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View Full Version : There is NO zipper gap........in The Imam and Main Hero Jackets



neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 11:14 PM
I see in some screencaps that are of the same jacket it appears there is a zipper gap and sometimes there appears to be NO zipper gap. I put forth that this different has to do with some play in where the zipper top is attached and the Gap is apparent when the collar and assembly is standing up and vertical and the Gap is minimized when the collar is laying down or there is upward pressure on the zipper that moves the end/top of the zipper upwards.

Hawaii scene - Zipper Gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1916-1.jpg

Imam Scene - Zipper Gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1984-1.jpg


Here's The Main Hero Jacket:

NO zipper gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1432-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1433.jpg

Presto: Zipper gap:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/th_DVDSnap1288.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1288.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/DVDSnap1288.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/DVDSnap1288-1.jpg


Compared to the Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1984-1.jpg



Here's some more of the The Main Hero Jacket (all the rest below are of The Main Hero Jacket):

Immediately after first pit swing/jump:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1986-1.jpg

Immediately after entrance in the Chamber and gazing upon the Idol':
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1991-1.jpg

what may appear as a bend or fold in the middle of the collar stand is the bottom edge of the collar stand itself as seen in the 'Idol Grab' screencap directly below (The Main Hero Jacket). In other cases there is a bend or fold in the collar stand as can be seen in the last screencap of the WOS series of screencaps also shown below(The Main Hero Jacket):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1992-1.jpg

Note: I believe it is clear that the three screencaps pictured above of the 'Immediately after first pit swing/jump', 'Immediately after entrance in the Chamber and gazing upon the Idol', and the 'Idol Grab' have absolutely identical collar stands on HF's right side. As in not more than one jackets that looks close, but THE same jacket.

Here's a frame by frame series of The Main Hero Jacket as seen in the WOS (The Main Hero Jacket) that shows I believe the construction of the collarstand and how the zipper moves up and down in relationship to the bottom edge of the collar stand:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/th_DVDSnap1993.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1993.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1993.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/th_DVDSnap1994.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1994.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1994.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/th_DVDSnap1995.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1995.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1995.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/th_DVDSnap1996.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1996.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1996.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/th_DVDSnap1997.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1997.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1997.jpg

It looks like to me it may be that the material between the zipper top/edge and the bottom of the collar stand at times crumples inwards/towards itself moving the zipper top/edge closer to the bottom edge of the collar stand and at other times uncrumples/extends itself moving the zipper top/edge away from the bottom edge of the collar stand.

Gunslinger
09-10-2010, 02:11 AM
Wow, what kind of weird-arse construction did they use there? :D

Well spotted Bryan! You're right!

I can't for the life of me find the first blurry shot you list above, but here are others all around it.

PRESENTING THE AMAZING MORPHING ZIPPER GAP!

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Hawaii-Sandbag-Zipper-Comp.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Hawaii-Sandbag-Zipper-Comp.jpg)
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-Sandbag-Zipper-Comp.jpg

These are mostly from the SAME shot - the camera doesn't stop rolling. FYI The shots on the left are how I've seen the Imams, and the ones on the right how I have seen the Hawaii. (IE in front of the waterfall.) But here it shows those 2 presentations can simultaneously co-exist. Wow. Crazy.

So if that's the case, which is seems like it is, this takes a big part of my mis-match issue away. So it seems far more possible that the Hawaii = Imams. The noted striations we found make it possible, at least in terms of the biplane in-flight shots. I'd love to be able to get some other matches. See if the shots I just sent you help. Maybe we'll have to switch thread again... Again, great call! :)

neutronbomb
09-10-2010, 02:49 AM
I still want to be skeptical on the Imam=Hawaii so yeah, definitely need to work on more matches. Really all we've done is show in this thread that all the jackets we see in the movie have a form of or the potential for a zipper gap and show the likely hood of the scenes The Main Hero appears in.

I haven't really wanted to accept it hook, line and sinker, because really. Only 3 jackets one of which was used mostly as a stunt jacket. Seems weird with the overall general assumption for years that 14 jackets were available and several were used throughout filming.

Also, Hollywood's information is that there were 9 total jackets available for production.

Gunslinger
09-10-2010, 03:36 AM
Importantly we've also now established the zipper gap isn't a very good way of being able to differentiate one jacket from another!

Hollwood's info also confirms Nadoolman's estimate that there had to be 10 of them. I'll accept 9 as close enough.

PLATON
09-10-2010, 07:45 AM
Guys,
I am no sure I understand what you are saying.

The Main Hero has no gap and is different than any other jacket. (I can distinguish the hero jacket from 1000 yards)

The Imam jacket has a huge gap between top zipper stop and collar stand
The Hawaii jacket has almost no gap (or small gap).

So Imam should not be the same as the Hawaii.

Why are you saying that "So it seems far more possible that the Hawaii = Imams." ?????
Don't understand.

At this point I want to point out another diffrenence. It could be that the Main Hero is one size larger than the other jackets. That could explain why the longer collar and why it seems like longer and baggier. I don't think the Imam jacket has a long collar. Seems normal to me.

Tyderium
09-10-2010, 08:13 AM
Agreed Gun and Bomb, the zipper issue is inconclusive. If anything, I feel the left side of the jacket is more telling with where the zipper terminates under the collar stand - the bloody lip image is a good case in point for this. This side seems more straightforward than the right side where the leather appears prone to folding in on itself and creating the illusion of the zip riding up or down. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be as clear shots of this in the Imam scenes (the left side and where the zipper terminates under the collar stand).

And there does seem to be some ribby skin used on the Imam jacket. Great catch! ???
In the brighter lighting of the plane scene it really jumps out on that jacket, which could also be the Imam's.

With the Imam vs Hawaii:
Now there does actually appear to be ribby marks showing up on the Imam's is really interesting.
It would seem logical those striations would appear elsewhere on the jacket.
The jacket Tony studied (what we now know as the Hawaii) had no ribby marks.
Another angle to consider in the debate over whether the two are separate jackets or not.

Gunslinger
09-10-2010, 08:31 AM
Guys,
I am no sure I understand what you are saying.

The Main Hero has no gap and is different than any other jacket. (I can distinguish the hero jacket from 1000 yards)

The Imam jacket has a huge gap between top zipper stop and collar stand
The Hawaii jacket has almost no gap (or small gap).

So Imam should not be the same as the Hawaii.

Why are you saying that "So it seems far more possible that the Hawaii = Imams." ?????
Don't understand.

At this point I want to point out another diffrenence. It could be that the Main Hero is one size larger than the other jackets. That could explain why the longer collar and why it seems like longer and baggier. I don't think the Imam jacket has a long collar. Seems normal to me.




That's what I HAD thought as well - that the way to clearly identify the difference between Imams vs. Hawaii was the zipper gap and the presentation of the front of the collar stand leather. But this simply isn't the case. This would go for any of the Raiders jackets. Luckily, yes, we can clearly identify the Main Jacket. But this issue means we need to find other markers for the Imams and the Hawaii and then compare to see if they match.

Gunslinger
09-10-2010, 08:40 AM
With the Imam vs Hawaii:
Now there does actually appear to be ribby marks showing up on the Imam's is really interesting.
It would seem logical those striations would appear elsewhere on the jacket.
The jacket Tony studied (what we now know as the Hawaii) had no ribby marks.
Another angle to consider in the debate over whether the two are separate jackets or not.


To me, the plane jacket does show something going on on the RH upper arm, though vertically, unlike the horizontal arm ones on the Main jacket.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-09-18h39m23s110.jpg

neutronbomb
09-10-2010, 01:45 PM
The Main Hero has no gap and is different than any other jacket. (I can distinguish the hero jacket from 1000 yards)


Look closely at the Idol Grab screencap above. Stand back 1000 yards. It is The Main Hero Jacket correct? Now move in very close and look at the collar stand on HF's right side. You can see the line of the collar stand's bottom edge. Find the edge and follow it forward towards the front edge of the jacket. Look closely. It's not a bend there, but the bottom edge of the collar stand. Now look way, way, way, way far below that and you will finally come across the top of the zipper. Zipper Gap.

Depending on various factors the zipper gap will be seen to vary. But Platon, It's pretty clear above in screencaps that there IS a zipper gap we're looking at with The Main Hero Jacket. The problem is that sometimes it shows itself and other times it doesn't.

PLATON
09-10-2010, 03:06 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Collar%20Stand/DVDSnap1992-1.jpg

If you are talking about this photo, yes, there is a gap, but very small.
Nothing like the huge gap in the Imam jacket.

Of course, we didn't need that to distinguish between Main hero and Imam's
The Imam's collar sits entirely differently and the whole jacket looks different (than the main hero) on him.

neutronbomb
09-10-2010, 05:25 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not fully understanding your idea Platon. I don't know if we're discussing the same things or not. You say small zipper gap on the Main Hero. Before that you said No zipper gap.

Platon, The Main Hero Jacket is the Idol Grab jacket from the Temple, The WOS jacket, The Raven Bar jacket, The Flying Wing jacket, and the first half of the truck cab fight jacket.

Notice the WOS jacket pictures above. Notice the zipper gap appears more than small. Look at ALL the photos of the main jacket above. Maybe there's no need to quibble over our individual thoughts on what qualifies as small vs. large. But, there are definitely instances where I think The Main Hero Jacket presents with a zipper gap comparable to what we see on the Iman's. Look at the 'entering the chamber and looking at the idol' screencap above for an example of where we can see the zipper gap isn't small or insignificant.

The real point was to show the Hawaii has this and thus can't be ruled out as the Imam's jacket due to the zipper gap.

Of course their are a ton of ways to tell The Main Hero. The point was shown for context for the Iman/Hawaii discussion.

RCSignals
09-10-2010, 05:49 PM
The Hawaii has a zipper gap?
The jacket Tony had to copy had the zipper, the metal parts, extending practically to the collar stand bottom seam.

Tyderium
09-11-2010, 06:54 AM
This is just the thing and a good qualifying point by RC. The jacket Tony copied had no gap, which we know is the Hawaii.

I think the original basis of the zipper gap discussion was an attempt to differentiate whether the Hawaii and Imam jackets were the same. Screen cap evidence for the zip alone seems inconclusive and too much room for interpretation, especially with the Imam scenes.

However, the good work by Gun in revealing some ribby marks on the Imam jacket, that also definitely appear on the plane jacket, is another avenue for arguing the case for the Hawaii and Imam being separate jackets. Tony said the Hawaii had no ribbyness.

Gunslinger
09-11-2010, 08:40 AM
It IS a conundrum.

This behaviour we're seeing looks like the zipper DOES pretty much go to the collar stand, but the leather / stitching / zipper backing material itself all stretches / accordians with the leather.

But would Tony have messed around trying to stretch / separate the zipper from the collar stand?

The ribbiness, however, is another thing. It is possible that the Hawaii Biplane jacket = Imams, and the general Hawaii jacket is another that looks identical. At the same time, maybe Tony didn't consider the "severity" of striations / ribbiness on the jacket that he saw to be that full on. There are non-striated hides on my Nowak (from the Mk1 leather) that to me I would call striation-like lines, but I guess Tony wouldn't have. See below.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100540.jpg

PLATON
09-11-2010, 10:14 AM
neutronbomb wrote

Unfortunately, I'm not fully understanding your idea Platon. I don't know if we're discussing the same things or not. You say small zipper gap on the Main Hero. Before that you said No zipper gap.

Platon, The Main Hero Jacket is the Idol Grab jacket from the Temple, The WOS jacket, The Raven Bar jacket, The Flying Wing jacket, and the first half of the truck cab fight jacket.

Notice the WOS jacket pictures above. Notice the zipper gap appears more than small. Look at ALL the photos of the main jacket above. Maybe there's no need to quibble over our individual thoughts on what qualifies as small vs. large. But, there are definitely instances where I think The Main Hero Jacket presents with a zipper gap comparable to what we see on the Iman's. Look at the 'entering the chamber and looking at the idol' screencap above for an example of where we can see the zipper gap isn't small or insignificant.

The real point was to show the Hawaii has this and thus can't be ruled out as the Imam's jacket due to the zipper gap.

Of course their are a ton of ways to tell The Main Hero. The point was shown for context for the Iman/Hawaii discussion.


You 're right. I haven't been very accurate in my comment. I said "no gap" meaning that gap is so small that compared to Imam huge gap, it's like there almost no gap. In some scenes it appears as if there's no gap. Anyway, I looked at the photos you said and still think that Imam's gap is far greater than hero gap. Regardless of what gap the hero has, I think we introduced the gap to compare Imam and Hawaii to establish if they are the same. One other way tocompare is look at the pockets/pocket flaps. The Hawaii also, has vey long side straps.

I think that the main hero appears in the Wing scene, but there's also another jacket there. The difference is in the pockets and when you will see the photos I am going to post, I think you will agree.

Tyderium
09-11-2010, 02:58 PM
But would Tony have messed around trying to stretch / separate the zipper from the collar stand?



That thought crossed my mind too but seeing as he went to the sort of detail of counting the teeth on the zipper I would expect he would also faithfully replicate a gap if it was there.




The ribbiness, however, is another thing. It is possible that the Hawaii Biplane jacket = Imams, and the general Hawaii jacket is another that looks identical. At the same time, maybe Tony didn't consider the "severity" of striations / ribbiness on the jacket that he saw to be that full on. There are non-striated hides on my Nowak (from the Mk1 leather) that to me I would call striation-like lines, but I guess Tony wouldn't have. See below.



Yep, definitely open to interpretation as to the severity. I guess we'll never know that one :)

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
09-25-2010, 07:09 PM
I think it's safe to assume the jacket order to LC from B&N was to come from the same batch of leather, why not? From 9 or 10 jackets just a few were agreed upon--- and one of them could have had much less apparent ribby-ness. It was likely known that the grain rarely shows up once filmed and filtered, so it wasn't a factor when two INCREDIBLY similar jackets were chosen. As most of you know, hides with striations are accompanied by many others without, and with other features accentuated.

The zip gaps have proven a far less a solid indicator in the Hawaii vs. Imam's debate--- especially compared to the RH collar and the effect of the backwards C zipper. Luckily it is the polar opposite of the Main Hero where the RH collar is pulled down as opposed to stiff and propped up. The first shot at 3:23 or whatever shows a less upright RH collar, but it is the same jacket by all other indicators, zip-gap not included.

I agree that the Imam's was used in the spiders/stay out of the light/MG pit jump/lock/dead Satipo/boulder run/end of Truck Chase/Hawaii.



H

RCSignals
09-25-2010, 11:10 PM
It is possible different jackets had slightly different length zippers. The jacket Tony had to duplicate had a zipper that was too long for the jacket, yet they sewed it in as it was. Tony knew how to duplicate that, but would a zipper that is too long for the jacket space for it end up with a gap? I'd think it wouldn't have room for a gap after getting 'crammed' in the smaller space.

neutronbomb
10-19-2010, 03:20 AM
There is No zipper gap in The Imam Jacket. It is an optical illusion created by a bend in the 1 1/8" wide collar stand.

Gunslinger
10-19-2010, 03:50 AM
Lay it on me man. The timing to thrash this out is perfect.

neutronbomb
10-19-2010, 03:56 AM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_HF_deadsatipo1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=HF_deadsatipo1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/HF_deadsatipo1-1.jpg