PDA

View Full Version : The TOD hat and the Last Crusade hat are the same hat!



jasonalun
07-22-2010, 06:59 PM
For my first post here, I'd like to voice my "controversial" opinion that would likely get me flamed and eventually suspended somewhere else:

The TOD hat (at least the Herbert Johnson in it, obviously not the Stetson) is the same as the Last Crusade hat! Everyone seems to think the TOD is so different and tapered, but if you look very closely, you can see that the scenes in which it looks very tapered (cockpit scene anyone?), it is because the back/side part of the hat is bashed in. If I do that to my Garrison Raider, it looks ridiculously tapered as well! If you look at scenes like the bridge scene in TOD, and compare that to the horse-following tank scene in LC, you can see that the block is very close, if not identical (hard to be absolutely sure with just screenshots). Since the TOD and LC hats were not bespoken like the Raiders but off-the-shelf hats from HJ, there's no reason to think that the block changed in between TOD and LC. It could have, but from what I see on the screen, it didn't. It's a regular HJ Poet model. It is just bashed differently in the two movies. I've always wondered why they went from a severe, sharp pinch in Raiders to an almost non-existent pinch in TOD, than to an in-between pinch in LC. ?

neutronbomb
07-23-2010, 06:05 PM
I haven't heard that theory before Dr. Jones. At first glance, the TOD hat does seems to be rather tapered towards the crown and maybe looks like a shorter crown when I look at it compared to the LC. I haven't looked at it as closely as you have, but it would be interesting to examine it using the 3D layering system that Yojimbo developed for use with hats. I can see your point though that maybe it's possible the difference in bashing between the two hats gives an optical illusion that the blocks must be different. I'll have to find pics of the scenes you mention where the block looks similar.

I've also wondered about why they went with a pretty much non existent pinch in the TOD.

jasonalun
07-23-2010, 06:36 PM
Welcome, neutronbomb!

The thing that I think throws people off is that the LC hat appears to have a tall crown, due to the bash and the angles it is most often seen from in the movie. However, I've got a long series of screen shots that I think prove conclusively that the LC hat really has a fairly short crown as well, like the TOD hat. I estimated based on the screen shots (some showing an open crown as the bash had gotten knocked out - see Indy-on-horseback-tank-chase scene) that the LC crown is possibly as short as 5"! (open crown). The Raiders hat, on the other hand, seems to be no shorter than 5 1/2". Doesn't seem like much, but for a hat that is a lot. It may be 5 1/4", it's impossible to be sure from screen shots, but I think I can prove definitively that is is shorter than the Raiders crown by as much as a quarter inch. As soon as I have some time I'll post my screen shots.

neutronbomb
07-23-2010, 09:39 PM
I'm sure we'll get some pics rolling soon. It's things like this makes me wonder if the standard "in LC they went back to a raiderish block" is based on researched fact or a fan consensus that since it "appears/looks" like a taller/wider crown, then that must be what they did. For instance, it's been stated as plain old "information" that HJ changed the block. Is it just speculation?

jasonalun
07-23-2010, 09:51 PM
I think it's just fan "consensus" and speculation. I've never seen or heard of any evidence that HJ changed blocks. On the contrary, we have adamant statements from Richard Swales who was manager of the HJ shop in England who supplied Spielberg with all the hats for the first three movies (with the possible exception of a Stetson or two in TOD) that the hat block he used was their "Poet" model, which has been around allegedly since the 19th century. We have no reason to doubt Swales word on that and it was only Steve Delk's ruminations to the contrary that started (or lent credence to) the whole "the blocks changed" legend. But I've even heard Steve acknowledge that the block used on subsequent hats to Raiders may have been the one Poet block after all.

neutronbomb
07-23-2010, 10:13 PM
So the poet block that's been around for that long was what Swales says he used for the TOD and LC. So does that mean they were using some unknown block for the Raiders and then for some reason switched to the Poet.

jasonalun
07-24-2010, 12:34 AM
For all I can piece together, that seems to be the case. Swales always swore the Raiders hat was a Poet as well, but I just can't see that, and neither can the hatmakers that have made accurate Raiders blocks. I think Swales just got confused and when asked 15 years after the fact (and after TOD and LC) he just said it was the Poet because that's all he remembered from TOD and LC. I think the Raider's block was an in-shop block that Swales used when he hand-made the Raiders hats. Then, when he got the contract for TOD, he wised up and got them made by the factory, and since they didn't have the in-house block Swales had, they used the "closest" thing they could find - the Poet. So that's what all the subsequent hats were made on.

neutronbomb
07-24-2010, 12:46 AM
I totally hadn't heard that Swales made the Raider's hats in shop. Somehow I was always under the impression that they were stock HJ hats ready to buy as is and all he did was the dimensional cut. If he blocked the hats himself.......I wonder the block wound up.

crismans
07-24-2010, 01:59 AM
Another point is that, while Nadoolman was the costume designer for Raiders, Anthony Powell was costume designer for both Temple and Crusade. So it makes a kind of logical sense that the last two movies would make use of the same hat, just with a different type of bash.

And, you're right Dr. Jones. The Temple hat is much disparaged because of the airplane scenes. But if you watch the movie, Capshaw grabs the hat and smushes it. Ford gets it back and never straightens it. It is really crumpled in the back during the cockpit scene.

jasonalun
07-24-2010, 02:40 AM
Good point, Starsky. I'm sure Bernie Pollack would come back to Steve Delk for the hat if they do another one, since they tend to stick with what was successful and they liked.

Here are some quick screen shots I just threw together to show my point. I don't have time for measurements and all that (will try sometime later) but I think these shots show the clear resemblance in block shape to each other, even in the "bad, "tapered" shots!

if anything, the TOD hat in the first set looks slightly taller than the LC hat!

Nefarious
07-25-2010, 03:30 AM
hey folks....glad to be here!

the bridge scene in TOD has 2 distinct hats.....the actual 'on the bridge' hat that is quite straight sided and tall (production hat that was on location in sri lanka where the bridge was constructed). this was rumored to be an actual hj from the raiders era but to me, never looked tall enough.....i wish i could reach into the tv screen and tighten up that pinch to see...LOL the hat can also be seen in that famous tod promo pic of ford on the bridge with the sword in hand. the second hat was the hat used for the studio shots...ie - hanging off the wrecked bridge, mine scenes, etc. (remember the far shots on this hat was of the stuntman's hat). this hat, i believe also made an appearance in the opening village scene as the center bash looks to match too closely in its irregularity). also rumored to be the infamous cockpit tapered hat...the one that was crushed, which is why it looks so bad. now, i believe there was another hat used when they shot the campfire scene. it looks like the actual 'on the bridge' hat, but this scene was shot in the studio. it does not look like the studio hat however.....

but my main point is.....i believe that the campfire hat is of the same era as the LC tank chase hat. look really close to me. those scenes were shot in tunisia as well iirc....when they make it over to the temple (petra)....that's where that really cruddy short brimmed stetson makes it's appearance. gotta love movie magic as it makes indy's hat morph seamlessly from scene to scen....LOL

crismans
07-25-2010, 04:21 AM
The campfire hat seems to have a really tight pinch as well (or the tightest you'll see in Temple). It almost looks Raiderish to my eyes.

bendingoak
08-03-2010, 06:00 AM
For my first post here, I'd like to voice my "controversial" opinion that would likely get me flamed and eventually suspended somewhere else:

The TOD hat (at least the Herbert Johnson in it, obviously not the Stetson) is the same as the Last Crusade hat! Everyone seems to think the TOD is so different and tapered, but if you look very closely, you can see that the scenes in which it looks very tapered (cockpit scene anyone?), it is because the back/side part of the hat is bashed in. If I do that to my Garrison Raider, it looks ridiculously tapered as well! If you look at scenes like the bridge scene in TOD, and compare that to the horse-following tank scene in LC, you can see that the block is very close, if not identical (hard to be absolutely sure with just screenshots). Since the TOD and LC hats were not bespoken like the Raiders but off-the-shelf hats from HJ, there's no reason to think that the block changed in between TOD and LC. It could have, but from what I see on the screen, it didn't. It's a regular HJ Poet model. It is just bashed differently in the two movies. I've always wondered why they went from a severe, sharp pinch in Raiders to an almost non-existent pinch in TOD, than to an in-between pinch in LC. ?



I agree with you that both Hj from both movies (TOD and LC ) are from the same block and the same production hat. Its not a custom like the Raiders hat from HJ. The big tell beside the overall shape would be the ribbon. The ribbon is a signature of any hats and both the TOD and LC are the same.

jasonalun
08-03-2010, 06:42 AM
Well it's certainly nice to know I have an experienced, knowledgable hatmaker in my corner. :) I didn't know that ribbons were such a signature of hats. It doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of variety when it comes to fedora ribbons (maybe I'm wrong about that), so I figured there was perhaps a lot of overlap between ribbons and different fedoras. Guess not. Thanks, Oak.

I hope some time to get together the screen shots I had that show even more clearly how close the two hats look. A lot about a hat's look can change just by the creasing of it.

Darctic_jones
08-03-2010, 02:02 PM
The main difference is that Deborah Nadoolman put more work into that hat than Powell did.

Anyone can sew a bow, the raiders hat and tod hat are the same block as well, its just how its bashed/styled. I've seen raiders "era' poets that had a very similar ( if not exact ) shape to the tod/lc hats

BTW LC has tallest hats in the bunch, Raiders and TOD are same height, some hats in LC maybe. But also taller hats.

The thing is , Swales did know the correct height, but a very persistent fan kept "bugging" him with calls about details on the hat (for a copy of the poet basically ) which led to Swales giving out a false statement about the hat height to get the guy off his tail.

RaidersFrontPinch
08-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Hello, everybody

I know, it's not the right place to do this (but where is it, I couldn't find it?), but first I want to introduce me as a new member of this very good looking forum.
First I have to make an confession - I'm from Germany (no nazi...I hate this guys ;) ) and my English aint that good to keep up with you guys here. But I will learning by doing.

In my opinion, it is right, that the LC and the ToD hat are the same. But the bash on both is a little bit different. I am no expert like you guys, but the sides of the LC hat got a little more drive than the ToD.
Of course, both are made from the same block - like the Raiders do, too.
Feel free to correct this and have a nice day.

jasonalun
08-03-2010, 04:38 PM
Wilkommen, RaidersFrontPinch! Wie heissen Sie? Meine Frau ist auf Deutchland. Hope you better your English faster than I am doing my German! :( Your English sounds fine, by the way.



The raiders hat and tod hat are the same block as well, its just how its bashed/styled. I've seen raiders "era' poets that had a very similar ( if not exact ) shape to the tod/lc hats

BTW LC has tallest hats in the bunch, Raiders and TOD are same height, some hats in LC maybe. But also taller hats.


I'm afraid I can't agree with you there, Darctic_jones, but your certainly entitled to your opinion. I have a spot on accurate Raiders hat (the Garrison Raider http://garrisonhatters.com and I've confirmed it by matching views of my hat with screen shots from the film) and a Poet-styled hat, and I can tell you there is difference between the Poet block and the Raiders block. They ARE close, but the Raiders block is somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2" taller than the Poet. The LC is the same height as the TOD, as I mentioned, but they are both shorter than the Raiders hat. I do agree with you though that creasing makes a big difference , much bigger than some people realize. I can make a Poet look like a pretty accurate Raiders hat (from most angles), and I can make a Raiders hat look like a Poet hat (even a TOD!) just by creasing it the right way. But there are ways to tell differences in blocks, and I firmly believe the Raiders hat is just a bit taller than the Poet.

bendingoak
08-03-2010, 07:13 PM
I think it is possible that both the Raiders block and the poet block could have been blocked at the same height but the shape makes them crease down to two different heights.

Gunslinger
08-03-2010, 10:47 PM
The main thing that strikes me isn't just the amount of taper on the ToD / LC hat - it's the lack of camel humps / depth of the crease. I've never bother buying a stock Poet to examine in person, but it's got to either have an absolute ton of dome (wide arc to the top when unbashed) and/or about half an inch less height, in order to come out at the height it is and still have such a shallow crease as you see. Thats a superficial guess though, as I've never had a huge amount of interest in the other hats to examine the differences in detail.

Kt Templar
08-03-2010, 10:49 PM
Grab a Christys' it's pretty much it!

Gunslinger
08-03-2010, 11:08 PM
Oh, D'oh! Need a head-slap emoticon! That's what I get for typing before I've had my morning coffee. I had dismissed the blockshapes of both the modern HJ and the Christys so much in trying to get the Raiders shape that I completely forgot they're basically one and the same.

RCSignals
08-03-2010, 11:10 PM
You mean the modern HJ and Christy's are the same block shape, not the same as the Raiders block....

Gunslinger
08-04-2010, 12:54 AM
Yes, that's right. The Raiders block is a whole other animal. But from what I've read, the blockshape of the HJ Poet and Christys hasn't hanged since the LC era.

crismans
08-04-2010, 01:52 AM
The main difference is that Deborah Nadoolman put more work into that hat than Powell did.

I don't know about "more work" but I definitely feel that Nadoolman deserves a lot more "props" than she gets from certain quarters. Nothing against Powell, but I think that Nadoolman has a real gift/artistry that shines through.

I don't doubt that some of our (mine anyway) allegiance to the Raiders look (yes, some like a look from another movie better, but Raiders seems to be the clear favorite) comes from our reaction/love of the movie itself. But some of it is that the Raiders look is just a great look that really appealed or "spoke" to us. Since we're dealing with a costume, I feel it's only logical to give credit for that to the costume designer.

bendingoak
08-04-2010, 07:22 AM
The christys and the HJ poet is the same hat blocked on the same block. Other than the HJ name. There is no difference in the two.


I think the difference for the TOD/LC is the dome. About an 1/8 inch or so of height is taken up by the dome ( when creased). The Raiders crease isn't as deep as most think it is. Most of the camel humps ( as most call it ) is from the drop in the back. Its a bit of a trick on the eye/camera/

Gunslinger
08-04-2010, 08:57 AM
I'm saying this having not really studies the ToD / LC hats, but my impression is that because the Raiders has less dome, it has a greater physical area of felt at the top of the block, so when bashed, that felt has to go somewhere, so its camel humps' inner curves are stronger.

The best metaphor is - work with me - like cleavage. The ToD / LC is "unsupported" whereas the Raiders is like a Wonderbra effect. 8)

jasonalun
08-04-2010, 12:27 PM
If you wanted to get your point across, you picked the right analogy, G! :D Well said!

Darctic_jones
08-04-2010, 01:49 PM
The christys and the HJ poet is the same hat blocked on the same block. Other than the HJ name. There is no difference in the two.


I think the difference for the TOD/LC is the dome. About an 1/8 inch or so of height is taken up by the dome ( when creased). The Raiders crease isn't as deep as most think it is. Most of the camel humps ( as most call it ) is from the drop in the back. Its a bit of a trick on the eye/camera/


Exactly !

Here's my two hats:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Indiana_Dirk/DSCN0038.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Indiana_Dirk/DSCN0037.jpg

bendingoak
08-04-2010, 01:51 PM
I'm saying this having not really studies the ToD / LC hats, but my impression is that because the Raiders has less dome, it has a greater physical area of felt at the top of the block, so when bashed, that felt has to go somewhere, so its camel humps' inner curves are stronger.

The best metaphor is - work with me - like cleavage. The ToD / LC is "unsupported" whereas the Raiders is like a Wonderbra effect. 8)


:D :D I will never look at a Raiders hat again the same way.

I do agree with your thinking.

bigrex
08-08-2010, 09:16 PM
The main difference is that Deborah Nadoolman put more work into that hat than Powell did.

I don't know about "more work" but I definitely feel that Nadoolman deserves a lot more "props" than she gets from certain quarters. Nothing against Powell, but I think that Nadoolman has a real gift/artistry that shines through.

I don't doubt that some of our (mine anyway) allegiance to the Raiders look (yes, some like a look from another movie better, but Raiders seems to be the clear favorite) comes from our reaction/love of the movie itself. But some of it is that the Raiders look is just a great look that really appealed or "spoke" to us. Since we're dealing with a costume, I feel it's only logical to give credit for that to the costume designer.


Yes, I find the Raiders look to be more nuanced and less cookie cutter and manufactured compared to the other Indy films. Her work looks like it was done by hand with deliberate precision (even if it was allowing more natural wear to take it's natural course during a film production), the other's as far as style, distressing, lack of distressing, etc., looked rather inferior in my opinion.

indyclone25
08-13-2010, 11:51 PM
Welcome, neutronbomb!

The thing that I think throws people off is that the LC hat appears to have a tall crown, due to the bash and the angles it is most often seen from in the movie. However, I've got a long series of screen shots that I think prove conclusively that the LC hat really has a fairly short crown as well, like the TOD hat. I estimated based on the screen shots (some showing an open crown as the bash had gotten knocked out - see Indy-on-horseback-tank-chase scene) that the LC crown is possibly as short as 5"! (open crown). The Raiders hat, on the other hand, seems to be no shorter than 5 1/2". Doesn't seem like much, but for a hat that is a lot. It may be 5 1/4", it's impossible to be sure from screen shots, but I think I can prove definitively that is is shorter than the Raiders crown by as much as a quarter inch. As soon as I have some time I'll post my screen shots.


i havent read the rest of the replies yet but this stuck out for me , when you say that people percieve the lc hat seems to have a taller crown it does in two shots when it's sitting next to the stone tablet in donovans and when indy gets off the launch in veinna the crown is tall in those shots , thats in my opinion, then in different shots the hat is smaller . ;D

bendingoak
08-14-2010, 12:26 AM
Crown height alone means nothing at all without the block shape. I don't think the LC hat was 5" tall open crown. I do think there is at least one abbot that height in the movie. I think both hats ( TOD and LC ) had several different specs to them.

The other thing to consider is if you change on aspect of a hat it throws off the others in appearance.

jasonalun
08-14-2010, 02:03 AM
Crown height alone means nothing at all without the block shape. I don't think the LC hat was 5" tall open crown. I do think there is at least one abbot that height in the movie. I think both hats ( TOD and LC ) had several different specs to them.

The other thing to consider is if you change on aspect of a hat it throws off the others in appearance.


I doubt it myself after more research (since that first post you quoted) but I do think that hat he's wearing in the bi-plane looks pretty close. That crown looks very short - not sure what all is going on there. I suspect it may even be shrunken a bit from heat and use.

bendingoak
08-14-2010, 09:31 AM
Im a bit confused. What do you doubt?

RCSignals
08-15-2010, 03:32 AM
Im a bit confused. What do you doubt?


Yeah? I think he's agreeing with you about crown height

jasonalun
08-15-2010, 05:20 PM
Im a bit confused. What do you doubt?


Sorry, guess I wasn't too clear there. I agree with you about crown height. I do think most of the hats in LC are slightly over 5", probably somewhere around 5 1/4" perhaps. I wonder if the plane hat (when they escape from the zeppelin) isn't close to 5" maybe just due to shrinkage or something. That hat it pretty short-looking. On the other hand it might just be the center crease has gotten jammed down real deep and that takes the front and back down more than usual. It is hard to see much in those scenes because the movement is so fast.

bendingoak
08-15-2010, 07:25 PM
I think the cock pit hat isva higher crown clser to 5 3/8 - 5 1/2.

jasonalun
08-15-2010, 08:06 PM
I think the cock pit hat isva higher crown clser to 5 3/8 - 5 1/2.


Are you pulling my leg, John, or are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about the hat in the bi-plane scene of Last Crusade.
http://a.imageshack.us/img688/6370/vlcsnap309388.th.jpg (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/vlcsnap309388.jpg/)

That's a short-looking crown. Granted, I think some of it is due to deep center crease or maybe even some shrinkage, but that's short.

bendingoak
08-15-2010, 10:42 PM
Not talking about that plane or that movie. I was talking about the TOD cockpit scene. When someone talkes about a hat and they say " cockpit " , my mind goes to that one.

I agree this is a shorter crown hat (LC).

Fedora
09-02-2010, 05:42 PM
Wilkommen, RaidersFrontPinch! Wie heissen Sie? Meine Frau ist auf Deutchland. Hope you better your English faster than I am doing my German! :( Your English sounds fine, by the way.



The raiders hat and tod hat are the same block as well, its just how its bashed/styled. I've seen raiders "era' poets that had a very similar ( if not exact ) shape to the tod/lc hats

BTW LC has tallest hats in the bunch, Raiders and TOD are same height, some hats in LC maybe. But also taller hats.


I'm afraid I can't agree with you there, Darctic_jones, but your certainly entitled to your opinion. I have a spot on accurate Raiders hat (the Garrison Raider http://garrisonhatters.com and I've confirmed it by matching views of my hat with screen shots from the film) and a Poet-styled hat, and I can tell you there is difference between the Poet block and the Raiders block. They ARE close, but the Raiders block is somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2" taller than the Poet. The LC is the same height as the TOD, as I mentioned, but they are both shorter than the Raiders hat. I do agree with you though that creasing makes a big difference , much bigger than some people realize. I can make a Poet look like a pretty accurate Raiders hat (from most angles), and I can make a Raiders hat look like a Poet hat (even a TOD!) just by creasing it the right way. But there are ways to tell differences in blocks, and I firmly believe the Raiders hat is just a bit taller than the Poet.


I believe the Raiders fedora had a flatter dome than the TOD, as I can see it from just looking at pics of the hat from behind. Plus experimenting with various domes over the years tells me this is true as well. Once you look at a lot of different shaped domes, after creased, it is very obvious, at least to me of the difference in domes. Plus, if you look at the TOD hat from behind, you can clearly see a "blocked in taper" in the TOD hat while the Raiders seen from behind has no discernable taper in the block itself. IMO. The hat outside the temple at the beginning of Raiders shows a flattish dome as that hat was creased very shallow, and has a square look about it, (the crown) even with shallow creases in the top. The only dome that will lend this look tends to be flatter rather than domey.