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neutronbomb
09-03-2010, 11:35 PM
« Last Edit: August 5, 2011 by neutronbomb »

This update finalizes where I believe The Imam Jacket is used in the movie. The only significant changes to the time stamps are removing the Jump the Pit Stunt with Martin Grace, Hawaii Temple Exit Dive, and Hovitos Chase/Swim the River from the Imam Jacket and adding them to The Prototype Jacket thread. However, The Imam Jacket is still used in part of the Temple Exit sequence, specifically where Belloq takes the idol from Indy and have updated the time stamp to show this as #7 below.

In order of appearance in the movie (In order filmed is Imam's House, Temple, Tunisia, Hawaii):

1. Hawaii Approach to Temple Entrance: 00:00 - 4:09 (Ford)
2. Temple Entrance/Spiders on Back: 4:09 - 5:11 (Ford)
3. "Stay Out of the Light" (Except for the last sequence of the scene titled: "Where Forrestall Cashed In"): 5:11 - 5:30 (Ford)
4. Out Before the Lock: 9:02 - 9:07 (Ford)
5. Dead Satipo: 9:07 - 9:21 (Ford)
6. Boulder Run: 9:21 - 9:38 (Ford)
7. Hawaii Belloq Confrontation (takes idol from Indy): 9:41 - 10:44 (Ford)
8. Imam's House: 46:38 - 49:28 (Ford)
9. Cab Fight Bullet Hole Forward/Truck Chase (With the exception of the "Through the Window", "Truck Hood/Grill", and "Truck Drag" stunt scenes):
1:26:21 - 1:27:15, 1:28:18 - 1:29:04 (Ford)
10. Truck Hood/Grille: 1:27:16 - 1:27:17, 1:27:19 - 1:27:30, 1:27:32 - 1:27:39, 1:27:42 - 1:27:42 (Ford)
11. Truck Drag: 1:28:05 - 1:28:07 (Ford)


« Edited: October 16, 2010 by neutronbomb »

Prequel: Fortune and Glory's Indiana Jones Jacket Write-Ups (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=492.0)

I maintain there were three jackets used in the Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark Film. I'll be attempting to show that this is so primarily in three different threads in Fortune And Glory's jacket section: The Imam Jacket, The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0), The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0). What I'll be doing is listing the scenes that feature each jacket, in their respective thread, and then showing feature(s) that identify each jacket uniquely and showing those feature(s) and how they appear in the scenes they are featured in.

This Imam Jacket thread is the first one of the three listed above for me to attempt to do this. I refer to it as The Imam Jacket because it was first used during film production in the Imam's scene which took place at Elstree. Please don't hesitate to offer feedback. I say The Imam IS..... THE JACKET..... used in the following scenes with the time stamps of the scenes the jacket is used in:

1. Hawaii Approach to Temple Entrance: 00:00 - 4:09
2. Hawaii Temple Exit Dive/*Hovitos Chase: 9:38 - jump in the river (The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0) possibly used in the Hawaii Plane scene)
3. Temple Entrance/Spiders on Back: 4:09 - 5:11
4. "Stay Out of the Light" (Except for the last sequence of the scene titled: "Where Forrestall Cashed In"): 5:11 - 5:30
5. Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt (Possibly The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0)): 8:38 - 8:39
6. Out Before the Lock: 9:02 - 9:07
7. Dead Satipo: 9:07 - 9:21
8. Boulder Run: 9:21 - 9:38
9. Imam's House: 46:38 - 49:28
10. Cab Fight Bullet Hole Forward/Truck Chase (With the exception of the "Through the Window", "Truck Hood/Grill", and "Truck Drag" stunt scenes):
1:26:21 - 1:27:15, 1:28:18 - 1:29:04
11. Truck Hood/Grille: 1:27:16 - 1:27:17, 1:27:19 - 1:27:30, 1:27:32 - 1:27:39, 1:27:42 - 1:27:42
12. Truck Drag: 1:28:05 - 1:28:07

*I'll likely be updating and moving the 'Hovitos Chase' sequence from #2 above to The Prototype Jacket thread.

I maintain that in each scene that The Imam Jacket is in, it is the only jacket featured in that scene. Same for the other two jackets. The exception is a few stunts where the stunt appears within a scene's framework. The jacket used primarily for these stunts is The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0).

Though there isn't much to go on visually, I currently lean towards The Imam Jacket for the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt: 8:38 - 8:39" and The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0) for the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt: 1:14:17 - 1:14:26". However, with the "Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt", it looks like The Imam Jacket on film, but The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0) in the promo picture and with the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt", it doesn't appear there's a full bi-swing and it looks like it has a lower yoke seam which suggests The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0), but possibly The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0) was in Tunisia during filming of the "Well of Souls Falling Statue Stunt"?

I feel it is fortunate that there is one feature of The Imam Jacket that is a dominant one, very easily seen, and that appears and shows itself in every scene where The Imam Jacket is featured, even in the heavy action sequences. The other two jackets used in the Raiders of the Lost Ark Film do NOT share this feature........ ever, at anytime. When it displays itself within each scene it is a unique identifying feature to The Imam Jacket specifically, we can identify it as such, and it opens up the rest of the features of The Imam Jacket in that scene for use as identifying features also.

So the first identifying feature from the jacket's (Harrison Ford's) perspective is the right side "Zipper Swoop". The way the top half presents especially and how when it's laying open it "swoops" in and then back out near the top. The Main Hero Jacket and The Prototype/Bantu Wind Jacket NEVER present this way.

For instance, look at this photo of one of theman's jacket and the shape his zipper makes. This is the feature I'm talking about. ONLY the zipper shape on theman's jacket. Used as a visual example for the "Zipper Swoop" I am talking about in regards to The Imam film jacket.
http://a.imageshack.us/img823/3350/todnowakfront.jpg


Now here is that zipper feature as it appears in every scene of the movie that The Imam Jacket is used in. Note that this is just to get us started and to try and lay out my presentation style and show a very common and easily identifying feature of The Imam Jacket and how it presents itself through the different scenes of the movie where The Imam Jacket is used. However, the collar shape, the way the collar behaves and appears and presents, the collar stand, etc. are also of course identifying features that can be used in conjunction with the zipper feature as part of the identifier. Again, this is JUST one of the identifying features of The Imam Jacket.

If you feel so inspired, please feel free to post others that you feel are also identifiers. I've spent a long, long time on this. I have a thousand or so individual frames saved. For over a year I've likely averaged at least a few hours every day analyzing them. Many days, much, much more. The only one I'm personally NOT a FULL 100% on is the Hawaii, but I do believe The Imam Jacket was used for the Hawaii scene and I'm still going to try and show it to see what everyone thinks as we progress through all of this. And there are some real difficulties that lie ahead. Optical illusions are a mess. A real.......mess. Seeing through them, taking them into account, and then explaining them is something I'll have to figure out as I go. I say this last paragraph to let you know that this isn't something I just slapped together and I wanted to put it out there for context and perspective. This represents well over a year of really hard work. But, it doesn't mean I'm right. Feel free to tear it apart. Attack the idea or the logic or the conclusions.

Below are screencaps of The Imam Jacket's "Zipper Swoop" identifying feature; identified by the name of the film scene it appears in:

Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/205-1-1-1.jpg

Temple Entrance/Spiders on Back:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Spiders/DVDSnap1234-1.jpg

Stay Out of the Light (note, this is not the last sequence of the scene titled: "Where Forrestall Cashed In" where The Main Hero Jacket is worn):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/DVDSnap1259.jpg

Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt:

It looks to me that the promo picture below is The Prototype Jacket that Martin Grace is wearing and the screencap of the actual film stunt is The Imam Jacket. I guess I'm either wrong on the identification of one of them or Martin Grace used The Prototype Jacket to practice with or something and then switched for the actual stunt on film. Note: In the promo picture Harrison Ford is wearing The Main Hero Jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/th_grace.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/?action=view&current=grace.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/grace.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Pit/DVDSnap1483-1.jpg

Out before the Lock:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1311-1.jpg

Dead Satipo: Total of 3 screencaps (with two hawaii's and an Imam sandwiched in between for comparison):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1439-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1936-1.jpg

Hawaii scene zipper gap compared to the two Dead Satipo photos above:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1916.jpg~original

zipper swoop comparisons between jacket worn in the Hawaii, Imam, and Dead Satipo film scenes:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1921.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/DVDSnap1935.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1323.jpg

Boulder Run:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1348-1.jpg

Bullet Hole Cab Fight Forward: The entire 2nd half of the Truck Chase Scene Starting with the Bullet Hole in the Arm:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/DVDSnap1834.jpg

Hawaii: (A quick note on the jacket used in the Hawaii scene. This may not represent the very best zipper swoop. However, it is to show that the jacket used in the Hawaii scene does present itself in a different way than just the collar laying flat and notice that the zipper also does lay open. Notice the jacket's right side collar is standing up and shaped and presents in the exact same manner as The Imam Jacket shown in the other scenes pictured above.)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/DVDSnap1444-1.jpg

Here's a better one showing the zipper swoop:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Entrance/DVDSnap1924.jpg

Nefarious
09-04-2010, 03:57 AM
http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/spotlight/bet-blog/assets/2009/05/iman.jpg

contributing to the thread :)

ohhhh......you mean Imam no? btw...."Imam" means wise man/elder....at least thats what my iranian employee tells me ;)

sorry NB.....head or gut? i'll take gut please.... ;D

faststreetsofhongkong
09-04-2010, 06:18 AM
[IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/205-1-1-1.



I love this jacket in the top picture at the Iman's, in it's relaxed state it hangs at just the right height (for my liking at least).

Would love to get a jacket just like this one one day ...

Gunslinger
09-04-2010, 08:01 AM
So far I'm on the same page with you, Bryan. ;)

neutronbomb
09-04-2010, 09:04 AM
Yeah well that's the easy part. ???

Gunslinger
09-04-2010, 09:54 AM
:D

So lay it on me, mate. 8)

neutronbomb
09-04-2010, 05:35 PM
Thanks Nefarious. Are you sure about the head or gut? I've a heard a nice, solid shot to the liver makes you rethink your whole life's plan :'(

PLATON
09-06-2010, 12:58 PM
It would help ifyou told us what do we see in each phoo (which feature of the jacket that is)

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Platon. Done. Please see the first post of this thread; I have updated it.

Raskolnikov
09-06-2010, 09:14 PM
It looks like we have some great threads coming up.
I always thought the Imam jacket was the Hawaii jacket too. I hope I'm not being a pest, cause I always come to this: I think I also see, all along the movie, different pleat depths in the Raiders jackets.
I'm too lazy to do some homework on my own (honestly, I feel overwhelmed when I see the amount of work this kind of thing needs... Wow), so I'll let you investigate it (maybe I should say, 'ask you to investigate it'), Neutron... That is, if you are also interested in this particular feature, of course.
Regards,
Rask

crismans
09-06-2010, 10:04 PM
I'm fully prepared to be convinced that the Imam's jacket and the Hawaii jacket are one and the same. In fact, I remember thinking the evidence for this was very compelling. I got away from this line of thinking when we were told that Cooper made his jacket out of calfskin. Since, Tony said that he had the Hawaii jacket (others who have spoken to him correct me if I'm reading too much here. Tony told me that if I wanted to see the jacket he had go to 3:23 in the film. I took him to mean he had that jacket.) and the shooting timeline spoke to the Imam's being the Cooper, I began to look elsewhere.

Now that this particular tale is in doubt, I'm revisiting this line of thought (much the wiser now) and think you guys probably have it right.

neutronbomb
09-06-2010, 10:57 PM
I just wanted to make a quick note that Gunslinger was referring to my screencaps above up until the last two scenes: Truck Cab Fight, Hawaii. I posted those last two after his post shown below, but today September 06, 2010 moved them up to my first post to show the visual sequence better.



So far I'm on the same page with you, Bryan. ;)

RCSignals
09-06-2010, 11:07 PM
I'm fully prepared to be convinced that the Imam's jacket and the Hawaii jacket are one and the same. In fact, I remember thinking the evidence for this was very compelling. I got away from this line of thinking when we were told that Cooper made his jacket out of calfskin. Since, Tony said that he had the Hawaii jacket (others who have spoken to him correct me if I'm reading too much here. Tony told me that if I wanted to see the jacket he had go to 3:23 in the film. I took him to mean he had that jacket.) and the shooting timeline spoke to the Imam's being the Cooper, I began to look elsewhere.

Now that this particular tale is in doubt, I'm revisiting this line of thought (much the wiser now) and think you guys probably have it right.


tony never actually used the term 'Hawaii jacket' he just referenced the time point the jacket he was given to duplicate first appears (Which happens to be Hawaii)
and yes now that the calfskin issue is cast aside it is possible the 'Hawaii' is also the Imam's since the jacket Tony had was lambskin.
Although there may be some small details of the Imam's that are different?


edited for spelling

crismans
09-07-2010, 02:34 AM
tony never actually used the term 'Hawaii jacket' he just reverenced the time point the jacket he was given to duplicate first appears (Which happens to be Hawaii)
and yes now that the calfskin issue is cast aside it is possible the 'Hawaii' is also the Imam's since the jacket Tony had was lambskin.
Although there may be some small details of the Imam's that are different?


That's a good distinction, RC. Tony never did say "the Hawaii jacket". That's the title we've worked out here. He said that if I wanted to see the jacket he had to copy, go to 3:23 in the movie.

The problem with examining the Hawaii jacket is that it is primarily viewed in shadow as well as a heavy coating of dust and cobwebs during the scene between Indy and Belloq.

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 01:07 AM
Updated my first post at the top of page 1 http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.msg4915#msg4915 (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.msg4915#msg491) with a couple of Hawaii's in the 'Dead Satipo' screencap area showing zipper gap and zipper swoop comparison's. Also added a Hawaii at the bottom.

Here's a look at HF's right jacket collar and collar tip shape in the Hawaii scene with how the edge of it hangs down and curves compared to the Dead Satipo, Out before the lock, and Imam's House which all feature The Imam Jacket:

Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/th_DVDSnap1941.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1941.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/DVDSnap1941.jpg

Hawaii Scene (Notice the zipper gap):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/th_DVDSnap1925.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1925.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/DVDSnap1925-1.jpg

Dead Satipo:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1938-1.jpg

Out before the lock:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Door%20to%20Exit/DVDSnap1937-1.jpg

Imam:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/DVDSnap1516-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Hawaii%20Dive/DVDSnap1925-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam/DVDSnap1550-1.jpg

Gunslinger
10-16-2010, 06:29 AM
So which jacket is this? Hero or not?

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-10-06-20h17m04s209-1.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-10-06-20h17m04s209-1.jpg)
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/vlcsnap-2010-10-06-20h17m04s209-1.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_vlcsnap-2010-10-06-20h17m04s209-2.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2010-10-06-20h17m04s209-2.jpg)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Raiders2010-03-22-20h54m20s73.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Raiders2010-03-22-20h54m20s73.jpg)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Raiders2010-03-22-20h52m10s47.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Raiders2010-03-22-20h52m10s47.jpg)

neutronbomb
10-16-2010, 04:41 PM
I have the time stamps for the Truck Grille sequence showing HF listed currently as #11 below in The Imam Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.0) thread. The stunt sequences with Leonard for the Truck Grille scene I have in The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0) thread.

From The Imam Jacket thread:
1. Hawaii Approach to Temple Entrance: 00:00 - 4:09
2. Hawaii Temple Exit Dive/*Hovitos Chase: 9:38 - jump in the river (The Main Hero Jacket possibly used in the Hawaii Plane scene)
3. Temple Entrance/Spiders on Back: 4:09 - 5:11
4. "Stay Out of the Light" (Except for the last sequence of the scene titled: "Where Forrestall Cashed In"): 5:11 - 5:30
5. Jump the Pit Martin Grace Stunt (Possibly The Prototype Jacket): 8:38 - 8:39
6. Out Before the Lock: 9:02 - 9:07
7. Dead Satipo: 9:07 - 9:21
8. Boulder Run: 9:21 - 9:38
9. Imam's House: 46:38 - 49:28
10. Cab Fight Bullet Hole Forward/Truck Chase (With the exception of the "Through the Window", "Truck Hood/Grill", and "Truck Drag" stunt scenes):
1:26:21 - 1:27:15, 1:28:18 - 1:29:04
11. Truck Hood/Grille: 1:27:16 - 1:27:17, 1:27:19 - 1:27:30, 1:27:32 - 1:27:39, 1:27:42 - 1:27:42
12. Truck Drag: 1:28:05 - 1:28:07

*I need to make note that I'll likely be updating and moving the 'Hovitos chase' sequence listed in #2 to The Prototype Jacket thread.


I'm planning on doing an analysis on The Imam and The Main Hero Jackets across the board, but it takes time. However, one of the things I notice is the collar and collar tip shape and the way it hangs. Check out PAGE 2 (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=478.15) in The Imam Jacket thread. Here's a side by side to take a look at though:

The Imam Jacket:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/Imam_grillecompare1-1.jpghttp://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/Imam_grillecompare3.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/Imam_grillecompare7-1-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/Imam_grillecompare6-1.jpg


The Main Hero Jacket is much different:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Chamber/DVDSnap1264-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--5-1.jpg

Here's the comparison of the difference in collars I did on page 1 (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0) in The Main Hero Jacket thread:
The cutoff portion of the text at the bottom is 'arrow shows "C" shape'.
Comparison Collage: The Main Hero Jacket ("Where Forrestall Cashed In") vs The Imam Jacket ("Stay Out of the Light"):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/th_DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/?action=view&current=DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg

Notice how HF's right collar in the WOS below and the Cab Fight screengrabs below matches The Main Hero Jacket as it's shown above in the 'Comparison Collage: The Main Hero Jacket ("where Forrestall Cashed In") vs The Imam Jacket ("Stay Out of the Light")'
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-WOS/DVDSnap117-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/DVDSnap1683-1.jpg



On a side note: I believe this is where The Main Hero Jacket is switched out for The Imam Jacket in the Truck Cab Fight Scene. The Main Hero Jacket is between the two Imam Jacket screengrabs for comparison. The Main Hero Jacket screengrab is taken right before the scene is cut. The very next sequence after that is of the actual bullet hole shooting scene and that is where I took the two Imam Jacket screengrabs. Notice how different these two jackets are. Also, with the collars being different.

click and then click again for 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/th_DVDSnap1716-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1716-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/DVDSnap1716-1-1.jpg

Gunslinger
10-16-2010, 11:20 PM
Ok, of course I HAD given a loaded question. ;) :D

It had been driving me nuts trying to match up this or that marker of this jacket vs. hero vs. Imams, etc. and was losing it. Especially the striation marks noted by HWJJ. Very similar. I'd noted the prounounced diagonal fold on his left sleeve cuff, and the other marks on his right yoke, among others, but wasn't getting anywhere. After looking at NB's markers that make me think it IS the Imams that's more probable, I've just been looking for others to connect it to, and have found them.

At this point I think we can say we've confirmed the Imams = Hawaii = Bullet Hole Squib = Truck Grille jacket.

So, notice the one big arm crease and then the smaller ones flanking it at the cuff. Notice the bullethole:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Truck-grille-arm-creasebullethole.jpg

Each of those creases is visible in the Imams scene; though they are hard to make out in the light - like many grabs, minor markings like this are always clearer if you go in slow-motion rather than just look at one frame.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Imams-arm-crease2.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Imams-arm-crease.jpg

And here they are in Hawaii:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-arm-crease-backpack-removal.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-arm-crease-cobwebs.jpg

I've brought up the bullethole in the Hawaii jacket before, but here are some clearer frames of it:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-bullethole-backpack-removal.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Hawaii-bullethole-cobwebs.jpg

This same jacket is also featured in the Truck Cab - it just has a slit in the arm at the point when he's being punched in the wound by the bad guy, not the full (explosion) ripped up arm; so they clearly shot that part first, THEN the arm blowing up, THEN the on the front of the truck stuff, then of course Hawaii, where they repaired the arm for that shoot.

So yet another of the world's great issues resolved. Now we just need to figure out global warming and solving world hunger.

crismans
10-17-2010, 02:29 PM
This is good stuff (for the OCD geeks that we all are!). I wonder if this couldn't be summarized in a sticky thread that we add to as we nail down stuff.

Gunslinger
10-18-2010, 10:22 PM
I just linked it to the Tracking Jackets thread. http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=8.msg6648#msg6648

neutronbomb
02-03-2011, 12:34 AM
Here's a couple more:

Inside left collar collar/collar stand fold near neck.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/hawaii_insidecollarfold1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_insidecollarfold1.jpg

Left inside sleeve:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/cabfight_Lwrist1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/stayoutoflight_Lwrist1.jpg

The Character
02-03-2011, 09:20 AM
I like the comparisons and it works except for the timeline.... the UK filming (Elstree) was done for the main interiors Hovitos Temple, Imams, Map Room, Well of the Souls straight after La Rochelle and before the Tunisia shooting which was then followed last by Hawaii ..... so none of those scenes in theory should show the bullet hole/squib mark ...... unless they put it in specifically for the timelines but it would not make sense to have it there for the whole of the shooting schedule in my mind as its only relevant to the last 1/5th of the movie .... However i thing the lower forearm crease is a dead giveaway and a great match.

Gunslinger
02-03-2011, 09:36 AM
It's tracking the one jacket that was used for Imams, then a little bit of the temple, then not again until the truck chase, when it was squibbed, and patched up for Hawaii. None of the pre-Tunisian appearances have the hole, but all share the same markers across all acenes.

PLATON
02-03-2011, 10:51 AM
Are you saying that the Imam jacket is the Hawaii jacket?

Gunslinger
02-03-2011, 11:29 AM
Yep, pretty much.

PLATON
02-03-2011, 03:02 PM
it crossed my mind too.
In that case there's three jackets only
the main hero, the imam and the prototype (bantu)

neutronbomb
08-05-2011, 04:23 PM
Here's what I've updated on the first post of this thread:


« Last Edit: August 5, 2011 by neutronbomb »

This update finalizes where I believe The Imam Jacket is used in the movie. The only significant changes to the time stamps are removing the Jump the Pit Stunt with Martin Grace, Hawaii Temple Exit Dive, and Hovitos Chase/Swim the River from the Imam Jacket and adding them to The Prototype Jacket thread. However, The Imam Jacket is still used in part of the Temple Exit sequence, specifically where Belloq takes the idol from Indy and have updated the time stamp to show this as #7 below.

In order of appearance in the movie (In order filmed is Imam's House, Temple, Tunisia, Hawaii):

1. Hawaii Approach to Temple Entrance: 00:00 - 4:09 (Ford)
2. Temple Entrance/Spiders on Back: 4:09 - 5:11 (Ford)
3. "Stay Out of the Light" (Except for the last sequence of the scene titled: "Where Forrestall Cashed In"): 5:11 - 5:30 (Ford)
4. Out Before the Lock: 9:02 - 9:07 (Ford)
5. Dead Satipo: 9:07 - 9:21 (Ford)
6. Boulder Run: 9:21 - 9:38 (Ford)
7. Hawaii Belloq Confrontation (takes idol from Indy): 9:41 - 10:44 (Ford)
8. Imam's House: 46:38 - 49:28 (Ford)
9. Cab Fight Bullet Hole Forward/Truck Chase (With the exception of the "Through the Window", "Truck Hood/Grill", and "Truck Drag" stunt scenes):
1:26:21 - 1:27:15, 1:28:18 - 1:29:04 (Ford)
10. Truck Hood/Grille: 1:27:16 - 1:27:17, 1:27:19 - 1:27:30, 1:27:32 - 1:27:39, 1:27:42 - 1:27:42 (Ford)
11. Truck Drag: 1:28:05 - 1:28:07 (Ford)

I've already updated The Prototype Jacket thread with the changes I mentioned above and will start getting some photos up on The Prototype Jacket thread hopefully in the next few days. As far as the Imam Jacket, I don't see any of the stuntmen ever wearing this jacket or The Main Hero for that matter. It seems the stuntmen all took turns wearing The Prototype Jacket for their stunts with Harrison Ford wearing The Prototype jacket for the Bantu Wind film scene as it was the only jacket available at that time and for the Hovitos Chase film scene.

For me, this raises a few questions. Why have Ford switch back to The Prototype Jacket for the Hovitos Chase film scene. Other than some type of logistics coming into play I can only think that possibly the dust coming off Indy's back as he runs may have something to do with it. Other than that, I'd of course be interested in knowing the reasons or thinking behind the decisions that were made of when Ford switches back and forth between The Imam and Main Hero jackets. For instance, why repair the bullet hole in The Imam Jacket for the Hawaii scenes it is used in rather than just wearing The Main Hero Jacket.

neutronbomb
09-04-2011, 06:02 PM
The comparisons I'm working on with The Imam Jacket's Right side collar stand/collar set-up matching up across the various time stamps I've listed for this jacket is coming along nicely. Hopefully, I'll be able to get these completed and posted soon.

In looking at the various Imam Jacket screen caps closely across all the time stamps I've listed for this jacket, I've developed a working theory for something else. The promo pics. This is just in progress for me as of yet, but here is what I am seeing and what I'm currently looking at in regards to the Rolling Stone Magazine Cover. For the jacket's right side collar setup, I'm looking at all the exact matching angles of: the zipper curving out, how the collar stand lies, the collar itself.

Click on the thumbnail and then click again for 100%.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/th_rollingstone_match1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/?action=view&current=rollingstone_match1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/rollingstone_match1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/th_hawaiientrance_Rcollarstand2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/?action=view&current=hawaiientrance_Rcollarstand2.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/hawaiientrance_Rcollarstand2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/th_RS346-RS-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/?action=view&current=RS346-RS-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/RS346-RS-1.jpg

neutronbomb
09-18-2011, 04:59 PM
This comparison is to show a connection of The Imam Jacket used in the HF truck drag, Hawaii promo pic, and Cab Fight/Truck Chase Part 2 (after/including the bullet hole) scenes. It focuses primarily on the exact same jacket's right side zipper swoop that the Cab Fight Part 2 jacket (HF) has, throughout the entire second half of the cab fight/truck chase sequence starting with and including the bullet hole/squibbing shot, with the HF Truck Drag jacket. I see other matches also, but I think that one pretty much jumps out, especially if compared to the collar set up shown over on The Main Hero Jacket thread. Also, the way the right side collar hangs down on the HF truck drag screengrab to my eyes looks nothing like The Main Hero Jacket's, especially in the first part of the truck chase/cab fight sequence before the bullet hole scene where they used The Main Hero Jacket before switching to The Imam Jacket.

I've always thought the multiple chest creases shown in the hawaii promo photo stood out so wanted to show a match with it to the jacket used in the cab fight/truck chase Part 2 sequence. Also, in addition to the multiple chest creases compare, check out how the jacket's whole left side collar stand, collar set up is an exact match.

HF Truck Drag = Hawaii = Cab Fight/Truck Chase Part 2 ( includes bullet hole/squib jacket). Future comparisons will also include the other scenes The Imam Jacket is used in, but wanted to get started with this one as questions regarding which jacket was used in the HF Truck Drag scene had recently come up. A couple of these screengrabs were originally Gunslingers I believe, so thank you Gunslinger.

click, then click again for 100%.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_ImamJacket_compare1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=ImamJacket_compare1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/ImamJacket_compare1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_HF_truckdrag3.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=HF_truckdrag3.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/HF_truckdrag3.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_cabfight_chestcreases2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=cabfight_chestcreases2.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/cabfight_chestcreases2.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_hawaiientrance_chestcreases1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=hawaiientrance_chestcreases1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/hawaiientrance_chestcreases1.jpg

PLATON
09-19-2011, 06:04 PM
The main hero jacket displays the 'demon roll'
please show the imam and main hero side by side to notice the difference.

thanks

Gunslinger
09-21-2011, 11:49 AM
Damn, Neutronbomb. I think you're right!

I went back and checked out the truck drag frame by frame, and found the shot I was thinking of, below. I think the truck drag is the Imam / Hawaii jacket. I had been basing my thoughts on it being the Main Hero on the droopy / curvy collar, but I think what confirms it as the Imams is the pocket flap shape. It heavily vibes the squarish shape of both the Hawaii jacket's pockets as well as the Nowak pockets in this photo. The Main Hero jacket's pocket flaps have more of an upward sweep.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Making-of-8.jpg

One thing Neutronbomb - check out the jackets in the cabin - there are shots there that have that scuffed up elbow / forearm as you see here. I think its the same jacket.

IMyourGDpartner
09-21-2011, 04:26 PM
I have questions on the Immam jacket. Continuity wise, as there is a person on set that worries about this stuff, theoretically the jacket that the hero used to film all the inside scenes on the soundstage should have been the same jacket. He was not doing anything inside that was overly strenuous, and if so, then the scene was completed by the stuntman (the temple pit jump and the WOS Egyptian statue ride). There seems to be a difference in the Ammam jacket and the one used in the Raven Bar-as you can see the horizontal striations on the right upper chest in stills. The Raven and Well of Souls exit looks like the same jacket, and it seems like the collar was not as wide, which was the way that Wested made their Raiders collars until recently. You would think that right after a scene was filmed, especially inside, that the jacket came off and immediately into the hands of the wardrobe person-reducing the chance of another jacket being used, his picking up a stuntman's jacket, stuff like that. Via the straight left side collar in the Hawaii still above, it is obvious that a new jacket was made and that artificial distressing was added in an attempt to make the jacket look old. The stiff collar proves it, ie that it was a new jacket that had been artifically distressed to look old, used, worn.

RCSignals
09-21-2011, 07:54 PM
Well, the jackets were made to look as if old from the start.
That was the idea.

neutronbomb
11-12-2011, 01:41 PM
I have questions on the Immam jacket. Continuity wise, as there is a person on set that worries about this stuff, theoretically the jacket that the hero used to film all the inside scenes on the soundstage should have been the same jacket. He was not doing anything inside that was overly strenuous, and if so, then the scene was completed by the stuntman (the temple pit jump and the WOS Egyptian statue ride). There seems to be a difference in the Ammam jacket and the one used in the Raven Bar-as you can see the horizontal striations on the right upper chest in stills. The Raven and Well of Souls exit looks like the same jacket, and it seems like the collar was not as wide, which was the way that Wested made their Raiders collars until recently. You would think that right after a scene was filmed, especially inside, that the jacket came off and immediately into the hands of the wardrobe person-reducing the chance of another jacket being used, his picking up a stuntman's jacket, stuff like that. Via the straight left side collar in the Hawaii still above, it is obvious that a new jacket was made and that artificial distressing was added in an attempt to make the jacket look old. The stiff collar proves it, ie that it was a new jacket that had been artifically distressed to look old, used, worn.


1.I have questions on the Immam jacket
So do I ;D

2. Continuity wise, as there is a person on set that worries about this stuff, theoretically the jacket that the hero used to film all the inside scenes on the soundstage should have been the same jacket.
Yes, logically that seems to make perfect sense. But for a variety of possible reasons (Like lost or damaged, etc. etc.), there could be a jacket switch. I personally believe there was a jacket switch by HF at Elstree which includes the Temple, Raven scenes, etc. There is a clear difference in jackets in the scenes I've outlined throughout the entire Temple sequence in the time stamps and photos I've shown earlier in this thread. For me, I have Zero doubt these are two different jackets. They are completely different and easy to spot throughout the Temple sequence.

I think the easy, logical if you will, answer would be that after they finished shooting the bantu wind scene in France with Ford in the Prototype Jacket, they then switched to the Imam jacket (because the prototype jacket was the only jacket made and available to take to France. Info taken from Deb interview) once they made it back to England to shoot the Imam scene and then continued using it to shoot (listed in no particular order as exact order is unknown to me) the Spiders, dead satipo, out before the lock, boulder run, and then the first half of the Stay out of the light scene, Where Ford waves his hand in the light. There is a scene cut there and then in the second half of that scene, "Where Forrestall Cashed In", where Forrestall shoots out at Ford on the wooden stakes, is where for some reason they then made the jacket switch to The Main Hero Jacket. They then used The Main Hero Jacket for the rest of the Temple sequences (Idol Grab, pit jump, Temple interior, etc) and then of course for the Raven, Well of souls, flying wing, and first half of the truck chase/cab fight sequence.

Here is where they made the jacket switch in the Temple sequence:
The cutoff portion of the text at the bottom is 'arrow shows "C" shape'.
Comparison Collage: The Main Hero Jacket ("Where Forrestall Cashed In") vs The Imam Jacket ("Stay Out of the Light"):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/th_DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/?action=view&current=DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Temple%20Light/DVDSnap130-1-1.jpg

3. He was not doing anything inside that was overly strenuous, and if so, then the scene was completed by the stuntman (the temple pit jump and the WOS Egyptian statue ride).
Yes, Martin Grace was used as the stuntman for the running pit jump in the temple scene and the falling statue stunt in the WOS scene. He wore the Prototype Jacket for these Stunts (All three of the Stunt men wore The Prototype Jacket for their stunt work). This is outlined and shown in The Prototype Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=501.0) thread.

4. There seems to be a difference in the Ammam jacket and the one used in the Raven Bar-as you can see the horizontal striations on the right upper chest in stills. The Raven and Well of Souls exit looks like the same jacket, and it seems like the collar was not as wide, which was the way that Wested made their Raiders collars until recently.
Yes, The Raven and Well of Souls (and Well of Souls exit) and Flying Wind and large part of the Temple and the first half of the cab fight/truck chase is The Main Hero Jacket. This is outlined and shown in The Main Hero Jacket (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=500.0) thread.

I personally believe the collar appears "not as wide" as you described because of the way the collar is folded over and presents in those shots. In other shots, the collar looks to me to have the same working dimensions of The Imam Jacket. In any case, it is a useful visual tool in telling the two jacket apart.

5. You would think that right after a scene was filmed, especially inside, that the jacket came off and immediately into the hands of the wardrobe person-reducing the chance of another jacket being used, his picking up a stuntman's jacket, stuff like that.
I firmly believe this is the case as there are several instances in the behind the scenes, making of, greatest stunts footage that show a wardrobe person directly handing the jacket to the actors, Ford and the stuntmen.

6. Via the straight left side collar in the Hawaii still above, it is obvious that a new jacket was made and that artificial distressing was added in an attempt to make the jacket look old. The stiff collar proves it, ie that it was a new jacket that had been artifically distressed to look old, used, worn.

I disagree and believe this to be incorrect. The Straight left side collar in the Hawaii stills exactly matches the jacket identified as The Imam Jacket starting from the Imam sequence and working through all the scenes where The Imam Jacket appears as outlined in the Time Stamps listed at the beginning of this thread and the many various photos shown with those listed scenes. The stiff collar does not "prove it" that the Hawaii jacket was a new jacket...... As the jacket identified as The Imam jacket in this thread has that same "stiff collar" as you described throughout the scenes it appears in and in fact is a direct match to The Imam Jacket. I also think many people forget that the jacket used in the Hawaii scene is also shown for about a full minute in the Hawaii Belloq Confrontation (takes idol from Indy). Between these two Hawaii scenes it is fairly easy to show they are the same jacket and The Imam Jacket.

More analysis to come on this jacket.

ParkerWhite
11-28-2011, 12:05 PM
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neutronbomb
11-28-2011, 02:03 PM
Hi ParkerWhite/Celebswear:

1. Celebswear is one of the worst types of cancers in the jacket community. Your company steals photos and descriptions of jackets from others and post them up on your site as if they are your own. Your company is well known as a rip-off, con-artist operation across the entire movie jacket community. In addition, you are stupid to a degree I have rarely seen to continue to push your products using such blatantly dishonest practices after being called out on it time after time after time. To greasy, greedy pigs like you, it just must not be any fun unless you pulled a fast one, eh?

2. Does Spamming really work for you? Seriously, Moron.

3. It was such a stroke of brilliance posting this in my research thread :crazy: :doh: :crazy:

neutronbomb
03-27-2012, 02:34 AM
Long time coming, but I'm getting there. Finished up a hand full of compares on this jacket and I'm a bit burnt. I have a few more to do to complete this post, but I'm going to put up what I have for those who are bored tonight to look at if they want. I'll fill in all the explanations and complete the post maybe tomorrow. But basically I believe Gunslinger was correct on the Harrison Ford Truck Drag being The Imam Jacket when he showed the Promo Picture. There's some more compares to do, but for what I have I used behind the scenes screen grabs of HF before, during, and after he does the Truck Drag Stunt. I also used a few from the film and then tried to tie as much of it together with scenes from The Hawaii sequence, Dead Satipo, Cab Fight Scene Part II/Bullet Hole Jacket, Imam, and out before the lock.

And also, don't stare at this stuff for too long. It does funny things to your brain. Kind of like playing pac man as a kid for 12 hours. And then you immediately go to read a book, but can't because your eyes keep going over the text and skipping all over on the page like their still following the pac man matrix.


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_imam_insidecollarfoldcompare.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=imam_insidecollarfoldcompare.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_insidecollarfoldcompare.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_imam_leftcollarspreadcompare.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=imam_leftcollarspreadcompare.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_leftcollarspreadcompare.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_imam_Rcollartipcompare.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=imam_Rcollartipcompare.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_Rcollartipcompare.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_imam_notchcompare.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=imam_notchcompare.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_notchcompare.jpg


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_imam_hingecompare.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/?action=view&current=imam_hingecompare.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/imam_hingecompare.jpg

Gunslinger
03-27-2012, 03:14 AM
Wow man. I don't know what you're talking about 12 hours. It did funny things to my brain within 30 seconds! :sheep:

I can't argue with any of that. Really cool. And then I was "wtf" with the bird, but then realized! Nice. Like how they've found people that can't navigate through those maze puzzles may be developing Alzheimer's.

neutronbomb
03-27-2012, 05:41 PM
Yeah, I probably should have explained about the bird. I forgot about it. After staring at the right side collar and collar stand of the Imam jacket I noticed it resemble the shape of a robin, a bird we had in our trees when I was a kid, with the beak fitting where the notch is. So I put it in the compare for fun. I told you it does funny things to your brain :crazy:

Anyway, I'll finish up this project with a few more compares and then I think the jacket identifications for the Raider film will be concluded. For me, there's no longer any doubt that only three jackets were used in filming the movie. In a way it's very sad how much horseshit COW put out regarding this over the years to convince people they were the go to source for information. Holt posted on film jackets how like 14 jackets were used in the film awhile ago. I guess they've painted themselves in a corner to keep beating the Patterson drum when it's been clearly shown he's a total liar. Everyone knows now though.

djd
09-22-2012, 09:04 PM
My favourite Raiders jacket. It definitely looks longer than the main hero....

djd
09-24-2012, 12:37 PM
Or, if not longer, it certainly seems to have wider shoulders. The main hero generally appears to have the shoulder seams sitting more or less on Fords shoulders. The Imam jacket in comparison has the oversized shoulders seen of the Wested Hero

TheExit148
07-18-2013, 02:27 PM
Here is the Hawaii/Iman jacket pictures.

Iman/Hawaii Jacket (http://imgur.com/a/VpEos#0)

- - - Updated - - -


Or, if not longer, it certainly seems to have wider shoulders. The main hero generally appears to have the shoulder seams sitting more or less on Fords shoulders. The Imam jacket in comparison has the oversized shoulders seen of the Wested Hero
Finally! I thought I was the only one that saw this. The Hero shoulders definitely aren't as baggy as the IMAN jacket. I think they look a little baggy because of how the jacket is constructed with that "off the shoulders" fall back which cause the shoulders to look droopy on the "HERO" while on the "IMAN" they are a droopier shoulder.

neutronbomb
07-18-2013, 02:46 PM
15 & 16 are of the main hero jacket (2nd pit jump right before out before the lock. Compare collar to #4 of your main hero photo album. Plus left collarstand of the jacket has the buttcrack crease per gunslinger). 28 is the prototype (running from hovitos into rope swing into river). 29 is likely the main hero (jacket in briefcase). 30, 31, and 32 is the main hero (all raven bar scenes is of the main hero).

I'm not convinced the imam is made wider in the shoulders than the main hero. To me they look the same and the way it is being worn makes either one look baggy in the shoulders.

Excellent job in capturing and posting all these pics and of the main hero too in your other post. Thank you.

indydude18
03-17-2015, 04:17 AM
Forgive me if this has been discussed before but I've just reread this entire thread and the "Shrunken Myth" thread as well and I did not find any talk on the subject. Is is just me or does the leather in the following picture appear to be smooth plain lambskin rather than the straited lamb? I know there's been extensive research on the Main Hero having been made from straited bubbly lambskin (I'm a believer), but in the following shot, apart from some well placed distressing, the jacket doesn't appear to have any ribbiness/striations/bubbles generally associated with SL.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark_25890501_zpsevkrkhex.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark_25890501_zpsevkrkhex.jpg.html)

neutronbomb
03-18-2015, 12:21 AM
I think the problem is much detail is washed out with many of these photos. So, this particular thread is to show where The Imam Jacket is in the film. Then, we can go to those scenes/appearances and check to see what different lighting, camera angles, etc. shows us.

Here are a couple of examples:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders2010-03-22-20h54m20s73.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/Unknown-11.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/RotLA-stembridge.jpg~original

indydude18
03-18-2015, 04:59 AM
NB, I have nothing but the upmost respect for you. Are you suggesting that I start a different thread to discuss the different types of leather used on the Raider's jackets?

neutronbomb
03-18-2015, 02:40 PM
No. There's already a thread going on that topic http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/109-ROTLA-film-jacket-leather

Feel free to jump into the quicksand with the rest of us ???

Mac
05-15-2015, 04:34 AM
Yes the Imam Jacket is the temple jacket

I’m intrigued by the zipper and collar evidence you gentlemen have offered up, but I do disagree with one assertion. I’m reasonably certain that the Hawaii/temple jacket is not the Imam jacket.

There is a straight and unbroken seam along the top of the Imam jacket collar stand, while it’s evident the Hawaii jacket’s collar attachment to the collar stand is somewhat crooked.

Here is a comparison of the Imam collar with two different hi-res close-ups of the Hawaii collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-1_zpsd2y2zpbd.jpg~original

Although the angles are somewhat different, it’s clear that the details of the collar to stand interface are dissimilar. The end of the collar stand on the Hawaii does not extend straight outward as on the Imam, and the collar seems noticeably bulky at the collar stand attachment, unlike the Imam.

The Hawaii close-ups are from larger versions of these two shots; they were not upscaled for the comparison, but were cropped from higher native resolution versions:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%201_zpscjot9ru7.jpg~originalhttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%202_zpsz4d9nr3c.jpg~original


Here is a different close-up shot of the Hawaii jacket collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20collar%20closeup%20-%201_zpscbl9bphd.jpg~original

And the Imam collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Imam%20Collar%20HD%20-%201_zpsppojsxtf.jpg

Mac
05-15-2015, 04:55 PM
A zipper gap comparison of the Imam and Hawaii jackets for the side opposite the storm flap:


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-%202_zpsiumrbliz.jpg~original

neutronbomb
05-15-2015, 05:19 PM
Hi Mac. Thank you for your posts. I really appreciate someone jumping in and giving a good hard look at my analysis on these identifications as I've only had myself to try and poke holes in it all these years.

Just a quick bye the bye, I haven't overlooked what you are bringing up or the photos and comparisons you are using. I have spent way too many hours even for a hobby poring over those very same issues and addressed and taken them into consideration

I am very confident that they are indeed the same jacket. But, the debate/discussion is very welcome. Even if it's only for others to have another persons input to consider.

I've posted all of my analysis that led me to identifying the Imam's jacket as the jacket used in the Hawaii scene you are referring to in your compares in the Imam jacket thread. I'll move these last two posts of yours and this one to that thread later today so we can continue the discussion and so that all of the compares surrounding the identification of the Imam jacket is in one place. Unless for some reason you feel it directly impacts the point and conclusion of this thread.

Oh. Also, gunslinger and I had a knock down drag out friendly fight about what you are bringing up in your last post in his Tracking jackets used in Raiders thread. You may be interested in checking those posts out too. I don't think I copied them over to the Imam jacket thread.

Mac
05-15-2015, 05:55 PM
NB, by all means move it to where it is most useful. I was hesitant to post it in this thread as it was, of course, off topic but it was tangentially related to identifying which jacket is in what scene. I know there is a separate thread on the Imam and I am familiar with it, but I was looking through my files for an uncropped version of the shot Platon originally asked about in this thread when I came across a couple of hi-res Hawaii photos and noticed the difference in the collar stand between it and the Imam, and felt it might have some bearing on the comparisons.

Kt Templar
05-15-2015, 09:20 PM
Mac the hawaii seems to not have a topstich... ie the collar is 2 pieces sewn together but minus the topstitch to finish interesting....



I’m intrigued by the zipper and collar evidence you gentlemen have offered up, but I do disagree with one assertion. I’m reasonably certain that the Hawaii/temple jacket is not the Imam jacket.

There is a straight and unbroken seam along the top of the Imam jacket collar stand, while it’s evident the Hawaii jacket’s collar attachment to the collar stand is somewhat crooked.

Here is a comparison of the Imam collar with two different hi-res close-ups of the Hawaii collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-1_zpsd2y2zpbd.jpg~original

Although the angles are somewhat different, it’s clear that the details of the collar to stand interface are dissimilar. The end of the collar stand on the Hawaii does not extend straight outward as on the Imam, and the collar seems noticeably bulky at the collar stand attachment, unlike the Imam.

The Hawaii close-ups are from larger versions of these two shots; they were not upscaled for the comparison, but were cropped from higher native resolution versions:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%201_zpscjot9ru7.jpg~originalhttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%202_zpsz4d9nr3c.jpg~original


Here is a different close-up shot of the Hawaii jacket collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20collar%20closeup%20-%201_zpscbl9bphd.jpg~original

And the Imam collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Imam%20Collar%20HD%20-%201_zpsppojsxtf.jpg

Mac
05-15-2015, 10:28 PM
I was hoping you would comment KT. That's what it looked like to me as well, but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about jacket construction techniques as you and I wasn't sure it was feasible to fabricate the collar that way.

crismans
05-16-2015, 01:40 AM
While I usually defer to NB on the jackets (I've spent a lot of time on these but not even in the same ballpark), but I think Mac makes a compelling case here. The end of the collar stand does appear different on these jackets as well as the end of the zippers.

Ram Man
05-16-2015, 02:35 AM
I have to agree that Mac presents a valid argument between the Hawaii jacket and the Imam.

IMO this is the Imam jacket as it closely matches Macs zipper compare so it was definitely used in the temple scene

http://www.retroland.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark.jpg

neutronbomb
05-16-2015, 02:56 AM
Different angles do show how the "zipper gap" works. Interestingly enough the hawaii collar screen grab below makes it appear to be one piece. The "missing top stitch" brought up previously is hidden in the crease where it is dark. The Imam with a slightly better angle and light showing into the crease reveals it. Seriously though, there's some really good stuff on the previous 4 pages also. Don't be frightened to comment on any of those posts or to consider there's more of the jacket to look at and that 2 dimensional angles and distortion ??? :swear: ???
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/The%20Imam%20Jacket%20-%20Right%20Side%20Collar/Imamrightcollarstand_compare1_zpsuwj9qlxg.png~orig inal

Gunslinger
05-17-2015, 11:11 AM
Ah yes, happy days... :)

neutronbomb
05-17-2015, 04:09 PM
Yes indeed :banghead: :toast: :banghead:

I'll look through your tracking jackets thread and copy over any posts that may relate.


Ah yes, happy days... :)

neutronbomb
05-19-2015, 02:53 AM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/The%20Imam%20Jacket%20-%20Right%20Side%20Collar/imamrightcollarstand_compare2_zpsfslysica.png~orig inal

Mac
05-19-2015, 04:36 AM
Another direct comparison of zipper gaps for the Imam and Hawaii jackets at high resolution. To the extent possible, both sides of the jacket are shown at similar angles.

It seems fairly clear that the Imam has lower zippers on both sides, while the Hawaii, comparatively, has higher zippers on both sides.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Imam%20vs%20Hawaii%20-%20Zipper%20Gaps_zps8ig7w18q.jpg~original

neutronbomb
05-19-2015, 06:10 PM
Are you definitively saying you believe 100% these are two different jackets? What's interesting is that I find what you show simply reinforces that they are the same jacket. We're using the same images to "clearly" show opposite conclusions.

Kt Templar
05-19-2015, 06:19 PM
Yes, I concur, they are clearly different jackets. Using reference images that are high enough res to to tell. The construction of the collar stand is very different.

neutronbomb
05-19-2015, 07:49 PM
Well..each to their own Indy_cheers




Yes, I concur, they are clearly different jackets. Using reference images that are high enough res to to tell. The construction of the collar stand is very different.

To be clear you concur with Mac that they are different jackets. I do not concur with Mac. I believe 100% they are the same jacket.

Mac
05-19-2015, 10:02 PM
I agree with KT that they are different jackets.


1. Collar/collar stand attachment seam appears different on each jacket, and, as KT pointed out, the construction appears to differ. In addition, the Hawaii collar to collar stand attachment point appears somewhat crooked and the collar 'jumps' over the collar stand; this is evident in multiple Hawaii shots. On the Imam the collar stand proceeds straight out and the collar aligns nicely with the stand.

2. The point at which the collar starts to fold downward is different. On the Imam the collar rises from the collar stand seam and then folds downward. On the Hawaii the collar folds downward beginning at the collar stand seam and there is no hint of a previous fold in the leather.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-1_zpsd2y2zpbd.jpg~original


3. The collars present differently. The Imam left side collar stands upright, while the Hawaii collar lays relatively flat.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Imam%20vs%20Hawaii%20Collar%20-%201_zpsv99hhtoa.jpg~original


4. The left side zipper does not behave the same on either jacket. On the Imam the zipper forms a wavy S shape and constantly reveals the inner lining. It does so without fail throughout the various shots of the Imam. On the Hawaii jacket the zipper never evidences the wavy S shape form (other than when the zipper undulates due to jerky movement), it continually hangs essentially straight down without revealing the liner.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Imam%20vs%20Hawaii%20Zipper%20Hang_zpsefjmkqyy.jpg ~original


5. The zipper gaps do not match. The Imam zipper terminates lower below the collar stand, while the Hawaii zipper terminates closer to the collar stand. Most who have weighed in on this subject have agreed that this appears to be the case.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-%202_zpsiumrbliz.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Imam%20vs%20Hawaii%20-%20Zipper%20Gaps_zps8ig7w18q.jpg~original


One may discount some of these discrepancies for various reasons, but taken together they are compelling and strongly suggest that the Imam and Hawaii are different jackets.

Ram Man
05-19-2015, 11:10 PM
I hate to rub salt into the wound NB but I have to go with the evidence presented. Mac provides a compelling case. There also appears to be some distressing on the left collar stand of the Hawaii jacket that I don't see on the Imam. The zipper clearly goes to the bottom of the collar stand on the Hawaii jacket whereas it does not on the Imam. That's a structural issue that can't be changed with a sagging collar...maybe there's a 4th jacket....??? Also noticed how the edge of the left pocket on the Hawaii jacket is turn outward near the storm flap.

neutronbomb
05-20-2015, 02:06 AM
It's ok Ram Man as there's no wound to rub salt in. I pored over all these exact same photos, images, and references that Macs discussing for months 5 1/2 years ago and still spend I'd say 2 to 3 hours a week analyzing various things that interest me. What Mac is pointing out bothered me at first also. Gunslinger and I argued all these same points in his tracking jackets thread.

I have screen grabbed every single frame of Raiders where the jacket is worn that shows something that might be useful. But anyway, they're the same jacket. Period. It's so obvious to me now that it hurts. But, that's not the point. If I come across something or find something to undo the entire jacket matching in a multiple of ways, then I'll be happy to change my point of view. It's not like I have anything vested in whether they're the same jacket or not. For me it's like some people that like to do crossword puzzles. Something to figure out. Finally seeing through the optical illusions and distortions created by 2 dimensional camera angles and the poor image quality is rewarding in and of itself.

I'll post more stuff and the debate is fun. But everyone's entitled to their opinion and free to share it. Like I said before, Mac's input is appreciated as it gives people other perspectives in order to make up their own mind about what they see. And then also maybe they'll feel like joining in also like you just did. It's not important that anyone's in agreement with my take or not. It's the fact that there's discussion that makes for a vibrant thread and site and that makes it better for all of us.

Ram Man
05-20-2015, 03:40 AM
Well said Indy_cheers

IMyourGDpartner
10-10-2015, 05:08 AM
One variation could be explained by the fact that the Imam scene was supposedly filmed first inside Elstree. The jacket would have been new. The Hawaii scenes were filmed last, in terms of the jacket. More distressing could have been, and looks as though--was put into the jacket between the first and last. The Hawaii collar lays flat, the Hero had the wonky collar, wrinkles around the right pocket and the striations.

neutronbomb
02-02-2016, 03:49 AM
So it looks like we'll be adding a new jacket #4. The Hawaii Jacket. First, a thank you to Mac for diving into this and pointing out these differences. I looked back through the thread and my previous work, but really Macs compares pretty much tell the story. So I clocked some hi-res screen capture time and now agree that The Hawaii Jacket is a separate 4th jacket that's been identified so far for Raiders. I should also give props to Gunslinger who also pointed out the zipper gap differences and argued The Hawaii Jacket was not the Imam jacket back in his tracking jackets thread many, many moons ago. What can I say, the similarities between the two stole my heart.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut_zpsqqz1pwlv.jpeg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut_zpsqqz1pwlv.jpeg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut_zpsqqz1pwlv.jpeg~original

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut2_zpsltgbbweq.jpeg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut2_zpsltgbbweq.jpeg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut2_zpsltgbbweq.jpeg~original

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut3_zps2cl1wjux.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut3_zps2cl1wjux.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut3_zps2cl1wjux.jpg~original

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut4_zpsdhjbtu0n.jpeg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut4_zpsdhjbtu0n.jpeg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut4_zpsdhjbtu0n.jpeg~original

???
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut5_zpsbpd9ontn.jpeg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut5_zpsbpd9ontn.jpeg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut5_zpsbpd9ontn.jpeg~original

Bottoms up :drink:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_yeahbut6_zpsnetycmn7.jpeg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut6_zpsnetycmn7.jpeg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/yeahbut6_zpsnetycmn7.jpeg~original


Here's a compare I put together in addition to Macs work.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_brjacket_compare1_zps3s9fwpau.png (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket_compare1_zps3s9fwpau.png.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket_compare1_zps3s9fwpau.png~original


Also, Does this look like a one piece collar stand like The Prototype/TOD:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg~original

Ram Man
02-02-2016, 02:18 PM
Such humility ;D

Mac
02-03-2016, 09:18 PM
Glad we’re on the same page now, NB. :) Indy_cheers

neutronbomb
02-03-2016, 09:42 PM
Thank you for your help :toast:

Might be another 1 or 2. The bullet hole jacket and the promo. Still looking...??? Indy_dead_horse

Indiego Jones
02-04-2016, 01:39 PM
So....which jacket do you think TN had in hands???

neutronbomb
02-04-2016, 03:40 PM
No idea. Most say it was the Hawaii jacket, however to my knowledge Tony never said specifically. He mentioned in a post to check out a time place in the film to observe the leather which is the Hawaii scene. People read that as Tony saying it was the Hawaii jacket.

In any case, I believe that it's been shown pretty effectively in order to get Specific texture visual matches both Ribby Merino and shrunken lamb are good choices. One jacket I had from Todd's that was and now is again Crismans jacket was very, very good. Understated Ribby and shrunken lamb blend.

On really close examination of what I can see on screen with all the jackets, there seems to be universal properties of merino that I just don't see anywhere at all. But if you just have to have a form of rib marks on the right chest panel in the proper place like the main hero, then Ribby will certainly do that.

Indiego Jones
02-04-2016, 04:58 PM
No idea. Most say it was the Hawaii jacket, however to my knowledge Tony never said specifically. He mentioned in a post to check out a time place in the film to observe the leather which is the Hawaii scene. People read that as Tony saying it was the Hawaii jacket.

In any case, I believe that it's been shown pretty effectively in order to get Specific texture visual matches both Ribby Merino and shrunken lamb are good choices. One jacket I had from Todd's that was and now is again Crismans jacket was very, very good. Understated Ribby and shrunken lamb blend.

On really close examination of what I can see on screen with all the jackets, there seems to be universal properties of merino that I just don't see anywhere at all. But if you just have to have a form of rib marks on the right chest panel in the proper place like the main hero, then Ribby will certainly do that.

I think I got it.
The jacket Tony Nowak examined, and replicate was the IMAM scene.
Tony said he copied stitch by stitch the screen-used jacket.

The TN Raiders jackets have the same collar stand configuration as in the IMAM's jacket.-

Ram Man
02-04-2016, 06:32 PM
Thank you for your help :toast:

Might be another 1 or 2. The bullet hole jacket and the promo. Still looking...??? Indy_dead_horse

I am thoroughly convinced that the Imam jacket and the promo jacket are the same based on this thread http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/1562-Is-this-the-main-hero. There's no doubt in my mind!

neutronbomb
02-04-2016, 10:13 PM
yeah but..this bothers me bad if we propose the Imam jacket is the promo jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/th_behindscenes_compare9_zpsirmcv1t5.png (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/behindscenes_compare9_zpsirmcv1t5.png.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20promo%20pics/behindscenes_compare9_zpsirmcv1t5.png~original


And if we consider the promo jacket is the Hawaii jacket, then it does have the top stitch on the collar stand KT and Mac were talking about the Hawaii missing and also that the right side collar stand that looks like it's one piece as part of the collar (which they can't both be incidentally) is also invalid. I guess the image, angle, and image quality may be poor enough on the Hawaii to give the illusion that it's missing the top stitch on the collar stand or that the collar stand and collar are one piece.


Mac the hawaii seems to not have a topstich... ie the collar is 2 pieces sewn together but minus the topstitch to finish interesting....



I’m intrigued by the zipper and collar evidence you gentlemen have offered up, but I do disagree with one assertion. I’m reasonably certain that the Hawaii/temple jacket is not the Imam jacket.

There is a straight and unbroken seam along the top of the Imam jacket collar stand, while it’s evident the Hawaii jacket’s collar attachment to the collar stand is somewhat crooked.

Here is a comparison of the Imam collar with two different hi-res close-ups of the Hawaii collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Hawaii%20vs%20Imam%20-1_zpsd2y2zpbd.jpg~original

Although the angles are somewhat different, it’s clear that the details of the collar to stand interface are dissimilar. The end of the collar stand on the Hawaii does not extend straight outward as on the Imam, and the collar seems noticeably bulky at the collar stand attachment, unlike the Imam.

The Hawaii close-ups are from larger versions of these two shots; they were not upscaled for the comparison, but were cropped from higher native resolution versions:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%201_zpscjot9ru7.jpg~originalhttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Hat%20amp%20Jacket%20SMALL%20-%202_zpsz4d9nr3c.jpg~original


Here is a different close-up shot of the Hawaii jacket collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20collar%20closeup%20-%201_zpscbl9bphd.jpg~original

And the Imam collar:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/Raiders%20Imam%20Collar%20HD%20-%201_zpsppojsxtf.jpg



....
Also, Does this look like a one piece collar stand like The Prototype/TOD:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/th_brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Imam%20Jacket/brjacket08.2_zps5wmqrcjs.jpg~original

crismans
02-10-2016, 02:36 PM
Okay, I've been doing a lot of reading this morning (and looking at enough screen grabs to make my eyes blur :) ), so I'm pretty dense right now, I admit. So, NB, do you care to clarify what is bugging you in your post above? To me, the jacket on the magazine cover (Rolling Stone, I think?) and the Hawaii jacket are two different jackets. The collar stand construction appears to be very different. Yes, I understand that lighting, filters, etc., can alter the image somewhat, but it seems pretty clear that the construction isn't the same (nice catch KT and Mac, by the way).

And just to clarify, the consensus is that the Hawaii jacket is the Raiders prototype that was also used in ToD? The collar stand construction appears to be very similar to what we saw in ToD.

Sorry if I'm confusing the issue in my quest for understanding!! ban-llama

neutronbomb
02-11-2016, 06:59 PM
Just to clarify. The photo I posted with the magazine cover compare is with the Imam jacket, not the Hawaii. I fixed the compare to identify the jacket as the Imam Jacket and updated the wording in the post to clarify. I was pointing out that the magazine cover promo photo has the zipper end placement right at the collar stand while the Imam's is further down from the collar stand so it makes it difficult to resolve in order to say the magazine cover jacket is the Imam Jacket. That's what bothers me about it.

Even though the Hawaii jacket matches very well with the Imam jacket in many ways, it does appear from the zipper end placement at the collar stand that they can't be the same jacket. So maybe the Hawaii jacket is the magazine jacket. But if the collar stand construction is different, then that's also a no go. Maybe there's some optical illusion, bad angle going on, or something that just makes it appear the construction is different. We'll have to examine different screen grabs from the film to see if that can give more insight.

I don't know what the consensus is, but IMO the hawaii jacket is not the prototype jacket because of the bi-swing, yoke size amongst other differences. The prototype is what I think was used in TOD.


Okay, I've been doing a lot of reading this morning (and looking at enough screen grabs to make my eyes blur :) ), so I'm pretty dense right now, I admit. So, NB, do you care to clarify what is bugging you in your post above? To me, the jacket on the magazine cover (Rolling Stone, I think?) and the Hawaii jacket are two different jackets. The collar stand construction appears to be very different. Yes, I understand that lighting, filters, etc., can alter the image somewhat, but it seems pretty clear that the construction isn't the same (nice catch KT and Mac, by the way).

And just to clarify, the consensus is that the Hawaii jacket is the Raiders prototype that was also used in ToD? The collar stand construction appears to be very similar to what we saw in ToD.

Sorry if I'm confusing the issue in my quest for understanding!! ban-llama

crismans
02-12-2016, 03:05 AM
Got you! I told you I was feeling dense because I should have realized you weren't saying the Hawaiian jacket was the prototype because of the larger yoke panel, which I don't believe the Hawaiian jacket has. I need to read back through because I seem to remember that there was some discussion that there might have been a jacket used primarily for photo ops. Is this the case? If so, it would seem the jacket on the Rolling Stone cover would most likely be that jacket.

neutronbomb
02-13-2016, 12:47 AM
Crismans, I don't remember any discussion regarding that, but maybe. I'm thinking all the promo photos we've been trying to figure out could very likely be a separate jacket. To me it most closely resembles the Hawaii Jacket. But, there's still issues.

Speaking of the Hawaii Jacket. You mentioned the collar stand construction appears to be very different. Can you elaborate on what you mean. You thanked KT for something, but the only thing I see he posted about was the collar stand appears to be missing a top stitch, when it has it on the other side. Which as is typical he choses to ignore.

crismans
02-18-2016, 01:38 AM
Actually, I believe I was tricked by the lighting of the picture I was looking at. If you look at the temple scene that you spliced with the Rolling Stones cover, the right (as we're looking at the picture) side of Indy's collar stand doesn't appear to have the extra sewn strip of leather. It looks more like the ToD collar stand construction. But, if you look at the left side, it does appear to be the Raider's collar stand construction.

Just a good lesson not to think too much in the morning and to not just pay attention to one picture!