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View Full Version : The Main Hero Jacket's Right Collar Tip



neutronbomb
10-30-2010, 01:44 AM
Hey Gunslinger. I notice in the pocket corner thread that we're still at odds on the rounded collar tip. I think it is pointed, but often we see it bent up causing it to look rounded. I think of it as taking two sheets of white paper and putting the corner of one in the center of the other and bending just the tip up. At the right angle it becomes invisible giving it a rounded look. I'll have to try it with a camera and see if the two dimensional aspect emphasizes it. Also, I think the tip flops around a bit so I was able to get some different aspects across a few different scenes that The Main Hero Jacket is in. When the side edge has a sharp bend and the front edge has that rolling bend is when it appears rounded to me. Anyway, this is how I'm seeing it:

Temple Run:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/templerun_collartip1.jpg

Temple Pit Jump 2:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip3.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip4.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip5.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip6.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip7.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip8.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/pit2_collartip10.jpg

Raven:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip3.jpg

Flying Wing:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip3.jpg

RCSignals
10-30-2010, 02:01 AM
I agree NB

Mac
10-30-2010, 03:55 AM
I disagree NB.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar.jpg

- Mac

Marauder
10-30-2010, 04:09 AM
I disagree NB.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar.jpg

- Mac


In that photo the illusion effect makes the right tip appear to be more rounded than the left. You can see though the bend line on the right collar, which facilitates the illusion effect.

Mac
10-30-2010, 04:24 AM
In that photo the illusion effect makes the right tip appear to be more rounded than the left. You can see though the bend line on the right collar, which facilitates the illusion effect.

Which illusion effect?

Err...which are you acknowledging Marauder, "collar is round, sometimes looks pointed," or "collar is pointed, sometimes looks round?"

- Mac

RCSignals
10-30-2010, 05:17 AM
LOL

you've been missed Mac

Marauder
10-30-2010, 05:17 AM
makes the right tip appear to be more rounded than the left.

I thought that would have been clear.
There is a bend in the right collar end, changing the direction the right tip points which makes it appear to be more rounded than it is. I believe the photo shows the left tip in a more pure form, less rounded than the right tip. Neither are true 'pointed', the tips do have some rounding, and that can be seen on the left tip.

Do any of the current jacket makers make their jacket with a true pointed tip? I've never seen one.

Mac
10-30-2010, 05:28 AM
I thought that would have been clear.
Then you surely overestimate me, my friend. :)

To me, there's definitely a bend in the right collar tip that, 1) makes the collar look more pointed at certain angles; and, 2) makes the collar look more rounded at certain angles.

However, to me there doesn't appear to be any appreciable "pointedness" in the true shape of the right collar - that is to say, if you flattened the collar with an iron, it would look pretty much like the left: rounded.

Notice the difference between the collar shape and the shadow of the collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar2.jpg


A closeup of the phenomenon NB is talking about:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar3.jpg



you've been missed Mac
Many thanks my friend! ;D

- Mac

Gunslinger
10-31-2010, 05:31 AM
I think Neutronbomb is dead-on in spotting the fold. What bothers me is we just don't have much of a clean, flat-on shot of the collar to be able to see what role it's playing vs. 'reality".

Gunslinger
10-31-2010, 06:32 AM
Ok, so I have gone back to a few shots I had taken of my TNO jacket. I can't currently access it to take direct comparison shots, but hopefully these may help.

First, to me, most Nowak jackets' collar tips look just a tad too pointy for the Hero jacket. Not by much, but just a tad. We've got to bear in mind, though, that the jacket Tony duplicated was not what we call the Main Hero, but the Hawaii / Imams. Analysis I've recently done of the pocket flaps show that they are DEAD-ON for the Hawaii, so we have absolutely no reason to think the tips aren't perfect also. However, I can see there's a possibility one jacket may have had slightly duller tips than the other.

So in any event, with my last jacket, I had Riley dull them down by this much vs. the Nowak standard:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Collar-tips.jpg

And this is what I got:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_110330.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_110254.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_104326.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_104242.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_104110.jpg

Notice how he & his sewist (the right word?) even got the rolling-over tendency of the RH lapel right, which aids the effect. Bearing in mind both my points are the same, it kind of gives us a point of reference to discuss the effect Bryan is outlining. In my first and second shots - we see the same amount of curve results in a totally different effect depending on the ange and curve of the lapel.

Also, if you notice in the last shot of mine, you can see it's got the same diagonal line of illumination as in NB's captures - it's the edge of the internal excess leather.

I'm kind of torn, as I can see there's a lot of shots that NB shows here where it could very easily be quite pointy, but it's almost impossible to know if it's illusion. The shot Mac posts may well be the closest we have to flat-on, but the effect is happening there too, so it still isn't definitive.

I mean, if we had to draw a pocket, like I have here, what curve do we think would best match? To state the obvious, talking "rounded" vs. "pointy" is a bit vague. I'm about to send through some specs on another jacket, so am kinda itchy to get this right to say the least.

neutronbomb
11-01-2010, 06:38 PM
Here's a few more Gunslinger:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/WOS_collartip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/WOS_collartip2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/WOS_collartip3.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/WOS_collartip4.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip4.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip5.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip6.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip7.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip8.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip4.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip3-1.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip4.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip5.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip6.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip7.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip8.jpg

Mac
11-01-2010, 08:04 PM
Clear closeups of the Hero with no "pointedness" visible.

In the first, one can follow the line of stitching and the resulting welt all the way around the well-lit collar tip. There's not a "pointy tip" bent toward the viewer causing an illusion of "roundness." It's a rounded collar, just like the other side.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar4.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar5.jpg

- Mac

neutronbomb
11-01-2010, 09:45 PM
As shown above with same jacket, same collar tip across multiple angles, multiple scenes:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip9-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip4.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip5-1.jpg

neutronbomb
11-01-2010, 10:07 PM
And there it is extended with no bend:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip3-1.jpg

Mac
11-01-2010, 10:40 PM
Both collars are rounded, the illusion is that they appear pointed when viewed from certain angles:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/CollarComparison1.jpg



http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip9-1.jpg
In that photo (any of your photos) there is no evidence of a bend along the front edge of the collar; your "corner of paper" analogy requires a corresponding bend along the front of the collar as well as the side. It may be made invisible when viewed from one angle, but not ALL angles.




As shown above with same jacket, same collar tip across multiple angles, multiple scenes:
NB, I'm sorry but the following photos are utterly worthless and do nothing to advance your theory:


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/templerun_collartip1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/raven_collartip1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip3.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip5.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip6.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip7.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/flyingwing_collartip5.jpg

- Mac

neutronbomb
11-01-2010, 11:24 PM
The photo of Gunslinger's jacket from above has the entire side edge hidden and it is being viewed completely from the side whereas in many of the photos I used from the film the entire side and front edge can be see all the way to the tip. It also makes more sense to me that they'd make both collar tips the same instead of having one that's super rounded. I think in looking at the other collar tip, the same criteria/arguments would need to apply equally.

However, Gunslinger is speccing out a jacket and asked for input. I provided mine with a look at as much information across as wide a variety of angles and scenes as possible while taking into account that it's in a two-dimensional format. I could care less really if it's one way or the other, so it's just what I see. I actually really don't care what you have to say about it or if you think I'm wrong. If you're trying to convince me, your wasting your time and it just bores me so if your responding to my posts for my benefit please stop and don't address them at me. You're way behind the curve as far as I'm concerned. But, since this is feedback for Gunslinger, then you've stated your position and I'm sure he'll appreciate the input.

Kt Templar
11-01-2010, 11:47 PM
I think the work you've been looking for is machinist! :)

The collar seems to have rounded tips to me. The pointed look is an optical illusion. You can make a rounded shape and make it look pointed by adjusting the viewing angle. Much harder to do so with a sharp corner - just take a piece of paper and view one of it's corners from lots of different angles you'll see what I mean.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5905/pointycurve.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/pointycurve.jpg/)

crismans
11-02-2010, 12:39 AM
That's a good illustration KT.

neutronbomb
11-02-2010, 12:42 AM
Hey Kt. I don't think so unless one entire edge is hidden and then you're looking at it on edge sideways. This is what I see going on.

The other side must also be rounded?!
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/horseback_collartip2.jpg

oops.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/horseback_collartip1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/paper_cornertip1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/paper_cornertip2.jpg

Mac
11-02-2010, 01:40 AM
I could care less really if it's one way or the other, so it's just what I see. I actually really don't care what you have to say about it or if you think I'm wrong. If you're trying to convince me, your wasting your time and it just bores me so if your responding to my posts for my benefit please stop and don't address them at me. You're way behind the curve as far as I'm concerned.
Now you’re gettin’ nasty.

No need for that. A frank discussion about specific characteristics of a movie jacket shouldn’t be viewed as a personal affront.

However, if you’re basing your theories on photos of a quality that are no better than 1 MP digicam photos of a standard-def TV screen that’s playing a VHS copy of the film on freeze-frame, then you are behind the curb.


Both sides of the collar are rounded:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Misc/Collar_Raven_SplitView.jpg


- Mac

Kt Templar
11-02-2010, 02:01 AM
It's possible sure that one collar tip is pointed and the other is more rounded. US Wings A2's jackets display this characteristic in several of their versions over many years.

But Mac's last shot shows it very clearly and without the motion blur that your shots have making many of them inconclusive.

neutronbomb
11-02-2010, 02:36 AM
"utterly worthless"

Mac when I see this in my thread that I started it pisses me off. I spent a lot of time on this. I CLEARLY DON'T think it's worthless. I put together what I see. You see something different. Good for you. You misused the word sarcasm. I wasn't being sarcastic. I meant it. You want to let everyone know you see something different and have a different pet theory of your own, then fine. However, Since, we're being so honest and frank here and all, I think you're a complete idiot all the way. I really do. See, we can totally go that route. Don't think for a second I'm going to be a nice guy when I see that pop up in the thread and then you thinking you're cute with the name you give your screengrabs. You want to share what you see, fine. You've done it. You keep stalking my posts and playing devil's advocate just for the sake and getting personal and cutesy, I'm going serve it up.

And now both sides are rounded. LOL.

Mac
11-02-2010, 03:12 AM
"utterly worthless"
Mac when I see this in my thread that I started it pisses me off.

Certainly, but the point remains that those reposted photos are far too blurry, out of focus, and riddled with artifacts to provide any useful information with regard to the topic. If you're offended by the choice of words to describe those photos, then I withdraw them as they are meant to be descriptive of the quality rather than to be provocative.*

Replying to the rest of that would be pointless, silly, petty, and off-topic - much like the post itself.



* Be it known to all to whom it may concern, that this post should in no way be construed as a reply to, or an attempt at direct conversation with, certain persons who do not wish to be replied to or otherwise engaged in civilized discourse with said poster and/or anyone who has a dissenting opinion. (Not to imply in any way that aforementioned unnamed person would care or otherwise be troubled.)

RCSignals
11-02-2010, 03:54 AM
Really I personally don't think the collar tip of the 'main hero' jacket was sharply pointed, I think it had some roundness to the tip as did the so called 'Hawaii' jacket. I do not think the tip was more, or at least very much more rounded than the 'Hawaii' jacket collar tip. What appears to be a great deal of roundness in some examples is illusion.

Marauder
11-02-2010, 03:58 AM
OK, now that we have all of that out of the way, lets get back to some good discussion of collar tips...... :police:

Mac
11-02-2010, 05:59 AM
The problem with the "folded paper" theory becomes apparent when you consider the inner seam:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/IdiotsGuideToPerspective.jpg

In this close-up the distance between the inner seam and the outer edge is constant (i.e. there is no folded corner illusion):

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar4.jpg

- Mac

Gunslinger
11-02-2010, 09:09 AM
Ok, just caught up. So how about I side-step the arguments that have erupted and re-pose my earlier question - how MUCH do we think it's curving? What can we get a "pointy" collar to do vs. a "curved"?

(Though I guess the problem is it's pretty hard to nail down the angle for such a visual argument.)

So let me pose another question - does my existing Nowak's collar tips look "off" in any way?

PS. BTW - a 55mm lens on a high quality SLR gives you very similar optics to most of the shots in the movie.

neutronbomb
11-03-2010, 06:20 PM
The problem with your post below along with the previous one is the pomposity and personal ridicule that it contains. You acknowledge the point that the way you came across would cause anger from the receiving party, but then go ahead and restate how useless the information is. The point was totally ignored that I was making that I could respond in like. Your post below ignores that point and continues on with "silly", "pointless", "etc.", "much like the post itself" statements. Then a disclaimer is thrown in that simply continues with the same theme including the false statement I do not want a dissenting opinion concluding with sarcasm. The names you are giving your photos, "http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/NBisWrongAboutCollar4.jp" are offensive and inappropriate.

This site was started with a handful of Charter Members who agreed to help with lots and lots of time and effort to get this new site up and rolling with content and posts. We wanted something different than was currently available and we wanted a place where we and others could post our ideas, thoughts, and what we see without having pomposity, ridicule, sarcasm, and personal attacks directed at the person posting. One of the reasons for this site is the ability to throw everything out the window and discuss and examine various subjects without an "establishment". I am one of those Charter Members and have spent considerable time in fulfilling what the handful of us who got this site rolling agreed to do. If you're going to continue down this road, I'm going to need to ask you to leave this thread. Unless you have the jackets that were used in the movie and all the documentation from the production, then your opinion is an opinion. Not a fact. Unless you have all of those items, then "there is no evidence", "that hasn't been established", "that's ridiculous" statements do not apply here at this site. We are eliminating the use of rumor, innuendo, total hearsay, and a handful of guys with an opinion's say so from the equation on what is given as a basis for establishing "It is so".

This means that because you chose to have a dissenting opinion does not make it so. It does not make it fact and if three or five or dozen people agree with you it doesn't establish it as right or as fact. Using ridicule, pomposity, and sarcasm directed at the person you disagree with doesn't either. And I'm not claiming that what I see or that my opinion does either. In several of my posts I have asked for dissenting opinion. Tear the idea apart. Let's discuss alternative theories. I'm all for that. But, leave the attitude at the door.

What I posted I posted as what I see. I stated that. I didn't state that it was fact. I considered everything, including what you and KT brought to the table and I don't see it that way. Everyone who reads the thread can consider all the information and make their opinion. Maybe no one thinks I have it right. I'm fine with that. But, I'm not fine with with your approach at the personal level. The ridicule approach is not going to be tolerated because it shuts down others from posting opinions that might run contrary to yours because of the ridicule and sarcasm you seem to relish lavishing upon the person.

Gunslinger, RCSignals, Crismans, myself, and others do not see everything the same either. We are in disagreement about many things. There are many threads here where that can be seen.

Here's an example of how Gunslinger is disagreeing: "I see what you're getting at Bryan, but my head is locked on the middle-top image that I posted - you can see the stitching line and where the pinched leather is radiating out from each needle-holes." What he's doing is stating what he sees and why he believes it is different than how I'm viewing it. He looked at what I posted and considered it. That's all anyone can ask for.

These are the ways to have an appropriate discussion and to disagree with someone. It's easy enough to simply do what KT did and show a photo of what he thinks is going on. Crismans thought it was a great example.

For instance, the last photo you showed was a perfect example of how to argue your case. I like it and respect it because I examined that argument also. In the end, I think the photo is showing what you maintain it doesn't.

What I meant when I said stop replying directly to me is something you completely ignored and chose to just continue along in the same vein. Sarcasm and ridicule. Cutesy names for your photos and a disclaimer that didn't disclaim anything. Using terms like useless and worthless. I'm certainly not going to allow those responses and I'm not going to be nice about it. So if you can't show more respect to those you disagree with, then I am telling you to stop replying and to stay out of my thread. If I see you continuing to do this with others in their threads, then I'm likely going to ask the others who are helping get this site up and running for their help in putting an end to it.






"utterly worthless"
Mac when I see this in my thread that I started it pisses me off.

Certainly, but the point remains that those reposted photos are far too blurry, out of focus, and riddled with artifacts to provide any useful information with regard to the topic. If you're offended by the choice of words to describe those photos, then I withdraw them as they are meant to be descriptive of the quality rather than to be provocative.*

Replying to the rest of that would be pointless, silly, petty, and off-topic - much like the post itself.



* Be it known to all to whom it may concern, that this post should in no way be construed as a reply to, or an attempt at direct conversation with, certain persons who do not wish to be replied to or otherwise engaged in civilized discourse with said poster and/or anyone who has a dissenting opinion. (Not to imply in any way that aforementioned unnamed person would care or otherwise be troubled.)

Indiego Jones
11-03-2010, 08:10 PM
edited. sorry, posted on a moment of rage.

Mac, THERE'S NO NEED TO BE ARROGANT AND SARCASTIC.
You can show your point, agreeing or disagreeing with other's point of view.
BUT BE RESPECTFUL.

I'm sorry for my tone.
Regards.-


mod note: Post placed back at the request of Indiego jones

Marauder
11-03-2010, 08:42 PM
Indiego Jones, your post was valid and expressed the situation well.

There is no need to use ridicule and sarcsasm in discussions such as this. Some of it may be unintentioned, but the way of expression makes the conclusion unavoidable. It's noticed by many.

Gunslinger
11-03-2010, 09:35 PM
The problem is that coming in with too much of an attitude like this stifles the debate. In this case, it made me feel like crap to disagree with Bryan.

So sure, we want to have an open, honest, healthy debate here, but come on, if you want to hammer someone, do it with with evidence and it makes the insults irrelevant. Do it with insults and it makes others notwant to agree with you even if you are right.

Mac
11-03-2010, 09:58 PM
The problem with your post below along with the previous one is the pomposity and personal ridicule that it contains.
Pardon me Bryan, but nowhere have I personally I attacked you. These posts are examples of personal attacks (and far off topic to boot):


I could care less really if it's one way or the other, so it's just what I see. I actually really don't care what you have to say about it or if you think I'm wrong. If you're trying to convince me, your wasting your time and it just bores me so if your responding to my posts for my benefit please stop and don't address them at me. You're way behind the curve as far as I'm concerned.


However, Since, we're being so honest and frank here and all, I think you're a complete idiot all the way. I really do. See, we can totally go that route. Don't think for a second I'm going to be a nice guy when I see that pop up in the thread and then you thinking you're cute with the name you give your screengrabs. You want to share what you see, fine. You've done it. You keep stalking my posts and playing devil's advocate just for the sake and getting personal and cutesy, I'm going serve it up.

And now both sides are rounded. LOL.
After the latter, my reply was sharp and cutting, but certainly appropriate given your hysterics and personal insults, and not nearly as far as I could have escalated it if I had replied point-by-point to rock your e-world. In my view it only makes one look foolish to throw a tantrum and to lash out someone on a public forum. If you have problem with me or my tone, wouldn’t it have better been handled in a PM?

What I name my photos is my business. The names afforded easy recall of the purpose, rather something generic such as “CollarTemple583292.” My photos hardly have lewd or controversial names, and the name does not appear publicly unless you actually make the effort to check (and who does that?).


I am one of those Charter Members and have spent an considerable time in fulfilling what the handful of us who got this site rolling agreed to do. If you're going to continue down this road, I'm going to need to ask you to leave.
So, now you’re a founder, one of the respected big boys, a BMOC, much like the “old guard” you’ve railed against (and rebelled against) when they slapped down your theories and notions. And if I don’t tow the line, if I say you’re wrong and your evidence is weak, plainly and without sugar coating, I receive my walking papers? That’s irony.


Using ridicule, pomposity, and sarcasm directed at the person you disagree with doesn't either.
I should point out that it’s you, not I, that has a history of escalating forum discussions into petulant name calling and personal attacks (as well as ridicule, pomposity, and sarcasm). You have been banned in other venues for such behavior and I’ve seen here as well. I came here to talk about gear and if my posts directed in your general direction are laced with a certain veiled contempt, then perhaps it stems from the lack of respect for you from those earlier displays, but it’s your ideas and theories that I’m refuting, not you.

Unless the mods direct me otherwise I will continue to agree or disagree with your posts as I see fit. I would prefer not squander my valuable time publicly responding to infantile personal attacks, so in the future please direct them to my PM box rather than drag it into the public sphere.

Regarding the topic and specifically the apparent genesis of NB’s rant, as I’ve already withdrawn the word “worthless”, and I did predicate it with “Sorry NB, but...,” can anyone point out the redeeming or evidentiary value of photos such as this:


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/cabfight1_collartip7.jpg

- Mac

neutronbomb
11-03-2010, 10:45 PM
There are many of us here that have banned for "bad behavior" at other "sites". We are here for a reason and started this site for a reason. I view your posts purpose as to incite and neither I nor should anyone else here who puts in the time and energy to share their ideas be forced to deal with it. The point I think that is lost to you is that disagreement has nothing to do with the issue. Many of us here are arguing vigorously against each other and we're actually all for questing someones idea or "theory", however, none of us are promoting sarcasm, contempt (your word), ridicule, "slapping down", or belittlement against each other here as responses to people sharing their ideas and thoughts.

Mac
11-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Fair enough NB. I was, believe it or not, restrained in replying to your posts (the one with the insults). Prior to that, I was simply disagreeing with your thesis and backing it up with solid evidence (obviously my opinion). I continued with the paper illustration, without passion or sarcasm and would have left it there until your post today, in which I felt I had to respond.

As far as I'm concerned, from here on out, we can go back to arguing about the merits of our various theories and leave out the personal element. We've both aired our concerns and if in the future you feel I'm being unfair, PM me and I will explain or apologize as appropriate.

- Mac

Marauder
11-03-2010, 11:43 PM
Hopefully this is the mark of an agreement and the discussion may continue