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djd
12-02-2010, 06:55 PM
Ok guys... What do you say is the correct height for the front of the raiders hat? My AB is just under 5" - this looks a little too high to me? Maybe it's just my face but my fed IV at 4.5 looks a lot more like it.... Grateful for any insight

Gunslinger
12-02-2010, 09:23 PM
4.5" or a TINY bit more depending on the scene. There are illusions going on with the film hat, which you will discover for yourself in a few days! ;)

RCSignals
12-02-2010, 09:27 PM
I suspect for the 'correct look' the height will change slightly with a person's face shape and hat size?

Someone with a huge mellon, say over size 62, would surely require a taller hat?

Gunslinger
12-02-2010, 10:18 PM
Yes. With DJD's, he wanted a crown height that wasn't crazy-high, so I suggested making it at the SA height even though his block size is bigger. With the correct Raiders block there is also a fair bit of volume in the crown, so it can be tweaked a bit taller if need be. Of course, the brim size comes into proportional play too. A big part of the different vibe that the Hawaii hat has vs. the main hero hat is its brim has been cut differently.

deadseascrolls
12-02-2010, 11:05 PM
I suspect for the 'correct look' the height will change slightly with a person's face shape and hat size?

Someone with a huge mellon, say over size 62, would surely require a taller hat?


I've noticed this with two redone Stetson cowboy hats turned Indy fedoras I own. The hat I love the best has a front crown height, when bashed, of 5" and a back height of 4 1/2". I should mention these are both CS-styled hats. The second hat also had that crown height originally, but I wanted SA so I tried to have my hatter make it that way. Granted, the CS hats originally had a 5 1/2" open crown while mine have a 6" one so that makes a considerable difference, but the crux is that I like the 5" height better than the SA height of 4 3/4". It's only a 1/4", but as we've all probably observed, a 1/4" can seem like a mile as far as noticeable difference.

So what I'm getting at is that while there's the whole "what's SA" debate that continues to go on (and of which I'm a big member of as I'm very picky about it myself), the end result should be what LOOKS BEST on you. As Chewbacca Jones once pointed out to me, we don't all have the same build, head shape, facial deformaties, etc as the people we're trying to model our wares off of (i.e: our fedoras to the specs of Harrison Fords), so what looks good on Harrison may look absolutely hideous on you or I. I've found that the 5" frontal height seems, to me, to look the best in the mirror with my build. Granted it's not SA, but what good is the hat if it doesn't look good on you and make you feel like it fits you.

So please take what little I have to offer into consideration when purchasing your hat. Find what suits you and not what looks to be SA sizing as you'd have the specs right but I'd imagine unless it works for you, it would make you feel disappointed in your purchase.

As for how to tell what frontal sizing to go with before ordering a hat, I cannot answer that. For me, it was trial and error until I put the reblocked hat on from the hatter, looked at it, and said "damn, that's a FINE hat". Only then out of curiosity did I measure it to see what I got.

So that's my 2 cents.

DSS

bendingoak
12-03-2010, 12:14 AM
Just going by screen grabs and I would say 4 1/2 or a hair above for 23 inches area. Will have to go up or down depending on the size but then the open crown height will change with it as does the brim specs. Now open crown height means nothing without block shape, transition point , etc , etc.


I find most offering out the 4 3/4 from and 4 1/4 back.

Now AB , if you are in the common or middle range 4 1/2 and( Just from memory) 3 3/4 back. Once you get the center dent in. The rest is just going from. What you see.

djd
12-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Thanks guys ;)

The problem I seem to have is that if I attempt to get the crown any lower the hat then looks tapered... Am I doing something wrong or is this just a consequence of the block shape?

Ta

Gunslinger
12-03-2010, 09:24 AM
I've found any crown will have a tipping point - in other words, you can only go so far down when you're bashing it before it starts to want to taper. In doing all my tests with the Raiders block shape, I've found that you want that point to be 4 1/2" at the front and 4" at the back. If you are finding it's tapering badly in a way that bashing the side dents doesn't fix, that hat either has a non-Raiders block shape, or has been blocked way too high. A half inch is a helluva lot of extra height - your head ain't THAT big to scale it up that much IMO. That's Crismans' territory!

( ;) Crisman! :D )

bendingoak
12-03-2010, 03:01 PM
what size is the hat?

crismans
12-03-2010, 03:08 PM
A half inch is a helluva lot of extra height - your head ain't THAT big to scale it up that much IMO. That's Crismans' territory!

( ;) Crisman! :D )


Big brains require big houses, buddy!

djd
12-03-2010, 03:22 PM
60 cm - although quite a small 60

bendingoak
12-03-2010, 07:33 PM
60cm is 60cm. What are the brim specs?

djd
12-03-2010, 07:43 PM
2 5/8 by 2 7/8

It's smaller than my 60 fed IV and that measures less than 60 according to their web site. I appreciate your help John- and I found your hat bashing videos to be very good

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7931/009ds.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4936/008ve.jpg

AB v's Fed IV

Gunslinger
12-03-2010, 10:14 PM
It's really hard to judge stuff with handheld shots. Maybe when you can, try to get some shots from a bit further back.

bendingoak
12-03-2010, 11:09 PM
I agree.

djd
12-04-2010, 05:01 AM
I'll try and see if my imaginary wife will take some pics for me :)

djd
12-04-2010, 05:22 PM
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8291/002lu0.jpg
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6841/003j0.jpg
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/994/004scg.jpg

(taken by imaginary son)

G-MANN
12-04-2010, 05:27 PM
Looks good to me. Your [imaginary] wife did a good job on the pics. ;)

"M"

bendingoak
12-04-2010, 08:10 PM
Could be the angle of the shot you are looking at. the 1st and 3rd pic makes it look to tall but the 2nd pic looks fine to me.

djd
12-04-2010, 08:30 PM
The second picture looks fine to me too John ... But I just don't get that look unless the hat is viewed from a high angle. I'm trying to work the centre dent a little deeper between the humps without the dreaded taper setting in! Cheers

Gunslinger
03-25-2012, 07:22 AM
...in person.

I was out cruising the antique shops looking for some old tools when I copped a view of myself in a bunch of mirrors wearing my Raiders hat. This is one I just made recently and is of all HJ components. I was REALLY hoping I'd nailed the exact height in terms of what looked good on me. I basically used the "hero" hat specs, with a turn, but with the side brim dimensions of the unturned Hawaii hat, because I just like it that way. You'll notice the front and back brim are a tad short, and sometime soon I'll stretch those suckers out. But anyway...

I noticed how damn tall the hat looked, and thought, "Oh shit, I'd screwed something up." So of course, here I ended up again - Sunday afternoon taking photos and doing overlays. Seems it just looks tall on ME.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/HJ-Height-Comp2.jpg
Gotta bash those Raven-style lumps outta the top! See how it messes up the overlay?

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/HJ-Height-Comp1.jpg
Exact body dimensions of the Flying Wing / Truck Chase - era Hero hat, but notice how much squared-up it got?

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/HJ-Height-Comp3.jpg
Just in case the front view was off, giving a false reading of a match, here's the side view.

So, long story short - the front height as bashed here from ribbon to top is 4.25", and at the back it's 3.75"

Weston
03-26-2012, 04:16 AM
Frankly, I think you're obsessing about it a bit. It looks fine to me; your face isn't as long as HF's, as demonstrated by your screengrabs, but even so your hat looks good to me.

Have you tried a shorter crown? Maybe you should give that a go an compare it to the pics you've put up here. I think it looks good as it is.

Weston

bigrex
03-26-2012, 05:31 AM
And here I was thinking it looked short on you from the front, and tall from the side. At least in comparison to the Ford example you have there, but it is probably just the greater width on your hat vs the height, Ford's seems less wide around in proportion to the height. The hat looks good on you though, and as you said, I guess you are going for what will look good on you.

Gunslinger
03-26-2012, 06:21 AM
Weston, oh I'm ~sure~ I'm obsessing. Are you serious mate? ;)

I take what you're both saying and that it looks ok on me. Thanks. It just seemed crazy-tall. The slightly narrower brim does that with the proportions, but I tend to spec them that way on myself because wider feels like a sombrero.

If all else fails, if I can match it to the movie I can rationalise its all good. :) I just had a weird moment when it looked taller than the film hat and that was kind of odd.

Indiana Bugs
03-26-2012, 08:21 PM
No matter how accurate your gear is, especially your hat, if your face and head aren't SA, as well, then you're not really screen accurate, are you?

More to the point, I recommend creasing your hat so that you are happy how it looks on you. Your hat can be a genetic copy of a hat on the movie but if your head/face is shaped like Harrison Bergeron, fer instance, instead of Harrison Ford, the hat may look really out of place on your head.

My hats aren't screen accurate, they are screen reminiscent. Each one is creased to that it looks best on me.

Raskolnikov
03-26-2012, 10:53 PM
Kurt, the Indiana Jones hat was especially chosen (and customised, I suppose) to fit Harrison Ford's Face. That's the reason why, in my opinion, its style changed throughout the movies (leaving aside the alterations the Poet suffered during those years); it was simply because Harrison Ford's face changed as he got older. I think, for instance, that the adventurebuilt crown (taken from the Raiders crown height and shape) doesn't fit anymore a 65 year old Indy. However, it's a beautiful hat. Having said that, yours looks awsome and matches with your face shape well enough; who knows, maybe you could find a better fitting making some tweaks here and there to make it look 'your own hat', but it certainly doesn't seem to be tall on you at all, at least to my eyes.
By the way, superb job on that one.

Gunslinger
03-27-2012, 12:01 AM
Ok guys, that's cool. Thanks for the opinions. I've barely worn this hat as I just made it a few weeks ago, and the weather here has been crap. I'll square it off to be like the flying wing hat, as I think that will help reduce the bulk of it a little and be a better suit for my face. I'm trying to balance my desire for a perfectly SA hat with something that suits me, as Bugs notes. The good thing is I do personally prefer the Raiders hat in its more "evolved" state, but didn't want to jump the gun on that until I had more of a feel for the look on me. I also need to work on the brim, too, which I've just flat-out ignored.

My problem is, though I think I'm now good at being objective about how a jacket looks on me, and where it needs to hit to work, I'm still kind of terrible when it comes to hats on my own head. I don't really like looking at my own mug so that obviously doesn't help. I mean seriously - look what I have to work with! :'(

BTW, thanks for the compliment on the hat Raskolnikov - I love this one - it's actually a mint condition HJ sweatband and liner from 1978 (IE Raiders-era internals), combined with a mint condition, (UNWORN!) HJ body from the 1950's. I'll post some better pics when I get the bash / brim issues sorted.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
03-27-2012, 12:16 AM
That is a mighty fine hat Kurt! Can you explain briefly how you will go about reshaping the crown? I want to try the same with mine.

Thanks again :hail:

Weston
03-27-2012, 12:55 AM
My problem is, though I think I'm now good at being objective about how a jacket looks on me, and where it needs to hit to work, I'm still kind of terrible when it comes to hats on my own head.



I can genuinely understand that. It seems everyone agrees that it looks good, but you're the one who has to be comfortable in it. Either way, that is a superb hat!

Weston

IfAdventureHasAName
03-27-2012, 01:20 AM
No matter how accurate your gear is, especially your hat, if your face and head aren't SA, as well, then you're not really screen accurate, are you?

More to the point, I recommend creasing your hat so that you are happy how it looks on you. Your hat can be a genetic copy of a hat on the movie but if your head/face is shaped like Harrison Bergeron, fer instance, instead of Harrison Ford, the hat may look really out of place on your head.

My hats aren't screen accurate, they are screen reminiscent. Each one is creased to that it looks best on me.


Well said, "Indiana Bugs", well said. :agree: :goodjob: I especially like that term "screen reminiscent".

Gunslinger
03-27-2012, 03:21 AM
That is a mighty fine hat Kurt! Can you explain briefly how you will go about reshaping the crown? I want to try the same with mine.

Thanks again :hail:


Um...

Hmm. I'll have to get back to you if you want exact instructions. I just kind of "do" it. Maybe I'll upload a video in a week or 2 and that way I can also explain the evolution of the hat and how to shape each.

neutronbomb
06-08-2012, 04:29 PM
You know......I'm still not clear on this. My hats are coming in at 5" from the bottom of the ribbon to the top of the front pinch except for one which comes in at 4 1/2" because that's all the material there was. Is there any sort of real consensus on what that height is for Raiders SA.

Indiana Bugs
06-08-2012, 08:33 PM
I believe it had been reported in various places at various times that it was in the 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 inch range, probably closer to 4 3/4. 5 inches is very tall for a Raiders hat, unless, of course, you are a big guy with a big head (no insult intended). Then the whole hat has to be sized up or it'll look like a cupcake on your head.

Gunslinger
06-08-2012, 09:08 PM
Actually I now think that it's closer to 4.25" pinch at the front, based on some more recent tests I did. I have this pinched for a height that looked about right for me and thats what it's pinched at.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/HJ-Height-Comp3.jpg

Neutronbomb, You need to push the middle of the hat down (the big groove in the top) to create a new apex top front, and then reset the side bashes if need be.

neutronbomb
06-08-2012, 09:26 PM
Bullshit!

I'm not touching them. They're a work of art what you did.

Gunslinger
06-09-2012, 12:07 AM
If its one of my hats I wouldn't have bashed it as high as 5" - it may have loosened up a bit. If you want to lower it, just post some pics and I will call you to talk you through lowering it in a safe way! ;)

neutronbomb
06-09-2012, 12:49 AM
Ok. I can see how they've loosed up at the pinch and it doesn't take too much to just press it down at the point a bit and they're down to 4 3/4 easily. Maybe a little hat stiffener and we'll be good.

djd
06-10-2012, 07:52 PM
Does this look too tall to you?
http://img.tapatalk.com/5f920923-fad4-e3e5.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/5f920923-fae3-5ee0.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/5f920923-faf5-6b80.jpg

deadseascrolls
06-10-2012, 08:25 PM
I would say the Raiders hat has a 4 3/4" crown. Again, we're dealing with a variety of angles which, I've learned, can be a great asset or a great problem in trying to figure things out (same with lighting). Is the Raiders front higher/lower/the same in your views to the CS fedora? The reason I state that question is that it's certain the CS fedora's front was 4 3/4" when bashed and since Steve did a TON of research on the Raiders hat, both before and during his work on the CS fedora (as that's what they were going for with CS - an overall LC-ish type fedora with the Raiders block), he had an idea of what the Raiders block specs should be. I've always thought the Raiders height was at least 4 3/4" and perhaps even 5" and I can't recall if the Raiders open crown was 5" or 5 1/2". The CS was 5"(?) if I remember right. Best person to ask if it can be done is that Desi fellow from "Screen-Used" who owns one of the original Raiders fedoras. Granted, the hat has been twisted, contorted, sweated in, drenched on, etc so getting the info may not provide a truly accurate answer but it's as close probably as can be (unless HJ still has the old records of Swales - you know, like Fritz had of Ford's Alden boot size, etc).

bendingoak
06-10-2012, 10:32 PM
It's not that hard. If you take a screen shot and take the measurement of the ribbon which we know exactly how wide that is you then can find about the correct height. 4 1/2.

Gunslinger
06-10-2012, 10:59 PM
The thing is you can't compare apples with oranges. It's a fair enough technique to scale out the height on the basis of the ribbon on the screen grab. However, you can't then measure the hat itself to get a precise result. I really think you have to then go and take a photo using the same angle and focal length and then measure it using the same ribbon ratio method.

I had also thought the hat was bashed at 4.5" but now I think that's at the absolute outside, and going by the overlays above, could be much closer to 4.25. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

djd
06-11-2012, 05:59 AM
Ok... So next question .... How do I lower the height without the hat looking tapered?

Gunslinger
06-11-2012, 08:10 AM
Yeah, to me that hat looks both a tad high as well as a tad bulky on you. What brand is it? Looks "beaverish" to me.

Anyway, it gets tricky to lower a hat beyond a certain point. What I would try first is to pop out the side dents and then put pressure on the top at the very front and back. As you say, it will reach a point where it wants to taper in harshly. You may be able to get it a tiny way past that point, but in any event get it as far as you can manage and then pinch really hard horizontally on either side of that top front apex to help anchor the new height.

Then go to the sides, and recalibrate the far extremes of the side dents at the new height. I personally like to use my thumb in the far end of the bash, and use my middle and index fingers (in a tripod shape) at the rear end of the back part of the dent. As per the main film hat, I put 2 points about 1 inch apart othe bow side of the hat. Then grab the bashes with your fingers in the dents and your thumbnails on the top edges of the ribbon and press hard inwards. This helps to shape the mushroom effect a little. (that's mostly an illusion, but that's another thread!) in any. Event, in your case, it will decrease the excessive boxiness of your hat.

So, assuming its a beaver hat or thick rabbit (like an Akubra), you may be well served by doing all of the above having wet the hat a bit. To do this, remove the liner and pop the sweatband inside out. Then wet a tea-towel pretty solidly and squelch the inside of the hat with the water until it -almost- bleeds through to the outside - mainly in the top front and back points and the key bash areas. This will help you push the crown down a bit further so it sticks in place better and also mould the hat to shape really nicely.

Once you have wet it, flip the sweatband back and mould away. Then make sure you have something appropriately head shaped to rest it on to dry. Preferably a bit long-ovalled.

djd
06-11-2012, 08:37 AM
Thats a rabbit AB. Quite floppy. At the moment it's around 4.75 at the front and I'd certainly like to get it down to 4.5 if possible.

neutronbomb
06-11-2012, 05:41 PM
Maybe push the point down just a bit will do it.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/djd_hatcompare.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/5f920923-fad4-e3e5.jpghttp://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/WOS2_kurthatcompare.jpg
[/quote]

djd
06-11-2012, 08:13 PM
Thanks mate. I'll have a go. When ever I try to rehash the thing it comes out the same height no matter what I do... It's like some kind of really annoying magic trick

Indiana Bugs
06-11-2012, 09:55 PM
Yeah, that's happened to me, too, on more than one hat. Once they decide they're gonna be one way, it's very hard to persuade them to take small changes because they want to go back to the way they were. That's when I'll reblock a hat. I remove the liner but not the sweat. I fold it down out of the hat before wetting the felt and putting it on the block.

I have found that big changes don't need a reblock. When I took a hat from a fedora to a porkpie and back, just a spray-down and my hands was fine.