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Gunslinger
01-17-2011, 05:53 AM
I have monkey arms. But I didn't think Ford did, until I came across an old grab and overlaid it. Notice every point intersects perfectly. WTF!?

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Temple-Back-Length-on-159-888-1.jpg

Weston
01-17-2011, 06:50 AM
I'm going to level with you Gunslinger; that doesn't look right to me. Not as a 1 to 1 comparison. I looks like the original camera angle is coming down at the shoulder, and yours look leveled, if not angled up a bit. Your jacket yolk, if not the entire shoulder is below the red line, but if the line was extended, HF's would be well above. HF's jacket hem at the left side is down, your's is up. All round, I don't think this one works.

Wow, way Wayyyy to much red wine for me on a Sunday night! But hey, this is still fun! But yeah, I think he has narrow shoulders, but long arms, hence the devil of a time most of us have at getting the look right.

Weston

Gunslinger
01-17-2011, 07:11 AM
Spoilsport! :D

In all seriousness though, I don't think the angle is off enough to really mess with the proportions that much.

Ford is definitely not narrow shouldered though. Mine are quite broad and I had to knock about 1/4 inch off the full width the Ford size because it's so damn wide.

Maybe we just need to have a Fortune & Glory screengrab posedown competition, Zoolander-style! :banllama:

djd
01-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Yeah, Ford has small shoulders and chest.... Unless you happen to be that build the Indy jacket tends to look rather 'square' on most of us :( I suspect it needs to be longer on the body to make it look more like fords in proportions? My jackets always look too short on me , despite the fact they're not, because I have wide shoulders and chest. That's my excuse ;)

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
01-17-2011, 12:15 PM
Small? Narrow? Weren't HF's shoulder and chest measurements for Raiders were over 22" and 25"...? I would swim in his jacket and I too have a broad chest and shoulders. (maybe I don't? :D)

PLATON
01-17-2011, 01:13 PM
I don't think this is right.
You wear what? 44? and he wears 40?
You present the jackets having the same size,
If HF has monkey arms then he has a big head too, because it appears larger than yours in that photo comparison.

Generally, it is very hard to make this kind of comparisons. Enlarge or decrease these photos by 1-2% and there is huge difference. Those who played with that know what I mean.

And I don't think he has monkey arms.

Mac
01-17-2011, 02:47 PM
I would think the Noel Howard shirt would settle this. Ignore the red circle and observe the arm length on the tag (34 inches):

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/TODShirtJacket1.jpg

- Mac

djd
01-17-2011, 03:22 PM
Small? Narrow? Weren't HF's shoulder and chest measurements for Raiders were over 22" and 25"...? I would swim in his jacket and I too have a broad chest and shoulders. (maybe I don't? :D)


I think HF wears a 40 jacket? I'd be a 46 at about the same height and waist measurement as him. I'd say he's pretty narrow which makes the jacket hang off him in a way I could never replicate :(

neutronbomb
01-17-2011, 04:15 PM
Thanks for posting that comparison Gunslinger. I think it's a pretty rad comparison shot and really shows off how well your jacket matches to what we see on screen. I'd challenge Weston or Platon to give us that exact comparison shot with them wearing their jackets. That's a great screengrab of indy wearing The Main Hero Jacket. I like how the back flares out like the TN's are known for. I always find it interesting that people's perception of the Raiders jacket seems to be different than the way it presents overall on film. I read peoples overused comments to others on how that, "looks like HF handed it to you off his back." Really? do a comparison photo. ANY comparison photo. I laughed myself sick the other day when I read how our favorite jacket expert has maybe looked at the film once in the last five years. Some of us have discussed where the obvious ignorance regarding the jacket comes from in his stories. The one guy I know of over there who has really studied the jacket......it's too bad he's a sell out. Really, really sad actually.

That's a good screengrab you used, along with the Ravenbar one I posted in your jacket thread, where the arms appear to indeed be long and extend well below the bottom edge of the jacket. Though I disagree with Platon's overall post. I think a couple of the comments are worth addressing. Would you mind doing a pit-to-pit measurement on your jacket, including the leather that extends past the seam. Also, expanding on Mac's post, what sleeve length shirt do you typically wear. As I remember it from a couple of other threads, there are some outstanding questions regarding that particular shirt, but assuming the sleeve length for HF is indeed 34 it would be interesting to know yours. I don't know if there are any photos of what the sleeves look like on Indy when he's wearing the shirt though. As far as increasing or decreasing by 1 or 2% the size of the screengrab you used of Indy, I don't think that's going to change the overall proportions of the jacket in the picture. However, your overlay system would be a terrific one to use on this. Then the whole 1 or 2% argument doesn't apply.

Mac
01-17-2011, 04:35 PM
Per Asiana Jones (thread from elsewhere, copied & re-posted here at F&G), measurements for the #000/888 Nowak Raiders prototype:



#000/888 Measurements that I took:
Front Flap w/ Collar Stand vertically from bottom to top: 23"
Shoulder from sleeve seam to collar seam: ~7"
Sleeves from cuff to sleeve seam: between 25 1/2" to 25 3/4"
Back vertical length from Collar Stand to Lower back panel: 23"
Chest width: 22 1/2"
Waist width: 21 1/2"
Pockets: 8" x 6.5"

- Mac

Weston
01-17-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm just razzing Gunslinger a bit, not knocking his dedication and attention to detail at all. I'll take a pass on that challenge neutronbomb! I wouldn't even come close.

That said, I still think HF's knuckles manage to clear the floor by a healthy distance. ;)

Weston

Gunslinger
01-17-2011, 08:04 PM
No problem Weston, I wasn't curled up in a fetal position or anything! (Though I WOULD like to suggest the posedown competition to Admin as a possible next competition!)

It's going to be hard to do a comparison, even knowing Ford's shirt size, as I'm taller than him at 6'1". We've had reliable reports he's (currently) about 5'11" or so. I'm with Platon on the whole need to add proportion thing.

But in any event, my shirt measurement is 35".

Here are my jacket measurements:
A->B Front Wind Flap 24.5”
C->D Chest Across 24”
E->F Bottom Across 22”
I->J Back Height 24.5”
K->L Back Across 21”
M->N Sleeve Length 26”

How would the 34" arms scale if Ford was close to 5'11" in Raiders / ToD era? Don't know. But bringing the discussion back to the old arguments about length, the 000/888 jacket's body is 23" long, and it is the same length on him as mine is on me, both in where it hits our arses, and compared to the cuff of the sleeves. In other words, chest aside, our proportions look very similar - I know my supposedly "Ford sized" Todds shirt fit me perfectly until the sleeves shrunk in the wash - so maybe something IS going on with the monkey arms.

djd
01-17-2011, 08:18 PM
:D

Gunslinger
01-17-2011, 08:25 PM
I'm tellin' ya Derek, he missed his calling - should have starred in the "Inspector Gadget" movie!

djd
01-17-2011, 08:38 PM
A poor movie but still a better choice than most of those he's made :)

RCSignals
01-17-2011, 11:39 PM
A 34" shirt sleeve measurement is I think a little longer than average. We don't know though if his shirts were tailor made or exactly what point on his wrist they were measured to.
Asiana's measurements are good but not exact. The sleeves were closer to 26" and for the CS jacket were 26".
So I think Harrison Ford has long arms but not necessarily freakishly long arms, like Gunslinger's :poke:

TheExit148
01-18-2011, 12:55 AM
I think that the Raiders jacket had longer arms, but look at the scene when HF is above the Ark chamber with his arm up, and the scene where he is hanging off the truck grill, the arms come up huge!

And you think you have long arms... try 26.5" sleeve length! Thats what my surrogates jacket hits and it could use another .25"! :D My next Raiders jacket is 24" front and back length with 26.5" arm length!

neutronbomb
01-18-2011, 02:47 PM
I was in Tony's shop picking up the last of my ESSL leather batch to have on hand for repair work if necessary the last week of October last year. I spent a few hours double and then double, double, and then triple, double checking some of the measurements I was interested in on the 000/888 (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=706.0) jacket. The below measurements are all that I took. Unfortunately, I wished I had measured the distance from the pocket front sides to the stormflap as I know people have expressed interest in those measurements. I don't know what method Asiana Jones used to measure the pockets, but for sure 100% no doubt period, if you lift the pocket flap and measure just the pocket itself you get 6 1/2" wide and 7 1/2" high. There is absolutely no doubt that that is the measurement. I took it like a dozen times. Then made Riley. Then made the sewer. Then I redid it another dozen times. Same with the collar stand width. Anyway, from what I can see the chest across measurement of Gunslingers jacket is pretty close along with the sleeve length(s) to the 000/888 measurements.

Quick story from fall of 2009. My dad's ESSL jacket was in the helicopter.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Papasan%20and%20Ray%20Walker/_MG_1995.jpg

He wanted badly to run and get it and to show it to HF as any of us likely would, but knew it would be a total ass thing to do. But, this is more towards the height thing.

After 'Nam the next place my dad was stationed was in Pirmasens, Germany for a year. It was OSCOM headquarters which was the Atomic Support Command. Tons of helicopter pilots because that's what my dad did. The base was assigned a De Havilland Beaver Airplane for who knows why. Anyway the base commander sees my dad also has a commercial airplane license and has him assigned to fly the Beaver on "errands". About that time the Military decides to retire it's entire fleet of beavers to the "boneyard". The last Beaver flown to the boneyard was by my dad.

The movie 6 days and 7 nights with HF had a Beaver in it that wrecked on the Island. After the movie HF bought the airplane for his own private use. He also owns a Bell 407 helicopter because a few years ago he was at the Bell helicopter school in Texas learning to fly it after he bought it and my dad was there the week after getting updated training in Bell 407's and the school was still talking about it.

Anyway, my dad was doing power line patrol in Idaho, with the supervisor for Rocky Mountain Power whose name is Ray.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Papasan/0226091328a.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Papasan/DSCN0413.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Papasan%20and%20Ray%20Walker/_MG_1886.jpg

Ray flew out to Tony's a month or so after he saw my dad's jackets and got an ESSL Indy jacket and an ESSL Arnold baseball style leather jacket. My dad also has an ESSL bomber jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Papasan%20and%20Ray%20Walker/_MG_1882.jpg

They land at the Idaho Falls airport to refuel and my dad looks over and sees this beautiful De Havilland Beaver sitting there looking brand spanking new. So of course he's totally interested and like everyone does at small airports walks over to the guy doing the pre-flight on it and getting ready to take off in it and says, "Hey, nice Beaver you got there." The guy turns around and it's HF.

My dad introduces himself they shake hands and bullshit about planes for a few minutes and how my dad flew one in Germany and talk shop.

He was like. I wasn't about to start talking to him about movies and Indy and our jackets and shit. We just bs'd about his Beaver and stuff.

So there you have it. A conversation with HF about beavers. Who'd a thunk. My dad's currently 5'10" tall exactly. He said HF and him were exactly the same height, eye to eye and it looks like he's about 170 or 175. Exact same height. He took note of it because he was so surprised at how "small" he looked.

It would have been great if my dad or Ray had been wearing their Indy Jacket. But, no. Anyway, it seems there's about a 1 1/2 to 2 inches difference between the back length of Gunslingers and 000/888. Would make sense with Gunslingers height compared to HF if he were about 5'11 back when he filmed ROTLA.


Here's the specs Riley and I measured for the 000 jacket:


1. Left Arm Seam to Yoke Seam: 1 3/4"
2. Right Arm Seam to Yoke Seam: 1 1/2"
3. Collar Stand Width: 1 1/8"
4. Pleat Depth: 1 1/8"
5. Left Yoke Edge Width: 2 3/4"
6. Right Yoke Edge Width: 2 7/8"
7. Middle Yoke Width: 4 3/4"
8. Left and Right Pocket: 6 1/2" wide X 7 1/2" high
9. Storm Flap Width: 1 5/8 to 1 3/4"
10. Back Length: 22 1/2"
(from bottom of collar stand)
11. Storm Flap Length: 23"
(from top of collar stand)
12. Armpit across chest: 23 1/2"
(material to material)
(not seam to seam)
(material extends just a bit past seams on both sides directly under armpit)
13. Waist across bottom of jacket: 20 1/2"
(material to material)
14. Shoulder: 7"
(shoulder seam to bottom of collar stand)
(measured in a direct line between the two)
15. Left Sleeve Length: 26 1/2"
16. Right Sleeve Length: 26"



No problem Weston, I wasn't curled up in a fetal position or anything! (Though I WOULD like to suggest the posedown competition to Admin as a possible next competition!)

It's going to be hard to do a comparison, even knowing Ford's shirt size, as I'm taller than him at 6'1". We've had reliable reports he's (currently) about 5'11" or so. I'm with Platon on the whole need to add proportion thing.

But in any event, my shirt measurement is 35".

Here are my jacket measurements:
A->B Front Wind Flap 24.5”
C->D Chest Across 24”
E->F Bottom Across 22”
I->J Back Height 24.5”
K->L Back Across 21”
M->N Sleeve Length 26”

How would the 34" arms scale if Ford was close to 5'11" in Raiders / ToD era? Don't know. But bringing the discussion back to the old arguments about length, the 000/888 jacket's body is 23" long, and it is the same length on him as mine is on me, both in where it hits our arses, and compared to the cuff of the sleeves. In other words, chest aside, our proportions look very similar - I know my supposedly "Ford sized" Todds shirt fit me perfectly until the sleeves shrunk in the wash - so maybe something IS going on with the monkey arms.




Per Asiana Jones (thread from elsewhere, copied & re-posted here at F&G), measurements for the #000/888 Nowak Raiders prototype:


#000/888 Measurements that I took:
Front Flap w/ Collar Stand vertically from bottom to top: 23"
Shoulder from sleeve seam to collar seam: ~7"
Sleeves from cuff to sleeve seam: between 25 1/2" to 25 3/4"
Back vertical length from Collar Stand to Lower back panel: 23"
Chest width: 22 1/2"
Waist width: 21 1/2"
Pockets: 8" x 6.5"

- Mac

RCSignals
01-18-2011, 05:41 PM
Just for the record, pockets are measured from the side seam, not the storm flap.

the pockets on the Raiders jacket are 2.25" from the side seam.

If you recall my post about my second Raider jacket from tony, the one with the ribby striations, it was made in exact size from the notes Tony made of the jacket he copied, which he said were more accurate than jacket #000.

Now there are jacket out there that tony mover te pockets toward the storm flap on request, but he always chuckled about that because as he would say, it is not how the pockets are positioned and makes them 'off'.

The back is 23"

collar stand is closer to 1" (1/8" is not an unreasonable 'tolerance'' for a jacket)

RCSignals
01-18-2011, 05:46 PM
I think that the Raiders jacket had longer arms, but look at the scene when HF is above the Ark chamber with his arm up, and the scene where he is hanging off the truck grill, the arms come up huge!

And you think you have long arms... try 26.5" sleeve length! Thats what my surrogates jacket hits and it could use another .25"! :D My next Raiders jacket is 24" front and back length with 26.5" arm length!


my surrogates jacket was made to the size of Bruce Willis jacket. The sleeves are 27" from shoulder to end of cuff.

They don't fall quite as long on me as on Willis. As Tony said, Willis likes his sleeves 'too long'. Other than the more modern cut of the jacket seen on Willis in the movie, those extra long sleeves are one of the 'tells' of why the jacket is NOT a vintage jacket, but Tony's work.

neutronbomb
01-18-2011, 06:12 PM
I'm glad you brought that up RCSignals. I'm getting the feeling I've started to scatter this thread a bit, but maybe it's still within reason of the Monkey Arms topic. 27" arm length for the Surrogates Bruce Willis specs. Looking at the Vintage aspect. What year theoretically would a "vintage" jacket be. 20's, 30's, 40's ?? What would need to be the scenario for a "vintage" jacket to have those length sleeves for the rest of the proportions/specs. That's an extra inch more than the 000/888 jacket and that's already quite a bit longer proportion wise to a standard size jacket. Right? Would a "vintage" need to have been custom to get that. I know California Sportswear or something has been speculated as being the source for a "vintage" jacket. It would be interesting to know if they did custom, etc. I think you're way more versed in the vintage jacket arena than I am, but from what you've described it sounds like the specs of the Bruce Willis jacket specs would most likely fall in the custom category. Also, the lining I think is an interesting aspect. I've seen some screengrabs of the movie jacket where the lining appears to be an exact match for the prototype jacket in Tony's shop. Those pics I took of the jacket in Tony's shop was like a year before the movie was released. It seemed like a pretty unique lining to me when I was looking at it. I would think it would be pretty difficult to get a match like that in the prototype jacket if the movie jacket was a 40's era or something vintage jacket.

Tony relayed to me the same basic information though that I think he did to you. He fit Bruce Willis personally. Worked with the studio to determine the type of leather they wanted. Developed that particular cowhide with the tannery. Used a process/treatment developed within the shop to treat the jacket, if I remember correctly Riley used this on Hatch's replica. Then the studio did it's work on the jacket to get it looking like it does in the movie. This of course doesn't match up with the pure speculation from best buds Rick and Patterson that Tony simply copied a "vintage" jacket. It appears that Patterson's latest statement of fact that Tony copied a "vintage" california sportswear jacket is nothing more than him chatting with Rick about the subject, reading a few posts, and then coming on and making a statement of fact as if it were based on his own research. Same basic thing as he's done over and over again with the Raiders jacket. Same shit. Different day.

RCSignals
01-18-2011, 07:02 PM
Bruce Willis and Tony were acquaintances. Tony has made many jackets for him and did work for him with the Planet Hollywood thing.
Bruce Willis specifically asked Tony to do his jacket for this movie, and what the jacket was to be was left up to Tony.
It was made specifically for Wilis and fit exactly the way Willis wanted it, extra long sleeves and all. So Custom to the extreme. what you see is Tony's work. Tony even did some of the distressing. He had 'proprietary' methods. If the wardrobe people 'added' to the distressing I do not know. Point is it was supposed to 'look' like a well worn and loved vintage jacket and it does.
The wonders of Hollywood.

Bruce Willis owns one of the jackets from Tony himself.

Real 'vintage' half belt jackets show up on eBay all the time. Funny how similar they all are even though from different manufacturers. By measurements given they are not too roomy in cut for the size, and sleeve lengths seem 'short' to me by modern jacket sizes. I don't recall seeing any in a 42 - 44 size having sleeves much longer than about 25".


edited to correct Planet Hollywood

TheExit148
01-18-2011, 07:42 PM
my surrogates jacket was made to the size of Bruce Willis jacket. The sleeves are 27" from shoulder to end of cuff.

They don't fall quite as long on me as on Willis. As Tony said, Willis likes his sleeves 'too long'. Other than the more modern cut of the jacket seen on Willis in the movie, those extra long sleeves are one of the 'tells' of why the jacket is NOT a vintage jacket, but Tony's work.
Touche! I didn't want my arm length to mirror the screen jacket, just to hit at the thumb knuckle, and thats 26.5" arm length.

Plus, there is no way a vintage jacket in a size 42 or 44 would have arm length of 27" like RC has stated. The longest I've ever saw was 25.5" on ebay. Looking at the jacket BW wears in Surrogates, to have the front and back length that size on him (long or short depending how you look at it) and sleeve length position on him, no way its vintage jacket. And if it was vintage piece, I would love to see it, or even one with those exact specs.