PDA

View Full Version : The Long Back..Strikes Back!



neutronbomb
08-31-2010, 11:00 PM
Optical Illusions: The Long......and the Short of it. Same scene. Same jacket. No cuts. Caught my eye as it magically transformed from long to short.

long
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1429.jpg

short
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1431.jpg

long
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1430.jpg

PLATON
09-08-2010, 08:52 AM
Please restore the images.

I am guessing this is Imam's scene?

neutronbomb
09-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Ok. I don't know why the links were broken. Really weird. But, they're back up Platon. I know that this is something that you are interested in discussing as I believe I remember reading a reference somewhere that I think was credited to Noel saying Peter made some jackets for Raiders that were longer and since then the search has been on to find them in the movie.

My current opinion is that there were only three jackets used on film and throughout the majority of the movie the back length lands pretty much right around the top edge of the back pocket flap with the way the pants fit HF etc. A few centimeters here and there due to movement. I've never been a fan of customers trying to get SA jackets made by basing the length on where it hits their pocket flaps or their belt buckle or whatever as the style of pants, how they wear them, and their body type can vary so much. Fit your body not your clothes so to speak are my thoughts on that. But, for seeing where the different jacket(s) hit on HF and taking into consideration movement and shifting around of the jacket and clothes and everything, I think it's ok to consider these things because if it's consistently at or around the top edge and slightly below the top edge of the back pocket flap vs. way, way up above it or way, way down below it, I think it at least gives us a reference point.

So the three screengrabs I posted above are set up a bit out of order. There are no cuts or anything. Same scene. The sequence is the one on top and the one on bottom are before the middle one. However, I wanted to be able to show the comparison easily so I sandwiched it between the two. Plus, I wanted to show a shot where the longer appearing one hits the pocket flaps about where the shorter one does.

What really struck me about this scene is I was watching it in slow motion and suddenly when he hangs the whip it shortened. Practically gave me whiplash.

PLATON
09-08-2010, 06:03 PM
Ha ha
Great shots.

An illusion? Different jackets? We'll never know.


This is the back I want for my jacket

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1430.jpg

PLATON
09-08-2010, 06:10 PM
There's another illusion (or other jacket) at the Imam's scene.
The pocket flap suddenly changes completely.

If you can make the scree grab, maybe we can compare.

Kt Templar
09-08-2010, 06:15 PM
I don't see why people find it so odd. Lift your arms and the body will be pulled up. Same as sleeves being shorter when you raise your arms and stretch them out, d'oh!

The Character
09-09-2010, 12:02 AM
plus 'hoik' your pants up or let em slide down and the length will also magically change .... Bearing in mind the dysentery and heat in Tunisia if you look at Ford in those scenes he's clearly leaner and i guess his pants were belted tighter?

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 01:31 AM
I think you guys read me wrong. I'm talking about looking at the jacket itself. Forget where it's position is. Just look at how much more elongated the jacket looks vs shorter it looks. Block out everything else about HF but the jacket. If you look at just the jackets in one picture it looks long and skinny and in the other it looks wide and short. I think this may be a camera angle optical illusion. That's what I was trying to show.

And as an emphasis on it I was trying to show that in the one where you can see the top of the back pocket flaps in those two specific pics separated by 15 frames with no cut, both the skinny elongated one and the wide short one are at the same spot.

Gunslinger
09-09-2010, 02:49 AM
Ok, I'm with you Bryan. Yes, it's funny isn't it - you could swear they're 2 different jackets by comparing the first shot to the second. Almost looks like there could be 2" difference in back length.

Coincidentally enough, Platon, it's that exact moment you are noting here that I used to measure how long it wanted MY jacket. ;)

There simply aren't that many moments where you get a clean, measurable length where the front and/or back length is relatively uncrumpled. There's another shot where he's running around the wing with his arm extended - just before the "bloodied lip" shot IIRC.

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 03:12 AM
Yes, that's what I guess I didn't say. They're of the same jacket. It's a 2 second sequence with no cutaways. And in the where he's sideways it looks like the bottom of the jacket is at his elbow even though that's unlikely. We're looking at one jacket and it's The Main Hero.

PLATON
01-24-2011, 03:38 PM
http://indyville.fi/elokuvat/kam/kuvakaappaukset/

Hawaii jacket. Don't let me hear anything about this again. TN 23 inch can't be right.

PLATON
01-24-2011, 04:10 PM
How do I edit this?

anyway here's the link

http://indyville.fi/kuvat/hd/kam/24.jpg

RCSignals
01-24-2011, 05:11 PM
yet, like the pockets, it is :whip:

neutronbomb
01-24-2011, 05:44 PM
Here's the Image Platon was trying to get up:

click on thumb and then click again for 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_hawaii_backlength1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=hawaii_backlength1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/hawaii_backlength1.jpg

neutronbomb
01-24-2011, 06:24 PM
I remember we were discussing this issue in the Optical Illusions: The long and the Short of it (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=450.0) thread Platon:



Same scene. No cuts. Caught my eye as it magically transformed.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/th_DVDSnap1429.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1429.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1429.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/th_DVDSnap1431.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1431.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1431.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/th_DVDSnap1430.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/?action=view&current=DVDSnap1430.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1430.jpg


Here's a comparison of The Main Hero Jacket illusion photo to the Hawaii screengrab you are referencing:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Long%20and%20Short/DVDSnap1429.jpghttp://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/hawaii_backlength1.jpg

Kt Templar
01-24-2011, 06:48 PM
There is no magic here.

If you lift your arm(s) the back will go up.

If you bend over the back will go up. (ie on the wing of the flying wing).

The way to see where it falls is a static normal upright stance. Exactly as he is in front of the waterfall.

I don't get how intelligent people find such a basic concept so hard to understand.

neutronbomb
01-24-2011, 08:16 PM
Me either KT.

Because in my temple pit jump comparison photos I'm seeing it hitting around the same spot on the pocket flap and in the one where it looks shorter one arm is straight down and the other bent at the elbow. Plus I think you missed the comparison was of the sideways one compared to the OTHER two which is why I placed it in the middle. Additionally, I've never seen you comment on these ones from the raven bar which is the same jacket I just previously showed at the pit jump. I guess he's touching his toes in these ones below. So I guess it always boils down to what it is an individual would like to see because there's a screengrab that'll probably show it.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/DVDSnap1154-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/DVDSnap1156-1.jpg

Oh and how can I forget how far gunslinger was bent over with his arms raised in this:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Temple-Back-Length-on-159-888-1.jpg

which isn't so much different than this:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1963.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1952.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1948.jpg

Zip this up and it'll probably fit like the ravenbar photos above and notice how this particular screegrab does a better job of giving us a more even and straight shot at the jacket length in the front and doesn't make the jacket look so unbearably long. He straightens up and I bet we lose another inch:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1943.jpg

Not that much different than the static picture of the hawaii jacket. Sits at just about the same spot. Unzipped like in the Hawaii I can get my jackets to vary a few inches up and down in the back all over the place. Interesting there's so much collar showing in the "static waterfall" photo.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Imam%202/DVDSnap1968.jpghttp://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/hawaii_backlength1.jpg

Kt Templar
01-24-2011, 08:59 PM
There is also the other issue of where the trousers are sitting on him at the time. Between fully pulled up and belted, and slouched you can have a BIG difference.

The 1st pic of Ford released for CS really shows this well as the trousers were really hitched up. So the jacket looked really long. in the movie it isn't 'that' bad.

Gunslinger
01-24-2011, 11:31 PM
Yeah, the arse is important. Proximity to your arse cheeks is the only indicator at the back - not the pocket flaps or anything.

Here's the way I see it. Tony said that the jacket he measured was the same height front and back. So, put simply, if you get the front so that it hits you in a spot that matches the movie, then the same-lengthed back should do the same if Tony's measurements were correct. Actual measured height of either the person or the jacket has nothing to do with it, btw - its about front to back proportion.

Thus - and sorry to keep throwing my mug up - whether I raise my arms or not, the proportions Tony gave us when measuring the Hawaii jacket result in a jacket that hit exactly how it should, back length-wise:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Back-Length-on-159-888.jpg

Or side on:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Temple-Back-Length-on-159-888-1.jpg

Or front-on:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raven-31-888-Comparison-mid-1.jpg

RCSignals
01-25-2011, 01:43 AM
There is also the tendency of this jacket because of it's cut to 'fall back' off the shoulders, effectively making that original 23" more like 24" where it lays naturally.

It is a short jacket. Purposely so as has been discussed many times.
The original was 23". It wasn't 'shrunk' with age. "shrunken lamb"which the jacket was made of, per Tony Nowak actually s t r e t c h e s.

The key isn't to focus on the measurement of the original it is to determine the correct measurement for the jacket to fall on the correct spot for each individual.

neutronbomb
01-28-2011, 02:59 AM
I think you may have been chasing ghosts Platon. I'm not really seeing a significant difference in length between The Main Hero Jacket and The Imam Jacket.

Here's a few more of the jacket worn in the Hawaii scene. I believe this jacket is The Imam Jacket. I think how long the jacket appears varies with camera angle, shifting of the body, shoulders, etc. I think these are pretty static. Same jacket, the picture you are talking about is in the middle for comparison.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/hawaii_backlength2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/hawaii_backlength1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/hawaii_backlength3.jpg



You've seen the zipped up raven bar photos of The Main Hero I posted earlier. Unzipped, It looks to me like The Main Hero Jacket is about the same as The Imam Jacket. The Main Hero Jacket top and bottom. The Imam Jacket in the middle for comparison purposes.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/temple_frontlength1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/imam_frontlength1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/pit_frontlength1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/imam_frontlength1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/temple_frontlength2.jpg

Now before you start jumping up and down and shouting how that last photo shows The Main hero jacket length is even with the bottom of the sleeves, look at this. Same jacket. Angles, two dimension, where the jacket rides on the shoulders, fractional leaning, all are likely at play.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/temple_frontlength2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Raven%20Bar/DVDSnap1154-1.jpg



Here's a Main Hero Jacket photo that's about the same type of shot as the hawaii photo you mentioned. Looks the same to me.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/th_pit_backlength1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/?action=view&current=pit_backlength1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/pit_backlength2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20COMPARE%20-%20Length/hawaii_backlength1.jpg

djd
01-28-2011, 09:26 AM
I've always found this particular measurement a source of some personal confusion. I'm six foot and my jacket is 26 at the back. On me, this seems to come to the right point. 23 would be on my belt like a bomber jacket. I'm not saying the measurements on wrong but I couldn't get that to work on me

PLATON
01-28-2011, 06:23 PM
I am thinking to order a TN with 23" front and 25" back but I am worried if this may affect the construction of the jacket in a peculiar way.

Any thoughts? Anyone else had tried something similar?

TheExit148
01-28-2011, 06:40 PM
I am thinking to order a TN with 23" front and 25" back but I am worried if this may affect the construction of the jacket in a peculiar way.

Any thoughts? Anyone else had tried something similar?
I think if you did this, when the jacket falls off the shoulders, which it will, the back may look longer then the front, unless Riley does something when the back length is extended. My 23" front and 23" back looks equal when it falls off the shoulders.

PLATON
01-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Yeah this puzzles me all the time....

RCSignals
01-28-2011, 07:02 PM
When it comes to this jacket you have to forget all other jacket convention. My KOTCS jacket with a longer back (the regular ford size back) falls to the right spot. My TN Raider with the 23" back falls to the right spot.
I'm 6', 6'1" depending on the day.

Platon you don't want a TN Raider with a 25" back and 23" front.

Now if someone makes the jacket 'corrected' to fit like a jacket should (like the other I-J jackets) then a 23" back on a 6' person would be way too short.
This of course is not taking into consideration someone who is 6' with an extra long torso. In that case you would do as Gunslinger did.

neutronbomb
01-29-2011, 12:08 AM
I'd also say it's a bad idea to mess with the pattern dimensions like that. It depends on how tall you are, but if you have jackets that you're happy with and you know you won't be pleased with 23", then go with 25" all the way around.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
01-29-2011, 12:30 AM
No need to change the pattern IMO. I am 6'3" and my Nowak is 25" front and back... it fits the same as my Wested that had a 24" front and 26.5 back.

RCSignals
01-29-2011, 12:32 AM
No need to change the pattern IMO. I am 6'3" and my Nowak is 25" front and back... it fits the same as my Wested that had a 24" front and 26.5 back.


I have no doubt.
People won't believe it though, it's hard to wrap one's head around as it defies everything most understand about jackets.

McQueen
01-29-2011, 05:56 AM
HWalton,

Do you have any photos posted of the jacket in which you speak of the 25"? I'm also 6'3 and I feel that the Nowak raiders I have now is a bit too small. The front measurement of mine was originally 24 and the back 25. I'm waiti g to hear back from Riley to go over the measurements on my new order. Thank you.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
01-29-2011, 06:16 AM
http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=1422.15

baldwyn
01-31-2011, 07:56 PM
I am thinking to order a TN with 23" front and 25" back but I am worried if this may affect the construction of the jacket in a peculiar way.

Any thoughts? Anyone else had tried something similar?


I got my jacket 1.5" taller in the back. I don't think it affects the construction in a peculiar way. I was hoping that I'd get less of a "back of the collar sticking straight up" as seen in this pic of me in the 000 jacket.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_XRV9x3lC4ek/Ssw3NlGSUkI/AAAAAAAABDk/DiezQwbeW30/s400/IMG_4981.JPG

But it's about the same:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs120.ash2/39315_1547933176322_1174843364_31564179_5375658_n. jpg

If I had to redo it, I'd more specific about how I wanted the collar to look :)

RCSignals
01-31-2011, 08:03 PM
The pattern would have to be changed to stop that effect of the collar. It happens because the original was incorrectly made.

the jacket will still fall back, but if the back length is made longer (an inch longer though has little effect) it will just end up being too long when worn.
Gunslinger has it right, the front and back should be the same.

RCSignals
02-23-2011, 08:35 PM
Some people still don't get this.

The effect is not just 'at the shoulder', it isn't just the position of the shoulder seam. The whole jacket 'falls back'. The collar also tends to lay away from the back of the neck.

Such effect can be seen here:

http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=1450.msg13224#msg13224






I am thinking to order a TN with 23" front and 25" back but I am worried if this may affect the construction of the jacket in a peculiar way.

Any thoughts? Anyone else had tried something similar?


I got my jacket 1.5" taller in the back. I don't think it affects the construction in a peculiar way. I was hoping that I'd get less of a "back of the collar sticking straight up" as seen in this pic of me in the 000 jacket.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_XRV9x3lC4ek/Ssw3NlGSUkI/AAAAAAAABDk/DiezQwbeW30/s400/IMG_4981.JPG

But it's about the same:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs120.ash2/39315_1547933176322_1174843364_31564179_5375658_n. jpg

If I had to redo it, I'd more specific about how I wanted the collar to look :)



It is because of the cut of the jacket. Some people have figured the collar is 'large' which it is for the jacket, but that extra size collar is not all to the front. This is also partly why the back of the Raiders jacket measures 23' (Ford's anyway)

PLATON
02-24-2011, 05:09 PM
Let me put it another way,
I wear wested size 40 and the back is 25 (if I recall correctly). Let's say it falls at the correct spot of my back.

If I buy a TN jacket and it doesn't fall at the same spot, are you ready to buy the jacket from me at the same price?

In other words, do you stand by what you say? do you guarantee it?

PLATON
02-24-2011, 05:27 PM
Another thing is that the back panel of the TN jacket is significantly shorter than any photo of the back panel we see from the movie.
Have to say that all it's other dimensions look ok, but to keep them consistent the back panel changed shape and it is not even the same as with the film

Look here
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1580/n61133040050081345577.jpg

It's almost square

It wasn't square at all in the film.
Bring up those Imam scene shots where his back is shown.

PLATON
02-24-2011, 06:03 PM
Just look at this silly back

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7316/dsc07448f.jpg

Film jacket NEVER looked like that

RCSignals
02-24-2011, 06:37 PM
Ha Ha

Well all I can say is the TN Raider on you with a 25" back would be too long.

I think you are seeing things in those photos no one else does. The first photo definitely does not have a square panel. It is well tapered.

There are some movie stills in which the back panel looks very long, but those are distorted photos.

If the jacket had not been made with a collar too large for it, the back overall would be 24 to 25", and the collar would always sit at the back of the neck. As a proper jacket should.

Many people who are around 6' or so in height have a jacket with the original back length of 23" and it ends up in the right place. This of course will not work for every 'body', and it is key to have the jacket made exactly the same as the original with it's 'mistakes' of construction.

TheExit148
02-24-2011, 07:07 PM
Here is my TN Raiders with 23" back length. If I had proper "Indy" style pants on, it'd hit perfectly to the film jacket. Personally depending on height, a leather jacket should hit right below the belt line.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4038418013_cf1e875baa.jpg

PLATON
02-24-2011, 07:31 PM
For me this is short. Look at the side straps. They are at your elbows.
I would prefer the jakcet to end at the corners of your jeans pockets.
Would that make it maybe 1 to 1 1/2 inch longer?

RCSignals
02-24-2011, 07:43 PM
For me this is short. Look at the side straps. They are at your elbows.
I would prefer the jakcet to end at the corners of your jeans pockets.
Would that make it maybe 1 to 1 1/2 inch longer?


his jacket would be too long if it were 1 to 1-1/2" longer. It might still be 'OK' with jeans etc but for that accuracy with the proper trousers, it would be too long.

Every body is different, and for you Platon it may need custom tailoring of the details for proportion. As I recall you said you are a shorter person.

RCSignals
02-24-2011, 07:46 PM
TheExit148, that is a good illustration and the jacket looks 'right'

This thread is about the collar size and how it is cut into the jacket but that also effects the overall back length of the jacket, so both discussions go together.

PLATON
02-24-2011, 07:52 PM
See? Collar, shoulder match, back no.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8225/dvdsnap.jpg[/URL]


I am not a shorter person. I am an average normal person. I wear jacket size 40 and my proportions are so perfect that everytime I try on the jacket of a suit at a clothes store the sales persons go 'WOW this looks like it was custom made for you'. And no it's not flattery because I can see that myself before they even speak. It just happens that I am a size 40 exactly. Wearing suits and jackets is my strong point with the ladies because I look very good in them and they look very good on me (the jackets).

That's why I am telling you, if I buy TN and it is shorter than what I see in the film, I will throw it out the window.

TheExit148
02-24-2011, 08:11 PM
The funny thing is, my next TN Raiders will have back length and front of 24". I just wanted it to be slightly longer for wearing with jeans etc, but with higher waisted pants, I'll wear this one because the belt line is higher. Its all about the belt line.

RCSignals
02-24-2011, 09:20 PM
Sorry Platon I thought you had said you are a shorter person.

You know if you order one you can always ask for it to be an inch longer.

Gunslinger
02-25-2011, 02:01 AM
Just make sure it's the same measurement back and front.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
02-25-2011, 02:57 AM
The 'mistakes in construction' cause the 'off the shoulder' fit which gives 1.5 or 2 inches to where the back hits compared to a Wested.

Every mistake was copied by TN. Westeds are close but the fit is different.

RCSignals
02-25-2011, 04:09 AM
As far as I can tell, Wested's new 'Hero' pattern collar stays off the neck as well.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
02-25-2011, 04:16 AM
Oh yeah I meant compared to my 3 year old Wested... :mexiguy: (just wanted to use this guy)

PLATON
02-25-2011, 07:12 AM
Here's the photo that failed before


http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8225/dvdsnap.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8225/dvdsnap.jpg

PLATON
02-25-2011, 07:15 AM
damn i ll upload it later

PLATON
03-01-2011, 07:29 AM
I think that you will all agree that this photo
is showing the correct length
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6505/behindthescenes.jpg


while this (made by TN) is not

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9710/indymerola3.jpg

Can't give you more convincing evidence. Also jacket in B&W picture is baggier than the one in the colored picture.

RCSignals
03-02-2011, 04:34 AM
Thing is the front length of the jacket in Ford's size for all the movies is about the same.

Which jacket is Ford wearing in that photo? It certainly isn't the one with all the sleeve wrinkles.

PLATON
03-02-2011, 07:02 AM
What sleeve wrinkles? That's the raiders main hero

RCSignals
03-02-2011, 07:07 AM
What sleeve wrinkles? That's the raiders main hero


There are other photos of Ford wearing the main hero and it has sleeve wrinkles exactly like the jacket being worn there by Dan.

PLATON
03-02-2011, 08:27 AM
We were talking about the length, not the sleeve wrikles,
you know well that in lamb wrinkles can easily disappaear if you hang the jacket in the closet for two-three nights.

djd
03-02-2011, 12:25 PM
I think it's far more important to get the jacket right for the person rather than concentrate on HFs jacket measurements. Unless you're EXACTLY the same build as HF the jacket probably won't look right. I'm about the same height as HF is supposed to be but a 23.5 or 24 back would be way too short for me. A 26 looks about right. I think that HF must be quite shallow in the chest and shoulders (not width, but depth) for his jacket to hang like it does?

PLATON
03-02-2011, 01:06 PM
This means that this guy (I believe it's Han Jone) should had got at least 1 size larger if he wanted the HF/Raiders look.


http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9710/indymerola3.jpg

Would you accord?

djd
03-02-2011, 01:12 PM
I certainly agree that the jacket looks too short - to my eye at least

RCSignals
03-02-2011, 06:25 PM
I think it's far more important to get the jacket right for the person rather than concentrate on HFs jacket measurements. Unless you're EXACTLY the same build as HF the jacket probably won't look right. I'm about the same height as HF is supposed to be but a 23.5 or 24 back would be way too short for me. A 26 looks about right. I think that HF must be quite shallow in the chest and shoulders (not width, but depth) for his jacket to hang like it does?


I agree with the first part of what you say, however the last part does not apply if a jacket is made in all the 'incorrect' ways of the Raiders jacket. It all has to do with it's construction and how it behaves when worn. For a Raiders jacket made properly the way a jacket would be, yes you'd need about 2" of extra back length.
this discussion goes back to the first appearance of the TN Raider and it's spec's. It's difficult to fathom until you have one to try on.

RCSignals
03-02-2011, 06:30 PM
We were talking about the length, not the sleeve wrikles,
you know well that in lamb wrinkles can easily disappaear if you hang the jacket in the closet for two-three nights.


The sleeve wrinkles also play to the fit of the sleeves. Closer fitting or baggier, and in the movie those wrinkles are very commonly seen, moreso than not.
Do you think during the making of the movie the jacket had 2 to 3 nights of hanging on a hanger unused?

I still ask which jacket is that in the b+w photo? Anyone know? The collar is also up against the back of the neck, or looks to be.

djd
03-02-2011, 06:31 PM
I can't argue with that. I know Kurts and HWJJs jackets look spot on so I guess you're right. I do agree with that the zipped jacket pictured looks too short by a couple of inches though

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
03-02-2011, 06:37 PM
It's difficult to fathom until you have one to try on.


you gotta believe
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/ojnabanjo/cc/Screenshot2011-03-02at113453AM.png

RCSignals
03-02-2011, 06:58 PM
I can't argue with that. I know Kurts and HWJJs jackets look spot on so I guess you're right. I do agree with that the zipped jacket pictured looks too short by a couple of inches though


Does it or does the b+w photo look 'off'? To me it does look off, and I think you can find other photos of Ford wearing a jacket that does not look so long on him. What is it about that b+w photo?

PLATON
03-03-2011, 07:27 AM
There's another photo, (Darctic Jones has it) that shows very clearly that the jacket is long.
If I remember well, it's a color photo and I think there's a horse in it.

Darctic can you help?

PLATON
03-03-2011, 08:01 AM
One more

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2641/shortl.jpg

RCSignals
03-03-2011, 08:15 AM
There's another photo, (Darctic Jones has it) that shows very clearly that the jacket is long.
If I remember well, it's a color photo and I think there's a horse in it.

Darctic can you help?


the photo with Ford on a horse before the truck scene? I think it has been pretty much established that is the Bantu/truck drag jacket.

But it is also well established the jacket was not long, except maybe the Bantu. It was purposely short.

PLATON
03-03-2011, 08:42 AM
no ford was not on the horse on that pic

RCSignals
03-03-2011, 08:47 AM
Maybe Darctic Jones will check in and post it

PLATON
03-03-2011, 09:22 AM
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4715/dvdsnapsmall.jpg

Ok here it is, couple of inches shorter

RCSignals
03-11-2011, 02:41 AM
Jacket length related to trouser height.

Apparently the trousers Ford wore in Raiders had a high rise. That is they sat higher on the body than 'modern' trousers. The belt being higher and back pockets being higher than modern trousers.

Those trousers would have ended more than likely approximately at 'belly button' level. I doubt higher.

Considering that, if jacket length is judged by trouser spec, higher back pockets, higher belt line etc, the perceived jacket length should be shorter. Jacket ending in back at about back pocket flap height of higher placed pockets.

I bring this up as it has been brought to my attention that people are saying reproduction jackets tend to be made too short, basing off modern blue jeans etc. That seems to be a false hood. If one has a jacket made based on specs of modern jeans and how they are worn, back pocket position, belt line, a jacket would be made longer, not shorter. A correct length Raiders jacket would look short when worn with modern trousers.

At any rate, a jacket needs to be proportioned or scaled to the intended wearer.

Weston
03-11-2011, 05:50 AM
I don't know...I was watching Raiders the other day with my boys, and I don't think the trousers were worn quite that high. At navel level is way above the hips. I wear chinos, khakis, slacks, you name it, all the time and they have never been that high. Does anyone have a screen grab of any scene from Streets of Cairo? That might help us to see how they were worn, without the distraction of a jacket. I can't help but see Grandpa Simpson when I think of the waistband hitting at, or even above the navel as was suggested by a member on another board. When I watch the movie, nothing seems wierd about the pants.

Weston

Weston
03-11-2011, 06:14 AM
I'm not trying to gut your premiss there RC. I just can't see the "at the navel" thing. Maybe a better reference is TOD, where you can see exactly where the pants ride in relation to the navel. Man, I'm getting way to focused on this. It must be time for bed (if only the kids would calm down!). I never want to reference a mans navel as often as I have tonight!

Weston

Gunslinger
03-11-2011, 06:54 AM
I say this with a staunch history of heterosexuality, but the best way is to focus on his arse.

Don't let anything to do with pocket flaps, beltline or anything distract you. It ultimately needs to come down to body proportions. IIRC the back panel should hit roughly mid upper arse cheek.

djd
03-11-2011, 07:10 AM
For what it's worth, I agree with Weston that the Raiders trousers do not look to be worn that high. Any of the repro trousers I've seen - including the ones made by NH fit like a modern pair rather than a high waisted vintage type.

PLATON
03-11-2011, 08:20 AM
I think the pants were meant to be worn high, but he didn't. That's why the crotch is so low.
It's either that, or the NH pattern is wrong and the film pants were like modern pants.
I don't know for sure.

RCSignals
03-11-2011, 04:46 PM
This is good.
Weston I agree with you, I don't think the trousers were actually worn that high. I take my comment from past discussions where it has been asserted, even stated as worn above the navel. That I don't agree with, worn above the navel, at all.
I see the trousers Ford wears as being more 'standard' but higher than many modern cut casual ones especially blue jeans.

I do think though that those trouser details and how the trousers are worn greatly influence the perception of jacket length.
Certainly if a jacket is constructed based on those details of trousers it will effect the length the jacket is made.

and yes Gunslinger is right too. The jacket length, the whole correct fit of the jacket, has more to do with proportion than any thing else.

PLATON
04-02-2011, 02:23 PM
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2256/ridiculous.jpg

OK I found this photo in my old pc hd and I am posting it again

it's the 000 vs the real mccoy


I really wonder how can I order TN after seeing this.

djd
04-02-2011, 04:07 PM
The positions aren't quite the same but it looks short to me. I'm no expert compared to you guys but a lot of replicas look too short to me (my own included)

RCSignals
04-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Those photos are distorted. They do not represent either jacket well. I've seen the 000 jacket, it isn't that short nor that wide.
Does anyone believe Harrison Ford is that long in the upper body?
This is a case of photos being very deceptive in the perception they provide.

Indiego Jones
04-03-2011, 03:18 PM
I recently had the opportunity to take measurements of a TN Raiders.
The length of back and front were not exactly equal.
Back was about 2 cm (0,78") longer than the front: front 59 cm(23.22") / back 61 cm(24")
Measure did not include collar-stand, neither the front or back.
Size of the jacket is 42 -approx-
According to owner, no special requests were ask.

I was very meticulous when taking the measurements, because my intention is to replicate the jacket.

So, is this "standard" in every TN Raiders?

RCSignals
04-03-2011, 06:28 PM
I think Indiego the front measurement has to include the storm flap to be the same as the back length. Did you measure the front including the storm flap?
also, the person said he made no special requests, but did he make size requests? I suspect he did.
Also was the jacket lamb? If so lamb seams to change over time being worn, sometimes stretching sometimes 'losing' dimension. Just things to consider.

Indiego Jones
04-03-2011, 07:40 PM
I think Indiego the front measurement has to include the storm flap to be the same as the back length. Did you measure the front including the storm flap?
also, the person said he made no special requests, but did he make size requests? I suspect he did.
Also was the jacket lamb? If so lamb seams to change over time being worn, sometimes stretching sometimes 'losing' dimension. Just things to consider.

I didn't include the collar-stand on the front measurement. Maybe there's the difference.
Does your jacket have this measurement?
I did this commentary because I read all the time about the same lenght front and back. And this is not completely accurate.

As for the size, is near to a 42.
Is in goat, and almost 2 years old. That I was told.

Weston
04-03-2011, 07:58 PM
With the exception of Gunslinger's jacket, I think most of the Nowak Raider's jackets I've seen look too short. That aside, I really just wanted to chime in with RC's comment about the flexibility of Lambskin. A lambskin jacket that's been worn for a long time can shrink, stretch, and expand all at the same time. I'm usually packing stuff around in my cargo pockets and the weight constantly drags the front of the jacket down, while the back gradually creeps up. Over time, the measurements on a lambskin jacket can change significantly, and none of mine match original specs. This got me to wondering how much the dimensions could have changed by the time Tony had a chance to examine an original jacket. Has this been considered before?

Weston

jnicktem
04-03-2011, 08:18 PM
My Nowak Raiders in Shrunken Lamb seems to be the same length as the hero jacket. At first it seemed a little on the short side, but after wearing it for awhile the leather started to relax a bit and became slightly longer. I bet you if I put my jacket through hell and back like they did to the film jacket it would stretch out quite nicely.

Kevin Anderson
04-03-2011, 11:12 PM
I'm 5'8", maybe 5'9", and my Shrunken Lamb Raiders jacket from Riley was just too long on me. I ordered an extra inch on both front and back lengths; 24.5" front and 24" back, I'm I recall correctly.
The whole jacket just seemed to long overall too; a friend commented it looked more like Fonzies jacket than Indy's! It may have suited someone taller, like Ford perhaps.
I still wish I'd just gone with Tony's original measurements though, as I think even just one inch would have made quite a difference in the overal fit and feel.
And slightly more on topic, I must admit I've always been slightly sceptical that the Hero jacket could have been 23 inches in the back, especially for such a tall guy as Harrison.
There seems to be evidence to support both the 'it's long' and the 'it's short' arguments.

RCSignals
04-04-2011, 02:01 AM
............ This got me to wondering how much the dimensions could have changed by the time Tony had a chance to examine an original jacket. Has this been considered before?

Weston


By Tony yes

djd
04-04-2011, 08:49 AM
My Magnoli jacket measures 25.5 (originally 26) in the back. It feels at least an inch too short on me. I'm just 6' tall. I can only assume this is because the jacket does not fall backwards off my sholders in the way the Raiders jacket does?

PLATON
04-04-2011, 03:16 PM
Those photos are distorted. They do not represent either jacket well. I've seen the 000 jacket, it isn't that short nor that wide.
Does anyone believe Harrison Ford is that long in the upper body?
This is a case of photos being very deceptive in the perception they provide.

RC the photos are not distorted, they are original.
If you want take the screenshot yourself and compare to the 000 photo.
Do the comparison yourself and show us

This photo of HF is the most clear shot of his back in the entire film.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
04-04-2011, 05:09 PM
MHJ

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/ojnabanjo/dd/AA.jpg

djd
04-04-2011, 05:30 PM
That's a great shot HWJ. Nice to see you around ;D

RCSignals
04-04-2011, 06:16 PM
It is an argument that will never have solution, even though an actual jacket was measured and duplicated.

In the end it is about fit to each individual.

One thing to remember about the back length, it is effected by the collar and the construction. The collar is too large for the jacket and the extra length is not all 'to the front'. If the collar were a correct size, and constructed/placed in the jacket properly, the back would measure longer.

Indiego Jones
04-04-2011, 06:39 PM
I'd like to add something here.
The last 6 months I was working on developing a Raiders jacket pattern.
Not an easy task, at all.
A couple months ago I was able to measure a TN Raiders.
Lucky me...but not enough to unlock every detail. To do so, it would have been necessary to disassemble the whole jacket...the owner was not happy about it... :rolleyes:

A big element to this particular jacket, is not only the cut, but also, Ford's body shape (obviously)
Tall almost 6', with a 40" chest, and really thin guy. Not a bodybuilder at all. IMO there's no long/short torso component.
This jacket wasn't fitted. It has lots of room in the upper area (close to a 42 size). Thats why "hangs" that much on the shoulders. And has all that extra material in the sides (the leather that connects the front to back)
The "hanging" affects the perception in the length of the front and back.
Plus the strange cut this jacket had, wich tends to fall back all the time, and a leather not too stiff.
Results in the "illusion" of the long/short lenght.
Also, had a relatively small waist. So, when zipped, looks "fitted".

In fact, after carefully studying this pattern, I think is a work of art.
Maybe breaks many rules of jacket making, but definitely got a unique look, and solved the functional problems.
PETER: congratulations on a well done job.

Regards.-

djd
04-04-2011, 06:48 PM
That's a very interesting post and kind of mirrors what I've thought about the jacket. Because I have broad shoulders and a relatively large chest , the typical jacket tends to look very square on me - more like a bomber jacket despite the correct length. Fords relatively narrow chest and shoulders make the jacket look more oblong than square - longer than it actually is

RCSignals
04-04-2011, 09:07 PM
Indiego I think that is a pretty good assessment. From all the talks I had with Tony he would pretty much agree. His first inclination after taking detailed measurements and making a pattern was to 'correct' the jacket. There were just too many things out of 'convention'
He realised that if he did it would no longer be the same. Peter has said the jacket was put together quickly of many different jacket elements, and that is why it is as it is. That makes sense.

Indiego Jones
04-04-2011, 11:20 PM
Indiego I think that is a pretty good assessment. From all the talks I had with Tony he would pretty much agree. His first inclination after taking detailed measurements and making a pattern was to 'correct' the jacket. There were just too many things out of 'convention'
He realised that if he did it would no longer be the same. Peter has said the jacket was put together quickly of many different jacket elements, and that is why it is as it is. That makes sense.


Totally agree.
Many things here look off. But are this details that make the jacket unique.
Regarding sizing, IMO, if you respect "proportions" you can get an SA look.
Must consider many more body measurements than for a normal jacket. It's a difficult task, but possible.

One of my major problems today, is to find a leather tailor who wants to build this jacket without making corrections to this patterns.
It's frustrating, because every single one wants to "make it better". :hairguy:

I don't understand the detractors who says this is not an "every day" jacket.
Maybe because, during all my research and work, I have come to admire this design.

AGAIN, a big applause to the great man, the creator of this design, who with few resources and lack of time put together this great jacket:
Mr Peter Botwright :goodjob:

Indiego Jones
04-05-2011, 03:05 AM
That's a very interesting post and kind of mirrors what I've thought about the jacket. Because I have broad shoulders and a relatively large chest , the typical jacket tends to look very square on me - more like a bomber jacket despite the correct length. Fords relatively narrow chest and shoulders make the jacket look more oblong than square - longer than it actually is

Exactly what I mean.
Regards.-

PLATON
04-05-2011, 07:22 AM
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/ojnabanjo/dd/AA.jpg

Look here how long is the yoke seam
and how wide seems to be the upper side of the back panel.
Never seen that on a repro jacket.

PLATON
04-05-2011, 02:59 PM
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1580/n61133040050081345577.jpg

certainly not on the 000

damn, if this jacket was made after a film used jacket there shouldn't be any doubts.
All the copies after it would look spot on. They are not. Gunslinger has changed has tweaked the patterns/details...
damn...

RCSignals
04-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Platon, you are the one with the doubts.
Gunslinger made 'tweeks' for personal fit, and to match another jacket.

PLATON
04-05-2011, 06:06 PM
Am I the only one with doubts?
In the two photos above the yoke seam seems to 'the same' in your eyes?

Please answer

RCSignals
04-05-2011, 06:44 PM
the yoke seams? they do

PLATON
04-05-2011, 06:52 PM
honestly?

jnicktem
04-05-2011, 08:55 PM
They look the same to me as well. The placement just looks different because one jacket is being worn while the other is lying on a table.

Gunslinger
04-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Platon, mate, seriously, just buy it. :D

I only tweaked the details, NOTHING to do with the cut, proportions, etc.

Most importantly, as you have seen in other threads, once I ensured that the front centre is the same length on me as it was on Ford (as per him approaching Marion in the zipped-up Raven bar scene), EVERYTHING ELSE fell into place with ZERO tweaking, including the back. I specced my back the same length as my front length as per Tony's measurements and observations, and all angles show the fit, panels, pocket placement, etc are dead-on the movie. Surely this proves the 000/888 is "correct"?

Look at the "Peru" shot above and then here - the back seems pretty much the same to me, both in fit, cut and drape. Look at stuff like body-sleeve length proportion.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100625_104912.jpg

Another important thing is all the shots of my jackets tend to use the "correct" length lens (70mm-ish) on an SLR. These shots you keep showing of 000-888 are worth jack shit as I can tell they are taken on either a cheapie digital camera or phone. That wide angle lens plus closeness to the lacket / wearer equals massive amounts of distortion. Looking at them will continue to drive you crazy.

PLATON
04-08-2011, 03:58 PM
So you mean to say that in the photo above you are wearing a 44R ?

DeWayne
04-08-2011, 10:51 PM
Lens distortion is almost impossible to explain to people, I've found. My own best example are these pics of a Vader helmet of mine I took. Same camera, same lens, same helmet. Different distance from object and focal lengths.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e252/Pantheragem/413263706_dcf6ba51ac.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e252/Pantheragem/413263702_c7861a8b59.jpg

Kevin Anderson
04-09-2011, 12:37 AM
So you mean to say that in the photo above you are wearing a 44R ?


I can't find the thread at the other place anymore, but if I recall correctly, the back length of Gunslingers jacket pictured above was 24", maybe 24.5"?
I remember the shorter one was sold to another member; I should have snapped it up, it was just my size, bar the long sleeves.
It's always interesting to note the placement of the straps in relation to the overall back panel height. On the 000 they look about a third of the way up.
On the picture of Indy and on Gunslingers jacket, they look about a quarter of the way up from the hem.

djd
04-09-2011, 08:01 AM
@deWayne- that's a really good illustration thanks. Nice Vader too!

Gunslinger
04-09-2011, 10:13 AM
So you mean to say that in the photo above you are wearing a 44R ?


No, it's a custom. But I'm a 44L in suits if that helps. All of that is beside the point, though. The point is Tony Nowak was the first person to say on the Raiders jacket, back length=front length. If he wasn't correct, or if the 000 jacket wasn't "real", it wouldn't bear out in comparisons, NO MATTER WHAT THE SIZE OF THE WEARER. It's all about the CUT.

Gunslinger
04-09-2011, 10:17 AM
Thanks, DeWayne. One basic rule of thumb is that most amateurs use a wide angle lens. This makes anything closer to the lens disproportionately bigger.





So you mean to say that in the photo above you are wearing a 44R ?


I can't find the thread at the other place anymore, but if I recall correctly, the back length of Gunslingers jacket pictured above was 24", maybe 24.5"?
I remember the shorter one was sold to another member; I should have snapped it up, it was just my size, bar the long sleeves.
It's always interesting to note the placement of the straps in relation to the overall back panel height. On the 000 they look about a third of the way up.
On the picture of Indy and on Gunslingers jacket, they look about a quarter of the way up from the hem.


24.5" front and back. I made no changes to the strap height - again, lens distortion. Look how small the yoke looks in the table shot.

Kevin Anderson
04-09-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm a bit lost here; wasn't PLATON's original argument that the Hero jacket couldn't have been only 23" in the back?
I'm not sure he's arguing about the front and back length being the same.
Surely the fact that we're adding length to the front and back of our replicas, to make them look right, kind of proves his point?
Gunslingers 23" back TN Raiders looked too small on him, imo. The one pictured above with a 24.5" back looks much more like the
screen jacket to me.
I might upset a few folks in saying so, but I pretty much agree with PLATON on the whole length thing.
I think all of the TN replicas I've seen with the 23" front and back just look too darn short on any reasonably tallish, Ford-heighted person,
and oddly out of proportion in relation to the strap height and pocket placement/size.
Gunslingers 24.5" jacket though; spot on. I think it's much closer to the size we see on Ford on screen.

djd
04-09-2011, 01:37 PM
I agree with you Kevin. Really these jackets have to be made to measure with the person being present with the tailor to be sure of the right look I think. One thing we know the jacket isn't is a waist length bomber jacket. Because of that I'd always be inclined to aim for too long than risk too short. Doesn't just apply to TNOs- applies to all makers

DeWayne
04-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Thanks Djd. I was into Vader helmets as much as Indy jackets, until I got my life-size Vader finished anyway. Now I just enjoy it for what it is, which is, imperfect. Believe me, that community can be just as nasty as the Indy community, maybe even worse. I can make parallels between most people in the jacket community, to their equivalent in the Vader helmet community. :banghead:

Gunslinger
04-09-2011, 11:00 PM
I guess the other piece of info I left out is that I don't think Ford was ever as tall as me. I'm 6'1" and by all accounts, ford is more like 5'11" not the 6'1" that some have claimed. It would be much easier if one of us could take a 000-sized jacket, give it to Ford and see how it hangs on him - but the closes we have to that is the Nowak worn in CS.

But yes, as I've said, in relation to Platon's argument, any fixation on numbers will always lead to trouble / headaches, and is totally irrelevant if we want something that will fit our own bodies. It's all about cut.

PLATON
04-24-2012, 06:45 PM
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9564/l8297143fb5acf.jpg

anyone has it bigger? (the photo)

Tibor
04-25-2012, 10:32 PM
a bit bigger... part of the original still set from the press kit.


http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/tibor-IL/souls.jpg?t=1335392910

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/tibor-IL/souls-1.jpg?t=1335393763

indydude18
04-25-2012, 11:47 PM
Notice the dark buttons on the shirt, that's the shirt Noel had in his possession before he passed.

Returningson
04-26-2012, 02:08 AM
Hmmm... Look at that graining on the holster flap. Never really seen that before!

Gunslinger
04-26-2012, 06:58 AM
Damn that's just such a cool hat and jacket. Great hat angle.

PLATON
04-26-2012, 11:05 AM
http://www.celebheights.com/s/John-Rhys-Davies-696.html

If Sallah is 5'10'' then there's no way HF is 6'

Junior
04-26-2012, 12:03 PM
Hmmm... Look at that graining on the holster flap. Never really seen that before!


I seem to recall getting the Indiana Jones RPG boxed set in the 80's and they had an excellent close up shot of HF in the booklet showing the holster in detail. You could see it had a lot a grain in the leather. Haven't seen that PIC since. Anyone here have that game that could scan that picture?

deadseascrolls
04-26-2012, 02:41 PM
If Sallah is 5'10'' then there's no way HF is 6'



In that picture, it's pretty noticeable that both men are kind of slumped forward, so the true height of each is distorted. Especially with Ford who is slumped more than Davies.

Ford back then was 6' 1" or so the site PLATON posted says, but he's since lost some height and was probably, according to the site, 5' 11.5" when CS was made.

So I'd believe Ford was 6' 1" when Raiders was, accounting for the slump of both men in that picture.

PLATON
04-26-2012, 04:12 PM
the problem with ford is that if you give a TN HF size jacket to a 6ft tall person to wear, he will never look like ford (jacket will be short) which means 2 things, that either ford is/was not 6ft tall, or the TN HF size jacket was not made after an original film jacket

that's what I think. You?

Returningson
04-26-2012, 04:17 PM
I have always believe Ford was 5'11. But I KNOW that TN copied an original film raiders jacket (with all the avalible evidence and my own personal experience handling the screen used jacket he had when I happened to be visiting him that day).

McQueen
04-26-2012, 04:39 PM
Platon,

Your statement about the TN HF jacket on a person who is 6ft + isn't correct. People tend to forget that tall people can also have very short torsos. If that was the case, the 23" back would look fine on somebody who was of that height, but the overall appearance might be off with such long legs.

Indiego Jones
04-26-2012, 04:59 PM
Platon,

Your statement about the TN HF jacket on a person who is 6ft + isn't correct. People tend to forget that tall people can also have very short torsos. If that was the case, the 23" back would look fine on somebody who was of that height, but the overall appearance might be off with such long legs.


My personal opinion and theory:

1) Ford have normal/regular torso lenght, proportionally to his height. He isn't taller than 1,80 m (so, slightly under 6 ft).
2) According to my studies of the Raiders jacket pattern, a person with that height will need a 24" (+ o -) back lenght. In order to look the way we see on the film. Obviously, it's also VERY important the chest size and shoulder to shoulder width of the person.
3) The jacket TN examined, originally, may have had that back lenght. But, 30 years of storage (plus: we don't know the conditions of this storage), and no use at all, it could cause shrinkage of 1 inch in a sheep/lamb skin jacket.

Regards.-

PLATON
04-26-2012, 06:00 PM
I totally agree with you

Raskolnikov
04-26-2012, 09:15 PM
I KNOW that TN copied an original film raiders jacket (with all the avalible evidence and my own personal experience handling the screen used jacket he had when I happened to be visiting him that day).


Oh my, every time you remind us that you had the jacket in your hands I start drooling. What a lucky guy you were :banllama:

Ravenswood
04-26-2012, 09:38 PM
You ain't whistlin' Dixie, Raskolnikov!

Seriously, I wish George Lucas would get off his stingy a$$ and let us in on it. If he wont share pictures or put the MAIN HERO jacket on display, then maybe he could scan the jacket into his CGI system that he loves so bad, and give us a 3D rendering......or SOMETHING!!! :hairguy:

Returningson
04-26-2012, 09:43 PM
trust me...i know...I just happened to luck out and be there on the day he had it. Its a bummer because je just sprung it on me. I didnt have my camera to be begin with but as fast he he let me touch he, he took it back. :rolleyes: Anyway, it was like touching the grail, for about 30 seconds... :)

I agree with Ravenswood. Just post some pics or specs Lucas and silence alot of the assumptions floating around...

Ravenswood
04-26-2012, 09:45 PM
...but I digress :D

[woops! this message got posted after Returningson's post, but before I read it....maybe I don't digress after all] 8)

PLATON
04-26-2012, 09:58 PM
trust me...i know...I just happened to luck out and be there on the day he had it. Its a bummer because je just sprung it on me. I didnt have my camera to be begin with but as fast he he let me touch he, he took it back. Anyway, it was like touching the grail, for about 30 seconds...

impressive,
how was the leather like? thick? thin? stiff? soft? grainy? smooth?

Give us a description. Did you see the side straps?
whatever you remember

Returningson
04-27-2012, 01:31 AM
Thats why I dont really tell the story.

I met Tony on Sunday, September 7th, 2008. I didnt bring a camera and I had NO IDEA he was replicating a raiders. No one knew at that time. In fact, if you look at the thread here

http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29960&hilit=nowak&start=450

I was the very first one to hint at the nowak raiders being made (not member Fedora as some posted).

Look, the reason I caught a glimspe of the jacket was because of my dad. I brought him along for the ride and to scope out some really cool jackets. Tony and him were both the same age and shared similair interests as well as having the same mentality/humor. They joked, laughed and shot the shit while I ogled at jackets and hides heaped in piles around Tony's shop which was very unorganized.

So, we are gathered around the big table (anyone who has been there knows) and then Tony scuttles off for a minute and comes back with this beaten leather jacket. He threw it on my lap and said "take a look at that". I knew it was old. I knew it was raiders. I had it in my hands for 30 seconds before Tony took it back. He told me that was THE hero jacket he was going to copy. I honestly cant remember if it had a label (although I dont think it did) and I dont remember what the grain was like or the side straps. Seriously, he just sprung it on me. Again, he hadnt had the shrunken lamb because he hadnt sourced that hide yet but when I visited him a second time, I wholeheartedly agreed with him that the jacket was indeed shrunken lamb after he showed me his personal copy. I dont broadcast this story around because I really dont want to be bombared with questions i cant answer concerning 30 second thing that happened 5 years ago. All I know is that it was indeed a HERO and IT WAS NOT THE SPARKS LEATHER CONCESSAIRES copy.

Believe me, if I knewthat he was going to do that, I might have snuck in a camera.

IfAdventureHasAName
04-27-2012, 02:03 AM
"Returningson", not only were you blessed and fortunate to have met, spoken to, and to have known Mr. Nowak (rest in peace) personally...but to have touched and handled, albeit briefly, a piece of iconic movie history. Memories that you, and maybe others may have, that makes us all envious. Sometimes the greatest things that happen to us are unexpected.


That's why I have a phone with a camera and that can take video. ;) But, no worries. Completely understand keeping that story "under wraps".

Returningson
04-27-2012, 03:18 AM
i totally agree. Its was a stunningly fantastic experience. Tony was so down to earth and just a great guy. I had dealt with good vendors before but Tony....i mean, he just kept throwing jacket after jacket on my (some actual screen used Hero jackets like his Terminator or stuntman used Mutt as well as his surrogates jackets he was currently making) while we got a hands on tour of his entire shop. That was so cool, to see a stack of hides traverse the prepping, cutting, sowing production stages to a finished jacket. To cap it off, once Tony was finished with my first CS he actually came down to my hometown and we had beers at our local spot (which happened to be our Marie Calenders right off the freeway). Thats where he really got into the nitty gritty details about his "italian lamb" (I dont think he called it 'shrunken' yet) but I remember he was so excited because he was CONVICED and just absolutely certain that his lamb was what the original was made out of...

PLATON
04-27-2012, 07:22 AM
Memories that you, and maybe others may have, that makes us all envious.

I wouldn't say envious, I'd say interested and curious.

I have seen photos of the shrunken lamb and from the photos only it doesn't look like what I see in the film.
Do you have any SL photos that may change my mind?

Returningson
04-27-2012, 03:18 PM
this is where I bow out. All I can say is that Tony was 100% sure that had he the original leather that made up the hero dead to rights. He told me that no other leather came closer than shrunken lamb.

In defense of shrunken lamb, throw a jacket with a huge ass amount of graining, straitiatons in a shadowy jungle setting coivered with dust and fullers earth after being distressed and then try viewing that jacket through film stock, im sure alot of the graining pattern will be lost. But thats just my opinion though.

Indiego Jones
04-27-2012, 03:35 PM
Thanks for sharing with us that experience.



this is where I bow out. All I can say is that Tony was 100% sure that had he the original leather that made up the hero dead to rights. He told me that no other leather came closer than shrunken lamb.

In defense of shrunken lamb, throw a jacket with a huge ass amount of graining, straitiatons in a shadowy jungle setting coivered with dust and fullers earth after being distressed and then try viewing that jacket through film stock, im sure alot of the graining pattern will be lost. But thats just my opinion though.


Agree about the SL.

PLATON
04-28-2012, 09:03 PM
show us a good photo of the SL

Tyderium
04-30-2012, 09:58 AM
the problem with ford is that if you give a TN HF size jacket to a 6ft tall person to wear, he will never look like ford (jacket will be short) which means 2 things, that either ford is/was not 6ft tall, or the TN HF size jacket was not made after an original film jacket

that's what I think. You?



The jacket IS short.
I'm nearly 6.1" and the HF sized version falls about right on me IMO :).
Where it looks to be longer in the front it is shark finning in the back.
Where it looks longer in the back it is falling off the shoulders.
The perceived length of THIS jacket has always been a bit of an illusion due to the way it constantly shifts on the shoulders.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1945/aldens2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/214/aldens2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7752/ravenshort.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/ravenshort.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

PLATON
04-30-2012, 01:24 PM
i cannot agree with the photos you posted as the shoulders panel is almost entirely "consumed" by his movement

Tyderium
05-02-2012, 11:20 AM
i cannot agree with the photos you posted as the shoulders panel is almost entirely "consumed" by his movement


Sorry for late reply here Platon, the topic has moved on but, yeah, absolutely the yoke is being consumed with his movement and is riding higher on the shoulders but even allowing for this I feel the images are supportive of a short jacket. I still believe the construction of the jacket and its consequent shifting on the body is responsible for the perception of a longer jacket on film in certain parts.

neutronbomb
05-02-2012, 02:54 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Short%20Jacket/platon-1.jpg

Pants sit high up:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Pants/pantsheight_composite1.jpg

Returningson
05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
NICE!!!!! ;D

TheExit148
05-02-2012, 03:53 PM
NB, I'm pretty sure that screen is from Last Crusade, because of Sahla's outfit. If the pants were the same throughout, it may be a good reference. There is a pic of Ford from Raiders with no shirt in the making of book though, I don't have it readily available.

PLATON
05-02-2012, 04:03 PM
yeah could be LC, he looks young though

I think the pants dont sit high, they sit normal below the navel.
The indypants have double pleats and that is making them bulky below the belt area
Look here

http://vintagemalecelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Harrison+ford+in+speedos.jpg
http://www.pajiba.com/assets_c/2009/08/6d7n2-thumb-300x221-3575.jpg
http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2009/04/ford-flockhart-village1.jpg
http://knockedupcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/harrisonford_a.jpg
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Harrison+Ford+Harrison+Ford+Picks+Snack+KIY-O2vaHPdl.jpg
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Harrison+Ford+Harrison+Ford+Picks+Snack+7KMwYW2Hih hl.jpg
http://c580019.r19.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Harrison-Ford.jpg

neutronbomb
05-02-2012, 04:58 PM
I grabbed quickly from one of the makings of Raiders. Gunslinger pointed before on one of the grabs from making of we were discussing awhile ago that it was LC. So it seems in those they make use of a few clips from LC. I don't know in this case though. I'll have to leave it to you guys who are more knowledgeable on LC.

An inch below to right at the bottom of the belly button is high waisted to me. Normal to other people I guess. It's a matter of perspective.

neutronbomb
05-02-2012, 05:34 PM
The ratios are off I think to try and do a direct draw a line across, etc. But looking at each photo individually and comparing against the others may give a pretty good idea.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Pants/pantsheight_composite2.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Pants/pantsheight_composite3.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Pants/Raven_backlength1.jpg

RCSignals
05-04-2012, 05:51 AM
Platon,

Your statement about the TN HF jacket on a person who is 6ft + isn't correct. People tend to forget that tall people can also have very short torsos. If that was the case, the 23" back would look fine on somebody who was of that height, but the overall appearance might be off with such long legs.


My personal opinion and theory:

1) Ford have normal/regular torso lenght, proportionally to his height. He isn't taller than 1,80 m (so, slightly under 6 ft).
2) According to my studies of the Raiders jacket pattern, a person with that height will need a 24" (+ o -) back lenght. In order to look the way we see on the film. Obviously, it's also VERY important the chest size and shoulder to shoulder width of the person.
3) The jacket TN examined, originally, may have had that back lenght. But, 30 years of storage (plus: we don't know the conditions of this storage), and no use at all, it could cause shrinkage of 1 inch in a sheep/lamb skin jacket.

Regards.-


This discussion has gone on before and probably will go on forever.

The jacket Tony Nowak had was an original jacket and he took these things into consideration, condition of the leather etc. He was a master at this. One also has to consider that this was in no way a conventional jacket pattern as far as fit goes. It is something Tony him self stated about the jacket It was not constructed properly for a normal jacket.

As for the height of HF I believe at the time of Raiders he probably was 6' plus It is impossible to tell in those photos in comparison to Salla given how Indy is standing. If he was standing tall he may well appear 2 plus inches taller.

what is important in making a jacket is proportioning it to the person. Not focusing on the size of the jacket HF wore

PLATON
06-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Now if this isn't a long jacket, then I don't know what is

Enjoy

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7214/7281374018_bd71938306_k.jpg

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
06-08-2012, 05:50 PM
is the idol poking out of his zipper?

Topper
06-08-2012, 06:12 PM
He's wearing Tom Sellecks jacket :lolhit:

K-Wad
06-08-2012, 07:28 PM
Yes, the front looks long in that pic, but, what about the back?

I've come to realize that the reason it is so hard to get a good judge of length from the film jackets is that they are constantly sliding around on Ford's shoulders. When the jacket does the "off the shoulder" thing (with the collar away from the back of his neck), the back looks longer and the front looks shorter.
When the collar is pulled up to the back of his neck, the front looks long and the back short.

My Wested Hero does this. Sometimes I put it on and it looks too long, then other times, it looks very short. It just depends where the jacket is sitting on my shoulders.

Indiana Bugs
06-08-2012, 08:49 PM
He's got a golden little winky!

Ravenswood
06-12-2012, 04:55 PM
You know what they say about long jackets? .....short idols. :whip: :D

sorry ;)

But I will second what K-Wad is saying. I KNOW my current Wested Hero is long. I added a couple inches to the length so that I could wear a sweater and scarf underneath.....or for when I put on the inevitable extra "tonnage" (to use a Navy term) heheh...
BUT I can fool myself into thinking it's a short jacket by wearing it "off the shoulders". The front rides up considerably, making my 25" front length appear to be 23". Yet, the back panel is halfway down my pants pockets, lol

Conversely, I could create the illusion that I have a shorter back, by snugging the collar up to the back of my neck. The front comes way down though, and appears obviously long.

I like the whole wonky fit of the jacket, btw.
I prefer the somewhere in between the two effects, although if I had a preference between the two, I would probably wear my jacket forward, or "on the shoulders".

The NEXT jacket I'm gonna get will have the shorter measurements. (did I say NEXT?! Yup.....it'll be my 13th Raiders jacket. I think I'm on a roll ;D )

PLATON
06-19-2012, 09:39 PM
The Making of Raiders of the Lost Ark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iAgSyGy5iE#)

check it out here at 11:51 onwards

neutronbomb
06-19-2012, 09:56 PM
Your high.

PLATON
06-19-2012, 10:02 PM
watch at 43:13 on TL

neutronbomb
06-19-2012, 10:17 PM
43.13 is of the plane exploding? TL is in the 48+ minutes. TL is wearing the Prototype jacket. So if you check the prototype jacket thread you can see lots of pics of the jacket.

Here's a couple from that thread that show TL wearing it:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/Leonard_hanging3.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/Leonard_walking2.png

The other one you showed a bit earlier is of the main hero jacket. I guess I need to just keep posting these compares over and over again until you acknowledge it or address it because they're of the same jacket(s) you keep posting about. The movie poster is the main hero. Check out the raven bar compares below. They're also the main hero. If you want to say that the main hero jacket looks long to you in certain photos or screen caps, then that's fine. You've been doing that for over three years now that I'm aware of so I know it's very important to you. It doesn't change the fact that it's still the main hero jacket.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Short%20Jacket/platon-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Pants/Raven_backlength1.jpg

PLATON
06-19-2012, 10:33 PM
yeah I know sometimes it's short, sometimes it's long. I have given up. I am just trying to make conversation.

maybe a more appropriate title for this thread would be 'the long back strikes back' huh?

neutronbomb
06-19-2012, 10:36 PM
LOL. OK. We can make that happen.

Gunslinger
06-19-2012, 11:53 PM
Awesome title - it made ME look!

No need to make conversation; the real reason it looks long sometimes and short in others is that Steven Spielberg personally sewed the back panel of the jacket out of poly-viscose, so it STRETCHES. George just confirmed this to me by text. :crazy:

neutronbomb
06-20-2012, 11:21 PM
ok. I killed all the repeat photos.

kiltie
06-21-2012, 12:04 AM
There's a bandwidth joke to be made, I'm sure of it.
PLATON - is there a reason you want to see the jacket as longer? Like you see more jackets in the movie than nb does? I mean assuming you accept the Nowak 1:1 as being the real deal...
The jacket guys always seem more like Marines on leave, whislt the hat guys are playing cards at the VFW.

neutronbomb
06-21-2012, 01:19 AM
The reason is because Peter said one time that he made one jacket longer for Raiders.

kiltie
06-21-2012, 01:34 AM
Huh...
I hadn't heard that. Was it just sorta off the cuff, or was there more to it?
I'm fairly satisfied with what I've seen with the "3 Jacket Theory", but I guess I could see a longer jacket spec'd out for a particular stunt. Not that I'm pointing to this in particular, but as a hypothetical example: say they needed some kind of harness to be covered in the WoS scene or something.
After all, there's the whip with the cable in it, things of that nature. That would account for a single longer jacket that doesn't seem to appear in the film. It'll be nice when Mr Botwright tells his story here.



Edit: spelling error that changed the meaning of a sentence.

crismans
06-21-2012, 01:57 AM
The jacket guys always seem more like Marines on leave, whislt the hat guys are playing cards at the VFW.

Not that I want to lay everything at a certain person's doorstep, but I think a lot of the "fire" that erupted in the jacket world was due to one person. Either he would attack someone that was advancing a theory or advance one of his own that was so preposterous, people felt they had to respond. Then, he would go on attack mode and off to the races we'd go.

Now, there might be something in the jacket lover's makeup that causes them to be a bit more argumentative than a hat guy, but I really think that the majority of the problems were created by one guy. You don't see any big flame wars here. Just good debate.