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neutronbomb
09-05-2010, 06:28 PM
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010 by neutronbomb »

We will need our own jacket write-ups, along with other write-ups of course, for Fortune and Glory and I want to start a topic discussing a few things. One of the purposes of this thread is to make note of the date of this post: September 05, 2010 PST. We are proud of our content and the work we do and let there be no mistake, we need to safeguard to the best of our ability the ideas, information, and development of our Indiana Jones content. I'm concerned with protecting our ideas and information from showing up and being used elsewhere as a basis for new information developments. This is our community and although I'm not using this specific post to refer to copyright and trademark methods, I'd like to offer up the suggestion that we be aware of and not tolerate it when we see our Indiana Jones content and underlying information and ideas being used elsewhere for Nefarious purposes. Post and thread dates are important. Our own Gunslinger has spent considerable time and effort in examining on film the jacket(s) Harrison Ford wears in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark which he has shared with us in the 'Tracking Jackets in Raiders' thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=8.0). The date of his first post in that thread is July 25, 2010 PST and I owe credit to it for the inspiration it has given me for my ideas and research based on examining the film regarding the jackets used in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

From my perspective, here's my thoughts concerning the Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Ark Jacket:

I believe much of the past information put forward and presented to the Indiana Jones fan community at large as fact regarding the jackets used in the filming of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark is an evolving fabrication. I feel Fortune and Glory should take a different approach. Possibly use other threads within fortune and Glory's Indiana Jones Jacket topic to start threads to examine and discuss information and then have 'Top Men' possibly put it all together in a page or two for our Raiders of the Lost Ark jacket write-up. Please, let's share our ideas about this and what we want and how it should be presented.

In the coming days I will be offering up and presenting my thoughts on the Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Ark film jacket(s) for the purposes of having them put under a microscope and torn apart. My first thread to examine and discuss information pertaining to the Raiders of the lost Ark Jacket(s) is The Imam Jacket thread.

Here's what I'll be trying to show specifically with the jackets used in Raiders of the Lost Ark with that thread and with possibly introducing other threads:

There were three Raiders of the Lost Ark film jackets:

The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0)
The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0)
The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0)

The jacket Deborah Nadoolman Landis was given at Berman and Nathans and that she took to France for the Bantu Wind film scene shooting was the prototype jacket. It was used for the shooting in France and worn by Harrison Ford there. After that, it was retired from Harrison Ford's use and given to Terry Leonard to be used as a stunt jacket in the truck drag, parts of the horseback, and going out the window truck cab fight scene.

When shooting moved from France and began at Ellstree, two new jackets with spec changes requested based off feedback from the first prototype jacket were made to costume departments standards and were finished and available for use for filming for the rest of the movie. They were now Harrison Ford's primary jackets. The Main Hero Jacket and a back up one that I refer to as The Imam Jacket as it is the first scene in shooting schedule where we see that jacket make it's appearance. The Back Up/Imam Jacket also being used by Martin Grace for a few seconds in the film's second Temple Pit Scene: Jumping The Pit Stunt.

Raiders was quick and dirty. It was cheap. It was a B movie. There were not teams of costuming engineers spending 24 -7 performing convoluted, miraculous, twists of incredible jacket magic on a multitude of multiple jackets. It was easy. Costume budget had been blown. They got a prototype they used briefly on Harrison Ford's back and then designated as a stunt jacket to be worn by Terry Leonard followed by receiving two additional jackets for use by Harrison Ford for the rest of filming. They retired the Main jacket right before they filmed the bullethole scene.

The two questions I have is why they switched HF's primary jacket from the Imam's scene jacket to what became the Main Hero jacket at some point in the shooting of the Temple scene sequence. The answer may be as simple as it was thought what became the Main Hero jacket presented better on film. The second is why did they retire the Main Hero Jacket before filming the Raiders of the Lost Ark bullet hole scene. Maybe it's possible they wanted to protect the Main Hero Jacket from possible extensive damage caused by squibbing in case they needed it for filler shots or reshoots or something and it either didn't make it to Hawaii or they repaired the sleeve of The Imam Jacket, that was used for the bullet hole scene and the rest of the cab fight/truck chase film scene where we see Harrison Ford wearing a jacket, and decided to use it for the Hawaii shoot because it was the least worn out beat up looking jacket and would present better for the first scene that is presented at the beginning of the Raiders of the Lost Ark film.

I would like to make the rest of this thread and topic available for discussing the information that could and should be used in Fortune and Glory's Indiana Jones Jacket Write-Ups. What do we as members want from our jacket write-ups? What do we as members want to publicly share and state? Let's brainstorm about our Indiana Jones Jacket Write-ups.

admin
09-05-2010, 06:58 PM
This is a great idea and I agree with your thoughts on the ownership of material and guarding against theft of it. Thank you for initiating this, NB. I look forward to seeing more of your and hopefully others' contributions as well.

crismans
09-05-2010, 07:50 PM
You need to get that thread up, NB! Because I have to ask, are you saying that the Imam's jacket was used in Hawaii? I'm thinking four jackets. BW (Bantu Wind jacket), I'mam's, MJ (the one we see the most in the temple, etc.), and the Hawaii. Anyway, I'm jumping the gun. Get that post up!

Although, I should mention that you have your Imam's up (as you said) and I've got the BW jacket up. I'll post in your Imam's thread about it being the Hawaii later.

PLATON
09-05-2010, 08:10 PM
I also feel that the Imam is the Hawaii

neutronbomb
09-05-2010, 08:25 PM
Crismans I do feel the imams is the Hawaii. In my Imam's thread I am showing screencaps of the different scenes the imams jacket appears in. I have a screencap of the jacket used in the Hawaii scene in that thread. I am focusing on one aspect of the jacket at a time. Right now I have been focused on showing where the unique to that jacket's zipper swoop appears. The main jacket never presents that way. It most commonly presents as a gaping open 'C'. I'll be rolling out other features as I evolve through the different visible identifying features that can be tracked across the different scenes the jacket appears in.

On Monday I'll be commenting in your Bantu wind thread. I was waiting to see if anyone would find and post the best screencap of that jacket's strap attachment.

Kt Templar
09-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Another thing to note. The Raven Bar jacket shows the same ribby lines as the in front of flying wing jacket.

This would kind of conflict with the idea that all the studio jackets were the same one as the Idol grab does not seem to show the ribbed right chest.

I think it would help to have pics to identify which jacket people are talking about in each scene. One problem that arises is in certain scenes when we swap between Harrison and stuntmen we can actually sometimes tell because of the change in jacket. Eg. when Indy is thrown out of the truck window, you can see it is not him sliding across the hood of the truck, but next cut it is him. 2 very different jackets.

neutronbomb
09-05-2010, 09:27 PM
This is going to be fun. I'll be breaking every scene down. Thanks for your input KT.

Gunslinger
09-05-2010, 10:39 PM
IMO the Idol Grab jacket is the Hero jacket - same as the Raven, flying wing, etc. Watch this space.

PLATON
09-06-2010, 12:56 PM
The temple jacket is the Raven jacket and the well of souls jacket.

I was thinking that it was the same as the flying wing jacket but its not.
The difference is that the pocket flaps of front pockets of the flying wing are not sewn with the 'piped' manner.

Any comments?

Kt Templar
09-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Ok, I concur. Idol Grab is Raven/Flying Wing. There are ribs on the right chest:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8615/idolgrab.jpg (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/idolgrab.jpg/)

Raskolnikov
09-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Although the image looks too blurred to be completely sure, I think I see them too, most of all on the right shoulder. Good catch.

Raskolnikov
09-06-2010, 08:51 PM
And here they are again:



http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20ZIPPER/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--7.jpg


Floppy collar, ribs on the right chest... You are right, guys: this one looks like the Flying wing jacket.

crismans
09-06-2010, 10:08 PM
I've always thought that the Temple was the same jacket as shown in the Raven, the WoS (certainly the promo shots done there), and the Flying Wing. The ribs stick out more in the Flying Wing than the other shots because of the dust, of course.

I'll have to look for this piping detail that Platon has mentioned to see if that makes me revise my opinion. Could you give more details on what to look for, Platon?

Tyderium
09-07-2010, 06:21 AM
http://a.imageshack.us/img138/5313/templeflyingwingjacket2.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/templeflyingwingjacket2.jpg/)

The Temple jacket does appear to be the Main Jacket.

The ribby mark on the right shoulder, below the seam shows up clearly when the contrast of the Temple image is adjusted and it corresponds to the same mark and positioning just below the seam on the Flying Wing jacket image. The ribbiness of the Temple jacket further down on the right chest panel is much harder to see in this particular image but the ridges are there, albeit faintly, if you look close enough.

This has been discussed in previous times but I also believe what became the Main Jacket was originally a stunt jacket.

I feel the haste in construction evidenced in the disproportioned collar - the resulting 'droopy' effect, the heavily striated or cheap ribbiness of some of the panels, especially on the front of the jacket would have originally designated it as a stunt jacket, (probably at least in the eyes of wardrobe/costume department) when compared with the more even collar construction and non-ribby texturing of the hero (Imam) jacket.

The stunt jackets had aluminium zippers painted brass, the zipper on Main Jacket appears to be silver (brass paint come off). Perhaps it was as simple as Ford picking up the stunt jacket that Grace was using - found it more comfortable, cooler to wear under the studio lights or felt it looked better or rested better on his frame. The swap seems to have happened prior to the Pit stunt scene where Ford now looks to be wearing what may have originally been Grace's stunt jacket and Grace is wearing Ford's hero Imam jacket. I think the Imam and the Hawaii are the same jacket.

Gunslinger
09-07-2010, 09:00 AM
Ok, some random thoughts / grabs as we're crossing over into the Tracking Jackets thread. There were a few bits and pieces I didn't include then as it was convoluted anough already. ;) http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=8.0 but I'll just put them here to help with the current flow.

Coming through the spider webs:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-17h42m49s168.jpg
and part 2 of the same shot:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-17h41m04s177.jpg

This is definitely a pointy collar (it's clearer when going in slow-motion) - and there is -potentially- a low yoke. It's the Imam's jacket, if not the Bantu Wind. Which strap setup does it look more like?


Another marker: The bad distressing work on the right shoulder seam of the main hero jacket. See this?

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders2010-05-22-14h59m27s253-1.jpg

Here it is in the first setup where we see the Main jacket. Again, it's better when played.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-17h01m48s136.jpg


Tyderium, I've got a theory I've written somewhere that the droopy collar is the same cut as the other jackets, but it was trained that way by accident. I think the flipped collar for a few days started it, and it leans to the right because of the Mk7 on the opposite side, and maybe even Ford was keeping his stuff in that cargo pocket which would pull it down. My Nowak does that when I put a pocket knife or keys in there. I'm really not sure about the whole painting zippers thing. I think it's a fairy tale. I think the zippers were slightly yellowed nickel - as Tony Nowak confirmed on the one he examined. But 100% agree that the jacket was swapped because Ford liked the fit (or something) better. The Main/Hero looks VERY thin and light, so I think you're right with the hot lights or similar. I can imagine he would have realised if he was hot in a studio, it was gonna get worse with TUNISIA in his future. :D ...so he made a call!

But the other thing is the Imams jacket could have turned out to look to "billowy" - I mean look at it / BW in the first shot above - looks very puffy. Maybe the 'berg wanted something a bit more slim cut and dashing.


Platon, the flying wing jacket is definietly the same Main / Hero jacket. The bloody lip shot is clearly of the Main jacket, as is the by-the-barrels shot. There are also these. Note the distinctive collar stand, zipper, droopy collar and the matching striations:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-18h34m24s184.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-18h33m47s37.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-18h32m08s101.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-09-07-18h31m57s165.jpg

PLATON
09-07-2010, 10:51 AM
Platon, the flying wing jacket is definietly the same Main / Hero jacket. The bloody lip shot is clearly of the Main jacket, as is the by-the-barrels shot. There are also these. Note the distinctive collar stand, zipper, droopy collar and the matching striations:


Are you willing to bet your jacket ?

Gunslinger
09-07-2010, 11:53 AM
:D

What are you ponying up against it, big boy?

crismans
09-27-2010, 08:24 PM
I'm basically starting this thread to see if we can track the history of the jacket. Maybe if we can lay it all out, we can spot the contradictions that have been set out there and find the truth? I'm going to go through my notes and lay out what I can when my wife is home as I have to make sure the little one doesn't burn down the house right now, but feel free to get this started. Maybe if we make this a community project, working together, we can find our way through the maze. This exercise will at least be Minotaur free! ;D

RCSignals
10-15-2010, 04:39 AM
We probably have some good info for this thread spread in other posts too.

crismans
10-16-2010, 01:09 AM
We probably have some good info for this thread spread in other posts too.


I'm sure we have. I haven't forgotten about it, but I've been a bit busy to look through the interviews of the principals involved (in their own words) and work out a time line yet. It is on my to-do list though.

neutronbomb
12-05-2010, 10:36 PM
djd. I don't know if you've read this thread and the related ones linked in my first post, but I'd like to get your opinions if you haven't as it relates to what you're discussing about F&G doing in regards to the Raiders/Indy jackets.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
12-05-2010, 10:46 PM
hopefully the Main Hero/ Hawaii/ and Prototype threads will get put as 'Important Topics' pretty soon.. ;) ;)

and Crismans 'History of the Raider Jacket' thread could get rolling as another line of evidence...http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=605.0

Gunslinger
12-05-2010, 10:48 PM
When I get my new jacket in, I'm going to do a bit of a compilation of all the specific grain patterns on the Hero jacket, so that should help feed into it. We could also do a scene-by-scene breakdown WITH grabs.

RCSignals
12-05-2010, 10:55 PM
hopefully the Main Hero/ Hawaii/ and Prototype threads will get put as 'Important Topics' pretty soon.. ;) ;)

and Crismans 'History of the Raider Jacket' thread could get rolling as another line of evidence...http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=605.0


Kind of like an archival section?

neutronbomb
12-05-2010, 11:06 PM
I would actually like others, maybe Mac since he has often taken an opposing view on what I see, to offer up different takes on the prototype, imams, and Main jacket threads. The more people giving their takes the better as far as I'm concerned. Then maybe we can look at compiling something taking everything into consideration.

djd
12-06-2010, 05:18 AM
djd. I don't know if you've read this thread and the related ones linked in my first post, but I'd like to get your opinions if you haven't as it relates to what you're discussing about F&G doing in regards to the Raiders/Indy jackets.


Yes mate... Exactly the sort of thing but pulling together the best of everyones thoughts if that's possible. Importantly it had to be easy to find and easy to read for the general public. maybe even post a version on the facebook group page? Would help recruit new members as well as ensure the work reaches a wider audience.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
05-26-2011, 03:29 AM
hey :drink: where are the jacket write ups and all that good stuff?

crismans
05-26-2011, 02:52 PM
There has been some talk about this. We (and I'm including myself here) need to talk to as many of the major players as we can interview. The problem is that much of what we've been told and has been accepted as canon on the jackets has proven suspect under examination.

Remember that the secret agent accountant who uses a pseudonym to protect his identity has given us much of that "information" has killed a Rottweiler with his bare hands and given the eulogy at a war hero's funeral who isn't apparently dead.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
05-26-2011, 09:53 PM
oh, I was looking for the threads that were in the 'important topics' section... found them :banllama:

crismans
05-27-2011, 03:22 AM
Oh. :angel:

Well, I never get tired of pointing out the inconsistencies! ;D

neutronbomb
08-05-2011, 07:21 PM
I went back and read the first post in this thread that I wrote from September of last year. In reviewing the film and exploring different features of the jackets used in the movie through various threads here at F&G, I still believe that only three jackets were used in the filming of ROTLA. I will continue to post pics and photos in those threads as time allows to show matching features, etc. I've completed all the time stamps in the film for the jackets used in ROTLA. They are located in these three threads:

The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0)
The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0)
The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0)

However, I would like to update what I wrote in the first post of this thread:


The jacket Deborah Nadoolman Landis was given at Berman and Nathans and that she took to France for the Bantu Wind film scene shooting was the prototype jacket. It was used for the shooting in France and worn by Harrison Ford there. After that, it was retired from Harrison Ford's use and given to Terry Leonard to be used as a stunt jacket in the truck drag, parts of the horseback, and going out the window truck cab fight scene.

When shooting moved from France and began at Ellstree, two new jackets with spec changes requested based off feedback from the first prototype jacket were made to costume departments standards and were finished and available for use for filming for the rest of the movie. They were now Harrison Ford's primary jackets. The Main Hero Jacket and a back up one that I refer to as The Imam Jacket as it is the first scene in shooting schedule where we see that jacket make it's appearance. The Back Up/Imam Jacket also being used by Martin Grace for a few seconds in the film's second Temple Pit Scene: Jumping The Pit Stunt.

Here it is updated:


The jacket Deborah Nadoolman Landis was given at Berman and Nathans and that she took to France for the Bantu Wind film scene shooting was the prototype jacket. It was used for the shooting in France and worn by Harrison Ford there. After that, it was retired from Harrison Ford's use (except for the Hovitos Chase scene in Hawaii where we see Ford) and given to Terry Leonard to be used as a stunt jacket in the truck drag, parts of the horseback, and going out the window truck cab fight scene. Additionally, it was used by Martin Grace for the Jump the Pit Stunt in the Temple scene and the Falling Statue Stunt in the WOS scene. It was also used by Vic Armstrong in Hawaii for the Hawaii Temple Exit Dive and Hovitos Chase scenes.

When shooting moved from France and began at Ellstree, two new jackets with spec changes requested based off feedback from the first prototype jacket (this is actually speculation as two why these two jackets are so different than the prototype. It's just an example of a legitimate reason.) were made to costume departments standards and were finished and available for use for filming for the rest of the movie. They were now Harrison Ford's primary jackets. The Main Hero Jacket and a back up one that I refer to as The Imam Jacket as it is the first scene in shooting schedule where we see that jacket make it's appearance. The Back Up/Imam Jacket also being used by Martin Grace for a few seconds in the film's second Temple Pit Scene: Jumping The Pit Stunt.

There has been a lot of confusion over the use of "stunt jacket" and which jacket it was. Much of this comes from one person responsible for the content posted in another websites jacket write-up. It is now clear that much of the information contained in that "jacket write-up" is completely incorrect.

There is only one "stunt" jacket used in the filming of ROTLA. It is the Prototype Jacket and was worn by Ford in two regular scenes of the film: the Bantu Wind, Hovitos Chase and it was the jacket worn by all three stuntmen: Terry Leonard, Vic Armstrong, Martin Grace when they performed stunts for the film.

crismans
08-06-2011, 01:57 AM
Really appreciate you doing this work, Bryan. It's nice to be able to correct the inconsistencies/outright fabrications that have floated around this jacket due to one member of the hobby with delusions of grandeur.

indydude18
08-06-2011, 02:13 AM
This is EXACTLY what I needed to read! neutronbomb, you rock man! :whip:

PLATON
05-22-2012, 09:51 PM
Ok guys who's gonna write it?

djd
05-22-2012, 10:34 PM
There are a number of real experts here who could...

crismans
05-22-2012, 11:13 PM
I have the upmost confidence that Neutronbomb and Gunslinger can write up the technical aspects (and I'm sure that I've missed several others that can add a lot--I just know those guys have put a ton of effort into tracking jackets).

The problem is that we don't know any of the production side of things for the most part. Considering the source for much of what we thought we knew about the jacket, it seems that a clean start is the only approach. We're starting from scratch thirty years on.

Peter (maybe via KT) can certainly impart a lot of that, but he's been burned by "he who shall not be named" (hwsnbn) so many times, I'm not sure he'd be interested. There is Nadoolman's book. I've talked with several people about this and I haven't believed HWSNBN's condemnations of her for a while now. So that would be a source (maybe an interview now that the beast is gone?). I think Agent5 has done a lot of background work as well (and I'm pretty sure he's here under another name). Maybe he would be willing to assist?

I know that we were trying to line up some of the production members for interviews during the early days of this site but nothing much materialized. Not too mention those who have passed on. Maybe coming up with a list of the surviving principal players and then break that list up and have people try to get some interviews with them is the way to go.

neutronbomb
05-23-2012, 02:40 AM
What he said :agree:

If we attempt this it should be as a joint info project with members who really are knowledgeable on this. Like to a sick degree. The problem with me participating is that I'm biased. All way. At this point it would be practically impossible for me to believe more than three jackets appear on film. So if info is gathered that says a dozen jackets were used in the filming of ROTLA I would probably have to start hitting the tequila.

Gunslinger
05-23-2012, 03:25 AM
I'm happy to help. The trick will be how to approach it. Any drafts / content already lying around?

neutronbomb
05-23-2012, 04:37 AM
We need to relay it as part of the Raiders movie story. Actually the entire gear setup is incorporated. Like voice over in between the story line. Or a novelette of the film where in the book of the film it explains everything and fills in all the details the film skips. You know like what the character is thinking or whatever. Like, "Indy was drenched in sweat. His eyes burned with it. As he walked along the narrow, boa constrictor infested, sweltering oven of a jungle path, he thought for the 400 and 5th time, thank God for this Ribby-Merino Striated Brown Shrunken Grain leather jacket. And then he pulled up as his jaw dropped in open-mouthed amazement. His eyes widening under his H & J fawn colored, 5" or maybe it's 4 1/2 inch tall rabbit fur Fedora. Finally, at long last, after a lifetime journey building up to this moment, he had found what he'd been looking for. What he had searched so....long for. Softly he uttered, "This is it."


Or maybe I'm not right after two days of around the clock hard-core partying to the song, 'I like that" with El Tesoro Paradiso tequila.

Gunslinger
05-23-2012, 04:59 AM
Yeah, I think you need to go have a lie down, mate. ???



But yes I think I'm with you. Kind of like the "Making of" book, day by day, but from a gear perspective. Just lay it out.

neutronbomb
05-23-2012, 05:06 AM
Lol. Yeah. I figured.

But, yeah. There you go. That might work. But how to address the gaps. Or what is maybe controversial or up for debate. Without.....um..making it up.

djd
05-23-2012, 11:02 AM
I think it would be a huge shame not to get Peter's recollections on this without any of the COW baggage. He is the only first hand source we are likely to have access to and his story should be recorded for prosperity. That's not the total story of the jacket but it is an absolutely key piece of evidence. Rather better than a fictitious blue book I think?

PLATON
05-23-2012, 11:25 AM
guys
we don't need to have and to name our "sources"
we are not fatterson who needed sources to cover his lies
(I personally don't believe he ever interviewed anyone else except Peter)

we should write down our story as we know it, and put a note there saying that this is the story we believe that is true based on the various information and evidence observed and collected during our years of geardom


I personally think there were only 3 jackets in Raiders and they all mysteriously disappeared after the filming wrapped up, which could be the explanation why they didn't have any jacket to use or copy for ToD which is why they ended up with a completely new jacket. Same thing from ToD to LC of course. Also the LC jackets were all gone, others in auctions others in museums, which is why they had to bring in the Kepler jacket when they asked Peter and Tony to make the CS jacket. I personally believe the hero jacket was either kept by HF or some of the stuntmen. I seriously doubt GL has it in his office. Of course this is only my thoughts and any of it has ever been confirmed.


Forgot to say that we need a gear page with details on all gear items, bag, belt, guns etc

djd
05-23-2012, 11:36 AM
As someone who studied history and now works as a criminal investigator , I have to say that I'm quite keen on citing evidences and sources where they exist....

PLATON
05-23-2012, 11:59 AM
sources are OK to have
all I am saying is why don't have to prove anything
(or don't have a crowd of sheep to convince we're the industry insider)

Dagda
05-23-2012, 12:30 PM
Sources are not intended to prove anything. They only give the interested party the knowledge as to where the information came from and also point the interested party in the right direction if they are so inclined to gather more information. I love sources. But in my field, sources are awesome because they tell me where to go to learn more.

Platon, I think you might have a bad taste in your mouth about stating sources because of the way the "The Insider" used source after contrived source to constantly warp his fictional stories into ones that were increasingly complex and convoluted. He had to keep things fresh, new, and ever increasingly complex so the sheeple would keep tuning in. He had to keep them entertained. So, over the years, we have all these sources who said this and said that.

I have a feeling that if we just went to what ever sources we could find, we would see that the story is actually quite simple. Where did the jacket come from? "Oh, it's quite simple, we had Peter send over about five jackets and we used three of them throughout the picture." It could be that simple. They might not have anything else to say. I doubt the real story is very complex. Those guys were making a movie, not a two hour long feature about a jacket. They had a lot more to deal with. The jacket was probably just one step on a long checklist of things to do, stuck somewhere between ordering the coffee and picking up lunch.

As an example of the BS story and it's complexity, I love the old tale about how the stunt man's jacket in the truck dragging scene was a Wilson's A2 with the cuffs and waist band removed. Really? So when I'm watching the making of documentary, why am I seeing action pleats, Holt's yolk, and side straps? And that's my point. The story is quite simple. The stunt man's jacket looked just like the ones old HF was using. In the LC making of documentary, it looks like in one shot that the stuntman is wearing a straight-up, brand new Wested Last Crusade jactet. It wasn't distressed. It's the scene where he's sitting right next to Ford. They're both wearing their jackets. Ford's was distressed. The stuntman's wasn't. However, they are the same pattern. It's as simple as that. No donkey-powered sewing machines in the desert to make last minute corrections. No hand-off's of mystery jackets in the night between CIA and Lucas.

Now, I can also see the beauty in what you are saying about not needing sources, about just going with what we do know. I think the paragraph above highlights that. We can simply look at making of documentaries and see a lot of the truth staring us right in the face. Patterson just had to make everything so complex so that he could also keep people from thinking they could access knowledge and the truth by simply watching a documentary on a DVD. Hell, anyone could be an expert if that was the case and he couldn't allow that. He had to be the gate keeper of this knowledge, knowledge that's really right there. Hell, fire away at Lucas or Spielberg. They may be more accessible on this than you think, depending on how you approach them. I would approach them as historians who are serious and passionate about a subject. Artists can always appreciate passion coming from people who are passionate about what they do.

djd
05-23-2012, 12:36 PM
That's what I meant. We just present the facts as they are known. Sources may contradict each other. If so, you say so. First hand sources generally have more credibility than second or third hand ones. Strip out the COW poop and leave what's actually known. As you say, it's probably quite a simple story.

PLATON
05-23-2012, 12:51 PM
remember the bullshit story of the pleats sewn up for the truck chase?
remember the bullshit story that the LC jacket was treated with whale oil? (Where the hell they found the whale oil. Whale is protected spieces). The only fact behind the LC jacket looking bulkier than Raiders is that it's made of a heavier lambskin. Simple as that. (whale oil my...)

Dagda
05-23-2012, 01:45 PM
Whale oil. Yeah, if you look at the making of DVD and check out the Last Crusade documentary and watch the scene I was talking about with HF and the stunt man sitting next to one-another, it looks like the stunt man's jacket is made of the old run-of-the-mill non-distressed Wested Lambskin we've been seeing for years. Now, I must say that when watching the documentary I could detect the odor of whale oil. Sorry Platon. Facts are facts.

Returningson
05-23-2012, 03:54 PM
You need sources. Trust me.

I would approach this in the same way that Indygear did. Just a simple, linear writeup starting with the jackets origin, design, potential makers, etc. We dont need to do anything over the top. Just simple, straightforeword and readable.

crismans
05-23-2012, 04:41 PM
I think sources are great when we have them. Like many have said, we should approach this as any other research topic. Use primary sources when you have them, move to secondary and so on if you can't access the primary (and list these sources). If something is conjecture, state as such.

Patterson listed sources, but he used them to give his lies an air of authority. There is no documented proof that I know of that he talked to anyone (other than Peter, who dislikes him) that he claimed to.

PLATON
05-23-2012, 05:31 PM
we are wasting time talking about sources while we could be writing the story