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crismans
09-04-2010, 01:29 AM
For a jacket that might not even make an appearance in the film, there has been a lot of speculation about the jacket that appears in what I refer to as the Bantu Wind "still" shot. I'm talking, of course, about this jacket:

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/crismans_photos/mo_17.jpg

A closer view:

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/crismans_photos/Jacket_Dock1.jpg

Now, what do we have here? We have a jacket that has a lower yoke than any other jacket we see in the movie and one that appears to have different strap attachment points (going into the pocket). I'll be honest and say that I can't see the different attachment points clearly, but there are those who say they can.

There's been lots of speculation on what this jacket is. Personally, if Cooper did make a jacket for the film (and I have no reason at this time not to believe that), then I think this is it. It bears several features to the Temple of Doom jacket that has been long attributed to Cooper (the low yoke being the main one). More importantly, look at how closely it resembles the Blue Label jacket that Wings put out a couple of years ago (photo's are courtesy of Dr. Ulloa --I hope he doesn't mind that I'm using them).

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/crismans_photos/DougiesandUSWings002.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/crismans_photos/DougiesandUSWings003.jpg

The main features (yoke and anchor points) seem to match up well. Sgt. Hack said the jacket the Blue Label was based off was a stunt jacket that wasn't used (if memory serves) that Cooper gave to him. I always thought it odd that Cooper would give Hack a Wested jacket as a gift, but it makes sense that he would give him a jacket that he made.

Here' s pic of that jacket (the basis for the Blue Label):

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/crismans_photos/2831307594_463f01bf6b.jpg

Now, if the BW still jacket was a Cooper's, was it screen used? I would think that if it served as a Hero jacket, there's a high percentage that it was only in the Bantu Wind dock scenes (apart from the brief, odd appearance that Gunslinger and Neutronbomb are ferreting out). We can see whatever hero jacket is being used in the other scenes and none have this low yoke. There are a few caps of the BW dock scene that seem to indicate a high yoke there as well (I've, unfortunately, not save them--anyone else have them?) but this could be an illusion as they are blurry and dark.

I also think (and GS and NB have been working to bear this out) that this jacket might very well be the jacket that Terry Leonard uses during the truck drag sequence rather than the reported Wilson's. I can't find my copies of the photos of the Terry Leonard jacket so if someone could post them that would really help in comparing the jackets.

Thoughts?

RCSignals
09-04-2010, 01:35 AM
Do we have any other photo of the 'Bantu Wind' jacket? Any showing pockets etc?

The pleat of it and pleat 'vent' on the bottom really look like my first Wested Temple of Doom jacket that came with the wrong vent configuration.
Now if the Bantu Wind jacket has ToD sized pockets, maybe those of us with one of the early Wested ToD jackets now have a Bantu Wind replica?

neutronbomb
09-04-2010, 03:02 AM
I have one screencap that takes place within only one frame of the ENTIRE film that shows that particular jacket's strap attachment the most clear that it can be seen. I'll send it to Marcus Brody tomorrow. If anyone can find it and post it by Monday morning I'll paypal $50 to a vendor of Marcus Brodys choosing for a trivia contest winners gift.

Kt Templar
09-04-2010, 04:11 AM
Just to add a little stir. That BW jacket doesn't appear to have a hem stitch.

crismans
09-04-2010, 05:13 AM
Just to add a little stir. That BW jacket doesn't appear to have a hem stitch.


Good catch, KT. It doesn't appear to have a hem stitch (maybe indicative of a different maker than the other jackets?).

Don't know what that does to my theory with the Blue Label though. :-\

RCSignals
09-04-2010, 05:18 AM
My Temple of Doom jacket doesn't have a hem stitch either. ;)

Although while it looks like there may be no hem stitch on that BW jacket it's pretty inconclusive. That pleat detail is quite plain though!

PLATON
09-06-2010, 01:26 PM
It is simple why the Bantu jacket was not meant to be the 'hero' jacket. (although Deb Nadoolman distressed it herself and wanted it to be).

The answer is that the Bantu was the 1st jacket made, and all the jackets made later had distinctively different features, i.e. yoke seam, side straps...

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 08:17 PM
Here's the two best frames showing The Prototype/Bantu Wind jacket's strap attachment:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/th_DVDSnap1815.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1815.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/th_DVDSnap1814.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1814.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1814.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815-2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1814-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815-1.jpg

crismans
09-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Beautiful NB! I think things may just be a little more simple than has been made out to be.

Hypothesis: Cooper (or someone) makes this jacket which Nadoolman distresses just as she said. It's there for the BW still and certain other scenes but the Imam's and the, especially, Main Hero Jacket get the lion's share of the screen time on Ford's back as the production rolls on (we may never know the reason the change occurs). This jacket eventually becomes regulated to stunt duty, most famously in the truck drag sequence you've shown above.

Now, who made this jacket? My bet (with what we've got right now) is Cooper. This is based on what I've discussed above, concerning the Blue Label. Plus look at the vent construction. As RC has poined out previously, the construction is very Temple of Doomish.

Anyway, that's my hypothesis. I'm eager for others to prove or disprove it.

Thanks for working on this and starting the other jacket threads, NB! I think they are going to be fun and very instructive.

**Oh, and mods, if NB doesn't mind, and it would keep things cleaner, you can merge this thread into his prototype thread.**

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 09:12 PM
Tear in the leather??
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1812-1.jpg

Gunslinger
09-06-2010, 09:19 PM
I really don't think it was made by Cooper, Crisman. Nadoolman makes it very clear it was made in-house by Bermans. I think the reason why there are the similarities is the BW ended up in the archive and was thrown to the maker of the ToD jacket. Something for another thread, but is there even evidence THAT was made by Cooper?

crismans
09-06-2010, 09:45 PM
I really don't think it was made by Cooper, Crisman. Nadoolman makes it very clear it was made in-house by Bermans. I think the reason why there are the similarities is the BW ended up in the archive and was thrown to the maker of the ToD jacket. Something for another thread, but is there even evidence THAT was made by Cooper?



No, there is no direct evidence that Cooper was even around the production as far as I've seen. But, I think we need to allow for the possiblility as Nadoolman doesn't say that she knows for sure that it was made in-house. In the interview NB posted, she says that


And I don't know anything about the "Leather Concessions" because as far as I know Bermans gave it to, Bermans made it ...that's all I know, right?

So, while I don't subscribe to the "Nadoolman didn't have much to do with anything" theory that has been popular as of late, I have to allow that she wasn't there when it was made, so it could have been made by Cooper.

Another thing to add to the mix (and yes, I know you guys are sick of it) is that in their ads, Wings is very, very specific in that they made the actual jacket for Raiders of the Lost Ark. There was a lot of lawyerly headhunting going on pre-CS, so I have to think there is something to that claim in order for it to stand. If Cooper did make a jacket, I think the odds are great that it was this one.

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 10:07 PM
Let's not merge the threads crismans. I think this a great thread you've started to kick around these ideas and discuss these things you and others are interested in exploring. I'll use the other one to show features that match where I think it's used in the film. But, by all means explore what you want here in your thread.

The question I have regarding coopers role based on deborahs interview and getting the jacket from B&N is how likely it would be for B&N to have Cooper make the jacket that they then give to Deb.

Gunslinger
09-06-2010, 10:26 PM
Ok, how's this?

I'd momentarily forgotten about that legal stuff. However, what if Cooper helped Nadoolman WAY earlier, back in L.A. - before the Wilson's jackets. It seems so much more likely than Cooper just being there in the UK - she had zero money and zero time. Can you honestly read that transcroipt and see Lucas etc. springing for Cooper (who has NEVER been mentioned anywhere) to fly out from the states to make a jacket as profoundly quickly as that? No, it's far more likely they stretched themselves to have Bermans make one, that was then vaguely duplicated after Nadoolman left.

RCSignals
09-06-2010, 11:03 PM
Is there any evidence of this Lawyer head hunting other than discussion? I understand that Wings did change their Website and removed direct Indiana Jones reference though. they still don't really use it. Wings however does usually include a post card in shipments stating they made jackets for the original movie.

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 11:13 PM
Maybe it's in the way you say it. Original movie. Which original movie. And made jackets for (as in maybe submitted) or Harrison Ford wears on film the jacket we made for Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark.

crismans
09-07-2010, 02:30 AM
I can't remember the exact wording but it's pretty specific (and it's to Raiders of the Lost Ark).

And your theory may very well be the truth, Gunslinger, as you do bring up some good points. But Nadoolman never mentions Cooper in any interview I've read of hers. Now, if that refers to Cooper's lack of involvement or if she was unaware of his involvement, I'm not sure.

Even in my role of devil's advocate in this thread (one I'm not in very often! ;)), I'll allow that it makes more sense for the BW jacket to have been made in-house at B and N, then the jacket was copied by Leather Concessionaires or whomever (I'm betting LC). But the strong claims of Wings leaves room for doubt.

neutronbomb
09-08-2010, 08:41 PM
This has been floating around for 10 years describing a jacket that was examined by a fan and that specs of it were given to G&B for their Indy jacket development. I think it's pretty obvious it wasn't the main jacket(s) HF wears in ROTLA. The only chance of it being a screen used jacket is if it were the prototype/bantu wind/truck drag stunt jacket. Some of the items listed below don't appear to match though. Possibly an old Lee Keppler with the slit pocket description? Or more likely a Wested. KT do you know when Peter went to the slit pocket on the inside?

Posted on August 07, 2000 at 15:01:29:

"I was able to examination an original jacket from Raiders over the weekend. I examined the jacket as well as the documents certifying its authenticity. I brought along a Wested jacket for comparison, though after owning three, I think I could have done this from memory. Peter even dropped me a hint as to an item I might look for to verify it was one of his. Based on all that I had before me, I believe that this was an authentic article.

So here goes…

For the most part, the items we've been debating made up the bulk of the differences:

1.The leather used was noticeably thicker then that on my Wested.

2.This particular jacket had rectangular rings 1 inch by ½ inch, rather then the d-rings. They were painted black.

3.The straps were thicker and a bit wider. The thickness was due to the leather being three layers thick rather then two.

4.The straps were attached within the seam of the jacket, which runs a few inches from the hand warmer slit, i.e. they were not attached right next to the hand warmer slit as with my Wested. A reinforcing length of stitching ran approximately ¼ inch from the seam on the side towards the hand warmer slit. This stitching was through the outer jacket and through the part of the strap under the seam.

5.The rings were attached under the seam like the Wested, but were much more flush with the edge of the rear panel, i.e. they were barely visible unless the bi-swing pleat were opened.

6.Also, a very interesting thing was that the stitching for the ring attachment went through the rear panel. This could explain why sometimes it looks like the attachment is on the outside and sometimes on the inside.

7.The overall side strap attachment is slightly above the center of the hand warmer slit opening, NOT level with the bottom of the opening as with my Wested.

8.The length of the bi-swing pleat ran ½ inch above the attachment of the ring attachment to the rear panel. As such, the bi-swing pleat on the Wested needs to be appropriately longer.

9.One big surprise - there were gussets under the arms! This explains a particular fit problem I've always had with the Wested, i.e. you cannot move your arms around much without the entire body of the jacket moving with you. The gussets would fix this. They were made up of two panels, each ¾ inch wide. Together they were shaped like an elongated eye. They serve as a kind of pleat under the arm to allow arm movement without affecting fit or how the jacket hangs. Very interesting.

10.The collar attachment to the storm flap was correct in basic configuration, but the Wested is off in scale. The storm flap on the original was 3/4 inch narrower, and the collar band was only ¾ inch wide vs. 1 1/8 on the Wested. Other then that the collar dimensions were dead-on. Sorry, but the collar band did attach to the top of the storm flap, creating the "cap" to the storm flap - some have disputed this, though I cannot recall who. The resulting collar sat more flat against the jacket.

11.The bi-swing pleat was 1 ½ inches deep, vs. 1 inch on my Wested. The extra ½ inch makes a big difference in the appearance of the pleat.

12.The seam under the sleeve was lined up perfectly with the seam across the back of the jacket.

13.The inside pocket was a simple leather-bound slit, not the more elaborate configuration of my Wested. Actually, I really do prefer the more elaborate setup, but that's not the purpose here.

14.The lining was cotton - heavier then the cotton I have on my LC Wested. It was more like a lightweight denim-like material. The color was very close to my Wested's, however.

15.The cargo pockets were dead-on.

16.The zipper was the cheap aluminum type, with several teeth missing.

17.The jacket had two tears - one on each elbow. Quite probably the reason it was set aside from the production.

18.The color was a very deep brown - almost black in indoor light. Under bright light it did have a very subtle reddish hue.

I have drawings and measurements in note form. I'll put together some diagrams to try and clarify all this in the next few days.

Fun stuff!"



Here's the two best frames showing The Prototype/Bantu Wind jacket's strap attachment:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/th_DVDSnap1815.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1815.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/th_DVDSnap1814.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1814.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1814.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815-2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1814-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Stunt/DVDSnap1815-1.jpg

crismans
09-23-2010, 01:58 AM
Here's another little theory that people can feel totally feel to help bite the dust. Despite the talk from some quarters, it has been rumored that Neil Cooper is saying that he made his jacket out of a thick cowhide. I can totally see the BW still jacket being made out of thick cowhide. Maybe it proved too thick and the switch to lamb was made?

Of course, the new Wings jacket that is said to be true to Cooper's patterns doesn't resemble the BW jacket. So that raises the question of whether or not he made two jackets or some other pattern of events happened.