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jasonalun
07-24-2010, 08:47 PM
Hey after all the contradicting and confusing "info" that's been bandied about other places, I thought it would be nice if we could collect all the actual facts, or well-attested evidence, for what jackets were in Raiders, who made them, and what they were made out of, etc.

Here's my contribution to start things off:

From Gunslinger's screen shot analysis I gather that there were about 3 or maybe 4 jackets in the movie. It appears that the "hero" jacket, or the one in the majority of scenes (Temple, Well of Souls, non-stunt portions of Truck Chase, Flying Wing fight) was a Leather Concessionaires jacket made by Peter Botwright out of either "ribby lambskin" or "shrunken lamb," depending on whom you believe about the leather used (Peter Botwright or Tony Nowak). I think a lot of Tony (RIP), but if Peter made the jacket I think we can trust he knows what he made it out of. That's just my opinion, of course. I respect those who think Tony is right and it was shrunken lamb.
The other jacket not made by Peter was one made by Neil Cooper out of, if we are to believe Neil Cooper (through a third party) was made out of "oil-pulled calfskin." I presume the other jackets in various other scenes were extra Leather Concessionaire jackets or other Coopers (I've read somewhere that the truck stunt jacket was a Cooper but I don't know if that's true or not).

What do you all think? Corrections? Additions? Opinions?

RCSignals
07-24-2010, 09:03 PM
Well, there is some confusion.

The 'ribby' jacket was not the jacket Tony Nowak had to duplicate. (Seen in the Hawaii scenes) the jacket he had was lamb, as state by him, and was shrunken lamb, as determined by him. It however was from a different breed of sheep that had no or few signs of the 'ribbiness' effect.
The jacket Tony had was very very close in pattern to the other 'ribby' jacket, and probably cut from the same pattern which would indicate likely from the same maker/shop.
there is no question that Tony Nowak was absolutely positive the jacket he had was lamb, and lamb that had undergone the 'shrunken grain' process. He was a master at leather and had worked with leather doe over 30 years. For someone to suggest he didn't know how to identify the type of leather is beyond ridiculous and out of reason.

Now the question is which of the jackets were made of calfskin? Some have suggested the Bantu Wind dockside jacket an the Imam's house jacket, additionally one of the truck drag gag jackets.

jasonalun
07-24-2010, 09:43 PM
Hold the fort there, RC! :o I wasn't suggesting that at all or meaning to insult Tony in any way. I just think there must be some explanation that makes sense out of the conflicting statements by two leather experts. I just can't believe Peter doesn't know what kind of leather he made his jackets out of, but I do find it hard to believe Tony could be mistaken about what he handled either. I like the idea that the "ribby" leather jacket was not the one Tony examined. But that would mean that the jacket in Lucas' archive, which is supposed to be the hero, is not the true hero, because it seems to me that the "ribby" jacket appeared in the majority of scenes. I could be wrong about that. But anyway I like the explanation that one jacket was "ribby" leather (Peter is right) and one (at least) was "shrunken lamb" (Tony is also right). But that doesn't explain Peter's insistence that none of his jackets were shrunken lamb. ??? ??? But perhaps Peter used a leather for some of his jackets for the movie and didn't realize it was what some called "shrunken lamb"? :-\ Maybe his tanner gave him the wrong info? There are lots of possibilities without coming to the conclusion that a guy is a liar or ignorant, you know? I'd like to believe both Tony and Peter know what they are talking about and there's some explanation that reconciles all this.

RCSignals
07-24-2010, 10:57 PM
I didn't take your post as insulting Tony Nowak at all.

The thing about the 'ribby' hide is no one has yet been able to show a regularly tanned hide that has these features remaining prominent in the finished product except for ribby hides processed in the shrunken grain method. The shrunken grain process in tanning lamb skins was prominent at the time Raiders was made. Very very popular.

As for a jacket in Lucas archive, there is no proof of one. Some have said they'd been there and there was not one, but there is one in Lucas office.
There is no evidence the jacket Tony Nowak copied came from Lucas Office. In fact there is indication it may not have. Indeed if that jacket is calfskin it is not the jacket given to Tony Nowak to duplicate.
We know from Tony exactly one spot where the jacket appears, there were others but that one in the beginning is the spot that was confirmed to Tony. Had Tony not had confirmation of the jacket, he would not have duplicated it. That much I know.

As for a true Hero, was there one? The Hero while suppose to have one jacket actually wears more than just one in the movie. The 'ribby' lined one being the one seen most often.

I'll look for the photo of the 30 year old 'ribby' shrunken lamb skin tony sent me.


edited for typos

jasonalun
07-25-2010, 01:21 AM
I guess I misspoke - I meant the jacket in Lucas' possession. Isn't that the one that a certain, um, overbearing person some of us know, determined by some questionable "documentation" was the hero? But as has been said, so many jackets were worn it's hard to determine which would be "the hero jacket." And if the shrunken lamb is the one that appears most, as you have indicated, wouldn't that mean that the one in Lucas' office, if indeed a Cooper and made of calfskin, isn't the hero? Of course I believe I read said gentleman above saying that calfskin can be made to look like "ribby" shrunken lamb. I'm not a leather expert, but I find that a hoot.

I did not know there was evidence that the jacket Tony copied did not come from Lucas' office. I was under the understanding that it had, and that it came with a special courier and that person watched it like a hawk till Tony was done looking at it and whisked it back to Lucas. Where did that jacket come from, then?

crismans
07-25-2010, 02:54 AM
We need Gunslinger and neutronbomb to post their findings on what jacket was in what scene. It was very informative and if we could determine what jacket was in what scene, it might help to determine who the maker was (based on current knowledge of makers).

Personally, I really think that the Bantu Wind (BW) "still" shot we've seen so much of is a Cooper's. The low yoke and overall appearance seems to have a lot in common with the Temple of Doom jacket. I also tend to think this jacket pulled the majority of the truck gag work.

According to what's been presented, Lucas grabbed a jacket to take with him to Hawaii as shooting was wrapping up in Tunisia. We don't really know what jacket he grabbed, do we? The fact that most of the Hawaii shots are in shadow doesn't help us identify the jacket, but it doesn't appear to be the "Flying Wing" striated jacket.

I think that Peter's insistence on it not being shrunken lamb might be more a matter of semantics (and not wanting to admit that Tony was recreating his jacket). I really wish he would just answer some of the questions posted to him. It would clear up a lot of stuff and clear the air.

RCSignals
07-25-2010, 03:07 AM
The story that was given to explain where the jacket Tony Nowak came from was said by someone other than Tony to be as yo describe, from Lucas Office delivered by a courier 'Frank'

The problem is Tony had the jacket in his possession for days, not a few hours while someone waited. He was able to thoroughly examine and measure the jacket, even counting the teeth in teh zipper.
Another problem is the jacket in Lucas office has been said to be the main 'Hero' with ribby 'striations'. The jacket Tony had did not have 'ribby striations' but did have a block cell grain some refereed to as alligator or crocodile looking. The problem is compounded in a story that the jacket in Lucas office is made of calfskin.
What is needed are photos of the jacket in Lucas office. Also needed is evidence of calfskin with effects that duplicate those of ribby lamb. There has been no evidence that such a thing exists, at least that has not been created through a stamping process or something called 'Veau Crispe Togo'
which is a process of calf or cowhide to make it appear to be other types of leather. Most commonly used for high end women's handbags.

Neutronbomb did a lot of research on the shrunken grain process. Maybe he still has that report.
It is most effective on lamb and sheepskins, much less effective on goat or calf/cowhide, although the grain effect of those animals is different from the skin grain of lamb or sheep.

jasonalun
07-25-2010, 03:10 AM
Thanks RCSignals. I must have missed all that. That's good stuff. I'd like to read neutronbomb's stuff whenever he can get around to posting it.

crismans
07-25-2010, 03:22 AM
The problem is Tony had the jacket in his possession for days, not a few hours while someone waited. He was able to thoroughly examine and measure the jacket, even counting the teeth in teh zipper.

I think we're getting confused with the Crystal Skull jacket here. Tony said that someone went with him while he took the archive jacket to his shop (I'm almost positive Tony said he thought it was the Smithsonian jacket, but I'm not sure on that point) and waited while he made his submission jacket. I think he got to the shop sometime in the afternoon and had his jacket completed around midnight.

That is differerent from the Raiders jacket that, like RC said, Tony had in his shop for a while. Someone (can't remember who right off) has said several times that they were visiting Tony's shop and he threw the Raiders jacket in their lap. Wish they would've thought to take out their cell and grab some shots.

RCSignals
07-25-2010, 03:34 AM
That's true about the crystal Skull jacket, and yes Tony said and was told the jacket came out of the Smithsonian.
It's other people who have said it came from 'the archive'

jasonalun
07-25-2010, 03:54 AM
Well that makes more sense then. Anything from the Smithsonian is darn well going to have an escort and be watched. Something from Lucas' warehouse or wherever - not so much.

Gunslinger
07-25-2010, 06:51 AM
Good afternoon, boys.

I'll copy my jacket analysis stuff into a thread here so we can use it as a reference point.

I think we also need to be careful on what we take as a given - not that you aren't already. But there is a lot of stuff that you would have considered to be reasonable evidence that would now have to be brought into question given that person was basically caught out lying wherever someone has the means to verify. That was part of the point of my "Film evidence" threads - to strip away all the crap and start again just by doing the no-brainer thing of watching the movie.

Gunslinger
07-25-2010, 07:15 AM
This thread is an attempt to begin the process of purging the reality of the Raiders jacket from the misinformation floating around for years, and lay out which jacket appeared where and what happened to them in the course of filming.

There is quite a bit to this, so I'm going to lay it out in chunks. Showing the precise differences between the main jackets will happen in a few weeks - because I'm working on the assumption most regulars know about them. Ditto the obvious scenes where they appear. But the first thing I want to do is present a few connections and revelations that haven't been covered before that I've seen. So first an overview:

Here are the ONLY jackets evidenced in the movie, and a few quick markers:
1. Main "Hero" jacket - Droopy collar, striated chest panel, high yoke.
2. "Hawaii" jacket - Flat collar. Basically identical to "Hero" apart from texture variations and the way the collar lays.
3. "Bantu Wind" jacket - Flared open lapel, lower yoke, concaved collar.
4. "Imam's House" jacket - Pretty much identical to the BW jacket, but with a high yoke.

THESE ARE THE ONLY 4 LEATHER JACKETS, MAXIMUM, THAT APPEAR. There is NO "Wilson". If there is a Wilson, it is what I am calling the "Bantu Wind". But that jacket has pleats. Anyway, I digress. The point is - if there were more jackets made, they never made it to screen.

What happened to the jackets in this movie is very simple:

- The Bantu Wind scene was shot in France using the "Bantu Wind" jacket.

- Production moves to the UK. Imam's House scene is shot with Ford wearing a jacket very similar to the BW, but it has a higher yoke.

- For some reason when the next scene is shot - the corridor in the Peruvian Temple - Ford switches to another jacket after just a few shots. This new jacket becomes the main "Hero". He continues to wear this through the Elstree shoot, with Martin Grace using the "Hawaii". (see photo jumping over scary pit).

- They hit Tunisia, and use the "Hero" for the Flying Wing scene.

- The truck chase - here's where it gets interesting. Terry Leonard exclusively wears the "Bantu Wind" jacket on horseback, and going under the truck. This jacket HAS PLEATS. The only shot where no pleats appear is the one hanging onto the front. This is an illusion. As you can see by the photos below, there are pleats. If you watch the Making of DVD, and the Stunts of, he's clearly wearing this jacket when sussing out the going-under-the-truck stunt, etc.

- Ford wears ALL THREE jackets in the course of the truck sequence. And some very freaky things happen. The Ford scenes & pickup shots were shot over a couple of days. They were the last scenes where he wore a jacket in Tunisia.

- He was wearing the main "Hero" jacket being dragged on the road behind the truck. :shock: Even more amusing for those who hold this jacket as their holy grail, they then squibbed it and blew the arm apart. Note the drag marks / dust under the arm in the collage. So it was detonated. Bye bye hero jacket.

- There where TWO jackets with a bullet wound. The other one was the "Hawaii" - almost all the shots you see of Indy with the arm injury in the truck was this one. They just nicked the jacket with a little crooked slit. Completely different entry "wound". Flat collar very obvious.

- Just before the blond German dude jumps in the driver's side window, there is a shot of Indy. He's wearing the "Bantu Wind" jacket. Its collar presents completely differently to the other two.

- Jump to Hawaii. They can't use the main "Hero" because they drug it behind a car and then blew it up. The "Bantu Wind" is torn up pretty good too from Leonard's little escapade. So they switch to the least damaged - the "Hawaii". They patch the slit from the inside and shoot the remaining scenes. It then makes its way back to the ranch after filming. This is the jacket that Tony Nowak was given to duplicate.

That's it for now. Evidence below. Textures, zipper variations etc. have all been compared to the nth degree. There are more markeks / explanations but I really should start work for the day. :)

Thanks again for your help guys!

cheers, Gunslinger.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Yojimbo-Bantu-Collage.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/grace-sharp.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Yojimbo-Leonard-Connection.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Truck-dragsquib.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/7027-comp.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-truck-comp.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/868copy.jpg

Gunslinger
07-25-2010, 07:29 AM
So, building on from the previous post after further thought, it's possible there are basically 2 pairs of jackets. The Bantu Wind (BW) and the Imam's House (IH); and then the Main Jacket (MJ) with the Hawaii (HW).

While researching my recent Nowak jacket, I went through the whole movie shot-for-shot and frame-by-frame to test my hypothesis.

Obviously, it isn’t possible for individual jackets to be identified within every single shot, but there are many shots within each scene where something is identifiable to tag a specific jacket as one of the 4 noted. Nothing suggests there were more. If anything, the fact that every jacket (on a stuntman or Ford) where we see enough detail has markers from one of the 4 does tend to confirm that there were only 4 jackets.

The only “mystery” jacket I had encountered was in the truck – I had previously thought it was the BW; but the BW jacket opened a can of worms. The whole way it presented was significantly different to the other 2, but there was a key difference between scenes that otherwise looked like the same oddball jacket. - The yoke.

Discussing this with others and being really picky about what we were seeing made me sure there had to be 2 of these weird jackets. There was no other way to reconcile what we were seeing.

Here is a collage of where this first pair of jackets appear. I've kept it tagged as the "Bantu Wind jacket" here.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg

They have very specific characteristics and markers that, in combination, are mutually exclusive to the other jackets in the film, and to each other. There is NOTHING in any of these shots that looks like shrunken lamb. I could buy that these were made of something else.

Although I’ve gone through the whole movie, it’s impractical for me to go shot-for-shot with screencaps here, so will illustrate the depth and style of my reasoning with a few specific scenes & shots. So, starting at the infamous Bantu Wind shoot, we have the first appearance of a jacket in the shooting order. It isn't seen in much of the movie. This jacket MAY have a low yoke, but I actually think the lighting may well be creating an illusion of that. Anyway, I won't repeat my other thread re the markers of this jacket other than to say it's zipper gap is very specifically tall, the collar stand highish, and the collar and the way the jacket flays open is very consistent. See the top left image to really get a sense of how different that gap is to the main jackets used.

In fact it presents as pretty much identical to this jacket in the Imam's House scene, which was shot next. Note the markers showing that it has a high yoke.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Imams-Yoke.jpg

So, high yoke, big zipper-to-collar stand gap, and that wavy transitional bit you see at the join. But hang on, check this out from the La Rochelle shoot:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Jacket_Dock1.jpg

Definitely a low yoke. Can't be the Imam's jacket. (It's possible that this specific photo COULD be the "PoS" jacket and it was never used in the footage seen in the film.) However, that aside, all the other markers are identical, and they show up on Ford at the Bantu Wind, at Imams, in one shot in the truck chase, and all of Terry Leonard's footage, both in the film and in the making-of footage. The ONLY inconsistency is the yoke. Ford tends to wear the high yoked one, Leonard the low.

OK, so how are therse jackets definitely different to the main jackets we see? Let me lay it out by using the next scene shot.

Now, that whole next week after Imams was spent filming the Peruvian Temple scenes. The first scenes shot involved the spiders and the booby-trapped corridor. All of a sudden, a new jacket appears – the one that evolves into the Main Jacket, with some brief reappearances of the Bantu Wind (Cooper?).

In the temple when he says "Stay out of the light", it's the BW.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/pointy-temple-2.jpg

Same collar, zipper gap. SQUARE collar stand. It then switches to the Main "Hero" Jacket. You'll notice that's the one with the high yoke in these sequences, and the start of the droopy collar. So then he goes over the ravine to the Idol area, all MJ. Then they come back, under the collapsing door, yanks whip - still main jacket, then cutaway, then reveal of dead guide - Boom - BW again. Same section of set (and time of shooting) as when it was last seen. Back to main jacket for rolling ball entrance.
So, rewatching very slowly there are 2 jackets in this section of the set - the BW and the "Hero" - based on collar presentation / folding / start of droopiness vs. concaveness of BW.

- To digress for a moment, another interesting thing I discovered in analyzing this footage was the start of the MJ’s “droopy collar” – which is this jacket’s most easily distinguishable feature. The cut of this collar is no different to the HW, but it is folded differently. (I covered this in a thread about a year ago about “collar training”) Here’s how it happened. In the whole first week of the jacket being worn, Ford’s wearing the collar “popped”. Very ‘70s / ‘80s look.

Anyway, in doing so, the RH collar develops a convex shape at a point beyond the collar/collar stand seam. The leather gets broken in along that line, and we end up with the effect you see on screen, and it gets worse and worse throughout. The bad cut of the jacket exacerbates this effect. Much has been discussed about the “off the shoulder” effect of the Nowak HW jacket duplicate, and anyone who has owned a Nowak Indy1 will tell you how much it wants to move around on you – it feels unstable rather than sitting on your shoulders. I believe the fact that we see the jacket pulling down off Ford’s RH side points to the same pattern at work here. It’s come from a combo of collar “training”, Ford’s posture and the way his other costume items – bag, gun holster, etc. nudge the jacket around on him.

- Anyway, as I noted in the other thread, from this point until the truck chase, the jacket we see is exclusively the MJ, with the exception of the one worn by Martin Grace when riding the collapsing statue in the WoS scene.

- If you watch the film with the shooting order in mind, you can see the evolution of this jacket. It goes Peruvian temple, Well of Souls, Raven Bar, Bantu Wind cabin, Indy’s house (MJ striations visible in suitcase), Tanis horse theft, the flying wing, and the truck chase (where all 3 jackets are used).

So, what are the markers of the Main Jacket that I and a few others have identified? How are they different from the Bantu Wind (Cooper?) and the Hawaii jacket that Nowak replicates.

- Droopy RH collar. The shape is the same as the HW but fold creates the illusion of difference.
- Tony Nowak confirmed from screen grabs that like the HW jacket he examined, the RH zipper of the MJ has been “crammed”, and this results in the permanent curve at the top. This curve pops inwards as well as out, but the effect is most noticeable when it pops outward. The BW jacket does not do this, as you can see above.

- Versus the Hawaii, the RH gap to the Zipper stop is a little larger. This same gap of the BW is even further, and is curved, as noted above.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Collar-collage.jpg

- The variety of shrunken lamb on the MJ is arguably different to the HW. The MJ is definitely striated, with markers visible on almost every panel of the jacket; the most prominent being the front RH chest panel. (The HW jacket may also have these striations, but they just aren’t noticeable in the shots we see it in.) None of these are evident in the BW jacket, which presents as far more cow-like graining and general "crustiness" as you can see.

- There are numerous imperfections visible on the MJ. For example, there is a diagonal line-shaped leather gathering bubble about 5" down LH side facing. Other areas of consistency are the pockets. (The HW jacket has similar gathering on the lower LH storm flap.)
- One key imperfection is a dimpled collar stand that is rounded off with a "Butt Crack" shaped surface. The rounding is not an illusion. A row of stitching is clearly visible. Neither the HW or BW jackets have rounded collar stands, and the HW’s surface has multiple dimples.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/temple-jump.jpg

- The HW jacket has what might be backing tape behind the pocket flaps. This makes the surrounding rectangular area wobbly-looking. The MJ does not.

- The anchoring of the BW straps seems to be different.

That’s it for now. I’m sure I’ve left stuff out, as I came up with most of this stuff and discussed it with a few friends a while ago. But frankly, I think it's all pretty straightforward, and you all have the DVD. If anything's really contentious, I'll put more pics up. If you disagree, please feel free to throw up any grabs that don’t jive. I’m in this for the fun of the analysis, so it’s all good.

Gunslinger.

crismans
07-25-2010, 02:01 PM
Great job getting this all together, Gunslinger! It will actually take me several readings to digest all of this.

However, first impressions:

There is a kind of symmetry between what you have presented that just feels "right" to me. It seems to bring in a lot of the disparate elements and provide connections where there were none before.

All of this is hypothetical, of course, but, from what we've heard, from the shooting schedule, and from jacket markers, it seems to "fit" that the BW still shot and the Imam's house jacket are Cooper's (calf skin?). Then, the Leather Concessionaires order comes in (in lambskin?) and, for reasons unknown--could be one of those were more comfortable or something as simple as that's the jacket they grabbed and it just kept being used--, the jackets get switched up and Ford begins wearing the main jacket (MJ) through the remainder of the production until it gets squibbed in the truck chase.

What was throwing me, personally, was my belief that the Imam's house jacket was the Hawaii. If the Imam's jacket was a Cooper, then we had a contradiction between what Cooper was saying and what Tony Nowak said he had as far as leathers. If there were two sets of jackets (BW and Imam's, and then the Main Jacket and Hawaii) this eliminates that contradiction. It also gives credence to some of the statements made by Peter Botwright.

admin
07-25-2010, 07:34 PM
Thanks for posting this, Gunslinger. I've made it a sticky if you don't mind.

Gunslinger
07-26-2010, 04:29 AM
No problem. Hopefully it'll be of some help.

crismans
07-26-2010, 08:26 PM
I also think (and Gunslinger, you alluded to this before) that it's a good idea to start from square one, so to speak. The history of this jacket has become (really amazingly if you think about it) convoluted over the years with one story spread and then another. Not saying that one story or another is wrong either, but I think we need to start with what we can see first and work our way from there.

Edited for spelling.

RCSignals
07-26-2010, 10:30 PM
Many times it has been alluded to that 'people who were there' said ......

The problem is no record of such dialog has ever been presented, other than Nadoolman interviews.

It has also been suggested a few times that examining what is on screen is not realistic. I can't see how it wouldn't be, as long as the examiner allows for such things as lighting, film quality, etc etc.
We have lately seen some good HD images.
It is simply not rational to say examining screen images and production stills is 'not real'

Gunslinger
07-26-2010, 10:50 PM
I think that most people with a bit of insight can see a mile away how such comments are geared to make the only "valid" information the stuff that is given to fans from "other" channels that "can't" be disputed.

Obviously it's true that what's on screen is a warped version of reality, but as long as you take that stuff into account, and weigh up certain film effects against others, putting all the pieces of info we have together, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to nail it pretty closely.

For instance, whatever leather grain we see onscreen, there would have been more on the actual jackets. Lighting, motion blur, the editing process which means that there is often at least 3 stages of replication from the negative, plus digital interference like noise reduction, etc. all affect our ability to see fine detail. But for the most part, if sharp detail is there (eg rounded collar stand), and you can see it multiple times, chances are that it is what it appears to be.

This is why I'm of zero doubt that the main jacket was striated shrunken lamb. Because where we CAN see detail, the grain pattern is clearly there, and it's unreplicatable in any other hide.

neutronbomb
07-26-2010, 11:34 PM
Gunslinger has done a rather amazing job of putting these comparison collages together and I find myself referring to them again and again. Really a tremendous effort and a great layout of everything.

I've been wondering lately about two theories that have been bugging me non-stop.
1. I keep going back to seeing that the Iman's and Hawii jackets could be the same jacket
2. And I keep wondering about the possibility that after the main jacket makes it's cameo in the truck cab fight scene that it's the Hawaii the rest of the way.

I want to be able to discuss images and post them so we can discuss, but I don't think we're doing that on this site.

crismans
07-27-2010, 12:04 AM
I want to be able to discuss images and post them so we can discuss, but I don't think we're doing that on this site.


I'm afraid you've lost me here. I don't see any reason why you can't post images and discuss them here. The whole purpose of this site is to discuss and debate what we're seeing and know is actually factual. Now, there is currently a problem with the pictures not popping up enough to show detail on the site, but the SA is working to fix that problem. We might have to save the image to our computer and blow it up for a while until the problem's fixed.


The problem is no record of such dialog has ever been presented, other than Nadoolman interviews.


The problem is, without getting too "confrontational" is that we have been constantly told that we have, to paraphrase, some nerve to argue with "the people who were there", even though we've never seen or read this in their words. BUT, any person that was "actually there" whose words we do have access to, a prime example is Nadoolman, have been systematically discredited.

We are not to believe any person who was there that we actually have a record of their statements.

jasonalun
07-27-2010, 12:17 AM
If you post images using imageshack and their "thumbnail links", you should get a nice small thumbnail that will link to the imageshack site where you will get the full size image. Check out my posts in the Cairo Marketplace for an example. I disabled the "attachments" feature as I am concerned about filling up my server space.

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 12:20 AM
Gunslinger and I differ a bit on some of the finer details of the jackets in the movie. I'm sure given time we'll get some good debates rolling, but I will say it's not so much I disagree as that I have a question as to whether another explanation may be also fit.

For example, at this point I firmly believe there were 4 jackets used in the movie. And for one, probably too attractive reason, makes sense. Bantu Wind Sitting dockside still picture jacket/Terry Leonard Truck Drag Stunt jacket is one credited to Neil Cooper and the other three as "stunt jackets" credited to Peter Botwright. I will say that that last sentence shouldn't be taken as a Gospel fact, but just that currently there are several gear people crediting the jackets in that way. Peter of course states he designed and created all of the jackets used in ROTLA and Cooper states he submitted two jackets for ROTLA.

So in examining the movie footage I am with Gunslinger on thinking there were 4 jackets used in the film. Which does fit nicely with the 1 by neil cooper and 3 stunts by Peter Botwright theory.

1. The Bantu Wind Sitting Dockside Still Picture/Bantu Wind film scene/Terry Leonard Truck Drag Stunt Jacket
2. Iman's film scene jacket
3. Main Hero jacket (Temple, Well of Souls, Ravenbar, Flying Wing, first part of truck cab fight scene)
4. Hawaii film scene jacket

Where I leave room for another possibility and where I currently differ with gunslinger is that for me by strictly examining the film footage I believe the Bantu Wind is a completely different pattern and design jacket than the other three and that the possibility exists that the other three are practically identical to each other in design and pattern and likely made by the same person/company.

So for instance, I'm still leaving room for the idea that the bantu wind/truck drag jacket is completely separate from all the rest and the other three share the same pattern and leather type with each other. In fact, for myself I haven't completely let go of the idea that gunslinger originally introduced that the Iman's and hawaii jackets are the same jackets.

'What we know about the Raiders jacket' ????

Well, that's a tough one because so much information is stated as fact by so many different people. Much of it contradictory and then changing. I'm personally not married to any it. However, one thing I do personally believe that I'll share is one of the jackets is made of shrunken lambskin and that's because Tony Nowak told me in his shop face to face the following.

1. A movie executive (big wig from the studio) had a screen used ROTLA jacket delivered to Tony to examine and to copy and to make the executive as an exact a replica as possible

2. The jacket was delivered in a package with documentation including pictures and it's history in the movie and extensive notes.

3. The jacket is housed in a studio warehouse in LA

4. Tony examined the jacket thoroughly and without any doubt recognized the type of leather as shrunken lambskin.

5. He found a piece of shrunken lambskin in his shop that was 30 years old that "most" closely matched what the leather of the jacket looked like.

6. Tanning methods have changed over 30 years and there are a variety of types of shrunken lambskin available. Tony worked with his tannery in Italy to develop a shrunken lambskin that duplicated as close as possible the type of shrunken lamb of the jacket he had in hand using modern tanning methods that are available today.

I spent quite a bit of time with Tony in 2009 when I worked with him in his shop on a Rotla jacket project for my family and got to hear the above several times directly from Tony. He did also state publicly that the "TYPE" of leather of the jacket that he was given to examine can be seen in minute 3:23 of the rotla movie.

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 12:51 AM
Here's a copy of a picture Peter botwright publicly posted stating this was the type of leather he used when making the Rotla movie jackets. He also said in regards to the picture below that it was NOT shrunken lamb and that it included stretch and growth marks from the sheep/lamb.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_skin3.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=skin3.jpg)

Here's a copy of a picture of the 30 year old skin that Tony says was the type of leather the rotla jacket he examined looked like. He says in regards to the picture below that it IS shrunken lambskin and that it is from a breed of sheep that has natural striations as part of it's skin.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0723.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0723.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0714.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0714.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0710.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0710.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0711.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0711.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0705.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0705.jpg)

Maybe RCSignals has a better memory of what Tony said about the jacket he had to examine having some ribby striations like the photos above of tony comparing his 30 year old skin agains a picture of screencap of one of the rotla film jackets. My memory doesn't really come up with anything regarding that specifically, however I know Tony told me he was focused on getting the type of shrunken lambskin level and color correct. And it is interesting that some of the customer jackets from that batch of original skins from the tannery do show some ribby striations in it. Castor's come to mind.

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 01:02 AM
NB - I think you've put the wrong shot in for the crispe Peter posted.

Re the BW / Imams differences, the main one I noticed was the yoke. I wasn't really looking for other markers that would indicate the construction was relatively different between the 2 as that wasn't what I was trying to work out at that stage, but I can absolutely see that the BW could be the oddball out of the 4. It's the only one with that low yoke for one.

However, just noticed in looking back at the captures, the Imams and the BW share the basically identical collar, top of zipper, collar stand construction, and the way the leather has "behaved" is VERY similar. Don't know. I'm a bit hazy on the details of the non-hero jackets now as it's been a while since I did that research.

Is that time in the movie when Ford's face is revealed out of shadow for the first time?

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 01:10 AM
I've been wondering lately about two theories that have been bugging me non-stop.
1. I keep going back to seeing that the Iman's and Hawii jackets could be the same jacket
2. And I keep wondering about the possibility that after the main jacket makes it's cameo in the truck cab fight scene that it's the Hawaii the rest of the way.


I was working on the theory that they WERE the same jacket a few months ago, but then noticed a few details that ruled it out. If I recall it was the collar stand construction, top of the zipper / gap and a few other little things like that. Actually I think YOU were the one that pointed my thinking in that direction NB! ;)

The HW is definitely in a bunch of truck shots. It's pretty easy to differentiate it from the main jacket as the MJ has the droopy collar in most shots whereas the HW lies flat.

Post away man!

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 01:22 AM
yeah, yeah I know :)

but, really my idea of the zipper ending far (relatively) below the collar stand was in noticing a distinguishing feature of the bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket.

There is absolutely no doubt that the hawaii is used in the truck cab fight scene. You have done a marvelous job of making that connection. Across the board I think it is very, very obvious.

the thing I'm currently exploring is the idea that the two screencaps with the window shield still intact and spattered in blood that we've thought is the Bantu wind or the Iman's jackets could be the hawaii jacket & or hawaii/Iman's jacket. Same for the one of HF being drug behind the truck. The right side (HF's perspective) collar just doesn't present to me quite like the hard core main jacket does in the beginning of the scene.

I think this is maybe one of those topics that we could get some great debate going on.

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 01:34 AM
It sure is. ;D

The only REAL question is which of us is going to end up in the loonie bin first... :D

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 01:35 AM
I think it's part of the scene as he's whipping the gun out of what's his names hand. I'll have to relook at the movie again. It's been a couple of months.

And Peter did first post the picture I showed in my previous post as what he had in his shop as being what the jackets for Rotla he made were made out of. The crispe was an entirely different conversation and related to him making comparisons from his experience to what he was thinking about Tony's first batch of shrunken lambskin.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason Peter stated with the picture below that it was made out of lambskin when in fact it is cowhide.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_DSC02024.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=DSC02024.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_lambovercrispe.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=lambovercrispe.jpg)

crismans
07-27-2010, 01:37 AM
Is that time in the movie when Ford's face is revealed out of shadow for the first time?

I watched the movie when Tony told me that 3:23 was when the jacket he examined was in the movie, but it's been a while. I do believe you're right on that one, Gunslinger. I think it's when Ford first steps out of the shadows.



Where I leave room for another possibility and where I currently differ with gunslinger is that for me by strictly examining the film footage I believe the Bantu Wind is a completely different pattern and design jacket than the other three and that the possibility exists that the other three are practically identical to each other in design and pattern and likely made by the same person/company.

So for instance, I'm still leaving room for the idea that the bantu wind/truck drag jacket is completely separate from all the rest and the other three share the same pattern and leather type with each other. In fact, for myself I haven't completely let go of the idea that gunslinger originally introduced that the Iman's and hawaii jackets are the same jackets.

Okay, not trying to argue here, just trying to clarify. If we go by what Cooper is reported to have said (that he made two jackets for Raiders), and you feel that the BW "dockside still" is one of those jackets, but the Imam's isn't another Cooper, what are your thoughts on what happened to the other Cooper? You would get the dockside still jacket, and three from Peter. Again, I'm not trying to say you're wrong here, I just wonder what your thoughts are on the other Cooper (if it existed). It's all speculation but maybe it just wasn't used?

I have two threads of thought running in my head and a lot of questions without answers. Let me just throw some random thoughts out here and then work through them. Supposedly, the WC mock-up was used as a basic pattern (I have no trouble believing that it was) by both makers. It that's the case, why did the BW dock jacket have a different yoke and so on from the WC pattern? Why were adjustments made to the jacket to include the higher yoke?

If you look at it this way, it appears to support NB's thoughts that the BW jacket is a bit of a one off and the other three go together. Another thing is that the BW wind still jacket has the yoke and arm sleeve lined up. This isn't a shot at Mr. Cooper in any way, but I've always been a bit confused at, considering the man's reputation in the industry, why he made a jacket with the yoke/arm seam misaligned. Especially since, as I've said elsewhere, about every jacket maker I've talked to considers that a design flaw.

Another thing which supports NB's theory is, the Temple of Doom jacket has many design features that seem to link it to the BW jacket (the aforementioned low yoke, for one--early Cooper's have strap attachment points that seem similar to what we see on the BW jacket). Let's just say that Cooper makes the BW jacket then adjusts the design to make the Imam's house jacket. Why does he go back to his older design for the Temple jacket? Why wouldn't he go with the adjusted pattern for Raiders?

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 02:21 AM
these are all good points.

I've tried to separate out all the who made what jackets when examining the film itself. So for me, I try to just compare the jackets to each other. I'm solid on the bantu wind/truck drag being way different and with way different features as to all the rest of jackets used in the movie. There's one. I'm solid on the main jacket being easily identifiable as also a different separate jacket. I'm also solid that there is another 1 and possibly 2 other jackets used in the movie that share the same features as the main jacket, but clearly different than the main jacket.

So that's in just looking at the film.

Of course speculating about how it all came about and who made what is another huge part of the fun. Currently, I haven't really been able to get excited about a theory of who made what or get any of them to match up with what I'm seeing on film. I did send an email to neil cooper asking him about his role in the rotla movie and showing him lot's of screencaps and pointing out the pattern differences and asking him specifically which jacket pattern and features were his. He replied back that he would look at it and get back to me, but never did. So as far as I know, none of the jackets in the movie were his.

Here's what I believe. In an interview Deborah, says she was given one complete jacket just in time to make it to france for the bantu wind shoot and that first night in France determined the jacket could pass muster and the other back up jackets would be coming into costume later. I think whoever it was that actually made the bantu wind that it was the prototype jacket. And that whoever it was that made the other jackets we then see in the movie, they incorporated design and feature changes purposefully based on input from everyone who was in France and checked out the completed jacket that Deborah brought.

I think Peter has stated that he made several renditions of the jacket along the way. Presented a jacket to wardrobe/costume, they asked for changes, he made changes in the next go around. That fits as well as any other.

RCSignals
07-27-2010, 02:49 AM
This is the photo Tony originally sent me of his 30 year old shrunken lamb.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Shrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Shrunken.jpg)

He found it in the closet of one of his houses. He said shortly after that he discovered the French fellow he bought hides from 30 years ago had a shop just behind his. Nefarious met him when he visited Tony.

and this is what Tony sent me in an email accompanying the photo


heckO ****** !I FINALLY TOOK THE PHOTOS TO SHOW PHYSICALLY (FACTS ) WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT .MANY DIFFERENT JACKETS WERE USED IN INDY ONE MADE OUT OF SHRUNKEN LAMB THAT ALSO VARIES A LOT , BUT THATS WHAT IT WAS . HERE IS ONE THAT IS VERY DISTINCT .THAT LEATHER BELONGS TO ME , I USED TO WORK WITH IT IN THE EIGHTIES AND THAT IS WHY IT TOOK ME ABOUT N 1 SECOND TO RECOGNIZE WHAT IT WAS WHEN I WATCHED THE RAIDERS MOVIE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME WHILE WORKING ON THE CRYSTAL SKULL JACKET . PLEASE BE SO KIND AND SHARE THE PHOTOS AND THIS EMAIL WITH ALL THE INDY FANS OUT THERE .THANK YOU KINDLY , MY VERY BEST REGARDS ALWAYS TONY NOWAK .


Here is the other photo he sent with the first one

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/Indyshrunken.jpg

edit. The first word in the quote is ' H E L L O ' for some reason it is showing as heckO

Tony followed that up with these


THAT IS WHAT I HAVE HERE NOW A FULL HIDE ABOUT 29 YEARS OLD ,T.N.


I AM SHOWING THAT HIDE TO INFORM THE INDY FANS WITH SOME VERY STANDARD
FACTS ABOUT THAT SHRUNKEN LAMB THATS ALL .

Those were in response to people calling and emailing him, and sending him hate mail, about shrunken lamb.

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 02:50 AM
This breakdown works well, and is totally plausible. I'd just be curious as to where the info regarding Western Costumes mockups, etc. all came from.

Nadoolman-Landis seems quite open to talking:
http://indyfans.aforumfree.com/interviews-f2/deborah-nadoolman-landis-joins-indyfans-t1.htm

http://www.dressedthebook.com/Home.html

Just had a quick google around but can't find contact details... hmmm..

jasonalun
07-27-2010, 02:54 AM
I like that theory a lot, neutronbomb. That would also explain why Peter has never been able to replicate the "main jacket," as he didn't have any "master" pattern to go off, perhaps, just a basic design and he can't remember all the little details about any particular jacket as he seems to have made at last three and maybe more, all having little tweaks made from other's input, as you say. That makes a lot of sense of what we've seen.

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 03:04 AM
The book website apparently belongs to Nadoolman, so I've guessed at info@ and admin@ and sent an email introducing myself. We'll see if it goes anywhere.

It could be a good project for each of us to contact a bunch of other production members for their recollections. Being able to post our findings will give us some authority (esp. vs COW as a competitor in Internet traffic), and it'll be interesting as to who has heard of our chubby-armed friend.

jasonalun
07-27-2010, 03:09 AM
I was going to suggest the same thing, Gunslinger! I'm a pretty good sleuth, and am persistent. I think I might be able to worm my way into an interview or email exchange with somebody involved.

EDITED - removed reference to another place.

neutronbomb
07-27-2010, 03:41 AM
Yes, the theory about Peter does work nicely. However, there are lots of interesting points and theories and questions that are brought up surrounding this. A quick list of some of just a few that comes to mind.

1. Why is it that Peter first run of jackets in the early 80's missed the mark by so much, it is an interesting BTW that those very, very first run replicas were made from shrunken lamb, followed by a pattern change that appears very similar to what Lee Keppler was getting produced at the time and had sent to Peter to examine and make copies with the potential of Lee purchasing them through Peter, followed by another pattern change which was based on fan input specs.

2. Why is it that the Bantu Wind/Terry Leonard stunt jacket so closely resemble the TOD jacket that is credited to Neil Cooper.

3. Why is it that US Wings, who have stated they were the backers of Neil Cooper, has been allowed by Lucas Films to use terminology and state they made the Raiders jacket when other vendors, other than Peter Botwright, haven't been allowed to.

So, it seems that Lucas Films has allowed two vendors to state they made the jacket for Raiders of the Lost ark and use what Lucas Films considers copyright/trademark terminology.

There's lots and lots of possible explanations to answer these types of questions, but it just seems there's enough possible doubt that we can't get the door shut on exactly what we know about the Raiders jacket.

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 04:07 AM
Bummer- all my emails bounced. I also tried Deborah@ but it was no go either. I know she does a lot of lecturing - maybe there's a "home" uni email address that she can be contacted via?

jasonalun
07-27-2010, 04:20 AM
Good questions. However, how can Lucas prevent Peter from advertising that he was the maker of the Raiders jacket? He was. At least one of them, and we think probably three. They can't tell Steve Delk not to say he is the maker of the Indy 4 hat. He is. They can prevent him from using the Indy logos or saying he is the official Indiana Jones jacket maker, but nothing else. Is that what they are allowing Wings/Cooper to say - that they are the "official" Indy Raiders jacket maker? They don't say that anywhere on their site right now. Peter does state on his site that he was the maker of the Raiders jacket. ??? AND he uses the names "Indiana Jones" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark", both of which are copyrighted, so he must have the right if Lucas hasn't sued him yet. It's been there for years now.

I just went to Wings site, and the only reference to Raiders is they use the word "Indy" - but there's no copyright on that, so that doesn't mean anything. The only things they call "Indy Jones" are their hats, and those are Lucas-licensed hats so they can do that there. But they don't call their jackets "Indy Jones" jackets, just "Indy-style" jackets. I think that is telling. So I don't know about the whole thing of Wings being the one Lucas allows to use their "terminology." Do you remember where that came from exactly? It wasn't a certain thick-armed fellow, was it? Just wondering. Strange.

crismans
07-27-2010, 01:07 PM
In their flyers, Wings does state in no uncertain terms that they were makers of the Raiders of the Lost Ark jacket. Which does, in my mind at least, lend credence, to the claim that Cooper made at least one jacket.

jasonalun
07-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Oh, I have no doubt Cooper made at least one jacket for the movie, but I don't believe they have the "exclusive right" to call themselves the "Raiders Indy Jacket maker." Wested can lay claim to that too, and does. No one has proven that Peter didn't make jackets for the movie.

crismans
07-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Oh, I have no doubt Cooper made at least one jacket for the movie, but I don't believe they have the "exclusive right" to call themselves the "Raiders Indy Jacket maker." Wested can lay claim to that too, and does. No one has proven that Peter didn't make jackets for the movie.


Exactly, even though there seems to be a push for just that.

RCSignals
07-27-2010, 07:50 PM
The problem with the Imams jacket being the Hawaii jacket other than details of it that seem to be different visually is this. the Imams jacket was credited to (allegedly) be one made by Neil Cooper. It has been intimated that Neil Cooper made all of the jackets he did out of calfskin.
The 'Hawaii' jacket identified as the jacket loaned to Tony Nowak to replicate, was made of lambskin.

crismans
07-27-2010, 08:12 PM
The problem with the Imams jacket being the Hawaii jacket other than details of it that seem to be different visually is this. the Imams jacket was credited to (allegedly) be one made by Neil Cooper. It has been intimated that Neil Cooper made all of the jackets he did out of calfskin.
The 'Hawaii' jacket identified as the jacket loaned to Tony Nowak to replicate, was made of lambskin.


This is very true. However, what I suggest is to take all of these "stories" out of the equation and see what we can determine by looking at jacket markers, period. Just focus on what we can see and find out where that process takes us.

RCSignals
07-27-2010, 09:28 PM
This is true, and I'm not suggesting that shouldn't be done. It may well be the Imam's jacket and Hawaii jacket are the same. However if they are, the Imam's jacket would be lambskin, not calfskin.
By extension not one made by Neil Cooper.

crismans
07-27-2010, 11:52 PM
This is true, and I'm not suggesting that shouldn't be done. It may well be the Imam's jacket and Hawaii jacket are the same. However if they are, the Imam's jacket would be lambskin, not calfskin.
By extension not one made by Neil Cooper.


If he actually said what it's been reported he said. ;) You and I both have heard different "takes" on that same tale.

Gunslinger
07-28-2010, 01:11 AM
Between the shooting schedule, the difference in jacket markers, and the analysis done by Tony points to Cooper having made, at best, the BW, and the Imams.

crismans
07-29-2010, 03:45 PM
Okay, so what do we have so far.

We have the BW dockside still photo that might or might not be in the actual dock scene.

It appears that the pattern of this jacket is then modified and we get the Imam's house jacket. This jacket is used for that scene. I believe it was used just a little in the temple scene as well?

Then, we get the Main Jacket (MJ). Same basic pattern as the Imam's house jacket but presents differently. This jacket is used pretty much exclusively through the movie until we get to the truck gag where, it appears, the MJ is squibbed. A jacket that looks a lot like the BW jacket is in the truck gag as well. Also, the Hawaii jacket makes its first appearance as well in the truck scene.

Then, the Hawaii goes to, well, Hawaii.

Do I have our conjectures down so far. Not saying this is necessarily the order, but just trying to make sure I have the theories down.

crismans
07-29-2010, 03:49 PM
Between the shooting schedule, the difference in jacket markers, and the analysis done by Tony points to Cooper having made, at best, the BW, and the Imams.


I have no problem accepting this but I wonder what prompted the changes to the Imam's pattern. Would having the higher yoke affect, for example, getting to the pistol and whip? Changing the strap attachment points makes sense. I had a Blue Label for a while and the straps got in the way. But why change the yoke? And why offset the yoke and sleeve seam? It could just be an "error" of sorts but why does the MJ and Hawaii have the same feature (assuming they were made by a different person)?
And why did Cooper revert back to his first pattern (or something very similar) for his Temple of Doom jacket?

AGain, not saying you're not right on it. Just tossing out some questions.

jasonalun
07-29-2010, 05:03 PM
What I don't get is how some people (no names) can look at Gunslinger's presentation and agree with it, then later change their mind and insist that Cooper made the hero jacket and it is in Lucas' office, which, if Gunslinger's analysis is right (and I think it is), the " hero" or main jacket, got squibbed and is who knows where! Maybe it ended up in a trash can somewhere in Tunisia! :o

Gunslinger
07-31-2010, 08:55 AM
Well THAT I don't know. But...

What if 2 versions are simply made as different options? I do it all the time with creative jobs. That way the client can choose. SO you have 2 versions, they're presented literally the day befor filming or whatever, and Spielberg / Nadoolman like the higher-yoked one - the Imams; so they leave it at Bermans to be duplicated, and take the other to shoot the minor, night-time scene in France (no-one will be crazy enough to see the difference anyway, right? :D ).

So the low-yoked BW is used in France while the Imams stays in the UK for Bermans to commission copies. So the others are duplicates of it, so are slightly different again, but share the high yoke. Production then comes back to the UK, shoot with the high yoke jacket on the Imams set, and then in the first scene requiring a stuntman, we see one of these 2 jackets used (you can tell by the collar stand / zipper top) until a new jacket entirely is switched in - the one that will be the one used as the hero jacket through almost all of the film.

crismans
07-31-2010, 03:18 PM
Well THAT I don't know. But...

What if 2 versions are simply made as different options? I do it all the time with creative jobs. That way the client can choose. SO you have 2 versions, they're presented literally the day befor filming or whatever, and Spielberg / Nadoolman like the higher-yoked one - the Imams; so they leave it at Bermans to be duplicated, and take the other to shoot the minor, night-time scene in France (no-one will be crazy enough to see the difference anyway, right? :D ).

So the low-yoked BW is used in France while the Imams stays in the UK for Bermans to commission copies. So the others are duplicates of it, so are slightly different again, but share the high yoke. Production then comes back to the UK, shoot with the high yoke jacket on the Imams set, and then in the first scene requiring a stuntman, we see one of these 2 jackets used (you can tell by the collar stand / zipper top) until a new jacket entirely is switched in - the one that will be the one used as the hero jacket through almost all of the film.



Okay, this theory makes quite a bit of sense actually. One thing I have to do is remember that (to paraphrase Tony) "It's just a %$#$*ing jacket." In other words, I have to watch that I don't assign too much importance to any decision made on set concerning the gear. Once Nadoolman had went through the process of deciding upon the look, I imagine it was pretty much just grab a hat, grab a jacket (allowing for basic continuity) and get to filming.

This jacket has taken on mythological proportions, of sorts, amongst us who have tried to nail down it's history. Sometimes, I find myself trying to attribute some deeper meaning to why this jacket was used or why this one. But, it was just a prop to the makers of the movie. Somethings were done on the basis of expediency. Some were done just because.

For example, although it could have been a question of fit or something else, it's probably a good possibility that the jacket switch from the Imam's jacket to the MJ was just a random thing. They needed a jacket for the temple scenes, grabbed the MJ and this jacket kept on being grabbed for the scenes until it was squibbed in Hawaii. It could have easily occurred that the Imam's jacket was grabbed for the temple scene and used for the rest of the movie. Then that would be the main jacket.

RCSignals
07-31-2010, 06:22 PM
this is still assuming the imam's jacket is the same as the Hawaii jacket?

neutronbomb
07-31-2010, 07:52 PM
the shape of the right side collar and collar end to me looks almost exact for the Bantu wind/truck drag stunt, Iman's, and hawaii jackets

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/th_leonard1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/?action=view&current=leonard1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_018.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=018.jpg)

The Iman's via two steps. The way the zipper lays and curves in and then out at the top and the exact same perfect way the lining fold presents right next top the very top of the zipper:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_205-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=205-1-1-1.jpg)

Matches so close to this jacket from the temple scene that I think they have to be the same jacket and then of course the right side collar end matches with the Hawaii and bantu wind/truck drag above:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_light.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=light.jpg)


I'm also thinking I may be mistaken about the zipper ending below the collar stand on the Bantu Wind and that it is a fold/bend instead of a seam. Here's gunslinger's excellent collage showing super good closeups:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg)

What do you guys think??

neutronbomb
07-31-2010, 08:24 PM
No. I really think the bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket does end below the collar stand. But that maybe it's a fold or bend in the collar stand on the Iman's.

Edit: I don't know. It would sure make for a really wide collar stand. But, in looking at some of the main jacket pics it looks pretty wide also.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--12.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--12.jpg)

crismans
07-31-2010, 09:02 PM
the shape of the right side collar and collar end to me looks almost exact for the Bantu wind/truck drag stunt, Iman's, and hawaii jackets

I'm lost here. Are you saying that these jackets have similar features? Enough that you think they come from the same maker? I can buy that the Imam's and Hawaii are the same jacket (although that would entail that the Imam's is NOT calfskin), but the BW/truck drag jacket is an entirely different jacket.

Just trying to understand! :(

neutronbomb
07-31-2010, 10:51 PM
Yeah, I think the Bantu Wind/truck drag stunt jacket is an entirely separate jacket for sure.

However, gunslinger pointed out that the jacket's right side collar, collar shape, and collar end and the way it lays and everything is practically an exact match to Iman's jacket notwithstanding the different yokes, strap attachments, bi-swing slit, and pockets.

I just wanted to point out that Hawaii jacket's right side collar also has that shape and looks very, very similar to the Iman's.

And so, because of the collar and how super close the collars look to each other it makes me think the bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket, Iman's, and hawaii jackets are related by using the same person to make them, the same leather to make them, and/or elements of the exact same pattern to make them.

Gunslinger
07-31-2010, 10:56 PM
The problem is the collage that we are referring to above is wrong. I made it before I realised the BW and Imams are 2 different jackets. If you look closely at the different shots, you will see how the zipper stop on the wearer's right side is different from jacket to jacket. The BW one is definitely a match for Terry Leonard's, and the Imams is defin itely a match for the tample hallway one, but they don't match each other.

Importantly, NEITHER matches the Hawaii jacket's config, if you look at the hawaii / truck match below.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg)

neutronbomb
08-01-2010, 01:04 AM
It's hard for me to ignore the similarities between how the right collar looks along the length of where is folds over.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--9.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--9.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_211.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=211.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--8.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--8.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_353435978_e3b23891ab_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=353435978_e3b23891ab_o.jpg)

The same look to the possibly striations on the right side collar
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_RotLA-stembridge.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=RotLA-stembridge.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--10.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--10.jpg)

The way the jacket's left side zipper curves in such a similar curved arc.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_RotLA-stembridge.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=RotLA-stembridge.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_light.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=light.jpg)


And what appears to be round, pebble/scale looking shrunken lamb on the end of the sleeve.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_024.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=024.jpg)

Which I think looks very similar to what's on this sleeve
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_072.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=072.jpg)

The way the left hand collar stand edge/point looks.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--14.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--14.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_208.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=208.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_018.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=018.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--2.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_r95.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=r95.jpg)

The length and horizontal positioning with the same curve of the right hand strap.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/th_2869768871_831900958a_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/?action=view&current=2869768871_831900958a_o.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/th_2870598800_62f57c817c_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/?action=view&current=2870598800_62f57c817c_o.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/th_2870589928_b61d833f3b_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/?action=view&current=2870589928_b61d833f3b_o.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_353435978_e3b23891ab_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=353435978_e3b23891ab_o.jpg)

Which I think is different than the main jacket and the bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/th_2870594950_96e73b199e_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/?action=view&current=2870594950_96e73b199e_o.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/th_2870595504_d31a9402e1_o.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/?action=view&current=2870595504_d31a9402e1_o.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/th_bantugx6.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/?action=view&current=bantugx6.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/th_322-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/?action=view&current=322-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/th_RaidersFlap4.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Wilson%20Truck%20Drag%20Jacket/?action=view&current=RaidersFlap4.jpg)

crismans
08-01-2010, 01:16 AM
I see that NB made a post before I had this one done so I'm going to look over the visual evidence he's posted. That may very well change the opinion I'm posting here. Gunslinger and NB are approaching it from a visual perspective (which is the best way--dark science that it is) and I'm going at it from a logical perspective (to be blunt, they're just better at the visuals than I am). But, I like to play around with what they come up with and try to fit in the framework of what we've been told.

To that end: if, we go by Gunslinger's theory that there are two groupings of jackets, this seems to "fit" in all of the varied stories we've been told, except for one exception. In these two groupings are two jackets which resemble each other but not the other group of jackets (we're talking specific details here, obviously all the jackets resemble each other in a broad context.

1.) BW (low yoke), Imam's (high yoke, different strap attachments but otherwise similar)

2.) Main jacket (numerous, very visible striations) and the Hawaii jacket

If you match the shooting schedule to the appearances of these jackets it leads to the conclusion that (and this is going by what information we've been "told") that the BW and Imam's belong to Cooper. It's possible, I suppose, that Cooper made all four (or none) but to have two sets of two jackets that resemble each other but not the other group seems to indicate two manufacturers. I'm leaning toward Peter for this second group, but it remains to be seen.

Here's the exception. The above contradicts what we've been told that in that the jacket delivered to Tony was a Cooper. It seems more plausible that it was from Leather Concessionaires or another manufacturer. But the scenario would help alleviate inconsistencies if Cooper is saying he ONLY made his jackets out of calf. If you go by the above, then the Tony received wasn't a Cooper and then Tony's statements that it was lamb, not calfskin, don't contradict anyone. In fact, Peter's statements that he made his jackets out of lamb also match up. Everything seems to fit together if you take out the assertion that the jacket delivered to Tony was a Cooper.

crismans
08-01-2010, 01:34 AM
Here's a few good caps of the Imam's jacket to help our resident alchemists:

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679630-1280-720.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679710-1280-720.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679590-1280-720.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679678-1280-720.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679551-1280-720.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3600000/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana-jones-3679581-1280-720.jpg

Gunslinger
08-01-2010, 04:03 AM
Crismans, I think we can safely put any such claims about exactly what involvement Cooper had or didn't have into the "grain of salt" category. That source of info has been caught flat out lying on many occasions.

Your links don't seem to be working for me...?

NB, I'm with you re all those similarities to the Hawaii jacket. The only thing that throws me is the zipper gap and hardware (zipper stop) - what if the zip had to be replaced?

Hmm... what if the zip broke on the first day of shooting with it, so they replaced it, had it fixed, and then it reappeared in Tunisia?

In any event, if we can confirm or rule out these other little markers that don't relate to the zip itself we may get somewhere.

RCSignals
08-01-2010, 05:00 AM
It is also possible they are two different jackets, just from the same pattern as is the 'main hero'

So three jackets from the same pattern but each with the slight differences noted.
Then we have two similar jackets, low yoke. It has been said Neil Cooper made two jackets and they were made of calfskin. Could that be the two? But..it was also said wasn't it that Neil Cooper's jacket had a high yoke but it was lowered for the later fan offer 'street version'. However the 'blue label' which was a direct copy of (Cooper's?) movie jacket had a low yoke?

crismans
08-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Crismans, I think we can safely put any such claims about exactly what involvement Cooper had or didn't have into the "grain of salt" category. That source of info has been caught flat out lying on many occasions.

Oh, no doubt on that. That's the problem and why I think it's better to go by screen grabs for right now--you don't know what is fact and what is fiction with all of the stories, many of which contradict each other.




However the 'blue label' which was a direct copy of (Cooper's?) movie jacket had a low yoke?

The problem here (and I realize that I'm not saying anything relevatory) is that "Cooper's original patterns" have been applied to a lot of jackets. Some of these are jackets that have had adjustments to whatever original pattern existed. The Blue Label does resemble the BW jacket in several respects. What was told when it first came out was that it was based off the pattern of an original, unused stunt jacket.

neutronbomb
08-01-2010, 05:10 PM
I'm not seeing the zipper gap and hardware (zipper stop) differences between the hawaii and Iman's like you are. Maybe I'm overlooking it somehow.

It'd sure be nice to be able to sit down with kelly Kimball or whoever it was in charge of wardrobe throughout the entire filming for like an hour or so and go through a few pictures.



Crismans, I think we can safely put any such claims about exactly what involvement Cooper had or didn't have into the "grain of salt" category. That source of info has been caught flat out lying on many occasions.

Your links don't seem to be working for me...?

NB, I'm with you re all those similarities to the Hawaii jacket. The only thing that throws me is the zipper gap and hardware (zipper stop) - what if the zip had to be replaced?

Hmm... what if the zip broke on the first day of shooting with it, so they replaced it, had it fixed, and then it reappeared in Tunisia?

In any event, if we can confirm or rule out these other little markers that don't relate to the zip itself we may get somewhere.

Kt Templar
08-01-2010, 06:14 PM
The small pleat vent and small pockets of the Truck Drag/Terry Leonard, really make it stand out.

Crismans, those features will be very familiar to you now!

Before the new additions to the story, there was a theory that Berman's made some jackets in house, I suggest that the Leonard stunt is one of them and this may be the template for the ToD jackets (also possibly made in house at Berman's).

Gunslinger
08-01-2010, 09:24 PM
Interesting. KT, did you want to perhaps lay out everything from your point of view / understanding either here, or if there's a lot of it, in your own thread? It'd be great to be able to survey all the angles.

Gunslinger
08-01-2010, 09:29 PM
NB, if you look at the collar stand : zipper gap : zipper stop and compare the ratios across the jackets you'll see what I mean. The Imams & BW have a much bigger zip gap and also a longer zip stop compared to the Hawaii and main jacket.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg)

RCSignals
08-01-2010, 09:53 PM
I know what you mean Kt. it' as if it were a specially made jacket for the stunt or an altered regular screen jacket to accommodate the stunt, padding, etc.

I doubt it was a Wilson's as in the Nadoolman interviews she gives the impression the Wilson's were so much junk they weren't taken to England. Although others have speculated they did.

crismans
08-01-2010, 11:33 PM
The small pleat vent and small pockets of the Truck Drag/Terry Leonard, really make it stand out.

Crismans, those features will be very familiar to you now!

Before the new additions to the story, there was a theory that Berman's made some jackets in house, I suggest that the Leonard stunt is one of them and this may be the template for the ToD jackets (also possibly made in house at Berman's).


This is an interesting take on it and gives us something to think about.

If you go by the theory that Cooper made the ToD jacket, it seems reasonable that the BW still shot is his jacket. The overall pattern of these two jackets have many similar features.

Your theory also helps match the patterns up.

neutronbomb
08-03-2010, 02:19 AM
I like this. Does Neil Cooper fit in anywhere?



The small pleat vent and small pockets of the Truck Drag/Terry Leonard, really make it stand out.

Crismans, those features will be very familiar to you now!

Before the new additions to the story, there was a theory that Berman's made some jackets in house, I suggest that the Leonard stunt is one of them and this may be the template for the ToD jackets (also possibly made in house at Berman's).

Tyderium
08-05-2010, 12:39 PM
I was rereading KT's excellent research into the intricacies of ribby sheep skin from some time ago in another place and it sparked a thought. One of the leather experts he talked with (not jacket makers) Dr Scobie, identified characteristics of ribby sheep pelts and even helped with specifying the same from certain screen grabs of the striated Raiders jacket. At the end of the exchange Scobie offered that you could achieve the same type of thing using skins from different species. It was this that caught my eye in light of recent information. Is there a remote possibility that the MJ (main jacket) could actually be calf and a Cooper jacket? I thought it worth posing the question if only to shoot it down.

Kt Templar
08-05-2010, 01:37 PM
Thank you Tyderium. I feel that there was a bit of a disconnect that happened with that it is a very positive identification from someone who really would know. Kinda like the pattern on a diamondback rattlesnake.

Anyway, I was wandering around the leather merchants in East London a few weeks ago, one of them had his leather samples hanging up for people to sort through. Now I think most any of us here can spot a piece if ribby leather now so I pointed to the piece he had. Very specifically I wanted him to tell me what it was with no prompting.

My question, "This leather, what gives it these marks? Is it from the way it's processed?"

The answer... "That's merino, sheep leather."

I couldn't have asked for a clearer answer. :laugh:

This is an older piece that Peter has kicking around. Note it has the ribs but not so much of the cells.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8250/ribby1.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/ribby1.jpg/)

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/3333/ribby2.jpg (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/ribby2.jpg/)

Tyderium
08-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Yep, well it did seem unlikely.
Those are great samples.

neutronbomb
08-05-2010, 05:23 PM
:KT brings up a good topic. Something to look for when the blue ray disk comes out some day to help us track the jackets in the ROTLA movie. I've taken pics of jackets I've come across in stores that had lambskin in the label. Non of them said the type of tanning process, like shrunken grain or shrunken lamb or anything, but I thought since shrunken lamb can come in lots of different flavors I took photos of ones I thought had the characteristics. I found it interesting how the pattern and look of the "texture" of the jacket changed so much across same panels making me wonder in addition to variations in the tanning method/solution itself if different parts of the lambskin react differently to the process/solution.


NON-INDY JACKETS LOCATED IN VARIOUS STORES:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1878.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1878.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1877.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1877.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1879.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1879.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0793.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0793.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0794.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0794.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0795.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0795.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0796.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0796.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0797.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0797.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0798.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0798.jpg)

I find this outlined section with the longer lines and more long rectangular looking boxes reminding me of Peter's and Tony's 30 year hides. And the next photo too.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0800-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0800-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0811.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0811.jpg)

VERSUS same jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0802.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0802.jpg)

This shows some of the different varieties across different panels.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0810.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0810.jpg)

and this one.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0806.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0806.jpg)


HERE's A COMPARISON LINE-UP for comments and idea:

PETER's 30 YEAR OLD SKIN:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_skin3.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=skin3.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_linedlambfj4.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=linedlambfj4.jpg)


NON-INDY.
Though this particular picture doesn't include what I can perceive as striations, the jacket is covered in them as can be seen in some of the above photos and in the bottom half of the second photo below.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0794.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0794.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0800.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0800.jpg)

TONY's 30 YEAR OLD SKIN:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_Shrunken.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=Shrunken.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0710.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0710.jpg)

TONY's ORIGINAL INDY 1 SKIN:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_CIMG4499-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=CIMG4499-1.jpg)

Kt Templar
08-05-2010, 05:41 PM
Just a little caveat to that. The skin that Peter has/had is just in a pile of skins. There is no indication as to it's age. It could be 10 years old, it could be 30.

I could have bought the merino off the merchant and it would have been new.

The more regular celled parts seem to be from the sides or belly of the animal. The ribbed lines run at right angles to the spine.... obviously! :)

You can get the celled stuff processed into cowhide. It's the ribbed lines that are sheep/merino specific.

BTW NB, that is some gnarly leather you found there.

I'm not entirely convinced that i want a jacket made entirely of very ribby stuff, I saw a woman with a 3/4 length shearling with the outside very (pushed) ribby. Looked like an elephants scrotum.

RCSignals
08-05-2010, 06:14 PM
I was rereading KT's excellent research into the intricacies of ribby sheep skin from some time ago in another place and it sparked a thought. One of the leather experts he talked with (not jacket makers) Dr Scobie, identified characteristics of ribby sheep pelts and even helped with specifying the same from certain screen grabs of the striated Raiders jacket. At the end of the exchange Scobie offered that you could achieve the same type of thing using skins from different species. It was this that caught my eye in light of recent information. Is there a remote possibility that the MJ (main jacket) could actually be calf and a Cooper jacket? I thought it worth posing the question if only to shoot it down.


Yes it was good research. I'm not so sure that he actually meant different species such as COW as opposed to sheep?
Scobie was also contacted by neutronbomb (I think it was Scobie) and he discovered some further information, perhaps NB will relate it.

I think the main thing is those lines come from Merino sheep. Other breeds or species of sheep have other skin effects. The shrunken lamb or shrunken grain process, which seems to have varying names from tanners, is used primarily on sheep and lamb skins as those skins react best with best results. All it does is cause a further 'enhancement' of the skin cells/grain of the skin.
The process as it is known only goes back to the '60s or '70s, becoming widely used in the early 1980s, and it is possible prior to that a similar effect occurred on sheep and lamb skin from older primitive tanning methods.
The latest photo posted of the older lamb skin may be of that. The amount of effect in the shrunken grain process can be varied by the tanner, ranging from almost smooth to greatly exaggerated as in NBs jacket.
The jacket in the movie and the one Tony had (that one not necessarily being Merino but lamb still) were quite grained, as testified by Tony, and Yojimbo in his research of HD screen shots etc.
Just saying whether or not one 'believes' in the shrunken grain tanning process or not, those particular jackets in the movie were very grained and that same effect and look is seen in what we've come to call shrunken grain or shrunken lamb hides.

If anyone can produce a hide from another species such as cow or calf that has the same look, especially with the so called striations or Merino bubbly lines, and has not been created through 'stamping or embossing', please do it! Everyone here would like to see!

crismans
08-05-2010, 08:34 PM
I'd would also like to see a jacket where vegetable oil was injected into the hide. This process has been mentioned before but I've never seen a jacket where this process was used.

Gunslinger
08-05-2010, 09:46 PM
The thing is, those striation lines are on pretty much every panel of the Main Hero jacket. If you watch a decent resolution version of the movie, and go frame by frame and track them like I did, you'll find they're over pretty much the whole RH chest panel, plus the back and the arms, especially visible on the RH arm. The ones on the LH chest panel are more subtle and there are not as many, but they're there.

Of course, there are likely more striations on the jacket that I souldn't see given that I could only make out the ones that were lit & in focus & close enough to camera.

neutronbomb
08-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Looked like an elephants scrotum.


LoL. Well you know.....one man's poison is another's tequila.

I do remember now you saying that it was a piece of veg tanned washed lamb Peter had had in his shop for a couple years and that you were umming and ahhing over getting a jacket made in it. Did you ever decide or did the lady wearing elephant scrotum dissuade you? It's interesting to me to note that our different jacket makers are referencing/calling what looks like the same skin by different names which is confusing.

I did ask Tony what other skins/hides from different animals would look like if they were exposed to the shrunken lamb process and he mentioned they would all react and look different and the properties would be different. I haven't heard if other hides/skins from different animals like cow/calf, goat, etc. will shrink 40% and have stretchy/elastic properties like lambskin does when exposed to the shrunken grain process. But to date, I haven't seen any hides that resemble the uneven, non-uniform, etc. look that shrunken lambskin seems to exhibit.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0726.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0726.jpg)

Here's one from what I understand is cowhide for comparison.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_DSC02076.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=DSC02076.jpg)

I've always found the sleeve on these two screen caps interesting. Calf or lamb?

I personally believe this is the Iman's jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_024.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=024.jpg)

The "main" jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown.jpg)

And though there just isn't enough detail to be sure, the right side of the chest panel from HF's perspective reminds me of the circled area of the second picture in thumbnail size. Just things that catch my eye.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/jacket-RotLAbw.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_0800-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_0800-1.jpg)

RCSignals
08-05-2010, 11:58 PM
I'd would also like to see a jacket where vegetable oil was injected into the hide. This process has been mentioned before but I've never seen a jacket where this process was used.


That's something done after tanning and is called Veau Crispe or Veau Crispe Togo.

Done primarily to Cowhide, and seems to be to prepare it to accept stamping or embossing to look like other skins, usually something exotic. It could also make stamping logos easier and maybe more 'permanent'
It's use a great deal for women's ultra high dollar hand bags.

neutronbomb
08-06-2010, 12:18 AM
Gunslinger. This is one of the screencap comparisons that gives me the idea the Iman's might also be the Hawaii. It could be coincidence, but the almost perfect exact nature of how HF's left side collar, the curve into the collar stand, the sharp edge of the collar stand, the angle, etc. seem to me to really look identical.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_208-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=208-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_r95.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=r95.jpg)

And then of course it's just speculating, but I see HF's right side collar and think this may be how it evolved:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/th_208-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/?action=view&current=208-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TRUCK%20CHASE/th_318-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TRUCK%20CHASE/?action=view&current=318-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_r95.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=r95.jpg)

Where's Platon anyway. He's the one who originally got me started down this path. The only one he has incorrect that I can see is he has a ravenbar in the hawaii set.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTA%20-%20Temple%20and%20Hawaii%20jackets/th_collar2zi7.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTA%20-%20Temple%20and%20Hawaii%20jackets/?action=view&current=collar2zi7.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTA%20-%20Temple%20and%20Hawaii%20jackets/th_collar1jt3.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTA%20-%20Temple%20and%20Hawaii%20jackets/?action=view&current=collar1jt3.jpg)

RCSignals
08-06-2010, 12:31 AM
Interesting.

If the Imam's jacket is the Hawaii then it was made of lamb, not calfskin (Tony had the Hawaii jacket, which was made of lamb). Others have said the Imam's jacket is one of Coopers, so following the same line of Cooper only making jackets out of calfskin, the Imams if the same as the Hawaii jacket cannot be one of Coopers.

jasonalun
08-06-2010, 01:08 AM
I don't think the Imam's jacket is the Hawaii jacket, and here's why - I think the collar stand/zipper stop construction is different between them. Here's my analysis in screen shots. Agree? Disagree?

http://a.imageshack.us/img132/1488/jacketcompare.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/jacketcompare.jpg/)

neutronbomb
08-06-2010, 01:19 AM
Well it's just something I'm considering because of all the things I'm outlining that seem so similar. Even if they're not the same jacket, could they look so similar being made with different leather and/or different jacket maker? I don't know. Just a discussion point.

shape and similarity of HF's right side collar.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_018-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=018-1.jpg)

and the beautiful matching curve of the jacket's left side.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--15-1-1-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_RotLA-stembridge.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=RotLA-stembridge.jpg)

Gunslinger
08-06-2010, 01:30 AM
NB - If you recall, AGES ago I posted a bunch of shots with this same argument that those 2 jackets do seem to match, but once I hit the zip gap / stop, etc. differences, it threw a spanner in the works.

Now I have access to some better images, I can follow up these things you are mentioning in more detail, but am a bit flat-strap at the moment. Gimme a week or so? We may find that they are the same jacket but they had to switch a busted zipper, thus changing that gap.

Hmm - maybe given the zipper Tony examined was "crammed" - a quick & dirty replacement may have been what caused it... :-\

neutronbomb
08-06-2010, 01:36 AM
This is a good one to look at too Dr. Jones for the collar stand. It's the idea where I'm considering that there isn't a zip gap like the bantu wind or a zip replacement to make them the same, but simply a bit of a bend or kink in the collar stand gunslinger.

This is the Hawaii jacket. I think the jackets' left chest are identical matches.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_Hawaii-truck-comp.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=Hawaii-truck-comp.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_r95.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=r95.jpg)

I think these two are the Iman's. I'm wondering though if they're the Hawaii also. It looks to me that there could be a bend in the collar stand rather than where it ends. It would make sense for the cab fight scene also. Why use the Iman's and then the Hawaii and not just one throughout starting from the bullet hole scene.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--11.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--11.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_temple-light.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=temple-light.jpg)

The bend in the collar that I'm considering rather than the place where the collar stand ends where the red dots are in this collage by gunslinger.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/th_Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Yojimbo%20Pics/?action=view&current=Yojimbo-Bantu-Imam-Temple-Truck-Stu.jpg)

RCSignals
08-06-2010, 01:41 AM
......

Hmm - maybe given the zipper Tony examined was "crammed" - a quick & dirty replacement may have been what caused it... :-\


Could be, but it didn't seem like Tony thought there were signs of the zipper having been changed.

He did say the zipper was too long for the jacket and had been 'crammed in' which put under a sort of compression giving it the 'wave' that was permanent.
Tony even counted the number of teeth of the zipper.

There are stories out there though of jackets having had failing/broken zippers, but left that way.

jasonalun
08-06-2010, 02:12 AM
Yeah, postulating a zipper change seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Why not just say they look similar, but are different jackets? Why create just-so stories and leaps in logic to make them the same jacket? I'm not trying to be an a##, I'm just trying to understand what you are after.
BTW, my mother is a tailor and she has told me (when I wanted the zipper changed in one of my leather jackets) that changing a zipper in a leather jacket is a royal pain in the you-know-what. It's not a quickie job. Just to bear in mind when considering all this. If a zipper busted, they'd probably just toss the jacket aside and use another one or just ignore it. After all, after the Raven bar scene he never zips it up again anyway.

neutronbomb
08-06-2010, 03:27 AM
you're a tough crowd Dr. Jones :-*

Not after anything I guess. Just enjoying the tracking jackets and worrying the possibilities; an idea I'm kicking around. And yes gunslinger, I do remember your comparison examples. You still have me half convinced from it.

jasonalun
08-06-2010, 04:35 AM
:angel: Who me? Well, someone has to stir the pot a little to keep things lively, eh? :D

Actually, reading it all over again, I do see your point, nb. But I wonder are you saying then that the Imam's jacket wouldn't be a Cooper and hence (if a certain someone is to be believed about what Cooper said) not made of calfskin, or that the Hawaii jacket was made by Cooper as well? If the Imam's jacket isn't a Cooper, are any of them? I guess the La Rochelle jacket...

Gunslinger
08-06-2010, 04:57 AM
I figure checking this issue out will give us an answer one way or another. I'm kind of set in my thoughts re this now, and am finding it hard to "see" anything other than what I "see". But as we have found, that leads to the dark side, so I'm happy to play devil's advocate.

But you are skating on -very- thin ice, pursuing this Neutronbomb. This is your last warning to keep it between the rails. :D

jasonalun
08-06-2010, 05:15 AM
But you are skating on -very- thin ice, pursuing this Neutronbomb. This is your last warning to keep it between the rails. :D


Classic!
:laugh: :laugh:

All you need is a big handlebar mustache...

Kt Templar
08-06-2010, 06:33 AM
I don't think the hawaii is the Imans. The hawaii has a pretty distinctive 'open flat' collar action going on, whist the imans has an upright collar plus the crammed wavy zip right side.

I still believe they are 2 distinct jackets.

crismans
08-06-2010, 03:36 PM
If the Imam's jacket isn't a Cooper, are any of them? I guess the La Rochelle jacket...

I definitely lean this way. I'm not sure of any of the other jackets. Not saying it's not possible, but I'm positive either way. If you go by what has been "put out there" and compare it to the shooting schedule, the Imam's looks like the best candidate to be a Cooper's other than the BW (La Rochelle).

If so, then you get into is the Imam's jacket the Hawaii. If that is so, then you get into the contradiction in what the leather is that RC has outlined...

PLATON
09-08-2010, 08:49 AM
Hi guys,

I generally agree with the storlyline as presented earlier by Gunslinger.
I guess the Imam jacket is the same as the Hawaii jacket. There is no evidence to the contrary.

As far as how many jackets were there, I also think it was 3.

If you read Nadoolman's interview to A5, she mentions she ordered jackets from Wilson, not Cooper.
All those jackets (I think it was 10) were rejected, so guess again, due to budget limitations ordered 3 in the next run from Berman. Berman now, I find it highly unlikely that he went to Cooper for the jackets...

All seems OK till now, expect the contradiction of Peter's sayings, i.e. that he made like 10 jackets.

Now why the Bantu Wind jacket has different yoke and side straps? Classic Wested.
Peter made the 1st jaket (Bantu Wind) in a hurry and send it to Nadoolman.

Then when he got the OK, did not have a jacket to copy all the details from. He had (or did not have) the patterns. A jacket maker would endeavor to make a jacket with the same measurements that would 'look' the same. Believe me it is very easy to mess up the details.

So, (I guess again) the 2 other jackets came out almost the same, i.e. high yoke, same side straps.

Now, if TN ever had the Hawaii/Imam jacket? Sorry but I doubt it.

At least, I was never able to see the similarities in the back of those jackets.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2243/imamsyoke.jpg
(Notice also the sleeve length in comparison with back length)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4637/dsc07448.jpg


If you have the 'real thing' and are able to copy it, you can't go wrong, can you?

As you all know, TN was very talented in jacket making. He managed to duplicate the TOD jacket VERY successfully without having the original to copy the pattern from. And the LC jacket too. Not to mention that every CS jacket he sold to us is exactly the same as the film jacket.

So why did he fail to copy the Raiders jacket? Why his jackets DO NOT look like the film jacket?
I agree he got the collar right. Looks like the Hawaii collar. He has the chest area/body area right.
But what's with this back?

And finally guys, when are we going to be able to get an accurate copy of the Main Hero (temple) jacket?

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 09:04 AM
Here's the reason why I think there are 4 - The Imams jacket and the Hawaii are different:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg

Imams is the bottom right - see how the collar stand and then gap to zipper stop proportions simply don't match the Hawaii?

PLATON
09-08-2010, 06:07 PM
You mean that on the Hawaii jacket the top of the zipper is situated exactly below the collar stand, while in the Imam's there is a gap between them.

Right? (if that's the case, then I agree with you)

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 07:25 PM
Hi guys,

I generally agree with the storlyline as presented earlier by Gunslinger.
I guess the Imam jacket is the same as the Hawaii jacket. There is no evidence to the contrary.

As far as how many jackets were there, I also think it was 3.

If you read Nadoolman's interview to A5, she mentions she ordered jackets from Wilson, not Cooper.
All those jackets (I think it was 10) were rejected, so guess again, due to budget limitations ordered 3 in the next run from Berman. Berman now, I find it highly unlikely that he went to Cooper for the jackets...

All seems OK till now, expect the contradiction of Peter's sayings, i.e. that he made like 10 jackets.

Now why the Bantu Wind jacket has different yoke and side straps? Classic Wested.
Peter made the 1st jaket (Bantu Wind) in a hurry and send it to Nadoolman.

Then when he got the OK, did not have a jacket to copy all the details from. He had (or did not have) the patterns. A jacket maker would endeavor to make a jacket with the same measurements that would 'look' the same. Believe me it is very easy to mess up the details.

So, (I guess again) the 2 other jackets came out almost the same, i.e. high yoke, same side straps.

Now, if TN ever had the Hawaii/Imam jacket? Sorry but I doubt it.

At least, I was never able to see the similarities in the back of those jackets.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2243/imamsyoke.jpg
(Notice also the sleeve length in comparison with back length)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4637/dsc07448.jpg


If you have the 'real thing' and are able to copy it, you can't go wrong, can you?

As you all know, TN was very talented in jacket making. He managed to duplicate the TOD jacket VERY successfully without having the original to copy the pattern from. And the LC jacket too. Not to mention that every CS jacket he sold to us is exactly the same as the film jacket.

So why did he fail to copy the Raiders jacket? Why his jackets DO NOT look like the film jacket?
I agree he got the collar right. Looks like the Hawaii collar. He has the chest area/body area right.
But what's with this back?

And finally guys, when are we going to be able to get an accurate copy of the Main Hero (temple) jacket?









Platon you need to qualify that with it is your ASSUMPTION that TN did not have an original jacket to qualify.
It is your GUESS.

TN was not a liar. You are in essence calling him a liar. He had the jacket, people have even stated they saw the jacket. He stated where in the movie that jacket first appeared. He did not state any other scene because he did not know any other specific scene.
'Hawaii jacket' were not his words.


The back is correct to the jacket he had. We've seen many photos even teh one you posted above, where the TN jacket length looks right on the wearer.
you typically show one scene with a long looking back, in fact it looks oddly long line the image has been distorted. I'm not saying by you.

as for an accurate main Hero...have you seen Gunslinger's jacket?

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 07:30 PM
At this point I still agree with Gunslinger, the Imam's jacket is different from the jacket TN had.
I still think there are basically 4 jackets that show in the movie. Was it not said at one point that Robert Watts even stated there were 4 jackets?

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 09:07 PM
You mean that on the Hawaii jacket the top of the zipper is situated exactly below the collar stand, while in the Imam's there is a gap between them.

Right? (if that's the case, then I agree with you)


Yes, and I think the collar stand itself is a different height, and the contour of the front edge is different. It's more bendy on the Imams.

The Character
09-09-2010, 12:13 AM
Hmmm that back looks odd because the shoulders look too wide .... its causing the back panel to buckle in on itself by the look of things ... According to KT and Peter the film jackets had shoulder pads .. Peter even supplied jackets with SP's for a while until 'fans' asked for them to be deleted .. thats why most jackets (all mine) tend to hang at the shoulders ... but that one looks too wide in addition to looking big generally and thus i suspect the back panel is not hanging correctly IMO .... just an observation.

Any other shots of it? ..... i doubt Tony would mess up... these were his P&J ..... and jackets once patterned up are all standard so proportions don't vary. As stated other example look good.

RCSignals
09-09-2010, 12:51 AM
Did the film jackets have shoulder pads? I don't see evidence of them in what is on screen.
I didn't realise Peter said the actual film jackets had them.
It's been said some of the off the rackets have them, and some early fan offering jackets had them. The mysterious so-called bell hop apparently had them, suit like shoulder pads.

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 01:22 AM
zipper gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1916-1.jpg


Here's the reason why I think there are 4 - The Imams jacket and the Hawaii are different:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Yojimbo-Collar-Stand-Comparison.jpg

Imams is the bottom right - see how the collar stand and then gap to zipper stop proportions simply don't match the Hawaii?

Front collar edge and shape a match:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/DVDSnap1925-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/DVDSnap1516-1.jpg

Tyderium
09-09-2010, 07:11 AM
If there is a gap on the Imam Jacket then the left side should also look like the left side of the Main Jacket where there is clearly a gap from the zip stop to the collar stand. Do we have any clear images of where the zipper terminates on the left collar area of the Imam jacket? It may prove more conclusive.


http://a.imageshack.us/img189/3898/382150844769627a2eeo.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/382150844769627a2eeo.jpg/)


If this turns out to be the case then, excluding the BW Jacket, out of the now three remaining Ford screen jackets, the Hawaii is the odd one out with the zip configuration.
I agree with Bomb that the shape and even texturing of the Imam and Hawaii collar is pretty much identical, so it is intriguing.

Gunslinger
09-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Ok, so I went back and looked at the Imams house scene and all the Hawaii scenes frame by frame. I took a ton of grabs of each, looking for identifiers anywhere - collar region, the left arm, chest panels, pockets, etc. No dice on the collar area, IMO its not a match. See below (click the thumb and then hit the photobucket image if you want the proper, high-res version):

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Imams-vs-Hawaii-Collar-Stand--Zip-Gap.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Imams-vs-Hawaii-Collar-Stand--Zip-Gap.jpg)
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Imams-vs-Hawaii-Collar-Stand--Zip-Gap.jpg

HOWEVER...

I found something VERY interesting. (Well, I was interested :) ) Now, bearing in mind the Imam's collar stand / zipper gap, check out the double rows of striations on the RH chest panel on the Imam's I just found:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h17m34s52.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h17m25s229.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h05m58s16.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h04m51s127.jpg

Now, unless I'm delusional, check out what I think is the SECOND Hawaii jacket - the Imam's. Notice how its collar stand-zip stop is the same as the Imams (/BW), and the lower row of the double striations you see on the Imam's:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h39m23s110.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h39m17s32.jpg

Thoughts?

The implications? We have at least one more jacket that has now been identified as having the striations, in a matching part of the chest panel as the Main Jacket. But it can't be the main jacket because the other bits don't match. It also lends credence to the leather of the Imam's coming from the same source as the Main Jacket. So, potentially far more consistency across jackets than we may have thought... Hmm...

PLATON
09-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Maybe he was wearing the Imam jacket on the plane, I don't see any striations on the Imam scene. Can you point an arrow?

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 02:51 PM
I was saving the chest striations for later Gunslinger, you stole my thunder :D

But, I can see we will be battling this out for awhile because on page 7 I thought I showed a pretty good screencap of the jacket used in the Hawaii scene having a big zipper gap. It's there. I feel it's being ignored for some reason. My votes to include it in the collage ??? ;D I also feel like the collar is a match, again shown. I suspect part of the problem is the Imam's scene is really washed out.

You're telling me you'd rather say there were two jackets in Hawaii when one presents to you as having a similar feature to The Imam Jacket with the chest "striation" seen in the plane? ??? ;) Again, I'm thinking the Imam's is a terrible scene for washing things out, but then we see it in natural sunlight and this isn't a hinderance to it being the Imam's? It's just seems there's a bit of a refusal to acknowledge the zipper gap is shown, or the other two features that match the Imam in the main part of the Hawaii scene that I've laid out so far in my thread also match The Imam Jacket like the chest striation you've shown (aargh.....still can't believe you beat me to it :mad:) LOL. Anyway, it just seems pretty selective to me. I guess it's what attribute is deemed important or not to each individual when analyzing this stuff, but it's striking me that you are choosing to show only one aspect of how the jacket in the Hawaii scene presents in a very certain way and at very certain angle and ignoring anything else in the scene that shows something very, very different. I'm just saying to do it justice and to be thorough we need to consider All information available and and examine from a multitude of angles and scenes, not just discard what we don't like. Like The Main Hero Jacket rounded vs square optical illusion thing right? It doesn't help to just show one angle with one aspect of how it presents in a certain way, when there are many, many, many instances of The main hero Jacket's collar stand being squared off with a sharp point throughout the entire movie. Sometimes within just a few frames of the one that's being held up as showing rounded.

I don't know. I hope I'm not sounding too harsh or coming on to strong or whatever, I just feel if we make a conclusive statement like look here, this is rounded, or look here there is NO zipper gap and then we show where it isn't rounded and that there IS a zipper gap that now that definitive, conclusive statement doesn't hold.

So far I think these were the primary objections for The Imam Jacket being used in the Hawaii scene:

1. The first objection was that the collar doesn't stand up and present like The Imam. Overcome.
2. The second objection was that the zipper doesn't lay open and present like The Imam. Overcome.
3. The third objection was that the zipper gap didn't match. Overcome.

I think we have to acknowledge this photo showing the zipper gap in the jacket used for the Hawaii scene:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1916-1.jpg

Compared to the Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1984-1.jpg

Here's The Main Hero Jacket:

NO zipper gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1432-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1433.jpg

Presto: Zipper gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/th_DVDSnap1288.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1288.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/DVDSnap1288.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/DVDSnap1288-1.jpg

Compared to the Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1984-1.jpg


I think we have to accept there is quite a bit of play involved with the zipper gap and that's it's not quite so static and set in stone. It moves and changes based on angle, camera, 2 dimensional, and movement of the jacket, collar, and zipper.

You know we see a lot of the same stuff so at least that's half the battle. It's just we interpret some of it differently.

PLATON
09-09-2010, 03:03 PM
RC wrote


Platon you need to qualify that with it is your ASSUMPTION that TN did not have an original jacket to qualify.
It is your GUESS.

TN was not a liar. You are in essence calling him a liar. He had the jacket, people have even stated they saw the jacket. He stated where in the movie that jacket first appeared. He did not state any other scene because he did not know any other specific scene.
'Hawaii jacket' were not his words.


The back is correct to the jacket he had. We've seen many photos even teh one you posted above, where the TN jacket length looks right on the wearer.
you typically show one scene with a long looking back, in fact it looks oddly long line the image has been distorted. I'm not saying by you.

as for an accurate main Hero...have you seen Gunslinger's jacket?

My ASSUMPTION or GUESS comes from the fact that I think that the jacket TN offered with HF specs does not look like any jacket on screen. Simple as that.

I don't call anyone a liar, but I don't believe anyone either. Why should I believe someone that says the contrary to what my own eyes see?

If TN was no liar, then he was perhaps misled to believe this was the jacket.

You are forgetting also the FACT that TN, who 'measured even the teeth of the zipper and reproduced the jacket he was given stitch by stitch first made the 001 jacket and when he was boooooed by the fans, changed it and made the 000 which was different. We were never given explanations why the 001 was different than the 000.

You are forgetting also that TN was given 2 jackets and he didn't even know which one to copy, until later we were told that one jacket belonged to a Chinese guy and the other was brought by Frank.

The truth is so much distorted that I doubt we will ever find it.

My point is that if TN's jacket looked exactly like the film jacket, not the main hero, but at least the Hawaii jacket, then I would have absolutely nothing to say against it.

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 03:27 PM
Platon!

How do YOU know that 001 was made before 000?

Explanations though have indeed been given many, many times and posted and made available for you to read in posts that you were participating in. I suspect the issue is you don't like the explanation, not that they've never been available. Of course, if you refuse to believe them and choose to believe that Tony tells lies, then that of course is your prerogative. I certainly won't try to force you to believe anything you don't wish. Or if you wish to believe that Tony was fooled somehow, then that is your right to believe what you want.

"he didn't even know which one to copy, until later we were told that one jacket belonged to a Chinese guy"

Platon, I'm concerned for you. I don't know if it's on purpose or not but I wonder sometimes how you choose what to remember, also that "Chinese" guy isn't probably the best thing to say. Robert Sparks is a producer in Hong Kong and he is a member of this board as faststreetsofhongkong. He's explained his story before. All you have to do is READ it. It's disturbing that you'd say Tony couldn't even figure out what jacket he was supposed to copy (again, how do YOU know) when faststreetsofhongkong is the guy you are talking about and he is a member of this board.

I'm just concerned for you sometimes Platon :-*




You are forgetting also the FACT that TN, who 'measured even the teeth of the zipper and reproduced the jacket he was given stitch by stitch first made the 001 jacket and when he was boooooed by the fans, changed it and made the 000 which was different. We were never given explanations why the 001 was different than the 000.

You are forgetting also that TN was given 2 jackets and he didn't even know which one to copy, until later we were told that one jacket belonged to a Chinese guy and the other was brought by Frank.

RCSignals
09-09-2010, 09:21 PM
Well when I was working with Tony to have my second Raiders jacker made with the striations/ribby lines on the chest panel, Tony did tell me the jacket he had did not have those ribby lines on the chest panel. If that helps here.

RCSignals
09-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Platon what you first need to realise is Tony did not number the jackets in sequence. The number of jacket 001 means nothing other than it was available when the person ordered the jacket. The only jacket the number means anything is #000. It was the first jacket made, the 'pattern jacket' so to say from the original.
You may have seen #001 first but don't let that influence you. There were many made before it that had higher numbers.
The look and details of jacket #001 have been explained, even though you keep ignoring them. That is your prerogative I guess.

Gunslinger
09-09-2010, 09:44 PM
Bryan, are you trying to say I'm being stubborn? Moi!? :D ;)

But seriously, I went through those scenes with a fine tooth comb and a fresh eye, trying to look for that collar stand to hit the right angle. Of course, it's very possible to miss things so I just went and looked at that key shot you note.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h27m31s209.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h27m31s209.png)

This isn't the exact frame, but I've taken about half a dozen grabs of that shot and its the most indicative of what I'm seeing; which is the same as the big "hero"ish emerging from the shadows shot, as opposed to the kind of 2-sectioned thing before the zip stop. But here, as he moves, I honestly think there is an illusion happening where a kink in the collar stand itself is making it look like the Imam's. I can't make a collage at the moment to show this but will follow up. Long story short, the kink doesn't line up with the base of the collar stand/lining hem when in profile in the way it would need to for it to be the Imams.

But this Imams config DOES jump out a mile at me in the cockpit. 100% concede it. I also thought that maybe the water could have stretched the leather of the other one out, but that seems too far fetched. It looks too much like the double-lumpy thing that we see on the Imams & BW.

The other thing is that there are so many things I can't rationalise that match. LIke the texture on the collar. It's pretty full-on on the hawaii, and we see the Imams collar pretty clearly. I don't see the match. Ditto other areas. I'm tryin', man! I'm tryin'! I was looking for that little dimple on his shoulder - a bunch of stuff, but no luck.

LOL re the striations. You remind me of when I'm playing poker and someone complains when I jag the flush on the river hand. My response is always, "Well, you should have bet out to stop me GETTING to the river!" :D

But at least we're agreeing on something that we're seeing!

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 10:09 PM
LOL. Hey, I'm likely just sitting back here smokin' rope 8) ???

I'll start a zipper gap thread and we'll see if we can't figure it out.

PLATON
09-09-2010, 10:22 PM
Platon!

How do YOU know that 001 was made before 000?

Explanations though have indeed been given many, many times and posted and made available for you to read in posts that you were participating in. I suspect the issue is you don't like the explanation, not that they've never been available. Of course, if you refuse to believe them and choose to believe that Tony tells lies, then that of course is your prerogative. I certainly won't try to force you to believe anything you don't wish. Or if you wish to believe that Tony was fooled somehow, then that is your right to believe what you want.

"he didn't even know which one to copy, until later we were told that one jacket belonged to a Chinese guy"

Platon, I'm concerned for you. I don't know if it's on purpose or not but I wonder sometimes how you choose what to remember, also that "Chinese" guy isn't probably the best thing to say. Robert Sparks is a producer in Hong Kong and he is a member of this board as faststreetsofhongkong. He's explained his story before. All you have to do is READ it. It's disturbing that you'd say Tony couldn't even figure out what jacket he was supposed to copy (again, how do YOU know) when faststreetsofhongkong is the guy you are talking about and he is a member of this board.

I'm just concerned for you sometimes Platon


All I know is that the 000 was presented much later than the 001.
I remember that there was talk about two jackets that nobody knew which was the real thing. Maybe Tony did, but we were left in the dark. The name of Mr Sparks came up later and told us his story. All we knew in the beginning it was "some Chinese guy" or something (btw I don't suppose it is an insult to call someone Chinese). My apologies if I offended anyone.

Don't know if Tony was able to say which jacket was which, we were told that 'he chose which jacket to copy'. At an early stage we didn't know what was happening. Then the knowers of things told us that one of the two jackets was delivered by Frank, so Tony copied that.

I don't suppose that 001 was made after 000 because the person who ordered it did not say he made any particular requests about his jacket. Also, the 000 looks like every other jacket made after it. The 001 looks like none other.

I don't recall the explanations about the look and details of jacket #001 and I can't look at the old posts at the other fan site.
Glad to hear if anyone can refresh my memory.

Sometimes my memory does not serve me very well. I have been absent from this 'sport' for a while and forgetting things.
Also, there's many many posts and threads I haven't read in full due to lack of time. Pardon my ignorance please.

Sorry if I was carried away, but I was frustrated.

One last thing, the jacket is something that many of us have devoted endless hours (including myself).
I would consider myself knowledgeable regarding the jacket, but here I want to make a distinction. I know much more about how the jacket appears on screen, what it looks like and its details, rather than it's background story. The difference is that the details I could observe by myself so they stick into my memory. The background, I could not discover myself, just read the stories of other people. That's why I tend to forget. Sorry. I also won't try to force you to believe anything you don't wish.

I am glad we discuss these things and it really doesn't matter if we don't agree. It is still interesting to read various opinions.

All the best

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 10:41 PM
I appreciate your post Platon and your honesty in how you feel. Maybe we'll get a few threads rolling about jacket 001 and the explanation. I certainly have all the pics of jacket 001 for us to look at. Maybe it's good to move all this type of discussion to some different threads and not clog up Gunslingers tracking Jackets in Raiders thread with it.

At some point maybe faststreetsofhongkong can clear up any discrepancies on what actually went down with his Leather Concessionaires jacket he sent to Tony and the discussions he had about it with Tony versus what various stories have been told about those happenings elsewhere.

RCSignals
09-09-2010, 11:55 PM
Platon, the owner of #001 may not have asked for special requests but Tony did say to me personally and it was even posted at the time, that Tony asked the customer if he could make some improvements to the jacket. That is what he did and why the jacket 001 looks as it does. Tony later made the customer another jacket without the 'improvement' changes.

Don't hang on to that 'story' of two jackets. Tony may have had two jackets in the shop, one being the original and one being 'Mr Sparks' jacket, but there was never any confusion with Tony of which was which. Those not understanding that made up stories to suit themselves. 'Mr Sparks' BTW is a member here and has already posted some of this.

Tyderium
09-10-2010, 02:25 AM
Yep and I believe at the time Tony made the distinction between the two jackets by referencing one of them, in his words, as 'the jacket that matters'.

neutronbomb
09-11-2010, 05:24 PM
Comparison to Raven Bar striation marks:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h39m23s110.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/DVDSnap1168-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/th_DVDSnap1153.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1153.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/DVDSnap1170-1.jpg
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h39m17s32.jpg

Gunslinger
09-11-2010, 11:06 PM
They ARE very close aren't they? For all we know they used the Main jacket for the in-cockpit scene. When I first saw the striations, the only thing that throws me is those arm striations. On the Main jacket, they are horizontal:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders2010-05-22-14h59m27s253-1.jpg

But with all those wrinkles, who knows?

...there IS the outwardly waving upper zipper...

Gunslinger
09-11-2010, 11:14 PM
It's pretty close, isn't it? There's even the upper zipper that waves out. The thing that threw me when I first was them is that the striations on the upper arm seem to go the wrong way:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders2010-05-22-14h59m27s253-1.jpg

...but with all those wrinkles who knows? Maybe they used the Main Jacket for the cockpit scene only in Hawaii, for whatever reason. For the time being, we may need to chalk it up to being one of the shots we need Bluray to get more out of, but it's the motion blur thats the killer.

Hollywood
09-15-2010, 01:38 PM
According to the Western Costume records that I personally observed, and took notes in the 1990's, here are the break downs for the jackets. Please remember this does NOT include the Wilson's Leather jackets that were discarded and not used in the film.

Harrison Ford Jackets: 1-4 (Hero) 5-9 (Stunt)

Hollywood

RCSignals
09-15-2010, 07:57 PM
Thanks Hollywood. The 1-4 Hero aligns with what has been observed of Ford on screen. That of course includes the 'odd man out' Bantu Wind jacket though.

Tyderium
09-16-2010, 11:12 AM
Yep, good info Hollywood.
4 hero jackets with the BW included, and assuming the Hawaii and Imam's are two distinct items, would seem to align with what we see on screen.

One theory I still entertain though, is the Main Jacket (some of the Temple scenes, Raven, WoS etc.) was actually Martin Grace's stunt jacket. Thus, only 3 intended hero jackets make it to screen. Perhaps the fourth not used or ends up being used as another stunt jacket. Just a thought and available to be shot down.

Gunslinger
09-16-2010, 11:50 AM
I agree that its very possible the switch occurred because Ford saw Grace's jacket when he was there to jump across the pit. After all, when Ford gets to the other side, he's switched jackets!

It's almost like he went "I'll have that!"

Tyderium
09-16-2010, 12:23 PM
Yep, and quite possibly for reasons we cited before such as it being cooler for Ford under the set lights since it appears to be thinner than the Hawaii jacket.

Hollywood
09-16-2010, 12:52 PM
Not to be a "Debbie downer" I am not sure I subscribe to the Harrison being hot as a reason to change an allocated piece of wardrobe on a physical set. It would be very rare for an actor to complain about being too hot, then the costume dept simply swaping out jackets for this issue. There are only a given amount of pieces of that same wardrobe on set at any one time, so the odds of having a jacket that was some how "cooler" would be slim at best. I will agree that there are differences in the jackets. That being said, remember that a "hero" piece is almost never used for action sequences. A "hero" is for close-ups, and publicity shots. The only times I am aware of Heros being used during an action sequence are for close-up shot inserts, when giving the illusion that the actual actor was the person doing the stunt. Stunt jackets are used for action sequences. Not all stunt jackets are worn only by stuntment. If Harrison was doing a stunt using a med to long shot then you can bet the jacket he would have been wearing would have been one altered for stunt use. Perhaps that is the difference you are seeing? A stunt jacket for all intensive purposes on screen looks the same as all the other jackets. The differences can be in the cut, some materials, and in the case of Indiana Jones jackets I know first hand that all the pockets are sewen down, buckles were either removed, or sewen in place, extra padding/ larger size, some had no lining in them, and there is at least one where there was an elastic material sewen into the black flap to allow for stretching.

A "Hero" piece of wardrobe or prop is the primary piece. Usually the best materials, the best details etc etc. With the case of the Indy jacket I am one who believes that the jackets came out of B&N the same, and along the way jackets were altered/ repaired do to film use (pockets were sewen down, and buckles were removed on location for at least 2 of the stunt jackets after Terry Leonard complained about possible injury with loose pieces during the stunt). The leather on these jackets were thin. I can easily imagine a jacket tearing, being sent back for repairs (in the field or to B&N/ Western) then a fix is made (replace the collar, replace a sleeve etc) thus slightly altering the item with leather grain, or antiquing, collar slightly longer than the original etc, giving the appearance of more than 4 hero jackets. This is very common in film wardrobe, and is by no means unusual. I could imagine a film with a low budget, and huge financial constraints that Speilberg was placing on DN that the reuse of jackets after repairs is what accounts for the majority of changes seen throughout the picture. Also add to that that Harrison did a ton of his own stunts so the need for him to be wearing a stunt version is very high, and I am sure was the case more often than not seen on screen.

Keep in mind this is my theory.

Gunslinger
09-16-2010, 01:13 PM
I'm wondering if we're getting too rigid in trying to label these jackets as hero vs. stunt when in this particular production, at this particular time, it was a bit more "under the pump" than that. Going by Nadoolman's story, it's quite possible that only 2-3 jackets actually existed at the time the Peruvian Temple corridor was being shot. Is it possible that all it took was, say, Grace's jacket to make it straight to the set without modification, and before it was modified, the switch occurred.

What if we're thinking about it all wrong? What if it was GRACE that needed more room? To me, the Imam's & BW look chunkier. Ford looked better in a slimmer cut jacket, and the stunt guys needed to fit padding. So they switched. Then Ford's original jacket/s WAS/WERE designated "stunt", and modified in the way you say, Hollywood, and ended up on Grace & Leonard's backs.

Hollywood
09-16-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm wondering if we're getting too rigid in trying to label these jackets as hero vs. stunt when in this particular production, at this particular time, it was a bit more "under the pump" than that. Going by Nadoolman's story, it's quite possible that only 2-3 jackets actually existed at the time the Peruvian Temple corridor was being shot. Is it possible that all it took was, say, Grace's jacket to make it straight to the set without modification, and before it was modified, the switch occurred.

What if we're thinking about it all wrong? What if it was GRACE that needed more room? To me, the Imam's & BW look chunkier. Ford looked better in a slimmer cut jacket, and the stunt guys needed to fit padding. So they switched. Then Ford's original jacket/s WAS/WERE designated "stunt", and modified in the way you say, Hollywood, and ended up on Grace & Leonard's backs.

\
I agree with the track your taking. However all the jackets are labled with sewen in lables and usually typed. So the ease to which they are arbitraily switched is not correct. Its not wrong to be rigid, since the jackets were specificly designated before production as to what was hero vs stunt. Remember that some of the jackets were pre made with the specs need for the films stunts etc. No one can say for sure what happened 30 years ago in Hawaii, as most of the people that worked on that film have long since gone on to other projects. At the time Raiders was being made, it was another movie to work on, and wasn't until years later that it became iconic. So staff were not hanging around remembering that Ford put on jacket #4 because he was too hot. To really prove what was worn when, you need the wardrobe continuty book for that film. That book will list what number jackets were worn for what scenes and by whom. Also it will have a catalogue of orders that would have been placed during the shoot for repairs of existing wardrobe/ props or new pieces for replacement. So as an example if jacket #1 needed to be repaired, the book would list what was reparied and when it was shipped/ delivered. Remember like anything else movies and their personnel have to be paid, and shots sometimes have to be redone. Not to mention that most movies are filmed out of sequence so the need to know exactly what Ford wore for a specific shot is very important. That is the reason to maintain such accurate records. Perhaps the mysterious Mr. Bond on the other board will one day say that when he was helping Lucas to hire all the LFL staff, Lucas pulled out of his back pocket the continuity book for his review.

Tyderium
09-16-2010, 02:01 PM
Yes, the specific reason for a possible jacket switch such as heat or visual aesthetics is obviously postulating but since it appears a switch did occur during the Temple sequence remains a point of interest with the possibility of hero and stunt jackets being interchanged at this point and then Ford continuing to wear this jacket for the majority of the subsequent filming.

Hollywood
09-16-2010, 03:07 PM
Yes, the specific reason for a possible jacket switch such as heat or visual aesthetics is obviously postulating but since it appears a switch did occur during the Temple sequence remains a point of interest with the possibility of hero and stunt jackets being interchanged at this point and then Ford continuing to wear this jacket for the majority of the subsequent filming.


Agreed!

Gunslinger
10-18-2010, 10:20 PM
More info on the Imams / Hawaii / Truck Grille (& Cab) jacket connections here: http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=654.msg6541#msg6541

neutronbomb
10-19-2010, 02:52 AM
The problem we have in calling the jacket Harrison Ford switched from during the Temple scene the "stunt jacket" is that it is incorrect. The jacket switch in the Temple scene that takes place where the "Stay Out of the Light" - 5:11 - 5:30 turns into "Where Forrestall cashed in" - 5:31 - 5:42 does not involve the "Stunt Jacket". It involves The Imam and The Main Hero Jackets.

The "stunt jacket" is the jacket worn by Harrison Ford in the Bantu Wind Boarding film scene and also worn by Terry Leonard for the stunt(s) in the Truck Chase scene and by Martin Grace in the Jumping the Pit and Falling Statue scenes. It's the jacket Harrison Ford is wearing in the "still" photo of him sitting Dockside in Rochelle. It's the Prototype Jacket.

When production moved back to Elstree two completely different jackets were introduced and worn by Harrison Ford. The first one was introduced in the first scene shot at Elstree, Imam's House. It was also used for the beginning of the Temple scene with the spiders and first part of the stay out of the light sequence. Then they made the switch to The Main Jacket where it shows the spikes coming at Indy with Forrestall attached. I personally suspect they didn't switch the jackets back and forth on Ford during the Temple shoot. I wouldn't be surprised if they shot all the scene's of Harrison Ford wearing the Imam's jacket first and then switched to shooting the scenes where we see Ford wearing The Main Hero Jacket. Why they made the Harrison Ford jacket switch during the Forrestall scene is anybody's guess. We stay with the Main jacket all the way through to Harrison Ford climbing out of the 2nd pit. The Main Hero Jacket is next worn by Harrison Ford in the WOS, Raven Bar, Flying Wing, and first half of the Truck Chase/Cab Fight scene up until just before he gets shot in the arm.

The jacket used for the "Jump the Pit Stunt" that is worn by Martin Grace is the "stunt" jacket. It's the first time since the jacket Harrison Ford wore for the Bantu Wind Boarding scene makes an appearance. It's The Prototype Jacket. Martin Grace wore this jacket for this Jump the Pit stunt and for the "Statue Falling" stunt in the Well of Souls. After that Terry Leonard wore it in Tunisia for all of his stunts that include where we see him on horseback, through the cab's front window, on the front of the truck's grille, and being drug underneath the truck; I don't believe the stuntmen ever wore The Main Hero or The Imam jackets. Harrison Ford then wears The Prototype Jacket again in Hawaii in the running from Hovitos sequence of the Hawaii scene.

After we see Harrison Ford climbing out of the 2nd pit the next scene is of Harrison Ford jumping under the door that is closing. From there all the way through the dive out the tunnels entrance/exit and having to give up the idol we see him again wearing The Imam Jacket that he last wore in the "Stay Out of the Light" scene in the Temple. We also see Harrison Ford wearing the Imam jacket in the 2nd half of the Truck Chase/Cab Fight scene that takes place after the bullet wound to his arm. In my opinion I'm sure this jacket, the Imam jacket, is the jacket that was giving to Tony Nowak to copy.

The story of Grace giving Ford the jacket off his back and Ford switching back and forth with Grace and the Grace jacket being the Hawaii jacket is a fabrication. A fairy tale spun to keep an immense ego glowing brightly for a worshipful audience. I agree that seeing the costumer's continuity book would be incredible, but I'm not seeing anything crazy going on with the jackets.

Gunslinger
10-19-2010, 03:29 AM
Ok. So, you seem to be saying there were TWO jackets used at the La Rochelle shoot? One as seen in the "Waiting for the Wookie" shot, and the other that was actually put to film where they talk to Sallah and board. Can you clarify?

neutronbomb
10-19-2010, 03:59 AM
What???

No dude. Where did you get that?

"The "stunt jacket" is the jacket worn by Harrison Ford in the Bantu Wind Boarding film scene and also worn by Terry Leonard for the stunt(s) in the Truck Chase scene and by Martin Grace in the Jumping the Pit and Falling Statue scenes. It's the jacket Harrison Ford is wearing in the "still" photo of him sitting Dockside in Rochelle. It's the Prototype Jacket."

One jacket in Rochelle. The Prototype.

Gunslinger
10-19-2010, 04:33 AM
All the info in your posts of late must have shut my brain down - sorry. :D It was the whole "Stunt Jacket" talk that messed with me.

neutronbomb
10-19-2010, 04:50 AM
LOL. No doubt. I was trying to clarify the confusion of using the term "stunt jacket" to describe the jacket switch HF made during the "stay out of the light" scene. Martin Grace and Terry Leonard neve wore either one of those jackets, though HF did wear The Iman Jacket during the "Boulder Run" and "Bullet Hole" and other scenes that could be considered stunts; just stunts that were performed by HF.

SG4tune
10-29-2010, 01:14 AM
Hello Guys, :)

I wanted to post some quotes that have been taken from Peter. I mention these, because he would have had no reason to spin this sort of information, as he could sell any type of skin as opposed to any other. I find it interesting, his remarks of how the events transpired. While cast and crew were in England, they logically used vendors and subcontractors that were located around the London area. Further, I find it difficult to believe that one of the mains would have flown in an American in from the States, just to make a jacket. It would seem silly, given the fact that this was a fledgling production, basically lower budget, and no one would fully know where it would truely go until after the fact. Additionally, there were plenty of skilled artisans in the London metro area anyway. Finally, from what we can deduce, there were at least 4 jackets produced that apparently/potentially saw screeen time, the Hero jacket and the three stuntmen's jackets. The bantu wind jacket is a puzzler, and speculation has always surrounded it. Therefore it is difficult to make an accurate accessment of its true origin, but could this be a jacket that was rejected? We can deduce that a Leather Concessionare was copied by Flight Suits, and looks very similair to the flying wing jacket, especially the trademark small collar. Nevertheless, some points to ponder.

Here are some quotes that have been extracted and I hope these will prove insightful:

Whilst technically we call the leather used on the jacket lambskin in fact the skin used was old Australian sheep thick and full of stretch marks, tick and damage as seen on screen. Lots of bomber jacket were made from this at the time usually in distressed form. Unfortunately this not being availabable...

Other people were involved and made samples which were all rejected on styling and skin type I know that.
The unique part is the full length action pleat, a major feature of the jacket, made by me so any other jacket made would have to have this feature which cannot be pre dated.


I dont know what involvement Cooper had but when I got involved we started with a clean sheet
and worked forward, I was only told what they did not like on other samples made not what they liked.

Chronology:
George Lucas & Steven Spielberg contracted Burmans & Nathans Costumiers to outfit Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. Noel Howard, who was the Joint Managing Director, was given this task. In doing so he had the jackets, shirts, pants, belts, and shoulder bags made. The jacket was sub-contracted to Peter Botwright of Leather Concessionaires.

Here is a quote from Noel regarding production...
"I got together lots or samples of leather jackets from our rental stock at Bermans ready for the first fitting of HF (Harrison Ford). Also, as I had worked with Peter on several productions previously, I asked him to let me have some sample jackets and leathers for the fitting. At the fitting we chose several design features from the various jackets tried on and I then asked Peter to make up a fitting jacket incorporating these features. At the next fitting we tried on this jacket and made some more modifications and then Peter made up another sample and so on until everybody was happy with the look and leather texture. As far as my memory goes, we made between 10-15 of the outfits for each movie, and usually more shirts, to cover the requirements for stunt doubles, etc.
That is the truth but with one very relevant and important feature. I was told at the time that they had had some sample jackets made in the USA but the thickness of the leather they was using and the styling made it impossible to access the whip and gun as the waistband was solid.
I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

It worked and became the production jacket. To my knowledge NO ONE and no other jacket design has this feature either before or since
and is and was unique to me and my production. As simple as that with no conspiracy theory.
Regards to all
Peter

Skin content 35-39 ft cost approx $3-4 per foot. Maximum. Work it out for yourself.
Novapelle, a top quality hide used by me is $2.80 per foot. Goatskin approx $2.20 per foot which is why I charge $15 extra for Novapelle.

Marauder
10-29-2010, 01:39 AM
Thank you SG4tune for a great first post.

Personally I think there may have been 4 jackets worn by Ford . Stuntmen's jackets probably in addition to those.

Gunslinger
10-29-2010, 02:26 AM
Just a side note - I was quoted about $6.50 / ft for the stuff in my threads, wholesale.

baldwyn
10-29-2010, 05:03 AM
Just a side note - I was quoted about $6.50 / ft for the stuff in my threads, wholesale.


Just adding to the references, my quote from the tannery for the American Stallion Tony had was $7.30/sq ft, non-wholesale.

SG4tune
10-29-2010, 03:38 PM
old Australian sheep. Would it not be consistent with this line of reason that an old animal-such as a sheep produces striations on its hide? The older the animal is the more the blemishes and character marks to its skin. A sheep's own version of wrinkles and the like, as we would know it.

neutronbomb
10-29-2010, 04:50 PM
KT did some research on this. Here is an abstract from one of the people he originally contacted:

"Skin wrinkles of the sire adversely affect Merino and halfbred pelt characteristics and other production traits

D. R. Scobie A , C , S. R. Young A , D. O'Connell A and E. Eythorsdottir B

A AgResearch Limited, Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre, PO Box 60, Lincoln, Canterbury, 8152, New Zealand.
B Agricultural Research Institute, Keldnaholt IS-112, Reykjavik, Iceland.
C Corresponding author. Email: scobie@xxxxxxxx


Abstract
The wrinkles on the skin of Merino sheep and related breeds are retained during leather processing, and the skins are known as 'ribby pelts' in the leather trade. Merino sires with either no skin wrinkles (smooth, n = 7) or excessive wrinkles (ribby, n = 7) were allocated at random to mating groups of 22 Merino ewes mixed with 22 Romney ewes. The progeny of ribby sires were more ribby at docking (P<0.001), at shearing (P<0.001), in the fellmongery (P = 0.001) and as pickled pelts (P<0.001). Merino progeny were more ribby than Merino × Romney (halfbred) progeny at all stages. When professionally graded as pickled pelts, smooth-sired progeny produced more pelts without ribs in both Merino (5% v. 0%) and halfbreds (69% v. 38%) than ribby-sired progeny. Wool samples collected at 7.5 months of age were not significantly different between sire groups in mean fibre diameter (P = 0.27) or staple length (P = 0.60) but they were different in standard deviation of fibre diameter (P = 0.003). Liveweight was consistently greater in the progeny of smooth sires, although this difference did not reach significance until the progeny attained a mean liveweight of 28 kg for Merinos and 32 kg for halfbreds (P = 0.016). Breed differences were observed in other traits and these are discussed. Interestingly, there were few significant sire type breed interactions, the exceptions being yield of clean wool (P<0.001), standard deviation of fibre diameter (P = 0.003) and an additional pelt trait referred to as pinhole score (P = 0.003). In summary, choosing sires without skin wrinkles can improve pelt quality, wool quality and liveweight of Merino and halfbred progeny.
Keywords: fibre diameter, fleece weight, grain strain, lambing percentage, liveweight, mottle, pinhole, ribby, smooth, staple length, weaning percentage.

Australian Journal of Experimental Agriculture 45(12) 1551-1557

Submitted: 9 October 2003 Accepted: 1 November 2004 Published: 19 January 2006

Full text DOI: 10.1071/EA03202

© 2005"


Here are some other quotes from Peter Botwright. It seems he uses Australian/New Zealand as his description at times:

"The films jackets were made from aust/nz sheep purchased by me from Hume and Thompson in Scotland in wet blue raw state and sent to Turn Leather in Tormorden"

"In the 80's I used to buy skin in what was called 'wet blue' i.e. unfinished.
I had it sent to Turn Leather Tannery at Todmorden, Yorkshire and they would process and contract tan the leather to my specification.
This was an old traditional tannery, a converted water mill. Using vast oak drums, sperm oil and pegging out the skins to dry naturally in a large hall.
That tended to make the skin a liitle stiff. Modern tanneries use special dryers for this and processes that make the skins soft and thinner.
Unfortunately they went the way of many others."

"I bought pickled NZ sheepskins in the blue"

"I am saying that the films jackets were made from aust/nz sheep purchased by me from Hume and Thompson in Scotland in wet blue raw ... is no real call for this type of skin and I no longer buy wet blue or pickled skins for contract tanning"

"veg tanned hides were used"

When Gunslinger picked up his latest hides the person he was talking to recognized his Striated Shrunken Lambskin jacket from Riley as using hides from Australia. The ones he picked up were from New Zealand. Quite a bit different look.

Marauder
10-29-2010, 06:08 PM
Just a side note - I was quoted about $6.50 / ft for the stuff in my threads, wholesale.


Just adding to the references, my quote from the tannery for the American Stallion Tony had was $7.30/sq ft, non-wholesale.


It is actually the bread of sheep. Merino has loose skin with folds, and therefore a higher 'yeild' of wool. Those extra folds of skin form the so called 'striations'

Other breeds of sheep have skin showing a different cell structure which is accentuated by the 'shrunken' tanning process. Varying from the large scale like appearance to the 'wet puckered fingertip' appearance and variations in between

Kt Templar
10-29-2010, 10:35 PM
My understanding it that the ribby nature is there from the start but gets more pronounced as the animal gets older. The big advantages of the older animal are thicker hides and more importantly full size hides.

The problem with some of the bigger guys and their 50+ inch chest sizes... they need super sheep and goats.

The Character
11-04-2010, 12:55 AM
Lol! .. super Sheep!

Certainly the shrunken lambs peter showed us would possibly make jackets for a GI joe but he said the scrap percentage of unusable material was very high. the 'Sheep' skins i saw in london were good and large by comparison. They were also more readily available in the 80's. As KT has pointed out skins are a by product of the food industry. Lamb is a relatively recent change to the UK pallettes .... Mutton or sheep was most commonly eaten previously. My family background is farming BTW... lol

Also just to re-mention .. when i recently asked Robert Watts the 'how many jackets were used in Raiders' question the unequivocal reply came back ... four ... total. There was no ambiguous 4 hero's 3 stunts etc ... four ... just four..... which is pretty much the no you guys have worked out for yourselves .. give or take.

If there is a 'prototype' it was likely the one jacket finished just prior to La Rochelle and carried over by DN before she departed. According to both making of books i have, they then went back to Elstree in the UK to film the interior shots for a few weeks and shortly thereafter a second unit went ahead to Tunisia to shoot stunt work and 'HF light' desert sequences including some of the truck chase sequences. They mention reviewing rushes of those back at Elstree at the end of the shooting day, and while still filming in the UK studio .. so one could(?) assume that at least one jacket possibly two were sent out there and two were back in the UK... It might just be luck but those could have been the 'proto' and the 'hero'

Food for thought?... I can feel the guns swinging in my direction even now.... 'Quickly senior .. there is nothing to fear here!'

TC

djd
12-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Can I just ask folks, is there ANY evidence (and I'm not talking about unseen documents or texts from George or Steve) that there were any cooper jackets used in Raiders? I really think it would be a good idea to post some sort of jacket history to counter the unsubstantiated fantasy posted elsewhere.

RCSignals
12-05-2010, 08:36 PM
The best written histories we have access to are from Deb Nadoolman interviews and Peter.
Maybe Peter can add to this here.

The other thing we have (which we are told is of no use) is what is seen on screen and evidence from the screen that has been closely examined. We've seen and discussed that here.

Anyone have anything else?

djd
12-05-2010, 10:01 PM
I think the on screen evidence is absolutely key if we're talkIng about REAL evidence. We should pull it all together. We don't make definite statements unless it's proven. We can suggest theories where there are gaps- buts that's what they are theories- until evidence proves or disproved them . Thats the correct approach. That's the approach we should adopt here.

Gunslinger
12-05-2010, 10:12 PM
Yep, that's what we've tried to do with the tracking jackets stuff. Feel free to add your opinions / theories.

neutronbomb
12-05-2010, 10:32 PM
I can totally buy Robert Watts saying there were 4 jackets total made for Raiders. It makes much more sense to me than all the other various jacket numbers that have been thrown around. I've looked at trying to identify them throughout the film as a bit of crossword puzzle or something. Just something fun to make a try at. At this point I feel pretty comfortable myself with being able to see three different jackets through the majority of the movie. 2 that HF wears primarily and one that Terry Leonard and possibly Martin Grace wear for stunts.

Of course, there may be no way to determine for certain 100% by studying film, but it's something we can visually see anyway and it's actually given me a better appreciation for the movie in studying it comprehensively in it's entirety frame by frame. I'll probably keep coming back to it overtime. The area where I personally feel the best bet for a fourth jacket being seen in the movie is somewhere in the Hawaii scene, but I haven't been able to completely convince myself as of yet. It would make sense to me, though it's just a thought and nothing more, that a fourth jacket was held in reserve in case something catastrophic happened to a jacket or two throughout filming the movie. I also don't think they used a cloth jacket anywhere in the movie, so I could also see it making sense to use a fourth jacket in the swim the river scene or something.

I've had a bit of a hard time with more than three jackets being used in the movie because I've had difficulty with seeing a reason why, if there were more than three jackets available, was the stunt jacket that Terry Leonard wears appear so different to me than what we see HF primarily wear.

Again, I doubt I'll see myself jumping up and down and saying here is the deal period, end of discussion. But, I will say based on what I've seen that Robert Watts has my vote as having the best memory so far with the number of jackets used/available for Raiders. 4 makes more sense to me by far than what, 14 or something. I shouldn't neglect to mention that I haven't seen where Peter has definitively said how many jackets he made for Raiders.

I wonder if Robert Watts meant 4 jackets were made for Raiders period or that only 4 jackets were available on set for use. There's been mention that submissions came from a few different individuals that were rejected. Neil Cooper? Peter? Wilson's? Who else may have submitted jackets?

I guess if you take the what, 10 jackets from Wilsons that Deb said she left behind, and add the 4 jackets that Robert Watts said was available you get 14 total jackets.

As far as Neil Cooper. It seems the most that can be considered possibly definitive regarding his role is that he was given the license to make the Raiders/Indiana Jones jacket sometime after the movie came out. I know people have interpreted US Wings/Sgt. Hack statements on the subject as saying Neil Cooper made the jacket(s) that were actually used in the movie. From what I've read, it seems those statements could also be read to mean that Neil Cooper was possibly given one of the jackets used in the movie to base his "original" patterns on or something like that. There is of course the way different "stunt" jacket that Terry Leonard wears and that HF is photographed in sitting dockside at the Bantu Wind. There's a reason somewhere why that one particular jacket has such clearly different features than the other jackets we see in the movie.

djd
12-06-2010, 05:14 AM
Yep, that's what we've tried to do with the tracking jackets stuff. Feel free to add your opinions / theories.


I see that mate. I should have been clearer.... I mean take all this and condense it down to an easy to read article rather than the interesting but somewhat rambling discussion we currently have. I'm keen that other fans can read something that might counter other less critically argued jacket 'histories' out there.

As to my theories- I'm really not that much of an expert compared to you guys. My point is about a proper, well argued history that only presents the facts and not fantasy.

RCSignals
12-06-2010, 05:27 AM
I like the line 'State your assumptions'
Often assumptions are presented as fact, and given a footnote reference.

Gunslinger
12-06-2010, 06:41 AM
RAMBLING?! :mad:

...yeah, ok.

djd
12-06-2010, 08:14 AM
I'm not doing very well here am I? ;)

I'm not saying any one post is rambling but surly 11 pages could be summarised somewhat?

Gunslinger
12-06-2010, 08:23 AM
Just a joke at my own expense mate. I agree it is a bit impenetrable.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
08-19-2011, 05:01 AM
:doh:

PLATON
08-22-2011, 09:27 AM
some threads have become too long to follow