View Full Version : ROTLA Prototype Jacket (1 of 4 jackets used in Raiders. Also Main Hero jacket in TOD)

09-06-2010, 06:19 PM
« Last Edit: August 4, 2011 by neutronbomb »

It's time to finalize my opinion of where I think The Prototype Jacket is used in the film. I've kept the previous post intact further below starting at "« Edited: October 14, 2010..... »" and that's where the bulk of the information and intro concerning this jacket is located.

This update is basically adding "The Running From Hovitos" Hawaii scene and the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt" to the time stamps for where The Prototype Jacket Appears and confirming that The Prototype Jacket was worn by Martin Grace for the "Falling Statue Stunt".

In order of appearance in the movie (In order filmed is Bantu Wind, Temple, WOS, Tunisia, Hawaii):

1.. Temple Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt: 8:38 - 8:39 (Grace)
2. Hawaii Temple Exit Dive: 9:38 - 9:41 (Armstrong)
3. Hovitos Chase/Swim the River: 10:55 - 12:10 (Armstrong/Ford)
4. Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt: 1:14:17 - 1:14:26 (Grace)
5. Horseback: 1:22:28 - 1:23:02, 1:23:10 - 1:23:25, 1:23:26 - 1:23:33 (Leonard)
6. Through the Windshield: 1:27:15 - 1:27:16 (Leonard)
7. Truck Hood/Grill: 1:27:17 - 1:27:19, 1:27:30 - 1:27:31, 1:27:40 - 1:27:42 (Leonard)
8. Truck Drag: 1:27:43 - 1:28:05, 1:28:07 - 1:28:17 (Leonard)
9. Omar's Garage: 1:29:17 - 1:29:26 (Leonard)
10. Bantu Wind Dockside: 1:29:51 - 1:31:36 (Ford)

« Edited: October 14, 2010 by neutronbomb »

Prequel: Fortune and Glory's Indiana Jones Jacket Write-Ups (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=492.0)

First, check out Crisman's thread for a preview: The Bantu Wind "still" jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=479.0)

I maintain there were three jackets used in the Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark Film. I'll be attempting to show that this is so primarily in three different threads in Fortune And Glory's jacket section: The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0), The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0), The Prototype Jacket. What I'll be doing is listing the scenes that feature each jacket, in their respective thread, and then showing feature(s) that identify each jacket uniquely and showing those feature(s) and how they appear in the scenes they are featured in.

This Prototype Jacket thread is the third one of the three listed above for me to attempt to do this. The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0) is the first that describes a bit more background of this project in the first post. Please don't hesitate to offer feedback. I say The Prototype IS..... THE JACKET..... used in the following scenes with the time stamps of the scenes the jacket is used in:

1. Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt (Possibly The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0)):
1:14:17 - 1:14:26 (Grace)
2. Horseback: 1:22:28 - 1:23:02, 1:23:10 - 1:23:25, 1:23:26 - 1:23:33 (Leonard)
2. Through the Windshield: 1:27:15 - 1:27:16 (Leonard)
4. Truck Hood/Grill: 1:27:17 - 1:27:19, 1:27:30 - 1:27:31, 1:27:40 - 1:27:42 (Leonard)
5. Truck Drag: 1:27:43 - 1:28:05, 1:28:07 - 1:28:17 (Leonard)
6. Omar's Garage: 1:29:17 - 1:29:26 (Leonard)
7. Bantu Wind Dockside: 1:29:51 - 1:31:36 (Harrison Ford)

I maintain that in each film scene or sequence The Prototype Jacket is in, it is the only jacket featured in that scene. Same for the other two jackets. The exception is a few stunts where the stunt appears within a scene's framework. The jacket used primarily for these stunts is The Prototype Jacket, which is the subject of this thread; I've noted the time stamps of those stunt sequences in the above list along with the time stamp for when Harrison Ford wears the jacket in the Bantu Wind Dockside film scene.

Though there isn't much to go on visually, I currently lean towards The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0) for the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt: 8:38 - 8:39" and The Prototype Jacket for the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt: 1:14:17 - 1:14:26". However, with the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt", it looks like The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0) on film, but The Prototype Jacket in the promo picture and with the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt", it doesn't appear there's a full bi-swing and it looks like it has a lower yoke seam which suggests The Prototype Jacket, but possibly The Prototype Jacket was in Tunisia during filming of the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt"?

I feel it is fortunate that there are a few features of The Prototype Jacket that are dominant, very easily seen, and that appear and show themselves throughout every scene where The Prototype Jacket is featured, even in the heavy action sequences. The other two jackets used in the Raiders of the Lost Ark Film do NOT share these features........ ever, at anytime. When they display themselves within each scene they are unique identifying features to The Prototype Jacket specifically, we can identify them as such, and it opens up the rest of the features of The Prototype Jacket in that scene for use as identifying features also.

So the first identifying feature is the lined up yoke and arm seams. It presents itself of course with the yoke and arm seams lined up, versus offset as with The Imam Jacket and The Main Hero Jacket, along with a larger yoke panel and lower yoke seam and with a greater distance between the top and bottom edges at the sides; this is in relation to The Main Hero Jacket and The Imam jacket. The Imam Jacket and The Main Hero Jacket NEVER present this way.

For instance, here is a look at the large yoke and lower yoke seam, relative to The Main Hero Jacket and The Imam Jacket, as worn by Harrison Ford in a photo of him sitting dockside at La Rochelle, France where the Bantu Wind scene was filmed and as worn by Terry Leonard in various behind the scene photos and on film:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_HF_sitting1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=HF_sitting1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_Leonard_hanging4.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=Leonard_hanging4.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_Leonard_hanging6.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=Leonard_hanging6.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_Leonard_truckdrag1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=Leonard_truckdrag1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/th_Leonard_window2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/?action=view&current=Leonard_window2.jpg)

09-12-2010, 01:40 PM
another Nadoolman interview from 2005... hope it's OK to post here.


09-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Thanks for posting that HWJJ. I'm interested in anything from Nadoolman that we can get.

10-15-2010, 04:07 AM
I've completed the first post above with some pics of The Prototype Jacket's defining trait of a large yoke/lower yoke seam relative to the other two jackets.

Here's a list of identifying features for The Prototype Jacket that I'll be showing and matching up in various photos and screengrabs of where The Prototype Jacket is used and seen:

1. Large Yoke/Lower Yoke Seam with lined up arm and yoke seams
2. Collar Stand Crease
3. Large Zipper Gap
4. Unique Fold
5. Action Back
6. Strap Attachment
7. NO full bi-swing
8. Zipper Teeth Lay Open
9. Zipper Kink
10. Lining Crease
11. Top of Jacket's Left Side Storm Flap 'Lays Folded Open at 45 Degrees'
12. Jacket's Left Side 'Collar Hangs Down 90 Degrees'
13. Jacket's Left Side '45 Degree Chest Creases to Storm Flap'
14. Jacket's Right Side 'Collar Shape'
15. Jacket's Left and Right Side 'Patch Pocket'
16. Thick Storm Flap Ridge

Here's a few "templates" that show many of the features:

Also, here's an interview from Deborah Nadoolman Landis where she describes the very first film jacket, The Prototype Jacket, as the one she took to France for filming the Bantu Wind scene. Credited to username Agent5 as posted here: An Interview With Deborah Nadoolman (http://filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2185&sid=7a126a808e4640dfa271527e27d61639)

"DN: Alright. So, then in terms of the costume, what happened - I was out of time because I had spent all of this time with this prototype for Tom Selleck, and in fact I was so squeezed on the budget that I didn't know how I was going to make these ten or twelve leather jackets. And so I made them first at this incredibly discount leather shop called "Wilsons House of Suede and Leather", and everyone living in L.A. will recognize Wilsons House of Suede and Leather...

A5: We have them here in Chicago too.

DN: ...okay, so they advertise very heavily on television - it was a chain.

A5: Really commercial.

DN: Yes, really commercial...and I felt I'm being so squeezed by the production - how am I going to make these twelve identical jackets? Okay, I went to Wilsons House of Suede and Leather and made twelve jackets for Indiana Jones and I did the best I could. And I got these jackets back - they got right back to me right before I left for London and I just used one to test on and sure enough, you can't imagine how bad the quality was. It just peeled - the leather peeled off in my hands. In other words, the leather was so thin I couldn't even do anything to it. The kind of aging I would have had to do on it would have been entirely like, (dipping?) it or airbrushing it to be completely superficial. Cuz' they were just terrible, I mean awful...disgusting. And so I had to literally throw those jackets out. They stayed at Western Costume Co., I never used them...um...they were a complete waste. The money was like I had taken the jackets and thrown them out the window. And in fact, something happened - we were on...I don't really remember whether this happened at Elstree when we finally got to England which was only a couple of weeks later or if it was on the Paramount lot here, but I can't imagine that it was on the Paramount lot because really, we didn't shoot anything here.

By the time we got to Elstree, which was only a couple of weeks later I had this big disaster with these leather jackets. I got my offices at Bermans and Nathans and I had my crew and I...for some reason was walking across the E.M.I. Elstree lot and I saw Marcia and George Lucas and I was walking with Harrison. And Marcia used to wear a gigantic diamond ring....a GIGANTIC diamond ring!...and I looked at her and I didn't know her well and I said to her, "Marcia, how about giving me that ring so I can make some decent leather jackets?" (inaudible) "I really could use that ring, Marcia". And ...uh, I don't know how amused she was but it was really Harrison who got me the (budget?) Um ...and he and I became very close because he was always saying, you know, "Deborah really needs a little more money to get this done correctly". Um ...he was a great (inaudible) throughout the process because Steven was so traumatized by 1941 - by going over budget, by not having control - by letting the project get away from him and then by ultimately the critical and financial failure. He was absolutely determined not to spend one penny extra on ANYTHING on Raiders of the Lost Ark. And so here I had gone the Wilsons House of Suede and Leather route. It was not going to work. I needed one ...(inaudible) Indiana Jones wears one costume the entire movie with the exception of a couple of changes and here I needed this incredibly important garment multiplied by ten or twelve for all the dummies and stunt doubles and I needed it to be beautiful. I needed to be able to age it so it really looked like the most fabulous Flight Jacket - something that he lived in every day of his life - that he lived in, he ate in, he slept in, he made love in ...and I couldn't choose something that was the low quality of the Wilsons House of Suede and Leather ...I hope they don't sue me. So, I had this one moment with Marcia Lucas and I think through Harrison's help - I never really knew - I got a little extra money and then I started ...Kelly had made the sketches, the sketches had been approved and I started working at Bermans and Nathans.

Later on, I'll explain why I didn't stay on the movie. I just worked on the ... I mean I worked on pre-production and through the shooting at LaRochelle and then the whole company picked up and went to Tunisia and the reason I didn't go was that I had already been gone a couple of months and then my boyfriend, John Landis, proposed marriage. Soo...

A5: You needed to get home.

DN: He didn't like it, I mean...movie marriages don't last because husbands and wives or girlfriends and boyfriends are separated for separated for such long lengths of time and it was really hard for us. And so, this is just an aside, a personal aside...then Monte Berman, who has since died - but he was a wonderful old guy - and he actually...I designed my wedding dress and my wedding dress was made by the people who made by the people who made the costume for Indiana Jones as a gift for my wedding. So, I actually designed my wedding dress when I was designing Indiana Jones and then I flew home and I got married. So, anyways...getting back to Indiana Jones, I was very close with Monte Berman, owner of Bermans and Nathans and as a young woman, I started making this jacket. And I understood, because working with an actor is very...it's the closest collaboration after the director. The actors always come on after the director, naturally. And they get their lead as the cinematographer, the production designer and the costume designer do, from the vision of the director. And so Harrison had had long substantive talks with Steven - so had I, and as I said Steven and I were of one mind and close friends. And he uh...when you give an actor a costume whether it's a jacket or slacks or whatever they get to wear in the movie it really alters their walk depending on whether wearing cowboy boots or work boots. It really changes the shape of their body - their silhouette - using a hat or broad shoulders of the jacket and that’s what I really tried to do with Indiana Jones was... I had had experience already with the Blue Brothers using their silhouettes and I knew how important that was with the Blues Brothers because at a certain point you recognize the Blues Brothers by the shadows that they throw, right?

A5: Right. I've actually seen t-shirts with just their silhouettes on them.

DN: Exactly. Because, I mean...it's like Charlie Chaplin or Laurel and Hardy and I used to think of John and Danny as kind of the Laurel and Hardy of the Blues. So, with Harrison Ford I wanted to do the same thing. I wanted to put him in such a recognizable silhouette, you know, that I knew all these things going in. I had a real understanding of where I was going with this costume and how important (inaudible) the costume (inaudible). That we had no idea...but I understood that wearing one costume for the whole movie that this was going to be the signature of the movie. That one costume. So, with Harrison we did a little choreography and it was just myself and the tailor and Harrison in the fitting room and we did choreography. You know...how are you going to get to your holster? How are you going to use the whip? How are you going to work the whip? And he was stretching his arms out and doing a full rotation with his arms and, 'Is this enough? Is this enough room in the back? Is this going to work? Should I make it a two inch...do you want more of an action back?' And I had seen some of these action backs in motorcycle jackets. Not in flight jackets but in motorcycle jackets of the period and of course, before I designed this jacket I looked at a million different kinds of jackets. I mean, John's stepfather was in the Army Air Corp and has a flight jacket. He had a (fleece?) lined flight jacket. I looked at that. I looked at where they were aged. And so I knew I wanted (inaudible*) at the waist...why?...because I wanted him to be very slim through the waist and I want to be able to tighten up those (inaudible*) so that he would have broad shoulders and a slim waist and that he had all the room he needed but that we could close it up as well and give him a slim silhouette too.

(Skipped to next section of interview discussing the jacket. )

A5: Now, aside from designing the costumes I know you said that...did you go home after La Rochelle or did you then go home for a while, rest up and come back to the production?

DN: Oh no, I went home after LaRochelle and everything was ready after LaRochelle because...I should have told you this story before, I mean, I aged the jacket. The jacket was ready the day we were flying to get to LaRochelle. Literally, ONE jacket. One jacket was ready. That's how tight for time we were with Harrison Ford being cast so late. Can you imagine, Jason? ...one jacket...and it was new when it came in my suitcase with me on the plane.

A5: I know Bermans and Nathans had them subcontracted from "Leather Concessionaries" in England and I know that the people that did those said they only had, I think, two days or three days to complete those jackets.

DN: Right. And I don't know anything about the "Leather Concessions" because as far as I know Bermans gave it to, Bermans made it ...that's all I know, right? I had one jacket ready and it came in my suitcase with me down to LaRochelle and flew with me and then I sat with Melissa Matheson by the pool at LaRochelle and aged this thing myself - and it took me all evening. Then we had an early shooting call at this incredible facility ...at this U-Boat facility which was a real U-Boat facility ...and I wept.

(DN now goes into a longer, unrelated story about her father (an ex-Naval Captain) and how the trip to the German U-Boat base caused a stir in emotion. Since it was unrelated to the jacket, it was omitted. )

DN: I mean, I was just overwhelmed the first day of shooting. Completely overwhelmed. Anyway, enough of that, but I did spend most of the evening with Melissa sitting with Harrison and aging this jacket with a tremendous amount of TLC myself and I joked with my crew and said, "Okay, here's the first one. Only eleven more to do." And then I said, "You guys are going to have to match this perfectly.", and they did and I used a lot of mineral oil and shoe polish and Harrison Ford's Swiss Army Knife which he always carried. You know, Harrison is very, very fine carpenter so he carries all these tools with him and I used his file. I used stuff he had, I used stuff from the prop department, I used a wire brush and got it as good as I could possibly get it over one night. (Sat on it?)...then got it wet and he used it the next day. And I had already aged the hat so the hat was just perfect and that brings us up to LaRochelle.

A5: So, I know LaRochelle were the first scenes shot in the film. So, you really had limited time on the actual set then, right?

DN: Oh, absolutely. Because I had made everything else. I had made his ...all his other clothes were finished. The only thing we were waiting for were the other jackets, but the hats were finished when I left. His tweed jacket and his tweed suit was finished. I made his ties ...everything he wore with the exception of those boots that I bought from L.A., those Redwings and ...with the exception of those and his underwear I made every single thing the man had on his body. So, all of that was finished and I was just waiting for the jackets. It took long because, I guess, it wasn't done in house ...you know, the leather work was sent out so I had to wait for it.

* the words marked "inaudible" with an asterisk obviously refer to the side straps, but the terminology used is not clear. "

10-15-2010, 04:15 AM
Along with the "Templates" from my last post, here is a run down of various groupings to compare to:

Thick Storm Flap Ridge

Jacket's Left Side Collar Setup

Jacket's Right Side Collar Setup (collar stand crease, zipper gap, collar drop, lining crease)

Jacket's Left Side 'Vertical Back Fold'

Zipper Kink

Jacket's Right Side Setup

Also Left Side

Other Bantu Wind screengrabs

10-15-2010, 04:29 AM

That was my head exploding. AWESOME stuff man. I'm not worthy! I can't wait to put some time into looking at this properly over the weekend.

10-15-2010, 04:37 AM
Great work

You are a master of the black art ;)

10-15-2010, 01:44 PM
Thanks again NB for delving DEEP and laying it out. I am slowly carving into it like a steak dinner 8)...

Chewbacca Jones
10-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Interesting stuff. I do find one thing missing in the three threads, though. The lack of a full bi-swing back is part of the evidence for this jacket. But what does the full bi-swing look like, and when do we see it?

10-15-2010, 03:29 PM
Here you go Chewie. Here's a few pictures of The Main Hero and Imam jackets to show the bi-swing difference between them and The Prototype. Quick and dirty as I'm running out the door, but the slit on the other two jackets goes clear up to just underneath the strap attachments.


versus The Prototype

10-15-2010, 03:31 PM
Wow, NB!! ??? Thanks for doing all this work and presenting it to the community like this. I'm going to be a while absorbing all this...

10-15-2010, 08:28 PM
Awesome stuff, NB! Even though it's looked on as a black art in some quarters, there's a lot to be said for in depth work like this. This is terrific stuff that we can sink our teeth into rather than just going on hearsay.

And, even though it will take a while to absorb all of it, I think you've proven what we've long suspected on the Leonard stunt jacket and the still jacket being the same. Also, great stuff linking it to the Grace jumping the pit jacket.

10-15-2010, 08:58 PM
Thank you, NB. That's perfect.

DSS; I'm pretty sure that the pink look is the fabric. The pants were inspired by WWII uniform pants that were nicknamed "officer's pinks." :) Many figure that they tried to match those.


Thanks for the clarification; however, I should point out that I already knew about the Officer Pinks, etc. Not being ugly or rude, just letting you know I was already aware of it. :)

I just was wondering about why most people order the dark khaki or the new vintage cavalry twill from Magnoli, for instance, to duplicate the Raiders look when it looks like the pink is the more accurate color.

But we're getting off topic as this thread is about the prototype JACKET, not PANTS :D Feel free to post your answer or thoughts on this, but I think I'll move it over to the other thread as I don't want to be responsible for side-tracking this thread that Neutronbomb has so diligently put together with hard work. Doing so would be disrespectful to him.

Thanks again though.


10-16-2010, 12:13 AM
Yeah, this is just really great.

I like your spotting of the small but really clear things like the zipper kink - great catch.

Why are the patch pockets noteworthy? Different shape or positioning?

10-16-2010, 01:15 AM
It's up to Neutronbomb in any case, but that's a tough call, DSS. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but I know from talking to NB that his goal (the goal of the whole site, really) is to try to get at the truth and get that out there. But, there has already been occasions where some of his analysis has been used to promote--let's call it propaganda, shall we?

10-16-2010, 02:02 AM

Indeed. Just looking out to make sure his work is safe-guarded. I will be striking that statement from the thread as it probably shouldn't have been mentioned anyway. Thanks for bringing up the goal of things.



10-16-2010, 02:02 AM
Thanks for thinking of me DSS 8)

But, yeah, if this is of interest to anyone in the Indy community, then I'm happy to share it. I splashed across the photo analysis' and there's the dates so we should be covered.

@gunslinger. I do think the patch pockets and flaps are different sizes and shapes than the other two jackets. It looks to me like they're shorter and further away from the bottom edge of the jacket. But, it was also to show how the various pics and screengrabs match each other. For instance, the wearer's right side patch pocket looks very small and scrunched in the Terry Leonard Truck Drag screengrab(s) and also with the behind the scenes photo of him walking.

10-16-2010, 02:09 AM
Thanks for thinking of me DSS 8)

But, yeah, if this is of interest to anyone in the Indy community, then I'm happy to share it. I splashed across the photo analysis' and there's the dates so we should be covered.

Anytime Neutronbomb! :) I just saw the incredible amount of detail and work you put into it and didn't want someone committing the blatant comparable sin to plagarism by stealing your information without your consent. I know what it's like to give something your all, only to worry that some lazy sucker will pass it off as their own and reap the credit for it. But it's your choice and really I shouldn't have even mentioned it (hence the striking of it from the record).

You have my fullest backing on all that you say and do my friend! Just so you know that! So keep it up! You make us fans truly awed and proud to be in your company.


10-16-2010, 03:00 AM
Wow. Thanks DSS. Really great comments by all. Loved the BOOM comment from gunslinger. Still chuckling. But I don't want to get too carried away here. I have spent a huge amount of time on this, but it's just what I see. I'm hoping others will be able to see any "rabbit holes" since it goes against what "those who were there" have been credited with on the subject. Also, if I remember correctly, RCSignals first raised the possibility that these might be the same jacket and a fellow Indy fan Eric Holt did the first basic analysis. I just ran with it piggy backing on the already great analysis done by Gunslinger. The road was already paved. I just chose to drive it with a Bullit Mustang ???

10-16-2010, 04:30 PM
I've had another thought. Now, this has to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt as there are a lot of unverified variables here, but, NB is talking about patch pockets vs. the cut-in pockets. The G and B,which is supposed to be based off a screen used film jacket, has patch pockets (or the one I owned did, at least) which would match up with what NB is saying about the prototype jacket (used during the trug drag) having patch pockets and the description of the jacket that was examined (I believe that RC has posted the specs from that examination elsewhere on the site).

Again, there are many variables here. For one, is the G and B's patch pockets off the specs of the examined jacket or is that their addition? Plus, there is the question of the reliability of the source that supposedly examined the jacket. The truck drag jacket was first said to be a Wilson's (if memory serves) and we've been told that the stunt jacket examined was a Wested (including notes being sewn in the pockets where Peter said they would be). So, there are a lot of unknowns and contradictions here.

10-16-2010, 06:46 PM
I think maybe I used the term "patch pocket" in a way I shouldn't have. I just meant the pockets on the front of the jacket when I used that term. But, I'd like to hear more about the "cut in" vs "patch" as you're discussing it.

10-16-2010, 07:24 PM
Well, I'm sure I'll mangle any and all terminology, but on Nowak's, the current Todd's Standards, Wested's, etc., the pocket is "cut" into the front of the jacket, meaning there is a cut-out of the pocket in the jacket and cloth is used to form the pocket for the handwarmers (if that makes sense).

On the G and B, the pocket was just sewn onto the front of the jacket. When you put your hand in the handwarmer, it is between the leather of the front of the jacket and the leather of the pocket.

Does this make any sense? ???

10-16-2010, 07:37 PM
Yes. Got it.

Kt Templar
10-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Crismans, do G&B still do it like that?

10-16-2010, 08:44 PM
Crismans, do G&B still do it like that?

I was wondering the same. I'm surprised to hear it and also wonder now if the jacket that was examined which the G+B is based on was also constructed that way. (although the G+B has had alterations to make it more like the main jacket seen on screen)

The description of that jacket is still more or less matching the Bantu Wind/prototype jacket even though the examined jacket is being said to have been one of Peters. I wish Peter would comment on the 'note' claim.

It gets confusing but it has been said now that Peter only made 'stunt' jackets of which the examined jacket was, and also been said that the jacket given to Tony Nowak to duplicate was Martin Grace's stunt jacket. It has also been said that the jacket given to Tony Nowak to duplicate was made by Cooper. Why would 'stunt' jackets be so different from the 'main' jacket?
Is it possible the prototype jacket/Bantu Wind jacket was in fact the jacket examined?

Sorry if this is getting off from NB's research.

10-17-2010, 02:26 PM
You are directly on my line of questions, RC (although you did a better job of stating them). I don't know if G and B still does their pockets that way or not (or if mine was somehow "special"). Perhaps someone else who has a G and B can comment on this?

But, the original notes on the "stunt jacket" matches pretty well with the "prototype" jacket that NB is looking at (and, from those notes, the G and B was derived--but with fan input on the specs at this point). Could you post those notes again, RC?

And, to be quite frank, I wouldn't put much stock in what has been said, as of late. There appears, to those that care to notice, a definite effort to "rewrite" history in order to match some agenda. Cooper has been brought in as the maker of the jacket, discarded, and then brought back in. Peter has been relegated to stunt jacket status, Tony Nowak didn't have a clue on what leather a jacket was made of and took a guess, and so on. I'm not banking on anything that doesn't come from the prinicpals or is something I can see for the time being.

10-17-2010, 05:11 PM
This has been floating around for 10 years describing a jacket that was examined by a fan and that specs of it were given to G&B for their Indy jacket development. I think it's pretty obvious it wasn't the main jacket(s) HF wears in ROTLA. The only chance of it being a screen used jacket is if it were the prototype/bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket.

Some of the items that I've bolded below from the description of the jacket examined in 2000 don't appear to match photos of The Prototype/Bantu Wind/Truck Drag Jacket.

Posted on August 07, 2000 at 15:01:29:

"I was able to examination an original jacket from Raiders over the weekend. I examined the jacket as well as the documents certifying its authenticity. I brought along a Wested jacket for comparison, though after owning three, I think I could have done this from memory. Peter even dropped me a hint as to an item I might look for to verify it was one of his. Based on all that I had before me, I believe that this was an authentic article.

So here goes…

For the most part, the items we've been debating made up the bulk of the differences:

1.The leather used was noticeably thicker then that on my Wested.

2.This particular jacket had rectangular rings 1 inch by ½ inch, rather then the d-rings. They were painted black.

3.The straps were thicker and a bit wider. The thickness was due to the leather being three layers thick rather then two.

4.The straps were attached within the seam of the jacket, which runs a few inches from the hand warmer slit, i.e. they were not attached right next to the hand warmer slit as with my Wested. A reinforcing length of stitching ran approximately ¼ inch from the seam on the side towards the hand warmer slit. This stitching was through the outer jacket and through the part of the strap under the seam.

5.The rings were attached under the seam like the Wested, but were much more flush with the edge of the rear panel, i.e. they were barely visible unless the bi-swing pleat were opened.

6.Also, a very interesting thing was that the stitching for the ring attachment went through the rear panel. This could explain why sometimes it looks like the attachment is on the outside and sometimes on the inside.

7.The overall side strap attachment is slightly above the center of the hand warmer slit opening, NOT level with the bottom of the opening as with my Wested.

8.The length of the bi-swing pleat ran ½ inch above the attachment of the ring attachment to the rear panel. As such, the bi-swing pleat on the Wested needs to be appropriately longer.

9.One big surprise - there were gussets under the arms! This explains a particular fit problem I've always had with the Wested, i.e. you cannot move your arms around much without the entire body of the jacket moving with you. The gussets would fix this. They were made up of two panels, each ¾ inch wide. Together they were shaped like an elongated eye. They serve as a kind of pleat under the arm to allow arm movement without affecting fit or how the jacket hangs. Very interesting.

10.The collar attachment to the storm flap was correct in basic configuration, but the Wested is off in scale. The storm flap on the original was 3/4 inch narrower, and the collar band was only ¾ inch wide vs. 1 1/8 on the Wested. Other then that the collar dimensions were dead-on. Sorry, but the collar band did attach to the top of the storm flap, creating the "cap" to the storm flap - some have disputed this, though I cannot recall who. The resulting collar sat more flat against the jacket.

11.The bi-swing pleat was 1 ½ inches deep, vs. 1 inch on my Wested. The extra ½ inch makes a big difference in the appearance of the pleat.

12.The seam under the sleeve was lined up perfectly with the seam across the back of the jacket.

13.The inside pocket was a simple leather-bound slit, not the more elaborate configuration of my Wested. Actually, I really do prefer the more elaborate setup, but that's not the purpose here.

14.The lining was cotton - heavier then the cotton I have on my LC Wested. It was more like a lightweight denim-like material. The color was very close to my Wested's, however.

15.The cargo pockets were dead-on.

16.The zipper was the cheap aluminum type, with several teeth missing.

17.The jacket had two tears - one on each elbow. Quite probably the reason it was set aside from the production.

18.The color was a very deep brown - almost black in indoor light. Under bright light it did have a very subtle reddish hue.

I have drawings and measurements in note form. I'll put together some diagrams to try and clarify all this in the next few days.

Fun stuff!"

Notice the NO full bi-swing and strap attachments on The Prototype jacket Below that seem to contradict #4 and #8 above:

Also, it appears that a slider was used and not rings which seems to contradict #2 above.

It seems a stretch that 3 layers of leather were used for the straps by the look of The Prototype Jacket. It's possible the jacket that was examined in 2000 was just another Wested Jacket in one of it's many variations. It wouldn't totally surprise me as it also seems fairly certain the Kurtz jacket and the Butterfields jacket are also Wested replicas.

10-17-2010, 06:19 PM
It is very possible (and a theory that has been put forth before, but put down heavily) that the jacket examined above was another Wested jacket in one of their incarnations. The reason to deny this is obvious: the G and B is backed by the "powers that be" as a copy of an authentic replica. To find out that it was, in fact (and, even if this were true, not to take away from any of the obvious assets of a G and B), a copy of a Wested would be quite the proverbial black eye for some people.

10-17-2010, 06:39 PM
Yep. The person who examined the jacket said Peter told him to look in the pocket for a message that one of the women who worked in his shop tended to sew in the pocket lining as a joke and this would show that Wested made the jacket. It was there and said something like, "help I'm being held prisoner" or something like that. So it seems likely the jacket was made by Wested as one of their Raider replicas.

10-17-2010, 06:46 PM
Unless Wested also made the Bantu Wind jacket, but the pattern was later changed?

did the person who examined the jacket not say they were not allowed to touch it, or take photos?
Apparently Terry Leonard's name was written in it, which might make sense if the jacket was used by him for the truck drag.

Terry Leonard did tell Tony Nowak though that the jacket(s) assigned to him were turned in to wardrobe at the end of filming, and he was confused and amused by reports he had heard that he had kept his jacket and at one point donated it to a charity auction, since he did not keep the jacket(s). So that jacket, if indeed was one he wore, did not come from him.

Does anyone know where that particular jacket is now?

Kt Templar
10-17-2010, 06:47 PM
The story goes she (Doris) put the notes in the film jackets because they were done on a such a tight deadline and they were working overtime.

There has never been any suggestion that she would put the notes in any jackets other than the ones made for the movie.

10-17-2010, 06:59 PM
Yes Kt why would such a note be put in a jacket not made for the movie?

The story of a note would be more convincing if Peter had asked to be told what was in one of the pockets, rather than saying exactly what to look for.....but maybe that is what Peter asked for, perhaps he can elaborate.

10-17-2010, 07:54 PM
Good points by all. Based on what Kt said a message wouldn't be in a fan replica. But, the features don't match any of the jackets we see on screen. The Protype/Bantu is closest but still doesn't match up to the description so it's a mystery.

12-09-2010, 07:26 AM
Very serious work done here guys, congrats.

Raider S
12-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Platon, nice to see you posting again. Are you still at work on pants? But maybe that is for another thread in another area!

12-10-2010, 03:53 PM
I will reply in good time.

02-03-2011, 12:50 AM
These are the three best screengrabs of this jacket I have been able to find. I can't say for sure, but I'd probably lean towards The Prototype Jacket if I had to guess.

I think in that last one the slit at the bi-swing looks most like this. There may be a hint to a lower yoke seam also in those above screengrabs. Maybe not. You'll have to decide.

02-03-2011, 12:56 AM
Is that Ford doing that scene?

02-03-2011, 01:08 AM
LOL. I don't know. I saw the shoes and to me they look like the stunt ones that we see ala the truck cab fight stomping on gas pedal. But from what I've read I think the falling statue was stunt performed by a stuntman. There are definitely some experts out there on who performed all the stunts in Raiders I'm sure that could answer it for sure.

02-03-2011, 05:27 PM
In the feature, "Great Movie Stunts: Raiders of the Lost Ark", they go through that stunt in detail. It's Martin Grace who handles it. Here are a few screengrabs from the youtube video of him preparing for the stunt. Sorry about the quality of the grabs, though. :-[

02-03-2011, 08:07 PM
Thanks Ravenswood. I think it's the Bantu Wind Film Jacket/Prototype jacket and also the Terry Leonard Truck drag jacket. Thanks for posting those caps. here's the Youtube video. Can see the yoke and strap/bi-swing at 21:40 and the jacket's right side collar stand at 23:20 to 23:39. It is blurry for sure. But, I think the collar stand/collar set up/presentation is a match for this. If there's better, clearer copies out there it would be great to know to check out.


RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK - GREAT MOVIE STUNTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDEjKrmckE0#)
Minute 23:29/23:32, pause, I think is the best spot for a match to this. This is an old screengrab that I put zipper gap on, however, I think it's actually a kink in the collar stand.

02-03-2011, 08:49 PM
Yep. Recognised that flaring-open front immediately. Great spot!

04-05-2011, 10:27 AM
I have the Great Movie Stunts on VHS but sadly cant get it put on to DVD

08-05-2011, 03:35 AM
Here's what I've updated on the first post of this thread:

« Last Edit: August 4, 2011 by neutronbomb »

It's time to finalize my opinion of where I think The Prototype Jacket is used in the film. I've kept the previous post intact further below starting at "« Edited: October 14, 2010..... »" and that's where the bulk of the information and intro concerning this jacket is located.

This update is basically adding "The Running From Hovitos" Hawaii scene and the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt" to the time stamps for where The Prototype Jacket Appears and confirming that The Prototype Jacket was worn by Martin Grace for the "Falling Statue Stunt".

In order of appearance in the movie (In order filmed is Bantu Wind, Temple, WOS, Tunisia, Hawaii):

1.. Temple Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt: 8:38 - 8:39 (Grace)
2. Hawaii Temple Exit Dive: 9:38 - 9:41 (Armstrong)
3. Hovitos Chase/Swim the River: 10:55 - 12:10 (Armstrong/Ford)
4. Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt: 1:14:17 - 1:14:26 (Grace)
5. Horseback: 1:22:28 - 1:23:02, 1:23:10 - 1:23:25, 1:23:26 - 1:23:33 (Leonard)
6. Through the Windshield: 1:27:15 - 1:27:16 (Leonard)
7. Truck Hood/Grill: 1:27:17 - 1:27:19, 1:27:30 - 1:27:31, 1:27:40 - 1:27:42 (Leonard)
8. Truck Drag: 1:27:43 - 1:28:05, 1:28:07 - 1:28:17 (Leonard)
9. Omar's Garage: 1:29:17 - 1:29:26 (Leonard)
10. Bantu Wind Dockside: 1:29:51 - 1:31:36 (Ford)

I'll be getting some pics up later in another post, but for me, I no longer have any doubt that the Running from Hovitos jacket is The Prototype Jacket. Also, It's looking like all three stuntmen primarily used only one jacket, The Prototype Jacket. And though I've been reluctant for some reason to accept it, I believe the airplane jacket is The Main Hero Jacket. This would mean all three jackets: The Main Hero, The Imam, and The prototype were in Hawaii.

I should be able to get The Main Hero and The Imam Jacket threads updated by sometime tomorrow.

08-13-2011, 02:27 AM
Here's a few screengraps of Martin Grace wearing The Prototype Jacket in the behind the scenes film in the WOS Falling Statue Stunt. I've marked the jacket's right side collar set up with four features that stand out to me. In the next post I'll match it up with photos of the Bantu Wind scene, Terry Leonard jacket screengrabs, Hovitos Chase scene, and a few others.


08-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Making progress. Here's a few composites to compare along with screengrabs of Pit Jump, Terry Leonard, Hovitos Chase, and Bantu Wind.





Pit Jump Promo:

Pit Jump Film:

Terry Leonard:

Hovitos Chase:

Bantu Wind:

11-16-2011, 07:36 PM
I have a pretty noob question for you jacket gurus :noob:

I'm pretty convinced that the jacket Tony had to copy was the Hawaii jacket. And the "Hero" jacket Gunslinger came up with the specs for is the closest thing you can get next to the screen-used jacket. Now, is there a pretty accurate version of the prototype jacket that vendors offer?

11-16-2011, 11:04 PM
It depends on your definition of accurate. There are definitely some differences between this jacket and the other two: The Main Hero and The Imam jackets. Visually, what I think are two that really stand out is the yoke and the strap attachment/action back/bi-swing set up.

As far as the yoke goes. The arm seam and the yoke seam are lined up with the yoke seam lower down the back than the other two jackets used in the movie. This makes for a larger yoke than the other two jackets have as those two seams on them are offset with the yoke seam being higher up the back than on the prototype jacket.

There have been a few manufactures who have had at different times the arm seams and yoke seam lined up. Wings, Wested, and recently Todds. I think his was a one time by the manufacture deal and he referred to it as the Bantu wind jacket.

As far as the strap attachment and bi swing. The protype is much different than the other two. The photos in the prototype jacket thread should show these differences fairly well. I don't know of any makers that incorporate the protype jacket set up.

I think of The Imam and The Main Hero as very similar with the Bantu wind/prototype as the odd duck out.

11-17-2011, 07:27 AM
Also, watch for the position of the strap buckle (triglide) of the main hero in relation to vendor replicas.
From memory I believe the main hero's back strap loop could have been shorter perhaps than what most vendors do today.
This certainly has to be examined with screen grabs versus the replica jackets.

05-13-2013, 07:14 PM
Do you think this jacket is made from a shinier type of leather to the other two? The similarities to the Wested shrunken lamb are notable. Very different to the more matt striated lamb which seems to match the main Hero better.

05-14-2013, 01:44 AM
I don't know. The filters and colors on all these jackets are all over the place. I can pretty much find a photo to match any jacket with another. I've currently been exploring the theory that they used the same leather. But hides are different. Like Steele & Jones batch of Ribby Merino. I had to choose between three hides for the right chest panel. All three hides texture/characteristics were different.

Anyway here's something quick. Main Hero vs Prototype:

Too poor quality to determine anything really, but still a fun photo of the two jackets in the same frame:

And before you all start getting hot and heavy about the Prototype having rounded collar tips from looking at the Terry Leonard photo above. I think it's pretty much the same for the main hero too.

Ahhh...wow! And there you go. The Prototype Jacket.

05-14-2013, 03:02 AM
Isn't this picture the "Hawaii" jacket though? Not the main hero?


05-14-2013, 03:38 AM
I feel very confident that all three were used throughout the entire Hawaii shoot and that this was one of the times where The Main Hero was used.

From The Main Hero Jacket thread:

"It looks like in addition to using The Main Hero Jacket for the Airplane sequence in the Hawaii scene, they also used it for the Paramount Mountain sequence. Watch the first couple of minutes of the video.

Left Collar Foldover Match:

Hawaii screencap taken from 1:16-1:17 min. from the video below. The right side collar stand "W" can also be seen.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/th_themainhero_leftcollarfoldover4.png (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Main%20Hero%20Jacket/?action=view&current=themainhero_leftcollarfoldover4.png)

[edit: looks like link to video has been taken down]

05-14-2013, 07:28 AM
Yes, it's clearly not straightforward but I was thinking of those publicity shots of Ford against the stone wall (which I believe use the prototype?) , where there is a clear shine on the jacket as it looks striking similar to Wested's shrunken lamb. By the time the jacket is used for the truck chase it's looking much duller but is presumably covered in dust.

09-03-2014, 07:33 PM
Promo jacket pics are of The Prototype Jacket.




To try and avoid confusion on the lettering of the jackets that were at the time a work in progress. Jacket A, I do NOT believe is The Prototype Jacket. Jacket B, IS The Prototype Jacke IMO which makes it the same jacket as the promo photos I labeled with a 'C'.

10-14-2014, 11:11 PM
Problem. In the TOD thread Crisman pointed out the pockets look larger on one of the promo jackets than it should for the smaller TOD size pockets that the prototype jacket should have. I put together a photo collage to show the problem. Additionally, it looks like Terry Leonard actually wears two different jackets while filming the stunts. The prototype and The Imam. Check it out. It looks to me like that would mean two jackets were sent over with the second unit to film the truck drag stunt leaving HF with the main hero to continue filming at Ellstree studios.

The thing that I can't resolve is how the left side collar on the Promo pics look the same as The Prototype. But the Promo photo(s) that show the larger Imam type pockets don't match with the smaller prototype pockets even though the left side collar looks the same. I hate that I am left with the idea that The Imam started out with the curved moonish left side collar and that it then got straightened out while the prototype's similar curved moonish left side collar was left the same. But, I just don't like it. The damn left side collars on the promo pics and the prototype just look way, way too uniquely similar. But, then the pockets appear to be different sizes. That's the dilemma. Any ideas?


12-24-2014, 02:20 AM
I’ll tell you what I think. I think I made a mistake on identifying the promo photos as The Prototype Jacket. Tip of the hat (fedora) to Crismans for drawing attention to this. Will work on getting photos up to show where I’m currently at on this. For now I’m thinking that the “problem” photo from the previous post below is as follows:

1. Terry Leonard is wearing the Imam Jacket in this behind the scenes photo. This bothers me because I don’t see where he wears it in the film. However, it does make sense. Here’s a hypothesis. They sent two jackets over with the second unit in case one gets damaged. The second unit is over in Tunisia filming the truck chase/drag stunts.

2. The Imam Jacket from the Imam film scene. Looks identical to the jacket Terry’s wearing in #1.

3. #3/4 and 7 are The Prototype Jacket.

4. #5 and 6 are the Imam Jacket.

I suspect the “backwards” strap look from #5 and this promo photo below is from not having the strap through both sides of the buckle, just the first side.