of Poets, and then changed them to match the prototype made from the Aussie type of hat. Remember she said she only had one hat to start the filming with, and took that in her personal luggage to France. Apparently Swales only had one ready at that time, or so it would seem.

I don't know how ribbons are tacked on today, at factories, but my old Stetson Book shows hundreds of women, hand sewing on ribbons and bows, as well as liners. Seems like if a machine could have done this back then, Stetson would have used them as they did mass produce their hats, or most of them anyways. But honestly, I just don't know.

John do you have a screen grab of the Raiders fedora that shows the ribbon retaining stitches as farther up on the ribbon like the LC hat shows? I can see those in the LC hat, but don't recall seeing them on the Raiders hat. But my memory is horrible. I do recall (I think) seeing the higher stitches on the hat Screenused owns though. And I can't recall seeing stitches on the SOC hat, but the definition of the film on my dvd may not have picked them up.

Canyon
09-02-2010, 03:36 PM
Wow! This thread really is growing! ;D

Steve, great to see you here. Thanks so much for offering your opinion to my thread. (John, I appreciate your professional opinion, also). ;) Check out this thread... http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=468.0

Gunslinger
09-02-2010, 10:30 PM
Hi Steve. I do - there are a bunch of shots that show each of the tacks.

bendingoak
09-03-2010, 05:25 AM
Yes Steve I have screen grabs showing the stitches that i speak i just have to dig them up. Give me a day or two.

Chewbacca Jones
09-06-2010, 03:38 AM
I'm not sure I understand something about the Mr. Swales ROTLA story. Just to be clear when Raiders was made not only did he carry stock poets or whatever they were called at the time (H&J hats?), but he also had a block and custom built hats also?

I guess for me I'm just trying to sort out what is pretty much known from what is speculation. Did he have an operation where he took a stock H&J, took it apart, reblocked it, and put it back together or did he get all the raw materials that were used in H&J hats and build it from scratch? To what, look like at stock H&J?


Hatters in the UK, it seems, held onto some "traditions" longer than other. In fact, right now you can get some serious customizing done on a Christy's if you ask the right vendor nicely. Different blocks aren't so available, but I turned an Adventurer (chosen for the block shape) into a totally different animal. If I could get that from Christy's today, I imagine Swales could have put together what Deb asked for with little trouble. The aussie, according to her, was really just used as a mock up, so Swales clearly made at least one hat before she jetted off to the set.