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neutronbomb
09-11-2010, 12:24 AM
Could there be some kind of device attached to the back of this Jacket that they used for the dust billowing effect from the back of the jacket for the Hovitos Chase?
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1119-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1120-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1121-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1122-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1123-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1124-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1125-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1126-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1127-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1128-1.jpg

If so, then someone's bare bum is hanging in the wind:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1129-1.jpg

Gunslinger
09-11-2010, 02:18 AM
No, no, no, Bryan. It's the CLOTH MOCKUP! Can't you see!? :D

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
09-11-2010, 05:24 AM
oh...the jacquard? :rolleyes:

Gunslinger
09-11-2010, 06:22 AM
oh...the jacquard? :rolleyes:


:laugh: Ah yes, memories of the greatest comedian of our times... If only he knew it.

PLATON
09-11-2010, 10:17 AM
Recently it has been said that there was no cloth mock up.

No device there I think. I guess they just loaded him with dust. Not earth dirt, but maybe burnt coal dust, makes the biggest effect.

crismans
09-11-2010, 02:24 PM
I think Platon's probably got it right. I'd say they covered the jacket with a light dust (did they have Fuller's back then?). Maybe wood ash, something that would give the right effect.

Although, to be accurate (if my memory is holding up), the premise of the cloth jacket was first introduced by another person. This person (who I've never known to "falsify" anything), stated that Ford had called him as he was doing some research on a possible role (I think the project turned out to be Private Ryan) and the member was a currator at a WWII museum. In the course of the conversation, Ford reportedly stated that jacket was cloth because they couldn't get the dust to fly off "right" on the leather.

PLATON
09-11-2010, 02:47 PM
Yes "ash" is what I meant.

Marauder
09-12-2010, 03:11 AM
I does look like there may be something applied to the back of that jacket. Maybe it is a piece of cloth applied to the back of the jacket to hold the 'dust' better and that is what was meant by cloth in the conversation Crisman mentions?

crismans
09-12-2010, 04:56 PM
Almost looks like they dusted him with flour in those shots.

djd
09-12-2010, 09:41 PM
I think Platon's probably got it right. I'd say they covered the jacket with a light dust (did they have Fuller's back then?). Maybe wood ash, something that would give the right effect.

Although, to be accurate (if my memory is holding up), the premise of the cloth jacket was first introduced by another person. This person (who I've never known to "falsify" anything), stated that Ford had called him as he was doing some research on a possible role (I think the project turned out to be Private Ryan) and the member was a currator at a WWII museum. In the course of the conversation, Ford reportedly stated that jacket was cloth because they couldn't get the dust to fly off "right" on the leather.


I have to say, that it looks rather like a cloth jacket when he's swiming out to Jocks plane.

The Character
09-13-2010, 08:25 AM
There is clearly a device on the jacket in this sequence ...

well i say device its a a rectangle of cloth draped across HF's shoulders .... that said in these posted images you can't really tell other than the two (what looks like) pieces of gaffer tape holding the cloth down in the centre.

However if you watch the HD version in the sequence prior to the one shown where he's running A -through the jungle (past mules and statue) and B towards camera (over the open plain area) you can clearly see the cloth draped across the shoulders flying up (at the lower edges/corners) as he runs .... its distinctly not the jacket flaps .... Go have a look.

Clearly they taped the top edge of the cloth across the leather (or stitched it Aaaaaaargh!) and stuffed a shedload of fullers earth .... its clay dust so yes it was around then .... under the cloth and then taped or stitched the centre part of the cloth down..... this allowed the dust to fall free from either side as he does the run ....

The cloth also being saturated with FE ... naturally billows dust as the wings/corners flap as well so its a smart idea ... the flapping cloth billows the dust and the small reservoir of extra dust replenishes .... its difficult to get screen shots of it actually but watched as a moving image its clearly visible in several of the sequences.

I'm sure someone out there can mock one of these up?......

TC

Hollywood
09-13-2010, 10:08 PM
I think Platon's probably got it right. I'd say they covered the jacket with a light dust (did they have Fuller's back then?). Maybe wood ash, something that would give the right effect.

Although, to be accurate (if my memory is holding up), the premise of the cloth jacket was first introduced by another person. This person (who I've never known to "falsify" anything), stated that Ford had called him as he was doing some research on a possible role (I think the project turned out to be Private Ryan) and the member was a currator at a WWII museum. In the course of the conversation, Ford reportedly stated that jacket was cloth because they couldn't get the dust to fly off "right" on the leather.



LOL!!!!!!!!! I am amazed that the "person" who made that claim had the nerve since its as plain as day the jacket is leather. I guess among this persons many 007 stories, he should check his glasses prescription because he is getting sloppy with his stories.

Hollywood
09-13-2010, 10:12 PM
There is clearly a device on the jacket in this sequence ...

well i say device its a a rectangle of cloth draped across HF's shoulders .... that said in these posted images you can't really tell other than the two (what looks like) pieces of gaffer tape holding the cloth down in the centre.

However if you watch the HD version in the sequence prior to the one shown where he's running A -through the jungle (past mules and statue) and B towards camera (over the open plain area) you can clearly see the cloth draped across the shoulders flying up (at the lower edges/corners) as he runs .... its distinctly not the jacket flaps .... Go have a look.

Clearly they taped the top edge of the cloth across the leather (or stitched it Aaaaaaargh!) and stuffed a shedload of fullers earth .... its clay dust so yes it was around then .... under the cloth and then taped or stitched the centre part of the cloth down..... this allowed the dust to fall free from either side as he does the run ....

The cloth also being saturated with FE ... naturally billows dust as the wings/corners flap as well so its a smart idea ... the flapping cloth billows the dust and the small reservoir of extra dust replenishes .... its difficult to get screen shots of it actually but watched as a moving image its clearly visible in several of the sequences.

I'm sure someone out there can mock one of these up?......

TC


I have to ask.....and I am not trying to be a jerk, I respect your opinion, but where do you come up with this? You know its a cloth flap because your HD version on a 30 year old film shows it! Its laughable that anyone really uses screen caps on a movie this old to verify anything relating to details of costuming. Especially those scenes where there is a lot of action, and the grab is always slightly blurred. The film is only as good as its original negative, therfore a movie marketed in HD is not really HD, unless filmed in HD format. I do not believe that there was anything other than a ton of dusting to make this scene work. Unless someone can point to some VERIFYABLE piece of proof, then I think theories should be kept as that......theories, and not be presented as facts. I am always amazed that 1 person can see something, present this observation/ opinion as fact, then the heard simply follows and agrees. Please people ask for PROOF that can be verified independently when someone presents something as fact. Screen caps are not verifable because everyone sees something different, or what they want to see......its called "scotoma."

neutronbomb
09-13-2010, 11:21 PM
Well sh!t. You're a bit of a buzz kill. ??? ;)

Seriously though, I agree with your perspective. As a movie prop collector the bar for your definition for fact and proof is of course set very high. However for many fans, their participation and interest in the hobby is the film itself. It's fun to discuss the film and talk about what we possibly see and how maybe something happened. And I'd disagree that there's no way to tell anything whatsoever about an item from watching a film. It can be clearly seen for instance that one of the jackets seen in the movie has the yoke and arm seams aligned and that others in the movie do not. There's a million examples. The truck used in the truck chase. It's likely not pink. It's not a boat. It appears there are some people dressed in a military style uniform attempting to climb around the sides of the truck. Marion looked like a female to me. She's wearing a white dress. Not a yellow polk a dot bikini. And yes, it does indeed have two straps of what looks like gaffers tape (not that it necessarily is) right in the middle of his back. I agree with The Character. I think he's right. Sometimes watching the film can be useful. It's actually offensive to those of us who have watched the film and study the film to dismiss something out of hand that is as obvious as a kick in the balls. Again, I get your point though about needing documentation from wardrobe or costuming or something for what you consider definitive proof. I just didn't read The Character as stating a definitive fact like I guess you did. I thought he was simply sharing his theory of what he sees on film

I definitely believe we are on the same page with not wanting fan speculation or theory to become established as fact without the proof you've mentioned before that you use when researching the authenticity of items. I just thought it was a bit of a harsh response the The Character's idea.

Right in the middle of his back and it's not just dust. That's where we come up with this (I know you're not trying to be a jerk and I'm not either. Hopefully I'm not offending you):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1119-1.jpg

Gunslinger
09-14-2010, 12:23 AM
I agree with Bryan, obviously. It's all in good fun. Chances are that very few of us are going to get the chance to examine the read deal in person, so I for one just exclude that from the "game" of trying to pinpoint stuff. Its kind of like an advanced Where's Waldo mixed with a Rubiks Cube or whatever. But I 100% get your frustration, HW.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure in this case it's just whatever sort of costume dust dumped on his back. When he runs, the ripples of leather in his back form lines that are funneling the dust. Click the links below then hit 100% for the high res shots.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m06s185.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m06s185.png)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m48s127.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m48s127.png)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m54s186.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m54s186.png)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h55m22s187.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h55m22s187.png)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h55m34s52.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h55m34s52.png)

Hollywood
09-14-2010, 01:07 AM
Well sh!t. You're a bit of a buzz kill. ??? ;)

Seriously though, I agree with your perspective. As a movie prop collector the bar for your definition for fact and proof is of course set very high. However for many fans, their participation and interest in the hobby is the film itself. It's fun to discuss the film and talk about what we possibly see and how maybe something happened. And I'd disagree that there's no way to tell anything whatsoever about an item from watching a film. It can be clearly seen for instance that one of the jackets seen in the movie has the yoke and arm seams aligned and that others in the movie do not. There's a million examples. The truck used in the truck chase. It's likely not pink. It's not a boat. It appears there are some people dressed in a military style uniform attempting to climb around the sides of the truck. Marion looked like a female to me. She's wearing a white dress. Not a yellow polk a dot bikini. And yes, it does indeed have two straps of what looks like gaffers tape (not that it necessarily is) right in the middle of his back. I agree with The Character. I think he's right. Sometimes watching the film can be useful. It's actually offensive to those of us who have watched the film and study the film to dismiss something out of hand that is as obvious as a kick in the balls. Again, I get your point though about needing documentation from wardrobe or costuming or something for what you consider definitive proof. I just didn't read The Character as stating a definitive fact like I guess you did. I thought he was simply sharing his theory of what he sees on film

I definitely believe we are on the same page with not wanting fan speculation or theory to become established as fact without the proof you've mentioned before that you use when researching the authenticity of items. I just thought it was a bit of a harsh response the The Character's idea.

Right in the middle of his back and it's not just dust. That's where we come up with this (I know you're not trying to be a jerk and I'm not either. Hopefully I'm not offending you):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Dusty%20Jacket/DVDSnap1119-1.jpg





No harm and no offense taken.

crismans
09-14-2010, 01:13 AM
I think Platon's probably got it right. I'd say they covered the jacket with a light dust (did they have Fuller's back then?). Maybe wood ash, something that would give the right effect.

Although, to be accurate (if my memory is holding up), the premise of the cloth jacket was first introduced by another person. This person (who I've never known to "falsify" anything), stated that Ford had called him as he was doing some research on a possible role (I think the project turned out to be Private Ryan) and the member was a currator at a WWII museum. In the course of the conversation, Ford reportedly stated that jacket was cloth because they couldn't get the dust to fly off "right" on the leather.



LOL!!!!!!!!! I am amazed that the "person" who made that claim had the nerve since its as plain as day the jacket is leather. I guess among this persons many 007 stories, he should check his glasses prescription because he is getting sloppy with his stories.


A different person from whom you're thinking about relayed that story. But I understand your overall impressions of the person you are thinking about. ;)

jasonalun
09-14-2010, 02:32 AM
therfore a movie marketed in HD is not really HD, unless filmed in HD format.


Not to be a jerk either, Hollywood, but all movies filmed in 35mm (which Raiders was) or larger negative can be transfered to HD format and can actually have more detail than an HD video camera picture. 35mm can render between 4k and 6k of resolution, wheas HD video has just under 2k.
I have Star Trek on Blu-Ray, which was filmed on 35mm in 1967, and it looks as good as the nightly news in HD. Seriously - it looks like it was filmed yesterday. If Star Trek looks that good, being over 40 years old, I think Raiders will be pretty darn good as well, provided someone took care of the negatives.

Now, there are no officially released HD (720p, 1080i, or 1080p) versions of Raiders, so if The Character or anyone else is watching the DVD release on an HDTV they are not seeing anything more than watching the movie on a regular TV - there is no more detail on the DVD to see, it just may look a little crisper on the HDTV perhaps due to the deinterlacing. I've heard there are some bootleg 720p rips floating around but I don't know if any of us are using them. I kind of doubt it.

Kt Templar
09-14-2010, 04:12 AM
The HD versions out there are ripped from the regularly screened HD broadcasts. (they seem to be shown almost every week on one of the subscription HD channels here). They are .mov files and somewhat compressed, but you do get better resolution than standard DVD. The .mov files are about 4.5gb each.

These are different to the version from a couple of years ago and do not have the ads that those did.

jasonalun
09-14-2010, 04:55 AM
Thanks for the info, KT. I remember now it was you who told me about the 720p versions.

The Character
09-14-2010, 09:04 AM
Lol ... Maybe my HD copies of the film are better and clearer .. but to me watching it, its really pretty obvious there is a cloth across his shoulders .... it looks like a tea-towell stuck on there! It certainly flaps around enough in at least three distinctive scenes/cuts lol ....

... no skin off my nose. I apologise unreservedly for dissing the glorious cloth jacket theory held dear by ... millions ... well thousands ... hundreds? .... OK two people!....OK two is fine. Two people makes it kosher right?

Nah, Seriously though its not my place to persuade or dissuade anyone just state what I believe.. everyone is entitled to their opinion here.... thats what its for after all.

TC

The Character
09-14-2010, 09:12 AM
Also and BTW ... i did day you can't see it on screencaps.(for all the reasons stated here) I am talking purely about watching the standard live motion sequence from the DVD.... from the minute he exits the scene with Belloq upto but not including the plains run. The sequence through the forest is where you can see the cloth flapping clearest IMO.

TC

Hollywood
09-14-2010, 10:00 AM
Lol ... Maybe my HD copies of the film are better and clearer .. but to me watching it, its really pretty obvious there is a cloth across his shoulders .... it looks like a tea-towell stuck on there! It certainly flaps around enough in at least three distinctive scenes/cuts lol ....

... no skin off my nose. I apologise unreservedly for dissing the glorious cloth jacket theory held dear by ... millions ... well thousands ... hundreds? .... OK two people!....OK two is fine. Two people makes it kosher right?

Nah, Seriously though its not my place to persuade or dissuade anyone just state what I believe.. everyone is entitled to their opinion here.... thats what its for after all.

TC


Your entitled to an opinion. At least your searching for info on your own, using tools, rather then accepting others theories of others blindly. I still think that using footage from the film is primitive, when compared to using publicity stills, and actual artifacts. But hey, everyone to their own. I am not saying that the possibility is not there, I just don't believe in this case that cloth was used in part or whole.

neutronbomb
09-14-2010, 04:24 PM
I think Platon's probably got it right. I'd say they covered the jacket with a light dust (did they have Fuller's back then?). Maybe wood ash, something that would give the right effect.

Although, to be accurate (if my memory is holding up), the premise of the cloth jacket was first introduced by another person. This person (who I've never known to "falsify" anything), stated that Ford had called him as he was doing some research on a possible role (I think the project turned out to be Private Ryan) and the member was a currator at a WWII museum. In the course of the conversation, Ford reportedly stated that jacket was cloth because they couldn't get the dust to fly off "right" on the leather.



LOL!!!!!!!!! I am amazed that the "person" who made that claim had the nerve since its as plain as day the jacket is leather. I guess among this persons many 007 stories, he should check his glasses prescription because he is getting sloppy with his stories.


A different person from whom you're thinking about relayed that story. But I understand your overall impressions of the person you are thinking about. ;)


There is this excerpt where the cloth mock up is mentioned. I don't remember where it originated, but it's definitely been championed by a few people. As a side note, the Marin Grace jacket, bantu wind, hawaii, Tony connection that is laid out is a physical impossibility as the bantu wind jacket and the jacket used in the hawaii scene are two different jackets.

"I've talked to Ford about a lot of what he can recall relating to geek - er - I mean gear related stuff. He had a clear memory of the scene where he boards the Bantu. He was to get on the ship without a jacket. The script supervisor interrupted the shoot to point out it was night and we just saw him wearing a jacket. They took Martin Grace's jacket and put it on Ford. Martin's jacket was the "Hero" jacket during the Hawaii shooting. That jacket was the basis for Tony Nowak's Raider's jacket.

BUT, Peter/Leather Concessionaires made that jacket...

I've heard a lot of claims to differences in that jacket. But it was Martin's and was the jacket that Ford wore in Hawaii - except for the clothe mock-up in the Hovito's chase scene...

That dog don't hunt gentlemen..."

Hollywood
09-14-2010, 04:50 PM
After reading that quote, I feel the need to shower.......is that weird? :angel:

crismans
11-17-2010, 02:10 AM
A member on another site (he actually doesn't post there much anymore if at all) mentioned that he received a call from Ford about a movie Ford was considering--turned out it was Saving Private Ryan--and during the discussion Ford mentioned that the jacket he was wearing while running from the Hovitos (or wasn't it just during the river jump?) was cloth as they didn't want to put the leather jacket in the river.

This was commented on lightly but then was brought up by another certain member later with the added info that the jacket was a Jacquard (Sp?) jacket.

I'll admit up front that I don't believe the "info" that the jacket had a paisley pattern or what have you, but what about the assertion that the jacket was cloth? The first poster that mentioned it seemed quite reputable and didn't run around making wild claims as the second poster who brought up later has a habit of doing.

Gunslinger
11-17-2010, 03:05 AM
We have some captures in another thread here where it seems pretty clear the running in the field jacket is leather - you can see the dust rivering off it. But the jumping in the water one? Don't know. Maybe that's what Ford meant?

Ravenswood
11-17-2010, 02:10 PM
The reason behind using the cloth jacket for the running scene was that the crew needed something that dust would stick to, so that it could fly off of Indy in plumes as he was running from the Hovitos. Leather wasn't doing the trick. Here's the best screen-shot (which I found here on this site) that I can come up with which illustrates this caking of the dust on the jacket.

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy33/Ravenswood70/vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m54s186.png

crismans
11-17-2010, 02:52 PM
To me, it looks cloth there. Others have said it appears like leather to them.

Gunslinger
11-17-2010, 08:39 PM
The reason behind using the cloth jacket for the running scene was that the crew needed something that dust would stick to, so that it could fly off of Indy in plumes as he was running from the Hovitos. Leather wasn't doing the trick. Here's the best screen-shot (which I found here on this site) that I can come up with which illustrates this caking of the dust on the jacket.


Bear in mind that shot has been downsized. In watching the sequence in a decent resolution, to me it clearly looks like leather. What's more, it looks like a leather jacket with dust streaming down the back because it ISN'T sticking that well. You can see it happening.

The thing is, like so many other things, unfortunately we need to ask where your understanding of the above came from. It's not a fact. IIRC the Ford conversation indicated the shots actually involving water. This would have been shot at least an hour earlier.

Titus
11-17-2010, 08:54 PM
This would have been shot at least an hour earlier.

It could have actually been shot at any time, even days apart.

RCSignals
11-17-2010, 09:14 PM
I'd think they'd want the dust to billow off the jacket, not stick to it.

In another thread here someone posted a photo that shows what appears to some sort of patch on the back to facilitate this dust billowing. Who knows?

All I know is that does not appear to be a Paisley Jacquard cloth jacket.

Raider S
11-17-2010, 09:38 PM
The person who first posted details about his conversation with Harrison Ford seemed credible and sincere. He related a charming story that gave me no reason for doubt. Thinking back, my understanding was that a cloth jacket was used in the swimming/water, but I may be mistaken.

Of course there's the possibility a cloth jacket was used at some point but the scenes weren't used or appear in shots where it is impossible to discern what in fact is being worn.

Personally, I would never claim to know the type of fabric or even the difference between fabric, leather, or plastic from a photo. I have years of professional experience working with all types of images, have done forensic and scientific work related to images and image making, and can say without doubt what you believe see is not always what things are!

Gunslinger
11-17-2010, 10:26 PM
Absolultely agree, S. At the end of the day we can't KNOW it WAS leather. I guess my point is that what we see on screen so perfectly matches what you'd expect from the behaviour of the same jacket that we'd seen in other scenes, as well as the folds by the straps, etc. that I'd have to be given somethng damn compelling to think that it was anything but the obvious.

(BTW, also not taking anything away from the original guy that related his story with Ford.)

crismans
11-18-2010, 01:58 AM
(BTW, also not taking anything away from the original guy that related his story with Ford.)

You're not at all. I actually think that RS is right (now that he's mentioned it), in that, the original poster was referring to the jacket that goes into the river as the one Ford mentioned was cloth. The "running from the Hovitos" jacket was mentioned later.


All I know is that does not appear to be a Paisley Jacquard cloth jacket.

I honestly think some people make a game of throwing out the wildest crap possible--just to see if it will be believed. The Bantu Wind dock scene being filmed on a set is another example that comes to mind.

Raider S
11-18-2010, 02:10 AM
The Bantu Wind dock scene being filmed on a set is another example that comes to mind.


It wasn't...?

crismans
11-18-2010, 02:38 AM
The Bantu Wind dock scene being filmed on a set is another example that comes to mind.


It wasn't...?


Seems I remember a couple of guys making pretty compelling arguments that it wasn't. But what the hell do I know?

TheExit148
11-19-2010, 07:00 PM
To me (and I could be wrong in this) is that the jacket worn when Ford is running towards the camera is leather, but the jacket in the above screen shot looks like cloth. It sounds like a weird thing, but the way the jacket looks when slowed down, actually to me kinda looks like its built a little different (very slightly) or its laying a weird way that it almost looks wider at the waist. All in all, I think its a cloth jacket.

Raider S
11-19-2010, 08:37 PM
I believe the Ford story and feel there is a cloth jacket in there somewhere. Of course my best evidence is the related phone call, but it seems valid.

Now what happened to that cloth jacket, who made it, and how many Hovitos does it take to screw in a lightbulb? The answer to the bulb question is zero. Hovitos don't need no stinkin' lightbulbs.

Ravenswood
11-19-2010, 08:43 PM
The reason behind using the cloth jacket for the running scene was that the crew needed something that dust would stick to, so that it could fly off of Indy in plumes as he was running from the Hovitos. Leather wasn't doing the trick. Here's the best screen-shot (which I found here on this site) that I can come up with which illustrates this caking of the dust on the jacket.


Bear in mind that shot has been downsized. In watching the sequence in a decent resolution, to me it clearly looks like leather. What's more, it looks like a leather jacket with dust streaming down the back because it ISN'T sticking that well. You can see it happening.

The thing is, like so many other things, unfortunately we need to ask where your understanding of the above came from. It's not a fact. IIRC the Ford conversation indicated the shots actually involving water. This would have been shot at least an hour earlier.


Sorry about that. My wording certainly seemed like I was postulating theory as fact. I should be more careful.
The quote that set me off on this line of thinking indeed came from another forum:

"Western made a cloth jacket...The mock-up was worn briefly in the sequence where he runs down the hill as it held the fullers earth in a way that allowed it to billow from the jacket. it was not ever intended to be more than a working proof of concept for the bi-swing and vents. Despite rumors, he told me the jacket he takes a swim in was leather."

Even when I watched the movie as a kid, I couldn't help but notice how floppy the jacket seemed. Putting two and two together, it makes sense to me that the "running jacket" MIGHT be made of cloth. But as usual, without hardcore facts, I could only guess.

RCSignals
11-19-2010, 08:46 PM
Boy, did anyone else catch the contradictions that have since been made with this statement (and particularly from the original writer of it) ?

I guess it is stuff for another thread

"Western made a cloth jacket...The mock-up was worn briefly in the sequence where he runs down the hill as it held the fullers earth in a way that allowed it to billow from the jacket. it was not ever intended to be more than a working proof of concept for the bi-swing and vents. Despite rumors, he told me the jacket he takes a swim in was leather.

Gunslinger
11-20-2010, 12:13 AM
By the other studies we've done here, it seems almost 100% that the Hawaii Jacket = the Imams. If you watch the Imams scene, you will see just how incredibly thin that leather is, especially when Sallah claps him on the shoulders. It does drape like "material" when in motion.

neutronbomb
01-10-2011, 11:24 PM
What do you guys think?

My thoughts are that:
1. running from Hovitos is a leather jacket.
2. The jackets below are possibly the same one.

Looking primarily at the jackets right side collar stand area. The large thick fold that runs from the lining up through the collar stand and the collar stand kink.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/HF_bantu12.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1118-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/stunts2587-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1467-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/HF_bantu9.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1117.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/bantu_collarstand2-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1116.jpg

bigrex
01-11-2011, 08:29 AM
Personally, I think a cloth jacket would allow air to pass through it when one runs quickly and might allow more dust to fly off it when compared to a leather jacket in part for that reason. You could also rub more dust into the fibers as well. Try hanging up and beating a leather sheet with dust on it and see how many clouds you get, then try beating a thick saturated cloth, the cloth jacket would give you the "beating the dirty carpet" dust cloud effect.

Kt Templar
01-11-2011, 12:53 PM
The one where he is running down the hill has the puffy look that cloth jackets sometimes have. I am a subscriber to the theory that they put a 'dust dispenser' on the back to help.

I don't think that the other pics are any clear enough to use as match up.

neutronbomb
01-16-2011, 01:53 AM
Yeah, I'm finding it tough to get clear screengrabs. I know Mac and Gunslinger tend to be able to find clearer ones. Don't know if this particular scene will have them though. like KT, I also think they used a duster on the back of the jacket The Device: Billowing Dust Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=530.0)

I'm seeing the jacket worn throughout the entire hovitos scene as a leather jacket. Terribly blurry, but this one shows what looks like the slit inside pocket and this one and others show what look like the lining of the leather jackets also.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1449-1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Chase/DVDSnap1446-1.jpg

Mac
01-17-2011, 03:21 PM
NB, I reviewed that scene and my screen grabs are about the same as those you posted. I did observe, as posted above, what could be an inside pocket, but the quality is far too low to be definitive and it could be just a fold of material.

I don't think the screen grabs help us much here in determining whether the jacket in that scene is cloth or leather, but I would lean toward leather.

It may be that the 'dust device' hanging from the back of the jacket, as shown in the Billowing Dust Jacket thread, is artificial spider web that's been saturated with artificial dust. When Ford is sitting on the ground immediately after exiting the temple and being chased by the boulder, we get a good look at the spider web hanging from the jacket and it looks remarkably like the (polyester?) stuff I spread over my hedges at Halloween. It would make sense from a continuity standpoint that Ford would be trailing dusty spider web in the next scene and with enough material matted together it would probably hold and release dust in the manner we see on screen.

- Mac

Gunslinger
01-17-2011, 08:15 PM
I think it's leather, MAYBE with a little spider web. If you open this to 100% you'll see it just looks like they dumped a ton of dust on the back of a regular leather jacket.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m48s127.png (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-09-14-09h54m48s127.png)

Neutronbomb, the collar of the jacket in the top photo of your last post presents very much like the Imams / Hawaii jacket to me. Hmmm. Something about the flap contour and the way the flap is contouring with that shadow.

djd
01-17-2011, 08:41 PM
It looks like leather to me. The screen grabs have me convinced

The Character
01-18-2011, 10:34 PM
Absolutely...leather with a dust dispenser. Run the sequence from Indy running out of the clearing at half speed ... Easy on most DVDs .... You wont get a good screen grab but you will see the cloth patch draped over his shoulers

TC

neutronbomb
01-20-2011, 05:27 PM
Cannot get a clear image on this one, but the texture of the arms do look similar to me. Also in the fifth photo, it looks like there's something that I have the arrow pointing to.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/dockjacket1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/dockjacket_texture1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/terryleonard_texture1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase_texture1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase_dusty1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase_dusty2.jpg

RCSignals
01-20-2011, 07:18 PM
Cannot get a clear image on this one, but the texture of the arms do look similar to me. Also in the fourth photo, it looks like there's something that I have the arrow pointing to.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/dockjacket1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase1.jpg



Interesting. Check the yoke size in these two photos.

Yes the second photo the jacket is in motion and that should be taken into consideration. But perhaps another spot the Bantu Wind jacket was used?

Gunslinger
01-20-2011, 08:13 PM
Yes, VERY interesting.

It looks to me like that cobweb stuff, which would make sense continuity wise, and be very handy to "carry" the dust.

The yoke definitely looks of Bantu Wind proportions - hard to tell whether it's illusion or not given how close the shoulder / arm is to the lens, so it could be due to lens distortion.

crismans
01-20-2011, 08:51 PM
That is interesting. And, if this was the case, would be a nice bit of "closure" as the jacket would have been used (or at least photographed) at the beginning of production and used at the end.

neutronbomb
01-20-2011, 11:21 PM
The airplane jacket seems to have a high yoke and full bi-swing slit.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Airplane%20Jacket/airplanejacket_standing1.jpg

RCSignals
01-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Was the shot continuous? Could the running jacket have been different?

neutronbomb
01-21-2011, 12:09 AM
Oh sorry RCSignals. Yeah I should of guessed that would be a question.

No, not continuous at all. The running jacket totally could have been different. There are many, many cuts throughout the entire Running from the Hovitos scene, and then also, to the river bank, to the vine swing, to the river swim, to the plane. Totally possible to have different jackets. In fact, the inside of the plane shares a couple of features of the Main Hero Jacket from what I can see.

Indiana Bugs
01-21-2011, 01:50 AM
Right. Technically, the only shots that might 'require' a cloth jacket are those that show Indy in the water - the vine swing, and the swim.

Gunslinger
01-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Yeah, I know w've discussed this here before - somewhere - but I really think there's a decent chance that the inside of the plane jacket is the Main Hero.

neutronbomb
02-02-2011, 11:38 PM
NB, I reviewed that scene and my screen grabs are about the same as those you posted. I did observe, as posted above, what could be an inside pocket, but the quality is far too low to be definitive and it could be just a fold of material.

I don't think the screen grabs help us much here in determining whether the jacket in that scene is cloth or leather, but I would lean toward leather.

It may be that the 'dust device' hanging from the back of the jacket, as shown in the Billowing Dust Jacket thread, is artificial spider web that's been saturated with artificial dust. When Ford is sitting on the ground immediately after exiting the temple and being chased by the boulder, we get a good look at the spider web hanging from the jacket and it looks remarkably like the (polyester?) stuff I spread over my hedges at Halloween. It would make sense from a continuity standpoint that Ford would be trailing dusty spider web in the next scene and with enough material matted together it would probably hold and release dust in the manner we see on screen.

- Mac


This one shows the inside pocket better:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Hovitos%20Chase%20Jacket/hovitoschase_insidepocket.jpg

Here's some of the statements that the running from Hovitos jacket was cloth with some type of paisley flower pattern.


Patterson
Post subject: Re: Somebody convince me...Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:56 pm

Writer of Things

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 4964
Location: EAT ME.....
Texan Scott wrote:
At the very least, it would appear that we have a working copy, something tangible, a physical form that could be used to copy, eyeball, or otherwise make patterns from?

Patterson wrote:
Well, yes - that's what we've been saying. Cooper spent a couple days with it making a pattern when he got to the UK. Peter used it to make numbers 1, 12, 13 and 14.

Now, calling it a jacquard? Jacquard is a material with a pattern woven into it. Think heavy drapes? Think the play clothes in "The Sound of Music.". How best to make a proof of concept mock-up that can be reasonably assured not to be used in the shooting of the movie? Make it from something completely visually unsuitable, ie jacquard.

I wonder if any of you screen shot jockeys can pick up any floral patterns woven into that jacket in the chase scene where he's running down the hill.


Patterson
Post subject: Re: Somebody convince me...Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:53 pm

Writer of Things

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 4964
Location: EAT ME.....
Western made a cloth jacket. They didn't even refer to it as a jacket - I believe they referred to it as a "jacquard mock-up" though don't quote me. I'm a couple thousand miles from the blue book.

The mock-up was worn briefly in the sequence where he runs down the hill as it held the fullers earth in a way that allowed it to billow from the jacket. it was not ever intended to be more than a working proof of concept for the bi-swing and vents. Despite rumors, he told me the jacket he takes a swim in was leather.


Patterson
Post subject: Re: Somebody convince me...Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:40 pm

Writer of Things

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 4964
Location: EAT ME.....
binkmeisterRick wrote:
The hills are alive... with the sound of Hovitos...

Lol! I emailed Ian and he responded that, yes, that's what they meant by a "jacquard mock-up." Clever way to do it. There is a paisley pattern woven into the fabric.

Credit on this goes to Kelly. I mentioned "jacquard" and she explained it to me.

neutronbomb
02-02-2011, 11:42 PM
I wonder if this is a stuntman. Could be the angle, but I just don't recognize this guy as HF:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Hovitos%20Chase%20Jacket/hovitoschase_whoisthis1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Hovitos%20Chase%20Jacket/hovitoschase_whoisthis2.jpg

Ravenswood
02-27-2011, 02:05 AM
I went ahead and created a video to illustrate the way the jacket behaves in the particular scene that has me moving toward the cloth argument. Just the way the jacket sways, ripples and drapes has me all but convinced. I don't think even the thinnest lambskin can get that effect, but I have yet to conduct experiments in that regard ;)

Raiders Jacket, the Cloth Mock-Up?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY-0hQ2d7Kw#)

RCSignals
02-27-2011, 02:19 AM
Hard to say. It could go either way I think, but I still don't see any paisley ;D

Gunslinger
02-27-2011, 04:36 AM
It's very thin leather. You can see the way it is draping in this scene, and the way it reacts in the Imams scene when Sallah claps him on the shoulders. It's THIN. The leather used on my and HW's jackets behaves exactly the same. I would bet money there was no cloth jacket.

Ravenswood
02-27-2011, 04:53 AM
HF "I couldn't wear another layer, I'm absolutely stifling!"
COSTUMER "Ohhh, comon sir...It's only a wafer-thin jacket!"
:D

Gunslinger
02-27-2011, 07:35 AM
"Fck off, I'm full..." :D

neutronbomb
04-12-2012, 01:49 AM
It's The Prototype Jacket. Same strap attachment, pleat set up, unique fold in right side bottom of back panel. Now if I could only find that damn paisley pattern.

click and then click again for 100%.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_runningfromhovitos_compare1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=runningfromhovitos_compare1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/runningfromhovitos_compare1.jpg

Gunslinger
04-12-2012, 05:28 AM
Am I seeing things or is that dirty great big crease across the back at 45 degress also got the same S-shaped wavy crinkle/break in it?

RCSignals
04-12-2012, 06:26 AM
Good work neutron you are correct

PLATON
04-12-2012, 07:36 AM
Hey congrats
it seems logical that they had the worst constructed (if I can say that) jacket for the dirty jobs and stunts.

I never believed there was a cloth mock up.
No need for that, the bantu (prototype) wind jacket with a kg of flour could have done it great.


The amount of bullshit coming "from the other channel" is just so extreme I cannot bear it (glad I was banned)

K-Wad
04-12-2012, 07:03 PM
I believe the "cloth" draped across his shoulders is supposed to be the "spiderwebs" he was covered in when Indy rolled out of the temple to meet Bellog and the Hovitos.

Raskolnikov
04-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Once again an incredible job :o

Ravenswood
04-12-2012, 09:57 PM
EXCELLENT WORK, fellas!! I was not entirely convinced, but ya made a believer out of me! It's refreshing to see that even the hottest debates can be carried through to a reasonable conclusion. :toast:

we can't always be cut from the same cloth ;) ;D

:goodjob:

neutronbomb
04-13-2012, 01:14 AM
Awesome. I'm glad you guys like it. Also need to thank one of our members who helped by providing resources. Which I'll also use on some other stuff. He deserves a ton of credit. To Mr. Anonymous :drink:

Gunslinger, it took me way too long to find the 'S' :doh::banghead: LOL. But, yeah, it looks like a match to me also.

bigrex
04-13-2012, 04:28 AM
He has a little apron that goes halfway down his back with a little pocket for nestling a wad of chalk dust. Can't you see it? :hairguy: Glad we solved that little mystery :doh:

indydude18
04-13-2012, 04:49 PM
Nice! That sure is the Prototype jacket. But hmm....still can't see that "S". :banghead:

Returningson
04-14-2012, 01:24 AM
THis indeed in some amazing detective work...nice job to everyone involved!

Weston
04-14-2012, 01:46 AM
I believe the "cloth" draped across his shoulders is supposed to be the "spiderwebs" he was covered in when Indy rolled out of the temple to meet Bellog and the Hovitos.


That's what I've always thought! He emerged from the temple covered in cobwebs and dust, so naturally they show him running from the Hovito's covered in cobwebs and dust, by applying some sort of gauzy material and talcum or some other powder billowing off. It seems obvious.

Weston

PLATON
04-14-2012, 07:40 AM
I still don't understand why they need to lie about everything

Ravenswood
04-14-2012, 04:01 PM
I still don't understand why they need to lie about everything


Because it makes them feel good. However, the research seen here and the product of such research speaks for itself.

neutronbomb
04-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Nice! That sure is the Prototype jacket. But hmm....still can't see that "S". :banghead:


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_hovitoschase_compare1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=hovitoschase_compare1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase_compare1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_hovitoschase_S.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=hovitoschase_S.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/hovitoschase_S.jpg

indydude18
04-14-2012, 06:09 PM
Oooooh I see it now NB! :doh:

Wow, it was right in front of me and I still didn't see it.....now where did I leave my ritalin bottle.... :crazy:

Gunslinger
04-14-2012, 09:22 PM
Actually.... That wasn't the S I was talking about. :D

I just mean that 45 degree shadowy crease in the main back panel, and how it has a kink in it up towards the centre of the yoke. The kink was the S.