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neutronbomb
02-07-2014, 04:10 AM
I noticed in viewing many of the Blue-Ray Hi-Def photos that the photos of the Hawaiian Scene really reminded me of the colors in Desi's Screen Used Raiders Fedora. So I went back and took a look. I couldn't believe they were such an exact match. Especially the ribbon. Pretty dead on. Like on the money.

As I got into it more, I thought I'd pull out three Raiders fedoras I own and check out the Ribbons and then decided to take some pictures in different lighting, camera angles, etc. When I compared everything, some things didn't make sense so I thought I'd put together some of what I was looking at and see if some of you guys know the deal. As I thought about it, I was reminded about AB Deluxe's Indy boots. How Marc Kitter said that he met with Alden and had them do the boots the exact dark brown color of the Raider's era with the non-white stitching on the toe that they did on the boots HF wore in the film. However, we can see from TheEXit148's thread http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2142-Vintage-pair-of-Alden-405-s-possibly-the-hero-boot that the actual boots are much lighter brown color with the white lacing. Somehow some wires got crossed somewhere. Maybe the manufacturer/supplier tells the vendor what they want to hear to get a new client. I don't know.

I did nine comparables. I'll go through each one at a time and explain what I was looking at.

1. The first one I was looking at the first two photos. One of the Hawaiian scene and desi's fedora. Total exact match. Ribbon and felt to Desi's fedora. Totally blew my mind. Why. I don't know. Maybe the colors in the Hawaiian scene are more true to what they really look like or something. I even thought Desi's fedora might be the one used in the Hawaiian Scene. But of course not, the bow is an exact match to the Main Fedora (Truck Scene, SOC, etc.) of which I show at the bottom of the second photo compare which is clearly different than and not the bow in the Hawaiian Fedora. Physical characteristics is where the bow match can be seen. But that's weird. The ribbon looks practically black in the SOC scene that shows the bow match to Desi's.

Basically in this first photo compare, I'm looking at how the ribbon color matches throughout the Hawaiian scene and when the ribbon looks lighter or a darker shade you can still see how it IS the color of Desi's Fedora. Just like the boots as shown in the http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2142-Vintage-pair-of-Alden-405-s-possibly-the-hero-boot thread. Also check out different promo shots of the fedora that can see easily match Desi's and the Hawaiian one.


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare1_zps4fe569d7.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare1_zps4fe569d7.jpg.html)


2. In this second photo I took as super a close up I could of the bow of Desi's Fedora and compared it to the ribbon of the Hawaiian Fedora showing how similar the edges of the ribbon look to Desi's and then at the bottom show the bow match with the SOC Fedora. No doubt Desi's is the SOC Fedora. But, how is it that the ribbon looks so much darker. Weird. But lighting, filters, etc. do weird things to color I guess. The bow of Desi's shows a match to the SOC bow, but has the color of the Hawaiian Fedora.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare2_zps04886bd9.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare2_zps04886bd9.jpg.html)


3. I show how now that we know what the color looks like in the film how we can look at different scenes in the film like SOC, Temple and still see how though a bit darker or different shade it is still Desi's ribbon coming through.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare3_zps11583213.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare3_zps11583213.jpg.html)


4. So of course I grabbed my AB Deluxe to check out it's ribbon. It seemed so much darker. I compared it to several of the film ribbons that also has a darker look. It did look most similar to one of the SOC. But I also noticed that many of the film shots that show a darker ribbon color had an almost purplish sheen to the ribbon. At the bottom I decided to take a photo of all three ribbons on my fedoras together so the lighting, angle would basically be the same. The Steel & Jones HF Vintage Project, the 50's era HJ that gunslinger did with one of his ribbons, and the AB Deluxe Beaver with the Raiders ribbon. I noticed immediately that the AB and the 50's era HJ matched very closely to what is seen in the Truck Chase Hanging from the Hood scene. A dark black-brownish color. And that the SJ fedora looked more like the Hawaiian color and had a sheen to it.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare4_zpsc3f8c7eb.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare4_zpsc3f8c7eb.jpg.html)


5. I took a couple of photos I have of the 50's era HJ that show how the felt looks different in different lightening. On the left side I show how the felt looks like a match to the Hawaiian Fedora's felt color. On the right I show how the felt looks like the SOC, Flying Wing felt color, and a couple of the promo photos. At the bottom I show how the 50's era felt color looks like an almost perfect match to Desi's Fedora felt color. But, in every case the ribbon on the 50's era HJ Fedora is way too dark. So it seems the ribbon on the 50's era HJ is maybe too much in the black hue in comparison to the purplish (?) hue/sheen of what I can now see throughout the film.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare5_zpsbb901edf.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare5_zpsbb901edf.jpg.html)


6. So now of course I'm going to check this out with all three fedoras with photos taken together with a few taken indoors with fluorescent lighting at a couple of different angles and then one outside in natural light. In the indoors part of the photo I put up a shot of Desi's ribbon. You can see that in one angle, the first two, that the SJ ribbon is very dark but with a purplish sheen. Then in the third indoor at the different angle the SJ ribbon is a perfect match to the color of Desi's ribbon. The 50's era HJ and the AB both have ribbons that stay a dark brown throughout. I also noticed that the AB ribbon is more matte looking throughout all the photos.

In the outdoor photo in natural light it is pretty amazing to see the felt of the 50's era HJ look so close to Desi's and the Hawaiian Fedora felt color. Also, to note, the felt on the SJ vintage project is also close to the Hawaiian. I would say that it has some very nice lighter undertones that come through and that in comparison the 50's era felt looks similar to it but faded. In one of the angles of the outdoor shots the AB felt color also looks very similar to Desi's felt color. At the bottom it looks like the Hawaiian could have been lifted off Ford's head and set down in place of the SJ Fedora in the photo I took above it. Look at the SJ Fedora ribbon color compared to the film and Desi's ribbon colors.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare6_zps835e4d97.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare6_zps835e4d97.jpg.html)


7. Photo compares outdoors in direct sunlight and overcast. The 50's era HJ and the AB ribbons are still looking very dark in the black-grey hue range to me in comparison to the Desi and Hawaiian fedoras. Third picture down on the right is the line up of hats from front on in overcast lighting. Sandwiched between the Hawaiian and Desi fedoras. The felt of the 50's era HJ looks most like Desi's and the felt of the SJ looks most like the Hawaiian. But the ribbon color of the SJ is almost perfect to both the Desi and Hawaiian fedoras.

At this point I am able to see that the felt of Desi's fedora has a two-tone color scheme to it with light undertones. Both the 50's era HJ and the SJ fedoras felt color have this too. I would say the SJ's felt is very rich looking and the 50's era HJ is more faded in that regards.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare7_zpsbd7fc710.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare7_zpsbd7fc710.jpg.html)


8. I took a close up of the bows of Desi's Fedora, The SJ fedora, and the AB fedora to compare against each other. I noticed the edges of the AB ribbon seem incongruent to Desi's. The edges of the SJ Fedora look pretty similar to me of Desi's and the way they present in that photo also looks a lot like what can be seen of the Hawaiian ribbon edges in the comparison I did in the second photo compare above.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare8_zpsbb89585a.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare8_zpsbb89585a.jpg.html)


One last compare. I was struck by that dark brown-purplish sheen that the ribbon can look like as seen in this film screencap and the promo film photo along with the SJ Fedora. Also, now that the edges are noticeable I can see in this photo how different the AB edges look.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/raiders-lost-ark-movie-screencapscom-748_zps06a559cd.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/raiders-lost-ark-movie-screencapscom-748_zps06a559cd.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare9_zps12924380.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare9_zps12924380.jpg.html)

So I don't know what to make of this all. If anyone who knows about ribbons or more technical details of this stuff, has info, or their own research to help figure this Raiders ribbon stuff out, please don't hesitate to share. At this point I'm confused from this in how the AB ribbon is what was used in the film.

Mac
02-07-2014, 05:29 PM
The problem with relying on Blu-ray and screen grabs as a reference for real life color is that every movie undergoes color correction and color grading, both before theatrical release and when released on home media. Essentially the colors are altered to fit the filmmaker’s vision as to how they want to portray a scene, a particular environment, or the film as a whole and when an older film is restored for home release the colors are often regraded or corrected once again for various reasons. Today this can be done electronically, but film stock is usually color graded initially with a chemical process (color timing.)

Color Correction vs Color Grading in 30 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdfbliptM3Y

George Lucas has been widely criticized for his color grading and correction of the original Star Wars trilogy when released on Blu-ray.

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIVNeHGr8Rk

Raiders underwent a similar color grading by Spielberg and/or Lucas for the Blu-ray release and there is wide agreement that the color was shifted gold to match KOTCS.

In addition, the film stock used for Raiders was subject to color deterioration over time. When Star Wars was remastered in the mid-1990s the restorers found that, despite attempts to properly store the film, “10-15% of the original color had faded.”

“As it turns out, the disease was not unique to Star Wars--films from the same era had the same affliction. The reason was because of the chemical composition of the film stock in use at the time. Prior to 1983, all negative film stocks were what archivists now call "quick fade"; Kodak was among the worst, and their negatives had to be corrected every five years to compensate for fading (often the cyan went first), and their release prints even poorer, beginning to fade to red after only five or six years. Due to pressure from filmmakers and experts (among them, Martin Scorsese), companies started developing more stable stocks in the early 80s, and by 1982 Kodak had developed its "low-fade" negative and print stocks. As a result, color negative films from 1952-1982 are in states of serious disrepair.”

Those quotes are from the saving Star Wars link above.

The bottom line is that the colors in a theatrical release may not reliably match real life colors in the film as a whole, and certainly not scene to scene, and some, like Raiders, undergo even more color revision for home video release due to various artistic reasons.

Desi’s screen used hat was exposed to a desert environment with lots of direct sunlight over (likely) several weeks, it was nearly 30 years old at the time of those photos, and we really don’t know how it was stored before it came into his possession (fishing hat?). We can’t really know how much, or if, the ribbon and/or felt have faded due to those factors.

Thanks for the photo comparisons though NB. I love seeing the various hat offerings compared, especially with the original. Keep them coming. And please treat that AB to a reblock, sir!

neutronbomb
02-07-2014, 06:50 PM
Of course. The reblock is buried somewhere on my to do list :drink:

No doubt everything you mentioned should be taken into consideration. It's seems a lot to just sweep under the table whole though. There's quite a few points that are hard for me to resolve even with the film color issues. Like even with all that Desi's fishing hat may have gone through and all the film grading and regrading and corrections and decaying, somehow it's still a near perfect match to the film fedora. And then also the physical non-color attributes of the ribbon.

Mac
02-07-2014, 11:22 PM
Desi’s hat is either an original screen used article or a very, very good forgery – which is possible but I think unlikely.

Regarding the structural differences you see between the screen used and the AB ribbon, I agree that the photos of your AB ribbon look a bit wonky, but the lighting seems quite bright and harsh, and at an angle that makes deep, dark shadows.

Here’s a photo ribbon that has been used by HJ intermittently over the years for the Poet.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJRibbon_zps2ce4cc61.jpg

It’s an old photo that was posted on another site many years ago. I used it because I’m too lazy to take photos of the AB ribbon that I have, but they are both identical in structure and color. One thing that stands out about this ribbon is that one edge is considerably wider than the other. That is not uncommon, but I’ve never seen another ribbon that has the wider edge that is that much wider than the narrow edge.

Here is the screen used hat with the above ribbon resized, rotated 180 degrees, and superimposed over it. It seems to match pretty well structurally.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHat-HJRibbonComparison_zps32f24fe3.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHatRibbonCloseup_zpsc5387f72.jpg

Borrowing your earlier photo NB, this is how I see the difference:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonEdgeCompare_zpsfeb39837.jpg

RCSignals
02-08-2014, 05:04 AM
I don't know if the bound edges can even be determined that accurately considering all the varables

Can we agree at least that the ribbon was a fine grain, mid brown in colour? Lol


John Penman has a great 'vintage' ribbon and vintage ribbon made on vintage machines

Gunslinger has had some nice ribbon in limited quantity as well

bendingoak
02-08-2014, 05:54 PM
Heres a couple of photos for you to show the ribbon in a different light.

http://i57.tinypic.com/xf2gli.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ed1uhl.jpg

Both two different lighting and two different cameras.


But the ribbon too dark! doesn't have the right under tone.:roll eyes:


This is why I say you can't use screen grabs to prove or debunk.

Mac
02-10-2014, 09:37 PM
There is another elephant in the room here. How accurate and true-to-life are the colors in Desi’s photos?

Was the screen used hat lit with warm color temp bulbs or a cool? Were the camera's white balance settings correct for the lighting? Accurate color rending can difficult to nail, especially for amateur photographers, particularly when it’s not a principal concern.

We really have to keep in mind that we are comparing screen caps from a film that has been color graded and corrected, likely under artistic license, with amateur snap shots whose color fidelity is questionable, of a dusty and distressed hat whose ribbon and felt have almost certainly faded in the 30 year gap between photos. It’s clear as well that the screen used hat photos have been digitally manipulated, as they contain a watermark.

With regard to color, it really is an apples to oranges comparison. Which set of photos, if any, is true to what the hat looked like in person in 1980?

With that said ;D;), here are some close up screen caps from the Blu-ray, the first two of which are certainly the Desi hat (assuming it’s genuine), which really seems to me to look and behave a lot like the AB ribbon. The first two are in sunlight and are clearly distressed with Fuller’s earth or whatever, and the other two are much darker indoor scenes with ribbons that are apparently undistressed (or at least not with Fuller's earth.)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersBluRayHat-3_zps3fe3b8e4.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersBluRayHat-2_zpsc5a03b11.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersBluRayHat-4_zpsf14fbea8.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersBluRayHat-5_zps0d58b249.jpg

I’ve cropped these in Photoshop so they will fit here at full resolution, but haven’t changed any of the brightness or color values. You can find the originals at full size here:

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/indiana-jones-the-complete-adventures-blu-ray-review/


Here’s a thread discussing the changes made in the color timing of the Raiders Blu-ray:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/632870/#TopicPost632870

Gunslinger
02-10-2014, 09:40 PM
Good stuff - thanks Mac.

Mac
02-11-2014, 04:15 PM
We know the guy on the left here is wearing a hat with the AB ribbon. Looks remarkably similar to me.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg

Indiego Jones
02-11-2014, 04:47 PM
We know the guy on the left here is wearing a hat with the AB ribbon. Looks remarkably similar to me.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg

Yeah, and even the felt color looks very close. :rolleyes:

Mac
02-11-2014, 07:18 PM
again, I don't think you can use screen grabs to prove or disprove.
I agree John; that’s really the argument I’ve been making. The screen caps from the film may or may not reflect true life colors and the same goes for the photos of the screen used hat.

But if you’re going to take screen caps from a film, with lighting conditions and camera settings and color grading that you can’t be sure of, and compare it with amateur photos, yours and someone else’s, with lighting conditions and camera settings that may not match what you’re comparing it to, then some of them may not match. But a lot photos of that ribbon, and screen caps from another film with the exact same ribbon, do match, and match well. So you can't discount it either.



Yeah, and even the felt color looks very close. :rolleyes:
If you agree we can’t determine the true color of the ribbon from screen caps, then you can’t really determine the color of the felt either, right? At best you can say, “this hat matches this scene from the film, in this particular lighting condition.”



And LC ribbon wasn't the same as in Raiders.
How do we know that? Screen caps or anecdotes? :rolleyes:

Mac
02-11-2014, 09:36 PM
Come on guys, the photo above clearly shows a lighter ribbon in Raiders.

Kurt, which ribbon in Raiders? :);)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompare23_zps1c6adcb3.jpg

Some scenes present lighter and some darker.

The AB ribbon has that peculiar characteristic where it can look and photograph either very dark or much lighter, depending on the light and distressing. There doesn’t seem to be any other ribbon that combines that trait and low sheen. Even Garrison’s ribbon, which is dyed the same color as the AB ribbon, has a noticeable sheen in some lighting. The AB ribbon also has a very slight, very subtle purple undertone in some light, but not nearly as much as some other ribbons.



What I got from the "origin" story above is that Marc and Steve eyeballed what they thought the right colour is to match the movie. We don't know what hat Bernie looked at (safely ruling out Desi's) from which of 3 movies, or how "close enough" his criteria was.
I believe that's a good summary. :)

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 09:43 PM
You're missing something important. But I'm double parked on an iPhone and in meetings the next few days. Will lay out some stuff when I get some time.

Indiego Jones
02-12-2014, 09:50 PM
Kurt, which ribbon in Raiders? :);)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompare23_zps1c6adcb3.jpg

Some scenes present lighter and some darker.

I believe that's a good summary. :)

I'm losing the topic of this thread:
It's about the color of the ribbon? Some find it too dark?

John, maybe, the ribbon on the screenused hat was dyed slightly lighter, than the one you use todays.
A very small fraction of lighter brown shade... It's possible. No biggie, really.
Even felt batches, from one to another, dyed with the same recipe, in the same place, comes differently. Sometimes the outside weather affects dying.

Ok, I know nothing about lenses, filters and stage lighting conditions, etc...
So, (here comes a craaazy -and probably impossible- idea) it's possible to take pictures of the AB ribbon with a camera, set with the very same lenses/filters configuration that SLOCOMBE used to shot the movie, back in 1980 ?¿?¿?¿?¿?
ok, I want to be the first in laughing at this: :D :D :D
I know, ridiculous idea. Sorry :-[





And LC ribbon wasn't the same as in Raiders.
How do we know that? Screen caps or anecdotes? :rolleyes:

I don't know, you tell me... :rolleyes:


Here’s a photo ribbon that has been used by HJ intermittently over the years for the Poet.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJRibbon_zps2ce4cc61.jpg

It’s an old photo that was posted on another site many years ago. I used it because I’m too lazy to take photos of the AB ribbon that I have, but they are both identical in structure and color.

Mac
02-13-2014, 12:50 AM
I don't know, you tell me... :rolleyes:


Quote Originally Posted by Mac
Here’s a photo ribbon that has been used by HJ intermittently over the years for the Poet.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJRibbon_zps2ce4cc61.jpg

It’s an old photo that was posted on another site many years ago. I used it because I’m too lazy to take photos of the AB ribbon that I have, but they are both identical in structure and color.


The caption came with the photo and the photo is not mine. I'd bet whoever wrote the caption relied on screen caps & anecdotes though. ;)

But well played sir, well played! ;D

neutronbomb
02-13-2014, 02:28 AM
So basically some person took an HJ fedora that we don't know the year of and removed the standard ribbon that it came with and took a picture of it. You used it to do a compare that you feel shows it's a match to Desi's. Is this basically the deal?


Desi’s hat is either an original screen used article or a very, very good forgery – which is possible but I think unlikely.

Regarding the structural differences you see between the screen used and the AB ribbon, I agree that the photos of your AB ribbon look a bit wonky, but the lighting seems quite bright and harsh, and at an angle that makes deep, dark shadows.

Here’s a photo ribbon that has been used by HJ intermittently over the years for the Poet.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJRibbon_zps2ce4cc61.jpg

It’s an old photo that was posted on another site many years ago. I used it because I’m too lazy to take photos of the AB ribbon that I have, but they are both identical in structure and color. One thing that stands out about this ribbon is that one edge is considerably wider than the other. That is not uncommon, but I’ve never seen another ribbon that has the wider edge that is that much wider than the narrow edge.

Here is the screen used hat with the above ribbon resized, rotated 180 degrees, and superimposed over it. It seems to match pretty well structurally.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHat-HJRibbonComparison_zps32f24fe3.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHatRibbonCloseup_zpsc5387f72.jpg

Borrowing your earlier photo NB, this is how I see the difference:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonEdgeCompare_zpsfeb39837.jpg

Mac
02-14-2014, 05:23 AM
You weren’t being ignored NB, I’ve been busy and buried under six inches of snow. To answer your question, the photo that I posted was not one that I took myself.

I have to back up a bit here and give some background. Back in the 80s and 90s people were buying Indy feds from Swales at HJ and sometimes those hats had a dark brown ribbon that, due to its unusual properties, a consensus of gear heads agreed was the ribbon used in Raiders. HJ was not consistent in using this ribbon, for whatever reason, and there was quite a long stretch where people received Poets with ribbons that were way too light in color. HJ would tell Indy customers that that particular ribbon was unavailable, and then, out of the blue, it would suddenly begin appearing on HJs again. The photo that I posted here was posted elsewhere, long ago, as an example of the desirable ribbon to look for when buying an HJ. I reposted here because it matches the AB ribbon that I have and was too lazy to photograph.

On a related note, back on page 4, Indiego Jones was kind enough to post some quotes about the genesis of the AB ribbon discovery. One of those was from Marc circa 2009:

“It looked SPOT ON! Both compared to what we saw on screen as well as what we saw on vintage HJs. To us there was no question that this is IT.”

One way Marc identified the ribbon, to his satisfaction, is that it matched that sought after ribbon that appeared on vintage HJs, not just ones from the Raiders era, but on various Poets sold in the 80s and 90s too.

In addition, HJ has used the same ribbon in recent years. At one time, when Steve was reblocking HJs for Magnoli, he replaced the stock HJ ribbon with AB ribbon, but at some point he commented (at least once, but possibly two or more times) that HJ was supplying the ribbon for the reblock directly to him and that they must have switched to using THE ribbon again because it was the same ribbon he and Marc used. A few days ago on COW, someone posted a comparison of the AB/Penman ribbon and current HJ ribbon, which I will (reluctantly) repost here. AB left, HJ right:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/AB-PenmanRibbonLampHJPoetRibbonR_zps2fabf3df.jpg


Here’s the vintage HJ ribbon I posted earlier (top) compared to AB ribbon – it’s hard for me capture the true color, but trust me (no really, trust me!) in certain light it appears just about as light brown as the old HJ, which may or may not be faded, but the color is irrelevant here (and my photography blows), the structure is what’s important :

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJRibbonOverABRibbonCompare3_zps462ff289.jpg


I should also point out that, to see that shade of brown of the vintage HJ in the Ab ribbon, it helps to remove the ribbon from the hat as the brown in the hat tends to affect the hue of the ribbon. Obviously I annotated the relevant structural characteristics and you can see the slanted stitches and unusually wide edge. In addition, on the opposite side of the ribbon, those slanted stitches on the wide edge become straight:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ABRibbonFlipSide_zps2176fd32.jpg


Which is relevant because they appear straight on the screen used hat:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHatRibbonCloseupENLARGED2x_zpsaf5 72df9.jpg


It should be noted that I’ve posted here (at least!) three photos containing AB ribbon and in each the ribbon presents a different hue of brown.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 04:55 PM
I just read over the boot section about the AB boot. Now I don't look at most of the other gear as closely as I do the hat. even though the photos in that thread is compelling it is not truth of what color the boots were. The films has been processed to be converted over to blu ray. You comparing a artificially aged boot with brand new one. compelling photos not proof or fact.

Lets just say that your photo evidence is correct. That doesn't change anything with Marc has stated. He did work with the original boot maker, he did work with them to match the boot that he saw on the film.

You own argument can be used for the big reason why you can't go by photos or screen grabs. Most people thought the Boots were darker but now you think they are because of blu ray. When they come out with something new, then someone will say your wrong. See, can't use them as fact or proof.

admin
02-16-2014, 02:17 PM
This thread is for discussing the ribbon used on the Raider's fedora. While it is acceptable to use Adventurebilt's Raiders ribbon to compare against as they have made the claim that they use the original source for the ribbon that was used in the movie, discussions revolving around whether or not that is true and John Penman's defense of his and Adventurebilt's claim in using the original Raiders ribbon is to take place in this thread Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

neutronbomb
02-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Here's a post I found interesting in the way the HJ stock ribbon is attached.


This is what I'm saying. It's all about what ribbon was used on that hat, and whether it was a stock factory ribbon of the day, sewn on by the factory. From what I have seen of the HJ hats of the Raiders era, their factory ribbon is the same as what we see on screen. There are also other things that make me doubt that it was a special ribbon in any way. Such as how it was sewn onto the body.

eg. Here is a Herbert Johnson from 1976 compared with the actual screen used Raiders hat. One can see how the factory attaches the ribbon to the hat, and how the Raiders hat came to be the way it is. The tack points, the folds, the end of the ribbon all match up. Look at the little kinks halfway up the ribbon at the front and back, and the bulges - both due to the particular way the ribbon has been cinched. and folded. The way the top front of the ribbon is left exposed above the bow. The end of the ribbon at the bottom - it comes to the same point proportionate to the bow, and as you can see on the screen hat, was left frayed at EXACTLY the same points. The bow itself is constructed in an identical way (you obviously can't see the bow of the hat I have in this shot) - but the construction and amount of trim at the back is the same. My point is, I can duplicate the ribbon of the Raiders hat very precisely, by copying a ~factory~ hat/ribbon of the day. There are other things, but I will lay that out in a proper article sometime soon.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribbonattachment_hjcompare_zpsd56432ad.jpg~origina l

Gunslinger
02-17-2014, 09:55 PM
Yes, I'd forgotten I posted this a long time ago. It was one of the things I was going to bring up. It's basically showing how incredibly similar a HJ factory hat of the era is to the Screen Used / film hat. I've attached a better verson of the shot so you can see the details of the ribbon better.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20120219-161052-2000px_zpsef665034.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20120219-161052-2000px_zpsef665034.jpg.html) And a thumb to click on for even more detail: http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120219-161052-2000px_zpsef665034.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20120219-161052-2000px_zpsef665034.jpg.html)

And the same image as above but in better resolution: http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_RaidersBow_zps258655c7.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/RaidersBow_zps258655c7.jpg.html)

- Note how on the left side of the shot, where the bow is / was tacked on, the factory hat has been affixed at an angle that overlaps the grooves of the ribbon because of the way it was pulled tight in the factory. Same on the film / Desi's hat (and also on the S&J for that matter).
- Also note how the fold in the ribbon protrudes at the front edge of the bow, and causes a ripple in those vertical ribbon lines?
- Note EXACTLY where the end of the tacked-on ribbon ends, and where it protrudes on the factory hat vs. Desi's / film hat.

To me, all of this tallys with the POSSIBILITY (at the VERY least) that the film hat had a factory-installed ribbon. Otherwise, Swayles matched the exact factory way of affixing them incredibly closely.

- Incidentally, does the structure of THIS ribbon look the same as other ribbons we have seen? (I have not compared it closely to others, just taken pictures for other reasons)

Gunslinger
02-17-2014, 10:03 PM
Ok, lets have a look at some ribbons. These are sitting on an original Herbert Johnson "Sable" body from the late 1970. It is unfaded, as the colour outside matches the inside very closely. Observations re colour, texture, etc?

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20101212-144024-1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20101212-144024-1.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20101212-144024-1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20101212-144024-1.jpg.html)

(I can upload higher resolution versions of any of my photos, by the way, and am VERY happy to provide anyone who asks for the original NEF raw camera files. These images were taken with a Nikon D700 using the NEF+JPG setting. No curves were adjusted on the jpgs.)

Gunslinger
02-17-2014, 10:05 PM
LOL. Ok, lets try that again. This time I will atttach the right image!

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg.html)

(I can upload higher resolution versions of any of my photos, by the way, and am VERY happy to provide anyone who asks for the original NEF raw camera files. These images were taken with a Nikon D700 using the NEF+JPG setting. No curves were adjusted on the jpgs.)

Gunslinger
02-18-2014, 06:33 AM
Same exact ribbons. Zero Photoshopping. Note the colour shift:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-100208_zps6ba6a6e0.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-100208_zps6ba6a6e0.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140209-100208_zps6ba6a6e0.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-100208_zps6ba6a6e0.jpg.html) from shown above: http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-100214_zps5e8b970d.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg.html) and again versus as shown above: http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101744_zpse496862f.jpg.html)

The aperture of the camera hasn't changed at all. So, what's going on here?

Polarisation. Polarising filters are very common in film production.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_%28photography%29
http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/filters/FilterBooklet.pdf
http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2012/08/polarizing-filters-powerful-filmmaking-tools/

Now, Douglas Slocombe wasn't necessarily using polarising filters, but the interesting thing that many of us have noted in watching Raiders is how much the blacks are crushed at that end of the colour curve. That is, much of the time, the DARK BROWNS are crushed into BLACK. Everyone knows that the Indiana Jones' leather jacket is brown, right? So why much of the time does it appear almost black? It can pretty much only be because of the photography - either the chosen film stock itself crushed the blacks, they crushed the blacks in the lab, or filtration (either polarising or another sort of filter) crushed the blacks.

In American Cinematographer, I've found out some tech data about how he was shooting, and what his approach was. I will upload those pages I took photos of when I get a chance.

What's this got to do with the Raiders ribbon? The colour. I can't figure out for the life of me how it could be super dark brown. If it were, how do we end up with shots like these? Here is a particular shot where the jacket is illuminated to it's real life chocolatey colour. And note the colour of the ribbon.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zpsd6aa55e7.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zpsd6aa55e7.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_hawaii-hat-birds-2_zpsd6aa55e7.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zpsd6aa55e7.jpg.html)

So what my thinking is, is that the ribbon is actually a much lighter brown than many people think. That is only appears a brackish browny/charcoal colour because of a film-based illusion. Much like how an otherwise obviously BROWN jacket ends up like this on film:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/2870593882_0405de2353_o_zpsc40862eb.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/2870593882_0405de2353_o_zpsc40862eb.jpg.html)

Desi's hat is actually interesting too. Someone made the point (Mac?) that you can't really trust those shots re colour. I agree. I'd say that they show the hat as much DARKER than it is in real life. How could it not be? Has anyone seen a sable hat grow darker? Any hat? Of course not. It FADES with age. Do I think Desi's hat's ribbon is in fact much lighter than we see in these shots:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Fedora1_zpsae7acce3.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Fedora1_zpsae7acce3.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Fedora6_zpsf702e14a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Fedora6_zpsf702e14a.jpg.html)

So look at the Sable HJ hats above - mine and the film hat, and compare it with Desi's hat. Then adjust the ribbon to match in your minds eye.

Anyway, these are some of the things I was alluding to earlier. Sure, there are illusions, but we can understand them, and actually use them as tools for figuring out the likely true colour of the original Raiders hat ribbon.

Mac
02-18-2014, 02:20 PM
What's this got to do with the Raiders ribbon? The colour. I can't figure out for the life of me how it could be super dark brown. If it were, how do we end up with shots like these? Here is a particular shot where the jacket is illuminated to it's real life chocolatey colour. And note the colour of the ribbon.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg.html)

I don’t discount that filters play some part in the ribbon differences from scene to scene, but in the Hawaii shots I believe the culprit is exposure.

The jungle shots are a mixture of dark shaded canopy with bright sunlight pouring through in some areas of the frame. The camera exposure settings are necessarily a compromise, because some areas in the shot are super bright, while others are super dark. In order to reveal detail in the dark shady areas (and avoid crushed blacks) the sunny areas are overexposed, which makes a normally dark ribbon look much lighter and exaggerates the undertone purple hue.

The photo below shows the exact same AB, photographed in different lighting conditions. The bottom one is severely overexposed. Notice how light and purple shifted the ribbon becomes compared to the top shot.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ABinDifferentLight-1_zps242205b5.jpg


Other shots of ABs with the same ribbon - which we know appears dark brown, or even black, in normal light:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonExposure_zpsc368fb15.jpg

bendingoak
02-18-2014, 03:16 PM
First your doing a lot of assuming. First, just because Swales used a sewing maching to sew on his ribbon and what's the number one sewing machine used to sew hats? Just like you are assuming that since it was sewn on by a sewing machine we can also assume that they might have used the same type of sewing machine. If we do say they did in fact used the same sewing machine, this has nothing to do with the ribbon they used. 2nd , and I say it again. How can you use a item like the Desi hat when you have no proof that it is in fact a screen used item. 3rd, you can't use a distressed hat in a old movie that has been proccessed so many times and that you think you can match up th condition exactly. 4th, what Mac said.

Again, a lot of assuming , which none is fact.

Indiego Jones
02-18-2014, 03:23 PM
On the ribbon attachment to the hat, that's pretty much the same way we do it.
We tried to replicate the same hat stitch by stitch.

The polarizing filter theory is very convincing.
That would explain the variation on the gear coloring through the movie (hat, jacket).

Here are a couple of pictures I've taken in the past years, trying to understand and study color variations on VINTAGE felts and ribbons.
I've found that felt color affects the ribbon color perception. So, same ribbon on different felts, can reflect ribbon color differently.
This pictures were taken WITHOUT polarizing filter (I haven't one). And under different light conditions.

HJ Homburg (1960's)
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/indiegojones/DSCN5696b_zps58379bcf.png (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/indiegojones/media/DSCN5696b_zps58379bcf.png.html)
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/indiegojones/HJhomburg60s_zps70ec3e32.png (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/indiegojones/media/HJhomburg60s_zps70ec3e32.png.html)
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/indiegojones/KGrHqNlME9mUhLIBGBPvkI1dk460_57_zpse4383189.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/indiegojones/media/KGrHqNlME9mUhLIBGBPvkI1dk460_57_zpse4383189.jpg.ht ml)

Our HJ "Raiders felt" replica with HJ late 70's ribbon
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/indiegojones/DSCN7223_zps684fb589.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/indiegojones/media/DSCN7223_zps684fb589.jpg.html)
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/indiegojones/DSCN7216_zps006913f2.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/indiegojones/media/DSCN7216_zps006913f2.jpg.html)

More to come when I have the chance.

Indiego Jones
02-18-2014, 03:29 PM
Sorry, a clarification: The HJ ribbons showed on the previous post are "chocolate brown". Not dark brown.

Gunslinger
02-18-2014, 08:09 PM
1. I agree we can't ever know who sewed the ribbon on. I just thought it was a very interesting match and relevant to any sort of "custom ribbon" argument because the attachment itself was as common as it gets.
2. Everyone here has said its highly unlikely that Desi's hat is a fake. I guess the debate on that would be a different thread. People are free to discount it in any consideration about the ribbon. But I'm just looking for ways for the pieces of this puzzle to fit together.
3. It's tricky, but not impossible. "I'm workin' on it, I'm workin' on it!"
4. Yeah, but Mac says A LOT! (J/k Mac! :) )

So re 4. Yes I agree exposure plays a part too. Both in what comes out on film, and how aperture affects the rendered detail in the dark part of the spectrum. Especially in the days before Kodak used T cell grain technology if I recall my training correctly. Anyway, I take Macs photos, but to my eye the AB ribbon looks too washed out compared to the shots in Hawaii. I think it is too dark with not enough brown to be a match. The richer tones of Diego's look much closer. But is that dead on either?

There are a lot of 'moving parts' here, so I've been thinking of some ways to reverse engineer observations and components to arrive at something solid. One way is to replicate that forest with a real vintage Herbert Johnson, with an AB ribbon, and see how it behaves in mixed light with and without filtration. Then full blasting sun to match Tunisia with and without. Ditto other ribbons, vintage and modern.

I will add another point that's in lone with Mac's and Diego's. The contrast between dark items captured on film and the necessary shutting down of the aperture to avoid overexposure of the bright parts makes browns look black (think the ribbon and jacket in Tunisia). Add filtration to cut out bouncing bright light and you have another reason it skews into dullness.

Yet another factor again - hat ribbons themselves reflect light. Especially the ridges. Scenes like the shots Mac showed in the temple are a good example of what to me looks like (polarised) filtration at work - the general image has the traits, and the ribbon is crushed from murky to super black. See my shots above for how easy it is to do that - make a brown ribbon bright black.

neutronbomb
02-18-2014, 08:31 PM
I'll be spending 10 days in Kuai in the middle of March. Tell me what kind of camera to get and I'll take some pictures.

Gunslinger
02-18-2014, 08:33 PM
You lucky bugger.

Mac
02-18-2014, 08:45 PM
1. I agree we can't ever know who sewed the ribbon on. I just thought it was a very interesting match and relevant to any sort of "custom ribbon" argument because the attachment itself was as common as it gets.

According to Swales, he changed the ribbon – while Ford and Spielberg waited - at least on the first hat. ;)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/SwalesLetter-large_zps905dbbe4.jpg



I'll be spending 10 days in Kuai in the middle of March. Tell me what kind of camera to get and I'll take some pictures.

Panavison! :D

Gunslinger
02-18-2014, 08:51 PM
:D

I was going to suggest "film", but hey. :)

Ok cool. Good documentation.

neutronbomb
02-19-2014, 12:10 AM
I wonder why that's a different accounting than Debra tells.

You guys are funny:D

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 12:43 AM
What was hers again?

Mac
02-19-2014, 01:49 AM
OK, here’s why we can’t rely on screen caps for true-to-life color information; the first cap is Gunslinger’s Blu-ray (which is cropped):

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zps67280279.jpg

Same shot, from 2003 HDTV broadcast of Raiders:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersOfTheLostArk2003HD19-33-04_zps46a3ba08.jpg

Same shot, from the old DVD release:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersBirdsHawaiiDVD_zps7f58c4de.jpg

You can see that the Blu-ray’s resolution is really very fine, but that has nothing to do with color. The film was remastered and (re)color graded ( a process involving artistic choice) for Blu-ray. You can see the scene is much brighter in Blu-ray and the colors are more vivid and vibrant – because those elements were digitally enhanced. Or "improved." Artistic license to "improve" the movie, but not necessarily, or likely, what it looked like to the human eye in person.

The same type of thing happened when Lucas remastered Star Wars for Blu-ray – which looks gorgeous, but it is not what the film (or real life) looked like originally. It also caused all sorts of color problems. Google “Star Wars lobsterman.”

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/632870/#TopicPost632870

The HDTV and DVD look very, very similar. No word yet on VHS.

RCSignals
02-19-2014, 02:12 AM
Was that Swayles letter statement actually on the Herbert Johnson web site? Or, os it another thing that mysteriously appeared somewhere to support a theory?

Mac
02-19-2014, 02:19 AM
That was the standard letter that HJ sent out with Poets. Lots of fans recieved the exact same letter.

RCSignals
02-19-2014, 03:35 AM
Ok thanks. With everything that has happened surrounding all these things I had to ask We have to assume then that the statement is legitimate and not exaggerated.

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 04:01 AM
OK, here’s why we can’t rely on screen caps for true-to-life color information; the first cap is Gunslinger’s Blu-ray (which is cropped)... You can see that the Blu-ray’s resolution is really very fine, but that has nothing to do with color. The film was remastered and (re)color graded ( a process involving artistic choice) for Blu-ray. You can see the scene is much brighter in Blu-ray and the colors are more vivid and vibrant – because those elements were digitally enhanced. Or "improved." Artistic license to "improve" the movie, but not necessarily, or likely, what it looked like to the human eye in person. The HDTV and DVD look very, very similar. No word yet on VHS.

Damn! I used to HAVE that VHS!

Anyway, yes, look, this doesn't surprise me. I did basically all of my hat research on a combination of the DVD and HDTV releases. But the bottom line is that the newer grading looks a helluva lot more like the real-life Sable hat than the old master, and that's what we are looking for, aren't we? To decrease any margin of error?

Because when I look at this vintage late 1970s Sable Herbert Johnson body through a polarising filter:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140209-101722_zps0458f111.jpg.html)

I see this:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zps67280279.jpg

And NOT this:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersOfTheLostArk2003HD19-33-04_zps46a3ba08.jpg

I think the Raiders Bluray is one example of grading being far more true to life than the original. Which is why I think any darker ribbon is too dark for duplicating the "real" Raiders hat - because it was matched to the way it appeared. I think the actual ribbon was much more of a mid brown.

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 05:28 AM
Visited my old film school last weekend. Found this, and another issue shortly thereafter with interviews with Douglas Slocombe:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/IMG_0804_zps6b5def88.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/IMG_0804_zps6b5def88.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/IMG_0826_zpsac1e4696.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/IMG_0826_zpsac1e4696.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/IMG_0827_zpsd611d0c0.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/IMG_0827_zpsd611d0c0.jpg.html)

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 06:45 AM
http://125px.com/docs/motionpicture/kodak/ti0835.pdf

bendingoak
02-19-2014, 03:20 PM
We know the guy on the left here is wearing a hat with the AB ribbon. Looks remarkably similar to me.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg


so blue ray is more to true color, then how come this shot of Steve Delks AB hat is lighter then what I know is not the true color as we both use the same felt?????

again, you can't go by screen grabs as proof or fact.

Mac
02-19-2014, 07:24 PM
Good stuff with American Cinematographer, I’d love to see the whole article.


But the bottom line is that the newer grading looks a helluva lot more like the real-life Sable hat than the old master, and that's what we are looking for, aren't we?

The problem is, though the opening Blu-ray scenes are obviously (and arguably over) brightened and the colors tweaked, in the rest of the movie the colors are about the same and many are even darker than the DVD – even in full sunlight.

In each set of photos, the first is DVD and the second is Blu-ray:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/032-DVD_zps934dc0bd.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/74-BR_zpsf054821d.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/039-DVD_zps466f6ed9.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/93-BR_zpsa2072f4c.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/184-DVD_zps63445841.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/435-BR_zps9e8baeb4.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/188-DVD_zpsd16a6722.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/443-BR_zps43afcd21.jpg

In those last two shots the DVD looks closer to the Sable hat you posted earlier. The Blu-ray is actually darker in full sun than the DVD.

Again, I believe the color grading is an artistic choice rather than an attempt to mimic true-to-life color.

RCSignals
02-19-2014, 07:48 PM
How consistent are dye lots of hat felt from batch to batch? Dye lots of ribbon?

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 07:50 PM
I actually agree with you both. Grading is an artistic choice and plays a huge role in creating the look of a film. With the re-grade, it looks like the producers have tried to reduce the harshness of the original footage and even things out a bit. Return the black skews of the Eastman stock to browns. You will notice with ToD, his jacket appears brown, as does the ribbon (at least more brown) - by then the film stock had changed. Eastman liked to reduce contrast over the run of any given range. But I could digress for hours. Believe it or not I have spent many weeks / months of my life in postproduction suites in the role of technician, director and producer of TVC's and short films. So I get it.

However, I also have an eye for certain effects and their causes, be it in-camera or post. What the variables are, so as to look for ways to reverse engineer the process.

I am very confident of being able to replicate the Hawaii shots with a chocolate brown ribbon and sable HJ. I am very confident of being able to replicate Tunisia with the same hat and ribbon.

However, I have my doubts of being able to replicate the same Hawaii shots with a very very dark brown ribbon like the AB. There just isn't the colour in it to pull it up in line with the level of real-life-accurate exposure of the hat body. Which makes me doubt it could be that dark in real life at the time.

In this circumstance, I believe it is much easier for a lighter ribbon to have been made appear dark than vice-versa.

Gunslinger
02-19-2014, 08:30 PM
so blue ray is more to true color, then how come this shot of Steve Delks AB hat is lighter then what I know is not the true color as we both use the same felt?????

I was speaking to the Hawaii shot above, but yes, again, they are BOTH representations of reality. And you make a good point - if we can readjust a series of shots back to something approaching reality based on how accurate a rendering of the felt colour is, we will have a more accurate rendition of the ribbon colour. This is exactly what I think we ALREADY HAVE with those Hawaii shots.

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 01:22 AM
again, this is all selective speculation.

Gunslinger
02-20-2014, 01:48 AM
again, this is all selective speculation. ... again, you can't go by screen grabs as proof or fact.

Yet isn't that what happened with both the dark brown ribbon (and the boots)? From earlier recounts (not sure what thread they live in now), people approximated based on a "vibe". So you can't say it one way but not the other.

So having said that, if someone (anyone) hadn't taken the right factors into account, we'd have the wrong colour. Yet here we have a shot that most matches the actual Sable hat colour (unlike most other shots in the film). You cant selectively discount that. It's actually more logical to do the opposite, and discount any judge of colour from the other shots, which show the hat as a weird murky darkish washed out colour and the ribbon as charcoalish.

Gunslinger
02-20-2014, 02:25 AM
I wonder why that's a different accounting than Debra tells.

Just read the Nadoolman quotes thread. You're right. Completely different. Definitely doesn't jive with the far more dramatic "Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford walked into a hat shop", which sounds more like the start of a dirty joke. :) (I kid.)

But seriously, there are so many stories going on about who said what re this gear, it's more like "Rashomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon)"

Mac
02-20-2014, 01:28 PM
In another thread NB has posted several Nadoolman interviews. Though not included in that thread, near the end of the Mike French & Gilles Verschuere interview, there was a reference germane to this discussion which bears repeating:


Q: With the advent of digital technology, filmmakers now have the ability to manipulate the frame in post-production, including the costumes at will, whether they merely want to change the color of the outfit or a piece of it, or change or remove a costume piece entirely. As President of the Costume Designer's Guild, can you tell us what the Guild's position is on the use of digital manipulation in films today and what the Guild is doing to protect their artistry and craftsmanship from digital alteration or erasure?

DN: The Costume Designers Guild looks forward to even greater collaboration with the director. There is no stopping the future and no stopping technology – we embrace it. Our member Ngila Dickson designed the costumes for Lord of the Rings. She said there was nary one costume, which appeared in the film exactly the same colour as it looked on the set. Every frame of LOTR was hand colored.

http://www.theraider.net/features/interviews/deborah_nadoolman.php


We know that the film has been altered from its previous appearance. We don't know if the colors of the film as a whole are more realistic or less realistic than before, or totally arbitrary from scene to scene.

Leaving aside the film, I'm curious Kurt about the baseline felt color that you are using for comparison. Could you tell us more about it? Is there more than one sample? If there is more than one, are they identical in shade? Do you know the date of manufacture? How can you be sure it is from the same felt supplier as the film? How do you account for fade due to age?

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 02:56 PM
In another thread NB has posted several Nadoolman interviews. Though not included in that thread, near the end of the Mike French & Gilles Verschuere interview, there was a reference germane to this discussion which bears repeating:



http://www.theraider.net/features/interviews/deborah_nadoolman.php


We know that the film has been altered from its previous appearance. We don't know if the colors of the film as a whole are more realistic or less realistic than before, or totally arbitrary from scene to scene.

Leaving aside the film, I'm curious Kurt about the baseline felt color that you are using for comparison. Could you tell us more about it? Is there more than one sample? If there is more than one, are they identical in shade? Do you know the date of manufacture? How can you be sure it is from the same felt supplier as the film? How do you account for fade due to age?


Mac, very good point. Everyone assumes that the sable color that HJ uses stayed the same though out.

TheExit148
02-20-2014, 04:17 PM
I've been somewhat silent in this, as I've been trying to find something worth while to post. IMO, the ribbon colour is dark brown, and the light changes it way too much to be able to hit the nail on the head. The desi hat to me, is 100% authentic. I don't think a site like that is going to post info like that without necessary evidence to back up the claim, and a collector isn't going to shell out $$$ to a site like that unless it's authentic. Just my opinion.
Anyway, back to my findings.

I found this through a basic google search of "Adventurebilt Deluxe". I was too lazy to type in the URL (google auto filled in what I was looking for haha) and saw this pic in "images" which lead to an Indylouge board post.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p163/GCR5/GEAR/pictures001.jpg

The first pic shows all the different hats WITH different ribbons (including two AB hats) and look how brown they look. Then when the poster goes in closer, the ribbons darken, to the point where they look totally different.

Now, taking the blu-ray screen capture (which I think is closet we have to proper colour grading and detail) and the two AB hats in the post, you can see that they almost match perfectly in colour. The screen cap is a bit brighter (way more light on the hat), but the ribbons are almost the same.

http://i.imgur.com/kf4ugJL.jpg

Here is the post to see the remaining pics for reference.
http://indylounge.proboards.com/thread/368

- - - Updated - - -

I went back and adjusted only the brightness and contrast of the AB hats layer, and they are now almost identical (at least on my monitor). Couldn't add it in my previous post as I missed the editing timeframe. To me, looking at these hats and the screen cap, it's hard to say that what AB uses is not the right colour.

http://i.imgur.com/OtuoWg3.jpg

TheExit148
02-20-2014, 04:30 PM
Sorry one more thing. I know it's hard to judge screen caps and photos based on lenses, lighting, etc, but to me I think this helps a lot.

neutronbomb
02-20-2014, 04:57 PM
I'll change the settings to give 7 min for editing a post.

What is the Fedora that is second from the right?

Regarding the HJ letter Mac provided. It is disappointing to see what now reads like a fictional account when compared against Debs interviews. Basically it would mean she lied and instead of the costume designer it was Steven Spielberg who went and found and chose the hat.

Indiego Jones
02-20-2014, 05:49 PM
Regarding the HJ letter Mac provided. It is disappointing to see what now reads like a fictional account when compared against Debs interviews. Basically it would mean she lied and instead of the costume designer it was Steven Spielberg who went and found and chose the hat.

I'm sorry for all the Mr. Swales fans, but I trust Deb Nadoolman.
She was the Costume Designer for the movie. The hat was her choice, even the custom alterations made to the fedora.
At best, Mr. Swales only made the custom changes she asked.

Herbert Johnson (Swaine Adeney), after the success of the franchise, decided to take advantage of it.
Mr. Swales, as an employee, agreed to sign the letter (if is his true signature...).

neutronbomb
02-20-2014, 06:15 PM
Where does the account of Swales using a sewing machine to change out the ribbon from stock to private stash come from. Did poets only come in 2 inch stock ribbon widths back then.

Gunslinger
02-20-2014, 06:44 PM
128

Grr wrote a massive post and lost it! Stupid iPhone! Starting again...

Mac
02-20-2014, 07:05 PM
I'm sorry for all the Mr. Swales fans, but I trust Deb Nadoolman.
She was the Costume Designer for the movie. The hat was her choice, even the custom alterations made to the fedora.
At best, Mr. Swales only made the custom changes she asked.

Herbert Johnson (Swaine Adeney), after the success of the franchise, decided to take advantage of it.
Mr. Swales, as an employee, agreed to sign the letter (if is his true signature...).

All of this presumes a strict reading of each account. Swales does not say that Nadoolman was not there, he merely mentions the exciting fact, to him and to fans, that Ford and Spielberg were there in his shop. Why would he mention some unknown costume designer, even if he could remember her name?

Likewise, Nadoolman does not specifically say, nor imply, that she went to Herbert Johnson alone. She merely stressed her involvement, which was the point of each of those interviews. It seems reasonable, at least, that Ford went to HJ for a personal fitting, especially if the hatter was nearby and given that hat sizes can vary from one maker to another, and would not the director want to see and approve the signature hat? We know from Steve’s KOTCS account that Spielberg personally approved the hat on that film from multple test fittings with Ford.

Nothing from any of those accounts excludes the other. These are not detailed depostions, they are merely recollections of pertinent facts by each of the participants to certain specific audiences.

TheExit148
02-20-2014, 07:08 PM
What is the Fedora that is second from the right?

The hats (from the left): Adventurebilt Beaver, Adventurebilt Deluxe Raiders, Adventurebilt Deluxe Last Crusade, Akubra Federation Deluxe and Jimmy Pierce Designs custom.

Gunslinger
02-20-2014, 07:30 PM
Leaving aside the film, I'm curious Kurt about the baseline felt color that you are using for comparison. Could you tell us more about it? Is there more than one sample? If there is more than one, are they identical in shade? Do you know the date of manufacture? How can you be sure it is from the same felt supplier as the film? How do you account for fade due to age?

Date of manufacturer label of the hat is in my post above. Its the closest hat I've had to the start of production of Raiders in 1980. Its highly likely hats of this batch were literally in stock at the shop at the time. The liner has the Old Burlington address. It was NOS (new old stock) when I got it, and have worn it maybe 5 times since. As you can see from my earlier shots with the ribbons, ZERO distinction on the felt where the ribbon had been. No fade at all. Happy to show you the underside as a match too.

Yes, I have had more than one sample. I've owned vintage HJ's from the late 1940s through to 1984. The one NB has shown in his comparison above is from the 1950s(IIRC?) and I have also had one from 1984 that I sold to Raskilinov (his ToD hat), among others. After pouncing, both were a very precise colour match to this hat. I remember overlapping the brims etc. and comparing them. I was actually surprised at how little the felt colour changed in all that time. The colour only started getting messed with in later generations - late 1980s / early 1990s? Never bothered with buying those hats to find out.

Another important point to mention is that modern hats refract / absorb / bounce light differently to these earlier vintage HJ's. Its actually very strange. (We've discussed this before with the grey clipper hat but never really with the brown hat.) But the upshot is that i think the fibres are much more "blonde" on the vintage hats. A modern rabbit felt hat that you think is actually, if anything, too dark to match the raiders - too brown / mahogany, can actually be too LIGHT by comparison to this hat when photographed under all sorts of lights, polarised and not. So even the best match (and I did this with my Steele & Jones, which to my eye is the closest I've seen to match the 1978 Herbert Johnson) doesn't quite match when properly photographed. It's just a difference in the way felt bodies are manufactured now, and there seems to be no way to overcome it.

But anyway, to me, that makes it hard to take the AB shots provided by TheExit as an accurate measure. (Thanks for doing the experiment, TheExit! Great minds think alike! ;) ) I think it shows a good match, but for starters, the photographer used a flash, which just makes the colour of the ribbons go nuts. Imagine the surface of a ribbon - all those ripples. They bounce light like crazy. Especially with a synthetic fabric like rayon or nylon or even the blends. That was part of my point above with the polarising filter. Depending on the amount of light bounce, you will get wildly different tones.

Secondly, the hats are a completely different felt, from a different era. That felt bounces / absorbs light differently too. The colour tone is also slightly different, as is the surface texture. (I say all that having just put down an ABD from my hand having compared it in the sunlight to this same 1978 Sable HJ.) The HJ has those super-fine honey blond "prickles" that make all the difference.

So although yes, you can get a match to the film based on a roughly-matching colour difference between each hat and its ribbon, the basic calibration of that comparison is off for the purposes of assessing what colour the original ribbon was because the only other point of reference - the hat body - is also different.

Our only way of being able to do a proper test is to have at least one element as historically dead-on as possible - and that's an original hat body in as-new condition.

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 10:34 PM
This is selective speculation.

RCSignals
02-21-2014, 08:49 AM
Was Ford in England at the time the hat was selected? I may be recalling things incorrectly but was there not an accounting of timeline that showed he was a later arrival?

Mac
02-21-2014, 11:33 AM
I went to Berman's and Nathan's [in London] which is now Angel’s Costumiers, where I emptied every fedora they had, every grey and brown and black fedora, on to the floor of the fitting room. So Harrison Ford was knee-deep in fedoras, and then we went through them one a time time trying each on.

"Now everyone knows how impossible it is to find a hat that looks good on them. Some people say ‘I’m not a hat person’. You are a hat person, because in the old days you would have had to wear one, you just don't have the availability of the right hat and you don’t have your personal costume designer to help you find it. So, we went through hundreds of fedoras, and I found the right crown height, the right brim width, which were not together on the same hat, and then I had that correct crown height and brim width made bespoke on fedora in London.

According to Nadoolman, Ford was in London doing test fittings at Bermans before a hat had been chosen.

Indiego Jones
02-21-2014, 01:13 PM
All of this presumes a strict reading of each account. Swales does not say that Nadoolman was not there, he merely mentions the exciting fact, to him and to fans, that Ford and Spielberg were there in his shop. Why would he mention some unknown costume designer, even if he could remember her name?

Likewise, Nadoolman does not specifically say, nor imply, that she went to Herbert Johnson alone. She merely stressed her involvement, which was the point of each of those interviews. It seems reasonable, at least, that Ford went to HJ for a personal fitting, especially if the hatter was nearby and given that hat sizes can vary from one maker to another, and would not the director want to see and approve the signature hat? We know from Steve’s KOTCS account that Spielberg personally approved the hat on that film from multple test fittings with Ford.

Nothing from any of those accounts excludes the other. These are not detailed depostions, they are merely recollections of pertinent facts by each of the participants to certain specific audiences.
Right, very possible.
Thanks for a different point of view.

Kind regards.-

neutronbomb
02-21-2014, 04:27 PM
Is this what you think actually happened Mac. While I can appreciate the effort to reconcile the two accounts and playing devil's advocate can help explore the possibilities, I'm finding it hard to buy.

Deborah's account is that she went through a bunch of hats with Harrison trying them on. Very hands on. Trying to find exactly what she wanted. Searching for the perfect hat for Indy. And she discusses the process and how she found it and how she got it. Swales account is that Spielberg and Harrison stroll into the shop with basically wide-eyed wonder with no idea. Just looking for a hat. And Swales took them by the hand like any good professional salesman and sorted it all out for them, guided them right directly to the Poet, did his thing, switched out a ribbon, and HF and Spielberg seemed pleased. Just a couple of shoppers walking into a hatter and being helped to find what they're looking for.


All of this presumes a strict reading of each account. Swales does not say that Nadoolman was not there, he merely mentions the exciting fact, to him and to fans, that Ford and Spielberg were there in his shop. Why would he mention some unknown costume designer, even if he could remember her name?

Likewise, Nadoolman does not specifically say, nor imply, that she went to Herbert Johnson alone. She merely stressed her involvement, which was the point of each of those interviews. It seems reasonable, at least, that Ford went to HJ for a personal fitting, especially if the hatter was nearby and given that hat sizes can vary from one maker to another, and would not the director want to see and approve the signature hat? We know from Steve’s KOTCS account that Spielberg personally approved the hat on that film from multple test fittings with Ford.

Nothing from any of those accounts excludes the other. These are not detailed depostions, they are merely recollections of pertinent facts by each of the participants to certain specific audiences.

neutronbomb
02-21-2014, 05:00 PM
To be fair TheExit148, The Akubra looks like an even closer match based on that particular photo. or about the same anyway.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/akubracompare01_zps6f1be914.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/akubracompare02_zps22468069.jpg~original

RCSignals
02-21-2014, 07:11 PM
Yes. But what comes to mind is something about Harrison leaving and returning. Maybe what I am remembering was part of the spin. The story would seem more plausible that Harrison was there the whole time

Mac
02-21-2014, 11:22 PM
Is this what you think actually happened Mac.

No idea. I don’t see anything in either story that directly contradicts the other, just different emphases and audiences and recollections. One could read into either account whatever one chose to, but that is really all just speculation.

It is entirely plausible to me that Ford and Spielberg both visited HJ to choose and fit the hat and not left it entirely to Nadoolman’s discretion, especially after she screwed up the jackets initially and perhaps Spielberg was wary that she was leaving the production early to finish planning her wedding, which, of course, she did. Who knows – it’s all speculation but entirely plausible given both narratives.

In fact it seems more creditable than to insinuate that HJ, and Swales in particular, would send out hundreds, if not thousands, of signed letters falsely attesting to the fact that Ford and Spielberg came into the shop for a fitting. A signed letter on company letterhead falsely attesting to celebrity involvement could easily be grounds for prosecution for false advertising at least, and more likely fraud. I actually put more weight on its veracity than on Nadoolman’s casual interviews, which are really meant to stress her involvement, rather than to provide some comprehensive account of who did what.

Certainly when dealing with anyone selling something, one has to filter out the hype and puffery. But Swales had no way of knowing what kind of discussion or design went on behind the scenes before customers arrived in his shop looking for a hat.

If customers enter, two of whom he knows because of their celebrity status, perhaps accompanied by an a female “assistant” holding a Aussie hat, and they then ask if he can supply a similar hat, but taller, with a certain size brim, and in some shade of brown that HJ might stock, perhaps when recounting the story Swales might suggest that he steered them toward the Poet with some modifcations – which seems reasonable, since that is what they purchased.

Again all speculation, and certainly no less reasonable than to speculate that Swales made it all up; perhaps more so.

neutronbomb
02-21-2014, 11:48 PM
Hmm..maybe.

Though there are companies that put out marketing letters and statements that are suspect.

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 12:06 AM
Either version could well be true, but do you know what happens in 90% of this sort of thing that I have dealt with? (and I'm talking A LOT)

X company wants to send out some sort of correspondence or advertising with a testimonial of some big flashy job from a high profile client. They then call the marketing guy or company and he says you need to get permission from that person wherever possible. So then one of these guys calls the client. At which point when he hears that company X just wants to recount how they sold high profile client something, high profile client just says "It was a great X (hat). You just write whatever you want."

Not saying 100% thats what happened here, but if I had to lay money on it...

RCSignals
02-22-2014, 12:48 AM
In fact it seems more creditable than to insinuate that HJ, and Swales in particular, would send out hundreds, if not thousands, of signed letters falsely attesting to the fact that Ford and Spielberg came into the shop for a fitting. A signed letter on company letterhead falsely attesting to celebrity involvement could easily be grounds for prosecution for false advertising at least, and more likely fraud. I actually put more weight on its veracity than on Nadoolman’s casual interviews, which are really meant to stress her involvement, rather than to provide some comprehensive account of who did what.


There is some irony in that I think

Mac
02-22-2014, 01:20 AM
http://www.empireonline.com/features/the-look-of-indiana-jones



Nadoolman:

"Here I had a character who I knew had to live in a fedora for the entirety of the film - what's a cinematographer going to do to light Harrison's eyes?... I went down to [London hatter] Herbert Johnson. They had a model called the Australian, which was silly because it snapped up on one side - that was completely the wrong thing. I thought, except for the chinstrap and the brim and the very wide hat and the brow this is absolutely the right style that I wanted. Harrison tried it on and with much shortening of the brim and much lowering of the crown, we created something entirely new. Once I gave my specs to Herbert Johnson, they were able to create an entirely new hat for me, which became the Indiana Jones hat. I worked on creasing the brow the right way and we took something that was entirely different, a Paul Hogan special, and made something completely different out of it. I think what disappointed me the most is that I never got the credit for making something new out of a Paul Hogan hat. It didn't exist, we made an entirely new hat."

It certainly sounds plausible that Ford was there in the shop for a fitting with Nadoolman. Swales said that he “shaped the brim into an ovoid” as they waited. He does not say it was at the behest of some non-celebrity crewmember. Honestly, if Ford and Spielberg and one or two non-celebs walked into your place of business for some assistance buying something, what are you going to tell everyone? “Guess who came into my shop today!” “I helped Ford and Spielberg create a unique hat for an action movie!” Right?


In the same article:




Nadoolman:

"The art of costume design is, by necessity, invisible. It just takes a tremendous amount of time to get it right. With the hat, it's not just bashing it in, it's sitting on it, rolling it up and also acting on it with grease, with dog hair, spraying it with mineral oil to make it look matted. There are all sorts of techniques to get it right - a little bit of ketchup helps. I really think you need to get it to a point where all of that reads on camera... With the jacket, [for the first day of shooting] it had not been aged properly. So the entire day before I was sitting at the pool with Harrison and Karen and Steven and [executive producer] Howard Kazanjian and George and I personally aged that jacket, the first Indiana Jones jacket ever, using Harrison Ford's Swiss army knife and a metal brush that I got from props."

In this account she says Allen, Spielberg, Kazanjian and Lucas were present when she aged the jacket at poolside, in contrast to the accounts that NB posted where she only mentions Melissa Matheson and Ford.

Is it possible that some of her anecdotes are more complete in their roll call of individuals present than others? Seems likely.

It’s plausible that when she went to HJ (she doesn’t mention how many trips were made) both Ford and Spielberg were present (at least one of those times) and she just doesn’t (generally) feel like she has to mention it, because she worked with them in close proximity every day.

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 01:34 AM
And this is why I'm saying it's like Rashamon - we will never know because too many people make shit up to sell themselves or their interests.

neutronbomb
02-22-2014, 03:08 AM
Thank you for posting that Mac. I freakin' couldn't find that interview anywhere. Remembered reading it.

neutronbomb
02-22-2014, 03:30 AM
going back and reading through that site 8)


[HF] I also spent time learning the whip, just lashing the shit out of myself for about two weeks until I learned the timing of it. The trick of it is to know when it is at its full extension before you bring it forward. I didn’t have any time to have any input in the costume. It’s a bizarre costume if you stop and consider it, a man wearing a leather jacket in generally hot locales. But I understood that if he’s carrying a whip, he might as well be wearing a leather jacket because it doesn’t make any fucking sense anyway.

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 04:58 AM
Got it! (I think!) As in I think this is THE ribbon! (Maybe...)

OK, no pics yet - workin' on it. :angel:

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 06:02 AM
All images taken with Nikon D700 professional SLR. Cloudy, diffused exterior light. Approx. 7000k colour temp. Neutral Density filtration only, with circular polariser used where indicated. Auto colour balance. Colour replication board and 50% grey board provided by one of the commercial labs we use.

I have uploaded all of these to Photobucket at FULL resolution. Click on the thumbs if you want to access the biggies.


The purpose of these shots is really to give you guys some ribbon details, NOT accurate colour references, as I have not properly white / RGB balanced these to the board from the in-camera .NEF raw file. They shouldn't be too far off though.


Adventurebilt ribbon.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-143640_zps41c9f903.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-143640_zps41c9f903.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-143640_zps41c9f903.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-143640_zps41c9f903.jpg.html)

Modern Very Dark Ribbon. (supplied by Hornet Hat's supplier when I was making hats. This is their standard stuff and is also used on modern HJ's as of about 2-3 years ago)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-151010_zps35c037cb.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151010_zps35c037cb.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-151010_zps35c037cb.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151010_zps35c037cb.jpg.html)

Vintage 1950/1960s blend ribbon from Etsy.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-151802_zps944eab61.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151802_zps944eab61.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-151802_zps944eab61.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151802_zps944eab61.jpg.html)

Vintage ribbons - 1950-1970s (not sure of maker)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152022_zps5f2a5046.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152022_zps5f2a5046.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152022_zps5f2a5046.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152022_zps5f2a5046.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-153612_zpsc6659047.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153612_zpsc6659047.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-153612_zpsc6659047.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153612_zpsc6659047.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-153714_zps5ae1566e.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153714_zps5ae1566e.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-153714_zps5ae1566e.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153714_zps5ae1566e.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-153838_01_zps27d725f1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153838_01_zps27d725f1.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-153838_01_zps27d725f1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153838_01_zps27d725f1.jpg.html)

Herbert Johnson 1950s
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152118_zps90c0b982.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152118_zps90c0b982.jpg.html)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152118_zps90c0b982.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152118_zps90c0b982.jpg.html)

Herbert Johnson 1978 sable body
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-151504_zps271c52ba.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151504_zps271c52ba.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-151504_zps271c52ba.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151504_zps271c52ba.jpg.html)
Other side:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-151538_zpsdf6d391c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151538_zpsdf6d391c.jpg.html)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-151538_zpsdf6d391c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-151538_zpsdf6d391c.jpg.html)

1980s *Mystery Ribbon* - yes, I do know exactly where / when / who it came from. :) Let's just call it HJ for these pics.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152234_zps1ad79a0a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152234_zps1ad79a0a.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152234_zps1ad79a0a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152234_zps1ad79a0a.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152300_zpsec2224c1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152300_zpsec2224c1.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152300_zpsec2224c1.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152300_zpsec2224c1.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152422_zpsa5f9dd6e.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152422_zpsa5f9dd6e.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152422_zpsa5f9dd6e.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152422_zpsa5f9dd6e.jpg.html)

And lastly, our mystery ribbon compared with the AB ribbon and 1978 Sable Herbert Johnson (Brim UNDERSIDE).
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152716_zpsb980ddb8.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152716_zpsb980ddb8.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152716_zpsb980ddb8.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152716_zpsb980ddb8.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-153212_zpsb10b8af7.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153212_zpsb10b8af7.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-153212_zpsb10b8af7.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153212_zpsb10b8af7.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-153346_zps72b6cde5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153346_zps72b6cde5.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-153346_zps72b6cde5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-153346_zps72b6cde5.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152734_zps66f2fd86.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152734_zps66f2fd86.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152734_zps66f2fd86.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152734_zps66f2fd86.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140222-152934_zps0e3be210.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152934_zps0e3be210.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140222-152934_zps0e3be210.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140222-152934_zps0e3be210.jpg.html)

That's enough for now. Basic in-person observation? Vintage ribbons - until about the 80s feel much finer than the modern ones. The modern ones TEND to have a slightly wider edging and a fuller feel. Synthetic in a different way to the earlier vintage ones. The mystery 1988 ribbon isn't quite like either. The AB ribbon doesn't feel ANYTHING LIKE any of these ribbons - from the late 1940s to modern. It's much more rigid feeling, with a kind of messier-feeling edging. (not a dig - it's just not fine like any of the others). Make of that what you will. I haven't examined these images at all re grain structure etc. so have at it.

I think you can probably tell which one I think is ~the~ Raiders ribbon. ;)

RCSignals
02-22-2014, 07:49 AM
How much of a celebrity was Ford at the time of Raiders? Would he and Spielberg really make an instant impression on Swayles as such celebrities at that time?

djd
02-22-2014, 09:28 AM
I think Star Wars had made Ford rather well known by that time!

RCSignals
02-22-2014, 09:42 PM
I am not sure he was as well known then as we think today

djd
02-22-2014, 10:51 PM
It was the most successful film at the box office ever at the time. It was also the most merchandised film of all time (even by 1979-80). I think it's safe to assume that Ford was a recognisable celebrity at the time of Raiders. Hell, I was 11 in 1977 and certainly would of recognised him!

Gunslinger
02-23-2014, 12:33 AM
Got some very nice full sun comparison shots between 3 key ribbons on the 1978 Herbert Johnson. Uploading soon once I get them colour balanced.

Gunslinger
02-23-2014, 02:51 AM
The following images were taken with the same setup. Same hat, switching between Adventurebilt ribbon (AB), a modern dark brown ribbon (MOD) and a 1980s vintage Herbert Johnson brown ribbon (80HJ). I have used 2 filters. The first is a Neutral Density filter (ND) (which is the minimal filtration any motion picture or stills professional would use), and the second is a Circular Polariser (POL) (which can be rotated on the camera to adjust the angle of polarisation).

Colour temp has been set to exactly 6k across all of these from the NEFs. No curves have been touched on any shots. The colour differences you see in the felt and ribbons between shots of the same felt body is due to the polarisation angle.

So, as these were taken on a very clear summer day in direct sunlight, these are a good pre-grading starting point for matching Tunisia. They are also a very helpful way of noting how different ribbons act with neutral or very simple, common filtration.

I have turned each ribbon inside out so you are seeing the as-new, non-faded side of each.

Adventurebilt (AB) Ribbon. Notice how with each of the three settings, the colour stays very consistently dark and lacking in any colour saturation difference between the shots even though you can see the felt is changing saturation / hue with the angle of polarisation. Very "dead" looking surface:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-102440_zps3db78c0f.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102440_zps3db78c0f.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-102440_zps3db78c0f.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102440_zps3db78c0f.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-101900_zpsff28c662.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-101900_zpsff28c662.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-101900_zpsff28c662.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-101900_zpsff28c662.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-101908_zpsd620113a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-101908_zpsd620113a.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-101908_zpsd620113a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-101908_zpsd620113a.jpg.html)

A modern (MOD) Ribbon, sourced from Hornet Hats. Notice how it colour shifts from mid to dark:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-102700_zps1fb1b38b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102700_zps1fb1b38b.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-102700_zps1fb1b38b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102700_zps1fb1b38b.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-102830_zpsc596e23a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102830_zpsc596e23a.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-102830_zpsc596e23a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102830_zpsc596e23a.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-102828_zpsefb76afa.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102828_zpsefb76afa.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-102828_zpsefb76afa.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102828_zpsefb76afa.jpg.html)

My candidate for considering as THE Raiders ribbon, in structure and composition if not colour. Again, note how it shifts in the light, from fairly lightish / washed out to mid brown to quite dark. What you would think is WAY too light to be the film ribbon when judged by your eye all of a sudden looks very different against the era-specific sable HJ body:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103326_zps669ae412.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103326_zps669ae412.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103326_zps669ae412.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103326_zps669ae412.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103322_zpsb6d886a5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103322_zpsb6d886a5.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103322_zpsb6d886a5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103322_zpsb6d886a5.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103328_zps4766bd5b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103328_zps4766bd5b.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103328_zps4766bd5b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103328_zps4766bd5b.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103340_01_zps3971504a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103340_01_zps3971504a.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103340_01_zps3971504a.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103340_01_zps3971504a.jpg.html)

So, I say again, I believe the idea of a dark Raiders ribbon is based on an illusion. Of people looking at the movie and replicating what they see, not the way it really was. It's really like Toht grabbing the headpiece and getting only half the information, and as a result digging in the wrong place. (Cheesy metaphor, but had to do it! :) )

My next step (probably in a week) will be to see what happens when we colour grade these images to match the crushed blacks of the Eastman film stock, and to take the same sort of shots in a green environment to replicate the Hawaii grabs.

And finally, as a very interesting side note, a closeup of what I think is THE ribbon. ND filter only. Now beyond the ribbon structure itself, I have noticed something VERY interesting when taking these shots. I can tell you this ribbon was not tacked by Swayles' hand, and is 99% likely to be a factory hat as far as I can tell. Notice how the ribbon was attached by the hole placement. Kinda Raiders-like, huh? So I think we can safely rule out that the Raiders hat has a monopoly on tacks up high on the ribbon because it was done shoddily for filming. So yet another fairy tale.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103602_zps2f03c4c6.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103602_zps2f03c4c6.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103602_zps2f03c4c6.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103602_zps2f03c4c6.jpg.html)

RCSignals
02-23-2014, 07:47 AM
It was the most successful film at the box office ever at the time. It was also the most merchandised film of all time (even by 1979-80). I think it's safe to assume that Ford was a recognisable celebrity at the time of Raiders. Hell, I was 11 in 1977 and certainly would of recognised him!


Thatcould be because you were 11 and very into Star Wars. I am not sure the same applied to most of the adult population of Swayles age at the time

Mac
02-23-2014, 11:18 PM
Very interesting Kurt; I know a lot of thought and prep went into that.



My candidate for considering as THE Raiders ribbon, in structure and composition if not colour.


Do I understand correctly that you are persuaded that the vintage HJ ribbon is a match for the Raiders ribbon in structure and composition, but NOT color? Because the ribbon color and type of dye used would seem to have more relevance to how dark/light the ribbon appears, even in varying light and assorted filters.

The rib count of the AB and vintage HJ appears to be identical from the images posted. The fineness of the rib structure can alter the reflectivity and appearance of the ribbon, but that does not appear to be a factor here. That would seem to leave fabric composition, color and dye characteristics to explain the difference in appearance. If the vintage HJ ribbon color (inextricably linked to dye chemistry and method) is not the same as in Raiders, that would limit its suitability in excluding the AB ribbon.

In addition, the Raiders ribbon appears darker in studio shots, where lighting is artificial and polarization filters are much less necessary (correct me if I’m wrong here), and the ribbon appears lighter in the outdoor shots, where polarization filters are commonly used. This would not seem to support the idea of a lighter ribbon appearing darker due to polarization filters.

I’ve already voiced my skepticism in the usefulness of this technique, Kurt, due to the artistic license in recoloring the Raiders master and our inability to judge how realistic the colors are, and after comparing screen caps from the older HD and the newer Blu-ray versions, I feel the older coloration was more realistic. Distressing and dust are some other unaccounted variables. However, I am intrigued by your experiments and would like to see more, even though I feel that with all the variables at play, we’ll never have a definitive answer.

We know that the AB/Penman ribbon can vary widely in how it photographs and appears on screen, and in KOTCS it looks and behaves quite similarly to Raiders. I tend to doubt that can be chalked up to an intentional color grading choice by the KOTCS crew or to coincidence, but appearance is also quite subjective.

Again, I am intrigued and would like to see more. I certainly don’t want to discourage you Kurt, as I feel it’s a useful endeavor, even if I am skeptical of the implications we can draw from it.

Can NB expect to soon receive a newly reblocked ABD? Win, win! ;) :)

Gunslinger
02-24-2014, 03:29 AM
Very interesting Kurt; I know a lot of thought and prep went into that. Do I understand correctly that you are persuaded that the vintage HJ ribbon is a match for the Raiders ribbon in structure and composition, but NOT color? Because the ribbon color and type of dye used would seem to have more relevance to how dark/light the ribbon appears, even in varying light and assorted filters.

No problem. As I said before, I'd actually like to know for my own sake which is ~IT~ so this is all fun, and actually not that much work.

Please note I have not yet compared my favourite ribbon to Desi's hat or the film hat yet. But my gut feel is that the structure is a match. This particular ribbon could well be slightly too light, but given the colour curves of that film stock at the dark end, I wouldn't be surprised if it were still a match. I'm working from exactly the smae images you're seeing here, but with experience of knowing how that could skew in postproduction (or on film stock in the first place). What I am saying is that the lightness / darkness OF the colour and dye actually has far LESS of a proportional effect than you may think. Again, think of the jacket. How often does the middish brown jacket appear BLACK?


The rib count of the AB and vintage HJ appears to be identical from the images posted. The fineness of the rib structure can alter the reflectivity and appearance of the ribbon, but that does not appear to be a factor here. That would seem to leave fabric composition, color and dye characteristics to explain the difference in appearance. If the vintage HJ ribbon color (inextricably linked to dye chemistry and method) is not the same as in Raiders, that would limit its suitability in excluding the AB ribbon.

I can't even begin to explain how different the AB ribbon is to literally every other ribbon I have examined. Seriously. It may LOOK the same, but it REALLY isn't. To anything else I have here. MUCH stiffer / thicker feeling. Plus the sheen is different. I can't even fathom how it could possibly exist at Herbert Johnson at the time or any time as it's just so alien to the ribbons I have taken off of other British hats of any time period, full stop.

On top of that, look at the earlier rows of ribbons I posted and how they colour-shift, and then the AB shots. No colour shift. So I'd love to know how if the actual Raiders ribbon WAS as dark as an AB ribbon, how we are seeing it pop so light in that Hawaii sequence. Filtration skews dark. The postproduction colour grading skews dark. So how the hell is a dark ribbon of the AB ribbon's structure/fabric composition/colour/dye able to skew ~light~? When as you can see, I can't get it to do that when the other, confirmed HJ and other British manufacturers ~can~?


In addition, the Raiders ribbon appears darker in studio shots, where lighting is artificial and polarization filters are much less necessary (correct me if I’m wrong here), and the ribbon appears lighter in the outdoor shots, where polarization filters are commonly used. This would not seem to support the idea of a lighter ribbon appearing darker due to polarization filters.

Yes, look, I'm mainly banging on about polarisers because they 100% explain a "real life" middish brown ribbon appearing so dark in a bright environment. However, studio interiors like those shots in the temple are a different animal. What you have at work there is a low end of the film stock's range coming into play. Very low light conditions, so Slocombe's shooting wide open. He mentions the speed issues he was up against in the American Cinematographer article. So again, depending on the level of sheen, some things skew to inky black. The hat body, however, DOES pick up the little bit of light more effectively. It has those fibres to catch the light. Skin tones - same deal.


I’ve already voiced my skepticism in the usefulness of this technique, Kurt, due to the artistic license in recoloring the Raiders master and our inability to judge how realistic the colors are, and after comparing screen caps from the older HD and the newer Blu-ray versions, I feel the older coloration was more realistic. Distressing and dust are some other unaccounted variables. However, I am intrigued by your experiments and would like to see more, even though I feel that with all the variables at play, we’ll never have a definitive answer.

We'll get there. Trust me. 8) :D


We know that the AB/Penman ribbon can vary widely in how it photographs and appears on screen, and in KOTCS it looks and behaves quite similarly to Raiders. I tend to doubt that can be chalked up to an intentional color grading choice by the KOTCS crew or to coincidence, but appearance is also quite subjective. Again, I am intrigued and would like to see more. I certainly don’t want to discourage you Kurt, as I feel it’s a useful endeavor, even if I am skeptical of the implications we can draw from it.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Put another way, you can arrive at 5 by adding 3+2 or 1+4. You know what I mean. This is why they do screen tests to check how certain real life colours work to create X result with a certain film stock, filtration and proposed grading setup. If I really have a lot of energy, I can bring the other films into this, as it actually all makes sense when viewed as a case study.


Can NB expect to soon receive a newly reblocked ABD? Win, win! ;) :)

It's looking that way. ;)

Gunslinger
02-24-2014, 07:04 AM
American Cinematographer pages: http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/library/AC%20Raiders

Mac
02-24-2014, 03:32 PM
It might be useful to do a side-by-side comparison of the Sable HJ felt with ABD felt, both in frame and sans ribbon, in different lighting conditions, with and without filter, etc. Underside too. Properly white balanced of course! ;D:D

Gunslinger
02-24-2014, 07:04 PM
Yeah thanks for that. :D

Indiego Jones
02-25-2014, 11:52 AM
REMARKABLE WORK, Kurt.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to do all this, and above all, for SHARING.

I know anything about photography, lenses, filters, etc.
And the info you shared and explained, helped me to understand the analysis.

I think something that would help on this, if anyone, any F&G member, can post a picture of a vintage HJ hat (1980's circa) with the very same AB ribbon.
Someone in the Indy fan community must have found the AB ribbon on a vintage HJ hat collected.
Share that here! Now is when!

Mac
02-25-2014, 08:08 PM
One other problem with this chain of reasoning: how do we know the Raiders HJ color was Sable?

If one disbelieves Swales account where he states, “As the character was to use it in different terrains a shade of brown called Sable was chosen,” then what other source do we have to confirm Sable?

As far as I know, Swales spoken and written accounts are the only confirmation that Sable was the color used in Raiders. If one discounts Swales, then the color is then in doubt.

Herbert Johnson produced many shades of brown. From left to right, Burma, Maize, Light Sable:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/L-R-BurmaMaizeLightSable_zpsf8f1dbee.jpg

Gunslinger
02-25-2014, 08:55 PM
Because Sable is the only one that behaves in the correct way given the light, etc etc conditions we see in the movie.

A note: Modern sable (of ANY maker) is pretty similar, but not a match. This is due to a few factors, including not just the dyes but the felt itself.

Mac
02-25-2014, 09:14 PM
Because Sable is the only one that behaves in the correct way given the light, etc etc conditions we see in the movie.

A note: Modern sable (of ANY maker) is pretty similar, but not a match.


Isn’t that the reasoning that proponents of the AB ribbon used?

Replace “Sable” with “ribbon” and it sounds familiar. :)


But my post was directed more toward those that have doubted Swales account. ;)

Gunslinger
02-25-2014, 10:00 PM
Isn’t that the reasoning that proponents of the AB ribbon used?

Replace “Sable” with “ribbon” and it sounds familiar. :)

But my post was directed more toward those that have doubted Swales account. ;)

:D That's ok Mac. I actually agree with your thinking. Believe me, I have thought about these issues every which-way for too many years. It was actually this topic that got me started on my whole quest for a better hat offering in the first place about 4-5 years ago.

Back then, people on the ~other~ board were posting shots of new hats that they'd bought, and nothing that people were posting looked quite right compared to what I was seeing on film. So knowing the factors that come into play - film stock, grading, etc. I started doing comparisons like this for myself to try to nail what the real colour was in order to make purchasing decisions:

Looks like this was colour adjusted:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/ChristiesColoursRaiders-Adjustedcopy_zpsd6aa902c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/ChristiesColoursRaiders-Adjustedcopy_zpsd6aa902c.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_ChristiesColoursRaiders-Adjustedcopy_zpsd6aa902c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/ChristiesColoursRaiders-Adjustedcopy_zpsd6aa902c.jpg.html)

Against this, which I guess were the originals (hard to remember):
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/ChristiesColourscopy_zps4e4b672c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/ChristiesColourscopy_zps4e4b672c.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_ChristiesColourscopy_zps4e4b672c.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/ChristiesColourscopy_zps4e4b672c.jpg.html)

And yes, I realise I have a sickness! And this is only one of MANY of these digital comparison things that I have. eek! :D

So, yes, as there are shortcomings with the way we as humans process colour and rationalise what's correct on film versus reality, what I started doing was stripping the grading out and re-colour correcting, and then comparing what I was finding to various hat manufacturers. "Sable" by Christys / HJ / Hornet Hats was by far the only reasonably accurate modern day one. The only ones that NAIL it are pre 1990 (maybe late 1980s) hats by HJ and certain others.

If you don't take these things into account, you end up with things like too dark a ribbon. ;)

Mac
02-25-2014, 10:17 PM
I love the these comparison compilations Kurt. As I said earlier, I would really like to see a direct comparison of vintage HJ Sable with ABD felt.

I would point out, however, that in those comparisons all of the Raiders screen caps are of the heavily distressed and dusty SOC/Flying Wing/Truck Chase hat(s), and all but one of the fan hats are pristine. The one distressed hat (in the first collage, Cork vs. Sable in the center) looks quite comparable to the film hat.

RCSignals
02-26-2014, 01:38 AM
To be fair a vintage HJ sable would need to be compared to an AB in rabbit felt would it not?

Gunslinger
02-26-2014, 06:49 AM
Re AB vs. HJ body comparison - Actually I thought you were joking re that. :) Yeah, it is comparing apples with oranges as the fur structure of the beaver is different - tighter. Probably best to do it when the AB is pounced later though.

Yeah, I know a lot of those are dusty but what I think I was trying to do is look for an average - or something. :) The thing is, the modern cork actually doesn't look too bad - and in certain ways closer to the vintage sable in certain light. These sort of things drive me nuts. But what I ended up finding out was that the modern sable hats are a duller kind of brown closer in tone to the way the FILM hat ~appears~ than the actual vintage Herbert Johnson! The best way to articulate it is that the vintage HJs tend to pop "yellower". And that was the trait I was picking up in the cork photos. But on balance, I came to the conclusion that of the modern rabbit bodies, the Sable was still closer in most light.

But in any event, if anything, this is why this Hawaii set of shots is very enlightening, and I thank Neutronbomb for posting his initial experiment. It made me realise it's more or less the only very close indication of the real colour of the actual gear, starting with the Herbert Johnson body and moving out from there - not just the hat body and ribbon. In turn, that should make us realise just how profoundly out of whack the tones in the rest of the film by comparison.

RusselJones
02-26-2014, 03:33 PM
Hello there! My Name is Dave and I'm new to this forum. I come from COW, because I think this is a place were you can speak freely. On COW it's sometimes difficult. I recently posted on COW regarding this ribbon, because I don't like how JP is dealing with this matter. He calls his ribbon the "only true" Indy ribbon, but does not want to or can not prove it. I've asked him several questions on COW, but most of them he did not answer. JP also posted in threads about other hatters work that he and AB are the only ones having access to the "only true" Indy ribbon, and I think that is not the way a vendor should behave.

I have compared the Penman/AB ribbon to a ribbon of a HJ Poet from 2013 (left AB/Penman ribbon, right Poets ribbon):

http://imageshack.com/a/img600/5410/fjlo.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img822/834/6ew7.jpg

I found it interesting that I could not see a difference in the structure or size, only a very small difference in the color hue. And I noticed the AB ribbon was a bit thicker. Here are just some thoughts:

Is it from the same manufacturer? I don't know. But if this is so, AB/Penman are not the only ones having access to it.

If it's not from the same manufacturer and if it is such a remarkable ribbon, why are AB/Penman the only hatters worldwide having access to this ribbon? What a ribbon manufacturer only has three customers? How can he survive this way?

I have done intesive researches in the last weeks in England trying to find this manufacturer. I have spoken to many hatters, ribbon manufacturers and Herbert Johnson. None of them had an idea. Must be a very, very small ribbon manufacturer.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, how does JP know it was also on every single hat in Temple or Crusade? I think it's very unlikely that every hat seen in the films had the same ribbon. And if that's true, AB / Penman are not the only ones offering true indy ribbon.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, why does no other hat from Herbert Johnson from this time period have such a ribbon?

I like the hats that JP makes, I just don't think his ribbon is the "only true" Indy ribbon. Just in case this question comes up: I am not Gunslinger and I don't know him. But I think Kurt is not that bad at all ;)

Gunslinger
02-27-2014, 04:50 AM
Last night I sent off this message to our colour grading company.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/grading-sub1_zps02feffe4.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/grading-sub1_zps02feffe4.jpg.html)


Please note what I asked for. Nothing about matching the ribbon - simply to match tones / film stock curves based on the felt. Now let's take a look:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg.html)

So again, noting that same ribbon ordinarily can look like this, depending on the angle of light:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103326_zpscd95c3d8.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103326_zpscd95c3d8.jpg.html)

TheExit148
02-27-2014, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't use the DVD screen shots to do a colour match. The blu-ray is more accurate IMO.

TheExit148
02-27-2014, 04:28 PM
Also, this screenshot, from 1080p blu-ray source.

http://i.imgur.com/ASgaaBe.png

Mac
02-27-2014, 05:49 PM
Kurt, here’s a Christys which, arguably, looks even closer:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Christys-D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zpsecb4ca7d.jpg

The difference, it would seem, is distressing – a healthy dose of Fuller’s Earth, which skews the intensity of reflected light on ribbon and felt. The white/off white powder tones down the dark brown ribbon so that it appears lighter, while the felt presents as more matt and muted.

There are so many variables to tease out in testing Gunslinger’s hypothesis and distressing is one that cannot be easily dismissed. I do not believe, however, that Kurt is prepared just yet to ruin his vintage HJ with Fuller’s Earth to properly test it.

As to why photos of the ABD with the vintage Sable HJ are desirable, as opposed to say a rabbit AB, well an AB beaver Raiders and an AB rabbit Raiders hat are the same color, dyed with the same dye. The physical properties, density, hand, floppiness, etc. are irrelevant to how they appear in photos – save one – quality of the pounce. All other things equal, the beaver will pounce finer than the rabbit, which will have a courser, fuzzier texture, and which will very minutely affect how it photographs. But close enough for our purposes. And the ABD doesn’t come in rabbit anyway. And does anyone have a vintage HJ Sable circa late ‘78 and a rabbit AB? We know Gunslinger currently has an ABD and a Vintage HJ Sable…so...

But really, the reason I would like to see the ABD beside the Sable, is that we keep hearing that Diego’s felt is really close to the Vintage Sable. So, while Kurt has the ABD, why not sandwich the Vintage HJ Sable between an ABD and Diego’s rabbit and show everyone the color difference?

Gunslinger
02-27-2014, 08:08 PM
I wouldn't use the DVD screen shots to do a colour match. The blu-ray is more accurate IMO.

Yes mate I agree.

I just grabbed something to confirm if a) my image guys were good enough to match film grading ahead of doing more shots, and b) it's possible that a fairly light brown ribbon can appear a quite charcoal blackish. I will come back to this and do another - happy to use suggested grabs.

It shows that the ribbon didn't have to be so dark in real life as say an AB ribbon to match what we see in these sorts of shots where it looks basically like black with a dusting of fullers earth.

Gunslinger
02-27-2014, 08:14 PM
Also, this screenshot, from 1080p blu-ray source.
http://i.imgur.com/ASgaaBe.png

The problem is the hat is wet. But yes, maybe let's focus on the Bluray.

Mac
02-27-2014, 09:56 PM
That scene was actually filmed while flying over Kauai and, whatever the condition of the hat at takeoff, I doubt it was substantially wet by the time they reached altitude, despite the previous scene in which Jones climbs out of the river.

From interview with pilot Fred Sorenson, who played “Jock” in the film:


Fred Sorenson

A camera was originally mounted on the left wing, which proved to be a problem on the first take, resulting in damage to the airplane. Over the next 4 days we worked to repair the airplane.
During the filming I did actually do the flying of the airplane and the scenes were actually filmed with a camera on the plane, in the air over the south side of Kauai.

http://jerrysaravia.blogspot.com/2011/05/interview-with-fred-sorenson-raiders.html

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 12:52 AM
Kurt, here’s a Christys which, arguably, looks even closer:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Christys-D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zpsecb4ca7d.jpg

The difference, it would seem, is distressing – a healthy dose of Fuller’s Earth, which skews the intensity of reflected light on ribbon and felt. The white/off white powder tones down the dark brown ribbon so that it appears lighter, while the felt presents as more matt and muted.

There are so many variables to tease out in testing Gunslinger’s hypothesis and distressing is one that cannot be easily dismissed. I do not believe, however, that Kurt is prepared just yet to ruin his vintage HJ with Fuller’s Earth to properly test it.

Actually I disagree with you there, Mac. I think Fuller's Earth has the least influence on the colour / hue in many shots, including this one. By far the biggest factors are the felt itself combined with film/grading. The thing is, the Christy's is the closest to the eye of many hats (I made all of my hats with that body), but this is only so only to the washed-out looking version we see on screen, not reality. The blacks level of that fan hat comp-in above also has its blacks tweaked ~higher~ so it looks more washed out.

So my friend, I would argue I don't ~need~ to mess up my nice "Don Draper"-style HJ, thank you very much. :)


As to why photos of the ABD with the vintage Sable HJ are desirable, as opposed to say a rabbit AB, well an AB beaver Raiders and an AB rabbit Raiders hat are the same color, dyed with the same dye. The physical properties, density, hand, floppiness, etc. are irrelevant to how they appear in photos – save one – quality of the pounce. All other things equal, the beaver will pounce finer than the rabbit, which will have a courser, fuzzier texture, and which will very minutely affect how it photographs. But close enough for our purposes. And the ABD doesn’t come in rabbit anyway. And does anyone have a vintage HJ Sable circa late ‘78 and a rabbit AB? We know Gunslinger currently has an ABD and a Vintage HJ Sable…so...

I'd actually disagree again. As I've mentioned above, the nap of the felt actually has a big effect in the way it catches the light.


But really, the reason I would like to see the ABD beside the Sable, is that we keep hearing that Diego’s felt is really close to the Vintage Sable. So, while Kurt has the ABD, why not sandwich the Vintage HJ Sable between an ABD and Diego’s rabbit and show everyone the color difference?

Yes, this is something I can do later. I actually have never seen one of Diego's new style Raiders bodys or ribbons in person - the one I have is his original style. However, I have bought a new one of each and will have them in a little while. Looking forward to comparing his ribbon.

Here's the thing though - let's not be too distracted by felt and this body versus that body and trying to match them to the movie. It's actually irrelevant (and really counter-productive) to discussing the ribbon. We know the 1978 Sable HJ is what needs to be used to calibrate the ribbon. Any other body comparison talk is really another thread IMO.

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 12:55 AM
That scene was actually filmed while flying over Kauai and, whatever the condition of the hat at takeoff, I doubt it was substantially wet by the time they reached altitude,...

We can't know that. I've flown an aircraft very similar to the UBF and it would literally just take 5 mins for preflight, and you could be at altitude in 2 mins flat. A felt body normally takes a solid day to dry...

RCSignals
02-28-2014, 02:19 AM
As to why photos of the ABD with the vintage Sable HJ are desirable, as opposed to say a rabbit AB, well an AB beaver Raiders and an AB rabbit Raiders hat are the same color, dyed with the same dye. The physical properties, density, hand, floppiness, etc. are irrelevant to how they appear in photos – save one – quality of the pounce. All other things equal, the beaver will pounce finer than the rabbit, which will have a courser, fuzzier texture, and which will very minutely affect how it photographs. But close enough for our purposes. And the ABD doesn’t come in rabbit anyway. And does anyone have a vintage HJ Sable circa late ‘78 and a rabbit AB? We know Gunslinger currently has an ABD and a Vintage HJ Sable…so...

But really, the reason I would like to see the ABD beside the Sable, is that we keep hearing that Diego’s felt is really close to the Vintage Sable. So, while Kurt has the ABD, why not sandwich the Vintage HJ Sable between an ABD and Diego’s rabbit and show everyone the color difference?

If AB doesn't have a rabbit felt how is it dyed the same as the Beaver?

Also dye lots even though named the same do have slight variations and in light felt from different lots may very well present slightly different shades when compared in the same light. Being dyed with the same dye only really applies if in fact they are dyed at the same time in the same lot.
This is another factor in these comparisons.

Mac
02-28-2014, 04:29 AM
If AB doesn't have a rabbit felt how is it dyed the same as the Beaver?

I didn’t say AB doesn’t have a rabbit, it does – I said ABD does not offer a rabbit felt. Gunslinger currently has an ABD, which comes only in beaver (therefore it’s impossible to compare ABD rabbit to HJ rabbit.)


The difference in color between AB beaver and rabbit is nearly imperceptible and the perception of the fuzzier nature of rabbit diminishes with distance from the subject while the color regresses to the mean – in this photo one hat is beaver and the other is rabbit:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ABComparisonBampR_zpsb361b4b4.jpg

Also note how light the ribbon appears in bright light. I would wager that if the ribbon was dusted with Fuller’s Earth it would appear, as with all dusted and distressed ABs, Penmans, Fedoraraiders and Christys possessing the same ribbon, strikingly similar to the SOC/Flying Wing/Truck Chase hat – particularly the ribbon.



So my friend, I would argue I don't ~need~ to mess up my nice "Don Draper"-style HJ, thank you very much. :)

I agree! Please don’t! (But it’s the only way to be sure.) :D



Here's the thing though - let's not be too distracted by felt and this body versus that body and trying to match them to the movie. It's actually irrelevant (and really counter-productive) to discussing the ribbon. We know the 1978 Sable HJ is what needs to be used to calibrate the ribbon. Any other body comparison talk is really another thread IMO.


Agreed, although these things are interconnected, as the Sable HJ is the constant in a sea of variables (assuming it isn’t faded!) and it would seem to be the foundation for calibration of the ribbon comparisons. But yes, another thread for that. ;)



We can't know that. I've flown an aircraft very similar to the UBF and it would literally just take 5 mins for preflight, and you could be at altitude in 2 mins flat. A felt body normally takes a solid day to dry...

I agree we can’t know, but it is a reasonable assumption. Did they only do one take? How long were they aloft? Wouldn’t Ford have become hypothermic in a 110 mph slip stream in wet clothing? How fast would the hat dry at that wind speed? Did they soak the hat, mist it or what?

To me the hat looks dry, or substantially so, and it looks to be the same color as the idol grab/temple hat. I agree, we can’t know if, or how much, it’s wet, but it does look suspiciously familiar. As with everthing involved in this topic, there seems to be plenty of doubt to go around on all sides. :D

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 04:37 AM
I agree we can’t know, but it is a reasonable assumption. Did they only do one take? How long were they aloft? Wouldn’t Ford have become hypothermic in a 110 mph slip stream in wet clothing? How fast would the hat dry at that wind speed? Did they soak the hat, mist it or what?
To me the hat looks dry, or substantially so, and it looks to be the same color as the idol grab/temple hat. I agree, we can’t know if, or how much, it’s wet, but it does look suspiciously familiar. As with everthing involved in this topic, there seems to be plenty of doubt to go around on all sides. :D

Did Ford enjoy it? Was there a snake down his pants the whole time? If so, did Ford enjoy it? We could play this game for hours. :D

To me, the hat looks WET. And this is the beauty of film, isn't it? (My money is on them drenching the hat pretty much to the core (note the significant taper) - maybe its dried out a liitle from dripping wet, but I think it's still at least semi-sodden.)

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 05:08 AM
Same test with the AB Ribbon. Identical grading:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-102056-comp_zps33c3aaf2.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102056-comp_zps33c3aaf2.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140223-102056-comp_zps33c3aaf2.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-102056-comp_zps33c3aaf2.jpg.html)

IMO, the AB is too black, because it's starting from a too dark a brown. Whereas the lighter brown ribbon nails it far closer. (Of course, notwithstanding variables like possible fullers earth. However, fullers earth wouldn't have made the ribbon ~browner~.)

This is really only the first half of where I'm going with this. I'm really only trying to establish what each ribbon is ~capable~ of. The screen ribbon behaved one way in Tunisia, and one way in those Hawaii shots.

The (telling) real test will come when we replicate Hawaii.

Mac
02-28-2014, 06:14 AM
I know this will come as a shock Kurt, but…I disagree! ;D

Seriously, I’m not trying to be contrarian, but to my eyes the AB ribbon is a closer match:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJ-ABRibbonRaiders-1_zps5b36d209.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HJ-ABRibbonCloseRaiders-2_zps837e854a.jpg

RCSignals
02-28-2014, 06:15 AM
Dye Colour from different dye lots is going to have slight differences. Maybe more noticeable as the felt ages and fades

How well rabbit hair accepts or doesn't accept dye compared to Beaver I do not know

Yes with fullers earth the ribbon and felt will present differently and may well look closer to those scenes

RCSignals
02-28-2014, 06:20 AM
If we can trust the bottom photos as being accurate in colour nothing is an exact match

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 06:55 AM
Seriously, I’m not trying to be contrarian,

Oh, of course you are! :D

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 06:59 AM
If we can trust the bottom photos as being accurate in colour nothing is an exact match

Again, I wasn't trying for a phenomenal match here - just making the point that a ribbon you may think is WAY too light can be pretty much dead-on when emulating Raiders grading.

I ~am~ correct on this and will have you convinced soon.

ban-llama

Mac
02-28-2014, 07:12 AM
Again, I wasn't trying for a phenomenal match here - just making the point that a ribbon you may think is WAY too light can be pretty much dead-on when emulating Raiders grading.

I ~am~ correct on this and will have you convinced soon.

I was convinced it was possible even before you proposed it; I’m just not convinced it is so. ;D

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 07:22 AM
Oh you will be, baby! ;)

I wish I had an incredibly smug looking emoticon right now. Will have to leave you in suspense though.

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 04:16 PM
remember, bleach/water mixture was use as part of the distressing. I'll state it again. using photo pro or con, isn't proof or fact.

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 09:46 PM
Distressing of what? The body? The ribbon? Both? Who said this and where was this stated?

It's more of a fact than someone's word ~on top of~ someone else who made a decision that the ribbon is very dark brown based on what they ~thought~ was a good match based on watching a film while quite possibly not taking into account film stock & colour grading. Isn't it?

Mac
02-28-2014, 11:28 PM
Distressing of what? The body? The ribbon? Both? Who said this and where was this stated?

What! Did you entirely miss the great hat bleaching craze? :D

The bleaching claim, IIRC, originated from DarthJones, an intern at ILM circa 1990 who is credited with the infamous Lucasfilm Archive walkthrough video exposé in which several Indy hats were featured, complete with shots of the hat’s interiors. As I recall Tone was the foremost proponent of hat/ribbon bleaching, but several gearheads posted the results of their bleaching experiments.

Here is one mention of it (you know from where) by DarthJones, though not the earliest - someone relayed the info from him much, much earlier, thus kicking off the craze:


DarthJones

Post subject: Re: Was the Raiders fedora intentionally made poorly?
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Hm - I thought perhaps that this was implicit in what I had written. In 1986 Swales did INDEED say that he cut the brims and pinched the hat in the shop for Raiders. He said that H. Ford showed up for the fitting too.

But he told me then that he shaped them all there. He also said that some very diluted bleach was sprayed on them (didn't say by who) but that the studio did most of the aging.

And he said that all of the hats were made from the stock Poet they had at the time. He demonstrated how the brim was taken down from 3 1/8" etc.

Some of the reasons I believe him are that no one really knew about HJ then. Matter of fact, I myself am the one that told Lee Keppler originally where the hats were made back in 1984! Ask him! :) Swales had no one bugging the @#$% out of him and he seemed to have a lot of fun that day speaking with us and answering my goofy questions. He even gave my dad a hat for free that day. No kidding.

There is some stuff he talked about that I am hazy on but I do remember this much at least.

And the hat out of which I got the address via the then LFL archivist, David Craig, was a super pinched top to bottom, bleached out hat on the greener side (funny huh, pinched/ shaped like Raiders, not reddish though but greenish ???) and not tapered. Ribbon was bleached a little bit too.


Here are some examples of bleached hats, the first two are Tone’s and the last is DarthJones, in each case where a pair is shown, the one on the left is bleached and the one on the right is not:


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/BleachedFederationregularleftNewFedRegright-Tones_zps88f12c2d.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/akubra0ftoneBleached_zps78c018c2.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/darthjonesHJs-leftonebleached_zpscd416cfb.jpg

Of course we can't really know for certain whether The Hat was bleached as part of its distressing, but it was distressed by some method(s), and bleaching seems plausible enough and the source appears credible. It’s another (possible) variable in the hats appearance that we will likely never be able to conclusively confirm or refute.

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 11:35 PM
Thank you Mac. The couple of costume designers I worked for use the water/bleach to distress hats. They wouldn't share the mixture but it's a very good possibility. That's why I say photos can only tell you so much.

Gunslinger
03-01-2014, 09:20 AM
Ok, I can say the toughest challenge in this hobby to date has been to deal with a 5 year old boy on a hot day, getting him to stand in the right patch of sunlight, not dropping the clapperboard too low, while the trees move and the sun with them, and the clouds move across the sky, thus making the light drop and fade. WTF am I doing!?

Anyway, the foliage I found here is yellower than what you see in the below Hawaii shot, and the light was changing, but you get the idea. Again, as before, 1978 Sable HJ with Neutral Density (ND) versus Circular Polariser (POL). In this case, as my wife is watching a HIMYM marathon, I took the time to have a go at grading them to match myself. If anyone wants the original NEF raw files, just let me know.

Hawaii shot, run through Photoshop's "Auto Colour" filter to help neutralise the Bluray grading, which to me is the more accurate vs. the DVD in these shots:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_ Auto-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg.html)

~~Just noticed after I have uploaded all of these images and linked them all in here from Photobucket that they have come out too bright when I have converted them to jpgs, but you get the idea I think.~~

80s Brown Ribbon:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-102008-Gcopy_zps7c4ca711.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102008-Gcopy_zps7c4ca711.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-102008-Gcopy_zps7c4ca711.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102008-Gcopy_zps7c4ca711.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-102506-Gcopy_zpsb073df9b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102506-Gcopy_zpsb073df9b.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-102506-Gcopy_zpsb073df9b.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102506-Gcopy_zpsb073df9b.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-102514-Gcopy_zps0828d3e5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102514-Gcopy_zps0828d3e5.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-102514-Gcopy_zps0828d3e5.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102514-Gcopy_zps0828d3e5.jpg.html)

AB Ribbon:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg.html)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg.html) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg.html)

Now to me, again, as much as I didn't QUITE nail the exact hue of the brown ribbon under the circumstances, it's very much in the ballpark, whereas the hue of the AB simply comes out too black / monotone (not just dark) when you mimic the Raiders colour curves for it to be correct.

RCSignals
03-01-2014, 09:41 PM
If hats were 'bleached' or continue to be by costume designers, i wonder if their secret ingredient is hydrogen peroxide rather than chlorine

TheExit148
03-04-2014, 03:53 AM
Here are a couple more shots. These are from the 720p TV broadcast of Raiders pre blu-ray. The ribbon still does look very brown in these shots.

http://i.imgur.com/4irWPoa.png

http://i.imgur.com/Rims0Bo.png

This is a comparison of the tv broadcast vs the blu-ray. You can see the colour difference, but the ribbon colour looks very similar, especially on the bow.
http://i.imgur.com/J2uo2Ut.jpg

Gunslinger
03-04-2014, 07:45 PM
Yes, very brown. To me, this post seals the deal for proving that the ribbon isn't as dark a brown as we are led to believe by some people.

This thread re another member jagging a LC hat is a great example of how many myths get perpetuated because of dodgy arguments and an almost wilful misunderstanding of the filming process. Louisiana James was onto something in his first post right here:


Here is my Last Crusade with a light brown ribbon from Nicky Manning new owner of Herbert Johnson. ...

More photos of the fedora in different shades of light
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/578/2i2i.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img163/9200/2i4o.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/1488/1i4e.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img405/9919/1i3y.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img441/1599/1i1u.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img827/9617/1i2i.jpg

Probably If i dusted it with Fullers Earth it would look like the tank scene, and the ribbon would look more darker.

As you can observe the ribbon on the film fedora looks like its lighter brown
http://www.indygear.com/images/gear/fedora/LC_left.jpg
http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/files/2012/08/indiana-jones-last-crusade-behind-the-scenes.jpg
http://media2.firstshowing.net/firstshowing/img4/LastCrusadeYellingShot560fullrev2.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maemq2ypQ81qjonawo1_r2_500.jpg
http://www.indygear.com/images/gear/fedora/LC_right.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U-HbA2atU7c/Tepr3g63wqI/AAAAAAAAA40/3ADV9C4yxW8/s400/fedora.jpg

Different hat with different color darker brown or purplish brown ribbon used for this picture?:o
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljpt8d6tCV1qi9q4ko1_500.jpg


Do you see? It WASN'T a different ribbon, it's the SAME ribbon. And the SAME POLARISING / FILTRATION EFFECT that I'm showing / explaining with Raiders. Why would the screen used LC hat and the onscreen (and publicity shot) have a different ribbon installed? Makes zero sense. And notice how as with Raiders, the ribbon changes both brightness/darkness & hue in a way that only a lighter brown ribbon can.

In a way that a darker brown ribbon CAN'T.

My shots replicating the Hawaii scenes show it can't - even when the brightness AND SATURATION has been lifted higher than the film, and higher than the quite desaturated grabs shown by TheExit above. (Look how washed out the 720p broadcast hat body is compared to my shots above, yet even there the ribbon is still browner than my tests with the very dark brown ABD ribbon, which looks black.)

neutronbomb
03-05-2014, 02:04 AM
So we're saying that most likely these are all the same ribbon in LC?
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/LC_filmribboncompare01_zps58cdce95.jpg~original

Also, I took a ton of photos in all different lighting and angles of my AB Deluxe that Marc put THE ribbon on before I sent it to Gunslinger. In looking through them over the last week I couldn't find any that duplicated the color of the ribbon of Bending Oaks two photos until I went into the photo editor and played with the temperature, saturation, and highlights. The first photo is of one of the unedited photos of my AB Deluxe.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/BO_compare_zps3fccbb03.jpg~original

RCSignals
03-05-2014, 08:10 AM
To me the first photo of the AB ribbon looks similar to the two right side photos of the top section showing LC hat

Are we saying the hat ribbon used for raiders was also the identical hat ribbon used for the LC hat?

Gunslinger
03-05-2014, 08:52 AM
And that is why it is wrong; because it is an accurate copy of an illusion. It's copying a polarised reality.

Here we see how you can polarise a mid brown ribbon darker, but not a dark ribbon lighter. (I'd like to see someone try to do that and present a raw camera file that looked in any way like either reality or the movies.)

Re Raiders ribbon = LC Ribbon, Maybe. It's possible.

Ram Man
03-05-2014, 10:44 PM
Kurt, what you are saying makes total sense to me and I have to agree. I haven't commented on this thread because technically I have nothing to contribute and therefore don't qualify for this debate but if I were to offer my two cents, I have always felt that the ribbon was lighter than it appeared for the same reasons. According to your logic it can't be any darker than medium brown at best but the illusion on screen makes it appear darker. The same is true of the jacket. I think most would agree by now that it wasn't as dark as it appeared on screen having seen publicity photo's and so on with a chocolatey brown color. If the jacket presented darker on screen then the hat would have to also.

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 03:42 AM
Thanks Ram Man. I appreciate you chipping in. Sometimes it feels like you could be walking into a room and saying the sky is blue and you'd get some sort of argument. (Admittedly its mostly from a guy selling umbrellas. ;) )

And hey, here's the thing. Don't be afraid to contribute. A lot of this stuff is just observation & logic.

indydude18
03-06-2014, 06:45 AM
Thanks Ram Man. I appreciate you chipping in. Sometimes it feels like you could be walking into a room and saying the sky is blue and you'd get some sort of argument. (Admittedly its mostly from a guy selling umbrellas. ;) )

And hey, here's the thing. Don't be afraid to contribute. A lot of this stuff is just observation & logic.

Gunslinger,

Would a polarization filter on a camera show this change in ribbon color? I might do an experiment using a hat I own.

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 07:20 AM
Yes. Please do. The effects will vary depending on the polariser. A "circular polariser" is the best because you can put it on the lens and rotate it. As you rotate, it will shift the intensity of the effect. The angle of the light source makes a difference too, so there's lots of fun to have. :)

indydude18
03-06-2014, 07:37 AM
Yes. Please do. The effects will vary depending on the polariser. A "circular polariser" is the best because you can put it on the lens and rotate it. As you rotate, it will shift the intensity of the effect. The angle of the light source makes a difference too, so there's lots of fun to have. :)

Awesome! Thanks for the info Gunslinger. I'll see if I can pick one up tomorrow and give it a go!

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 08:02 AM
Cool. If you are at a camera shop getting it, consider grabbing a colour board of some type. (They show the little blocks of greys and red green blue etc.) You can get cheap ones for basically nothing, or commercial photo labs will just give you one.

indydude18
03-06-2014, 05:58 PM
We should also take into account the fact that the ribbon and felt is almost certainly faded from exposure to the hot Tunisian sun. Also, wasn't the Raiders hat supposedly distressed with bleach?

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 06:50 PM
I don't give too much weight to the bleaching theory, as the tones of the stock 1978 HJ I have tested already matches the film hat perfectly. If a noticeable amount of bleach was used, it would have been more noticeable in that Hawaii grab versus the sable HJ, but it's dead-on. Further, the tones of the HJ contrasted with the 1980s mid brown ribbon also fit the film curves perfectly. If bleach ~was~ used, it must have been a very minor dose.

I really don't think a ribbon would fade in any major way in that shooting period of only X weeks.

bendingoak
03-06-2014, 07:58 PM
So we're saying that most likely these are all the same ribbon in LC?
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/LC_filmribboncompare01_zps58cdce95.jpg~original

Also, I took a ton of photos in all different lighting and angles of my AB Deluxe that Marc put THE ribbon on before I sent it to Gunslinger. In looking through them over the last week I couldn't find any that duplicated the color of the ribbon of Bending Oaks two photos until I went into the photo editor and played with the temperature, saturation, and highlights. The first photo is of one of the unedited photos of my AB Deluxe.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/BO_compare_zps3fccbb03.jpg~original


The 3rd. shot you have that I posted ( very close up shot) was shot by a professional working on a film. It is unaltered.

How can you possible used shots that are clearly distressed??? for a comparison??????

- - - Updated - - -


I don't give too much weight to the bleaching theory, as the tones of the stock 1978 HJ I have tested already matches the film hat perfectly. If a noticeable amount of bleach was used, it would have been more noticeable in that Hawaii grab versus the sable HJ, but it's dead-on. Further, the tones of the HJ contrasted with the 1980s mid brown ribbon also fit the film curves perfectly. If bleach ~was~ used, it must have been a very minor dose.

I really don't think a ribbon would fade in any major way in that shooting period of only X weeks.


of course you don't anything that would contradict you theory you just brush aside.

One of the go to distressing sources for costume designers is water/bleach mixture.

bendingoak
03-06-2014, 08:10 PM
left out my first part of my response.

First, do we know for a fact that the first hat your showing is a screen used hat?
2nd. I never said anything about LC hat.
3rd. you have a so called screen used hat (20-30 years old). a screen grab and a photo from a photo shoot. Do you think there are all under the same conditions? and do you notice the distressing.
4th. did I say anything about the LC hat?

bendingoak
03-06-2014, 08:39 PM
Kurt, Can I ask you what your job title is? and what you do for a living?

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 08:59 PM
of course you don't anything that would contradict you theory you just brush aside.

Not at all. I consider it, and give it it's due weighting given all of the other things we can see and know. The variance that the grabs and stills vs. actual hat is very small, so that any possible amount of bleaching doesn't really contribute in any big way. What DOES have a huge effect (5-to-1 at a guess) is the polarization / filtration / film stock / grading, which has been allowed for in my analysis.

Wow John, that third shot you refer to REALLY looks like the AB ribbon on the ABD that you're claiming that I'm faking. Again, the edging looks like nothing else I've seen. I note that it also REALLY doesn't look like the Hawaii shots.

Did anyone SAY that you mentioned the LC hat? Your rhetorical questions ignore the REALLY obvious point I'm making. It's not just those images. It's the whole thing. A warm, middish brown ribbon is shown to become quite dark and vaguely bluish given certain conditions. This has been shown to be the case in both Raiders-related grabs, stills, shots of prop hats. Same now with LC evididence, with amazingly similar parallels.

From everything that I have seen, the ribbon you use does not.

So I say again, if anyone can show a Penman / AB / ABD do that and provide the unedited .raw files, let's see 'em.

RCSignals
03-06-2014, 11:12 PM
Once again. When it is said water and bleach is used, what bleach is it? Chlorine? Peroxide?
Chlorine would seem harsh, maybe even as a weak solution

Gunslinger
03-06-2014, 11:20 PM
Kurt, Can I ask you what your job title is? and what you do for a living?

Sure, by day I guess my title would be "billionaire philanthropist". At night I fight crime. Come to think of it, that latter part may have had something to do with an incident in my childhood with my parents... But I fail to see what any of that has to do with why a ribbon behaves a certain way through a lens.

neutronbomb
03-06-2014, 11:39 PM
John, I was simply pointing out what I had to do in manipulating the photo to get it the ribbon color to match the color of yours. By doing that you can see how orange it turned everything else like the felt and edges of the ribbon. But the saturation level was what got the ribbon color to match yours.

Did not say yours were manipulated only what I had to do to mine. I was hoping a photography expert might be able to speak to this as maybe different cameras do different things to saturation levels or something. Trying to figure out why in tons of different angles and lighting I couldn't get a photo that color.

Btw, the professional photographer looks to have a lot to be desired. It's not a very clear photo.

Ram Man
03-07-2014, 02:35 AM
With all due respect to Kurt and John, both are actually proving each others point. The reason that photos or screen caps cannot verify what the real color was is that they are not an accurate representation of the actual hat (or jacket for that matter). At the same time Kurt is using photos to prove that very point indicating that the 'screen accurate' hats that we have been buying may be screen accurate according to the illusion of the image, but not to the real thing. Both gentlemen are right and I think everyone would agree that the hats available to us today are just what we have been looking for as far as 'screen accuracy' goes. I do feel though that fans are a particular bunch and when it comes to detail evidence is required...... Just my thoughts

Gunslinger
03-07-2014, 04:14 AM
I see it like this.

http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/105-Socratic-Method-and-Gear

Nothing ever improves in life by blindly accepting the status quo. If you see something that desn't add up, should you not question it?

It's not so much about how much evidence is required, but how much evidence may be required to show something that is held out as "FACT", when it may well not be. When it seems to be based on illusions that we can identify and account for, showing us fairly accurately what I ahve come to believe the real deal actually WAS. In this case all of that analness / neuroses actually isn't nitpicking - its a fairly big difference. Otherwise, the equivalent is us all walking around in black jackets instead of brown ones. But the aesthetic of the ACTUAL hats (with a mid-brown, kind of reflective ribbon) is totally different to a very dull, dark brown ribbon. It's important.

Surely this importance goes fivefold where there's a claim that a very particular ribbon WAS used, and only one group of vendors have that USP (Unique Selling Proposition), to the detriment of all others who have a different view who may well be correct. Does that claim actually stack up? Is it ok for us to accept as fact / "gear history" something that has a LOT of cause for commercial bias to be involved? Without doing so, you end up with ridiculous situations like on COW where calfskin jackets were pushed, history of the real gear be damned.

For that reason, all I for one am trying to lay out is what we actually KNOW, and to show how we can use certain tools to get past limitations of simply saying "you can't trust screen grabs!" so that buyers or anyone interested in the gear can access as much information as possible to make their own minds up.

The irony in all of this, of course, is that from what we've heard, the only reason why it's accepted that the ribbon is dark brown is that people made a call using what's seen on screen as a reference.

Tibor
03-07-2014, 02:06 PM
Just to throw in a layman's observation, I always saw the ribbon as a close match to the jacket and the felt a close match to the pants. Now I know the reality was different, but that's the impression given on the screen. To capture the look, I think it's often necessary to use darker pants as hat makers use dark brown felt. With all the bleach or sun or Fuller's earth, or lighting and filters, it seems awfully hard to reach color absolutes, but a little easier to see relative shades compared to other gear. The jacket was a bit of a chameleon seeming very dark in most scenes, but definitely much browner in reality. I guess the same goes for the hat.

indydude18
03-07-2014, 10:18 PM
Okay guys, Experiment 1.1 Results!

Now, the hat that is being shown is a Herbert Johnson "Grosvenor" from (I'm guessing) 1982-1985. It's in Sable color and the ribbon is actually just a shade or two darker than the actual felt itself. This hat's ribbon color (IMO) is identical or very VERY close to the photo that NB posted of the possible screen-used LC hat.

Now, the reason I decided to do this experiment is so I can get a better understanding of how a circular polarizer can affect the color/shade/tone of a felt hat and it's ribbon. I got some very interesting results.

I bought an "El Cheapo" Bower circular polarizer and neutral density filter yesterday at Frys so the quality will probably not be the same of more expensice filters. The camera I'm using is a Canon Rebel T3i on the "Flash Off" setting.

These first photos were taken indoors under "cool" fluorescent lightbulbs. I'll post some outdoors shots later tonight.

No Filter
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9602_zps8576a984.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9602_zps8576a984.jpg.html)


Neutral Density Filter
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9603_zps53c5ba0f.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9603_zps53c5ba0f.jpg.html)


Circular Polarizer ON but effect OFF
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9604_zps58dfdcb4.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9604_zps58dfdcb4.jpg.html)


Circular Polarizer 100%
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9605_zpsbb3d5a9c.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9605_zpsbb3d5a9c.jpg.html)

neutronbomb
03-08-2014, 12:14 AM
Interesting. I don't see that much difference in the felt color, but the polarizer did darken the ribbon. Will be great to see your outdoor experiment.

Also, It looked like the filter by itself darkened the ribbon a bit, but then with the polarizer on with effect in off the ribbon looks lighter than with the filter by itself. Was the filter on with the polarizer?

indydude18
03-08-2014, 12:53 AM
Interesting. I don't see that much difference in the felt color, but the polarizer did darken the ribbon. Will be great to see your outdoor experiment.

Also, It looked like the filter by itself darkened the ribbon a bit, but then with the polarizer on with effect in off the ribbon looks lighter than with the filter by itself. Was the filter on with the polarizer?

NB, I notice a very small change in the felt color, not important I know, but it seemed to me that the polarizer made the felt look grayer and lose some red, as though it flushed out some color with it. That being said, the hat looks a lot more brown in person, so I personally don't think these photos are the most accurate to show the ribbon color. I think the outdoor photos will work better.

Now, in the third photo, yes the polarizer was on but set to the lowest setting, which looked to me to be very close to the photo with no filter on. The last photo has the polarizer to "max" being the setting where I thought the ribbon looked the darkest.

I'm trying to upload the outdoor photos now.

P.S. I really think the polarizer is just meant for outside shots.

indydude18
03-08-2014, 01:26 AM
Just for comparison: These following photos show the same hat pictured above just in different lighting. Ribbon totally looks darker.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/IMG_5469_zps9846850c.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/IMG_5469_zps9846850c.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/DSC07268.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/DSC07268.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/DSC07262.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/1984%20Poet%20-%20Sable/DSC07262.jpg.html)

indydude18
03-08-2014, 01:32 AM
Okay here we go. Experiment 1.2: Outdoor shots. Part Sunny, Part Shade.

No Filter
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9608_zps64afc1ca.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9608_zps64afc1ca.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9609_zps442a5e7e.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9609_zps442a5e7e.jpg.html)

Neutral Density Filter
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9610_zpsce2615ec.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9610_zpsce2615ec.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9611_zpsefa8e038.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9611_zpsefa8e038.jpg.html)

Circular Polarizer 100%
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9619_zps9f669eed.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9619_zps9f669eed.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9618_zpsdff44e53.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9618_zpsdff44e53.jpg.html)

Okay, so I see a very slight change in ribbon color. Again, this could be because I'm using a cheap polarizer or because the ribbon was already pretty light to begin with.

NB: Looking back at previous posts. The bow work on your AB looks dead-on to me. Great bow on that hat.

indydude18
03-08-2014, 01:46 AM
Ok, does anyone have some time to do a comparison shot between the following ribbon, the screen-used ribbon and the AB ribbon? I would but have totally no idea how.

Background: The hat shown is a Herbert Johnson Poet from 1980-1982 (Guessing). It was blocked on the Raider's blocks and has a 43mm ribbon, so it's basically a Clipper hat, just in the wrong color. Assuming this hat would have been made during Raiders, wouldn't they have used similar, if not, the same ribbon for their Poets? Just a thought.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9622_zps4e0d0c8f.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9622_zps4e0d0c8f.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IMG_9620_zps79be7661.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IMG_9620_zps79be7661.jpg.html)

neutronbomb
03-08-2014, 02:10 AM
No way. That's pretty awesome. I like the dramatic change the filter makes, how the felt greys out somewhat (reminds me of the truck chase scenes) with just the filter, and then how the polarized moved it back to richer brown, and then how dark the ribbon got in the indoor shots.

I'll do a compare for you in the morning if no one else does it sooner.

Marc Kitter does great work.

Gunslinger
03-08-2014, 03:13 AM
.... [But to] Indydude, good work - you will find the polariser works best in direct, strong sunlight - no clouds, and at certain angles more than others. If you include some white paper in the shot it will help colour balancing if we need it later on.

I look forward to some ribbon comparisons - sorry I can't do them, I'm too busy for the next while. I'd love to see an AB vs. Indydude's vs. my 80s ribbon vs. the modern ribbon I showed, though.

neutronbomb
03-09-2014, 10:01 PM
Working on the compares. Here's one that caught my eye. Notice the two behind the scenes photos of Terry Leonard. How the jacket, felt, and ribbon color are different between the two. In one all three looked much more "greyed" out and darker than the other. The other one has the ribbon and jacket color a more brown with maybe red tones. To me the felt and ribbon look very similar colors to Desi's.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/TL_ribboncolorcompare01_zps7fd4b30d.jpg~original

indydude18
03-09-2014, 10:50 PM
Bryan,

Yesterday I was thinking the exact same thing too. Wouldn't the "Behind The Scenes" shots possibly be the most accurate in determining the ribbon color? I'm not exactly sure what kind of equipment was used to shot the "Behind the Scenes" VS the equipment used to film the actual movie. But I bet it's safe to assume that the "Behind the Scenes" shots probably have less filters so that the color shown is more accurate.

P.S. Bryan, can't wait to see the compares and see what you found. Awesome! Thanks Bryan! Indy_cheers

Gunslinger
03-09-2014, 11:05 PM
What stands out to me is how the colour of the ribbon matches the jacket perfectly. Black-black in the left shot, brown-brown in the right.

Most likely shot on 16mm Arri; if not something very similar. But yes normally very little time put into proper grading in BTS stuff, so it's not so much more "real", but more indicative of the stock's characteristics.

Mac
03-10-2014, 01:51 AM
If we are bringing other movies into the discussion now, can we go back and explain how these ribbons look so much alike, since one is the (too dark?) AB ribbon and the other is some other lighter ribbon (presumably?)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg

More examples with some random fan hats using the same AB ribbon thrown in:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/AB-KOTCS-Raiders-12_zps7613e7d5.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Raiders-KOTCS-AB-DistressedFullSun-1-SMALL_zps1c0db70d.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/KOTCS-Raiders-AB-12_zps484121f9.jpg

If one supports the idea that the Raiders ribbon is lighter than the AB ribbon, and only appears dark in the film due to the use of polarization filters, then one must explain why the ribbon looks dark outdoors BUT even darker indoors where polarization filters are not generally used.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Raiders-KOTCS-ABDarkRibbon-1-SMALL_zps6747f39d.jpg


Promotional shots from Raiders, some taken outdoors in overcast light and others taken indoors, where it’s unlikely a polarization filter would be needed and also that would not be color timed exactly as the film, where the ribbon presents as very dark (the Bantu Wind ribbon looks particularly AB ribbonish.)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersPromoShotsCollage_zpsf7204a1c.jpg

If you believe that the Blu-ray is a more accurate color grading, consider that this behind the scenes shot is a more likely representation of what the hat and jacket looked like in direct sunlight in the Hawaiian jungle.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersHawaiiBehindtheScenesColor_zps6151f6d2.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/hawaii-hat-birds-2_zps67280279.jpg

Unfortunately, the ribbon is not visible, but clearly the jacket is more realistically colored than the purple-tinged jacket of the Blu-ray color grading – which would tend to support the idea that the color grading is not necessarily realistic and, indeed, some shots may be more or less accurate (and wildly so) than others.

indydude18
03-10-2014, 03:06 AM
These are two shots that get me every time:

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IJC-0146_zpsf139607e.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IJC-0146_zpsf139607e.jpg.html)

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/IJC-0147_zpsf2f163f4.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/indydude18/media/IJC-0147_zpsf2f163f4.jpg.html)

Even though the hat is in direct sunlight, the ribbon looks dark as hell.

Mac
03-10-2014, 03:30 AM
Those shots always remind me of Fedoraraiders’ distressed SOC reblocked HJs:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersSOCampFedoraraiders_zps2fe6a879.jpg

indydude18
03-10-2014, 04:29 AM
Agreed Mac, Fedoraiders' hats just look awesome. I have yet to see one of his hats that I haven't liked. Too bad he's not making them anymore. I would have loved to have picked one up.

neutronbomb
03-10-2014, 08:28 PM
What ribbon is he using on those reblocks. Are they AB raiders ribbons?

As for your compares. Personally it is easier for me to see that the AB fan hats ribbons match the CS hats ribbons. Maybe because I know that they are and that biases me. In many of the CS shots, AB fan hat shots, and my own AB Deluxe hat shots I see an almost gun metal, steely, grayish presentation. I find the CS ribbon distressing especially annoying to try to see through for these comparisons. Nice work on these compares Mac. I know, for me anyway, the amount of time it takes to put these together.

Have you seen any CS or AB fan hat photos that look to match close to the color of Desi's fedora ribbon or the brownish color of the Terry Leonard behind the scenes photo I posted?

The Terry Leonard photos show the ribbon, felt, jacket looking one color. And then those items in the other photo shows everything darker including a darker blackish ribbon and jacket that more closely matches the dark photos of the Raiders film ribbons you posted and in which some of them also show a darker blackish jacket. I wonder what it is that is making those two behind the scenes photos of Terry Leonard so different in color? And which representation is most accurate?

Would you be willing to PM me a link to all the individual photos you used for those compares. I would like to try something.

Gunslinger
03-10-2014, 09:22 PM
Every single one of these comparisons is comparing film stock of a certain era with that of another that has been digitally processed (IE Crystal Skull), or images from digital cameras.

This doesn't mean we can't compare, it just means we have to take into account what's going on in the images we are looking at. So, as much as I also can see how similar the colour of the ribbon is, we ~must~ take into account what's going on in the imaging itself. It comes back to what I said somewhere way above - that 1+4=5, but 3+2 can also equal 5. A medium brown ribbon filmed with a stock that skews darkish tones (IE dark browns) into blacks (plus other grading) will result in a very blackish brown-looking ribbon. As will an actual blackish-brown ribbon when photographed and processed more neutrally. So we are talking about contrast curves.

This is ADDITIONAL to discussion about filters, be they polarising or something else.

So when we compare these images...


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg


...one has to actually look at the way it has rendered light and shadow. Notice in many areas how much lighter the shadow areas are in the CS shot, vs. Raiders, where the shadows are a few steps darker and murkier. Colour itself is also rendered differently. So, when you replicate those Raiders conditions, the colours of the small inset below become those of the big shot.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140223-103340_012_R_zps489a5a39.jpg.html)

This is really important - it shows just HOW MUCH the curves you see in Raiders are due to a ~process~ and that that process creates a completely different image to either reality or a "regular" high quality modern digital image.

As such, when discussing Raiders, by ~definition~ the images you are showing of modern hats are "incorrect" - because they are showing a black-brown ribbon "correctly", not a brown ribbon with appropriate curves and polarisation/filters applied. But they basically "cheat" the ribbon match by actually using a darker ribbon rather than achieving the same level of darkness via the stock/filtration/grading.

Now, onto the indoors / darker stuff...


If one supports the idea that the Raiders ribbon is lighter than the AB ribbon, and only appears dark in the film due to the use of polarization filters, then one must explain why the ribbon looks dark outdoors BUT even darker indoors where polarization filters are not generally used.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Raiders-KOTCS-ABDarkRibbon-1-SMALL_zps6747f39d.jpg

(I've taken that collage indicative of your broader argument / images, Mac. But the upshot is any BTS / production stills are shot in relatively low light, or if in bright light, polarisers would have likely been used.)

As I've already mentioned in a post somewhere way above, this is highly likely due to the light levels and the way film behaves in low light. But there are a few things going on:

1. Film stock's drop off with blacks - the stuff I noted above.
2. Shooting in low light, low aperture means you often have to "push" the stock, etc. (It's hard to unpack this stuff in a short-burst way). Many pages of photographic & cinematography theory books have been written on side effects you are working against (or with) in this type of scenario.
3. Ribbon reflects light differently to felt or skin, especially in low light, ESPECIALLY on ~film~. Double-especially with filters.
4. Filtration. And again, I can't overstate this. On working with the director to decide a look for a given production, a DoP shoots as consistently as possible. Sometimes this means changing certain things to ensure consistency - e.g. daylight vs. tungsten balance; but for the most part, you run with a "look". This is achieved in part with filters. If you look at any guide to using Kodak Eastman motion picture stock (I threw mine away years ago, sorry), it has a section on each stock with recommended filters to properly balance the stock. That's step A. Step B is then deciding how you are going to deviate from that look, and using which filters. As a general principle, you use those filters in ALL scenes, indoor or outdoor, dark or bright, because you need it for consistency. Without doing so, the difference could be as huge as my colour graded shot and its insert. You can't shoot to edit/grade like that. But my point is, polarisation is ON TOP of that. Not instead-of.

Now, the bottom line re matching Raiders to CS is that when they came to shoot CS, there would have been a meeting of the minds between Spielberg, the DoP and the costume department where they do screen tests. They needed to match the costume, but wanted to create a different look. A look with more brightness in the blacks, among other things. Also, they were using a COMPLETELY different set of tools. Even the Kodak Eastman they shot on was different, and postproduction process crazy-different.

As a result, 2 different ribbons can end up looking identical - again, 1+4=5 and 2+3=5.

(BTW, to in part answer someone's question above in a non wise-arse way, I've worked -as in, PAID work- as a photographer, camera operator / DoP on both film and video, editor, director and producer. Most of that is on TVC's so isn't as glamorous as features, but I assure you the tech all works the same. I've stood in the dispatch office of Panavision talking to their guys about numerous things numerous times, as well as Atlab (motion picture film processing), and clocked in more hours in grading/edit suites in numerous post production houses than I would like to mention.)

Mac
03-11-2014, 05:09 AM
What ribbon is he using on those reblocks. Are they AB raiders ribbons?

IIRC, Fedoraraiders reused the stock HJ ribbon when he reblocked, and, at the time those photos were taken, HJs were shipping with the same ribbon AB uses. This is confirmed by side by side comparisons of HJs and ABs, and also by quotes from Steve Delk, who was also reblocking stock HJs for Magnoli at this time. Fedoraraiders is a member here I believe, so maybe he can elaborate.



Would you be willing to PM me a link to all the individual photos you used for those compares. I would like to try something.

I would be happy to, but it may be a few days before I can round them all up again and upload them individually. It may be faster if you just crop them from the collages. If there a few in particular you need, that may be easier; just PM me.



Have you seen any CS or AB fan hat photos that look to match close to the color of Desi's fedora ribbon or the brownish color of the Terry Leonard behind the scenes photo I posted?

No, but I haven’t seen any HJs that exactly match Desi’s ribbon or felt either. I suspect intentional distressing, age, and sun exposure are some of the reasons why, along with poor color balancing of the original snapshots.

I remember seeing some Leonard shots but I couldn’t find them in a cursory search of this thread. Could you link to them or repost here NB? The fact that photos can vary greatly in color from one shot to the next really should alert us to the fact that photos are not necessarily reliable regarding color.

I searched the forum for Leonard photos and these popped up.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Color/3bd08429-2e88-4713-ba8c-194efe28f9a2_zps78e965c0.jpg~original

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/Leonard_hanging4.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20The%20Prototype%20Jacket/Leonard_hanging2.jpg~original

And this one of Martin Grace's ribbon:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/The%20Prototype%20Jacket%20-%20Right%20Side%20Collar/bantu_hovitos_pit_leonard.jpg~original



As such, when discussing Raiders, by ~definition~ the images you are showing of modern hats are "incorrect" - because they are showing a black-brown ribbon "correctly", not a brown ribbon with appropriate curves and polarisation/filters applied. But they basically "cheat" the ribbon match by actually using a darker ribbon rather than achieving the same level of darkness via the stock/filtration/grading.

I understand perfectly your point Kurt, but you must admit that there is no way that all the behind the scenes photography was processed with the same curves as the film, no way that they were all taken with the same film stock, or that, even if those all those behind the scenes lenses were filtered, it’s highly unlikely that they would be turned to max polarization in overcast conditions (Bantu Wind) or in the studio promo shots.

When fan shots taken under various lighting conditions and levels of distressing, and shots from another film, match fairly well those Raiders behind-the-scenes shots and also scenes from the film itself (even when they present in many different shades of brown), that is difficult to dismiss.

You are asserting that we can’t believe what we see in Raiders or Raiders behind the scenes shots, but we can believe what we see in KOTCS. Are polarization filters passé in modern film? :mexiguy:

Evidence that something is possible is not confirmation that something is so. I do agree it’s possible, but I don’t see any overwhelming evidence that it is so and I do see a great deal of evidence that it may not be so. Sort of a solution to a nonexistent problem, so to speak.

Gunslinger
03-11-2014, 06:09 AM
It's not just the filtration. It's a combo of stocks, grading, filters. I ~am~ actually saying that film stocks, especially of that era, skew dark at that end of the curve. Especially compared to digital imaging. On top of that, most people don't realise that the editing process can go through various prints, internegatives, interpositives and so on before arriving at a screener print. Don't forget these were times when people were still editing on Steenbecks! Crazy, agricultural stuff by today's standards. Point is, it murks up the dark end of the spectrum. I see it as plain as day.

What ~doesn't~ happen is the blacks don't skew lighter without washing out. It can't - not pre-digital, or easily at all since Avids etc. So if the dark ribbon advocates were right, we wouldn't be seeing that very mid dish brown ribbon in Hawaii.

I'm not saying that all filtration was done with a Circular Polariser. There are different sorts of filters that have polarising properties. The CP is just handiest to explain what I'm on about.

Of course all the fan digital photos match the fil grabs and stills - they have copied the illusion I'm explaining! :) Thats what I was saying earlier on about my opinion being that the very dark brown AB ribbon being an accurate copy of an illusion.

So in the same way, no I'm also not saying CS wasn't polarised. Just that like the fan shots, it didn't impact the already-dark ribbon much at all.

So again, I said weeks ago it's very easy to make a dark ribbon match. But what of the lighter Hawaii shots? How do you explain them? I overexposed the AB ribbon on those forest shots with my son far more than it was in Hawaii but got nothing like the effect, with or without polarisation. So please explain how that's the case if the ribbon is as dark as the AB?

Tibor
03-11-2014, 03:48 PM
What stands out to me is how the colour of the ribbon matches the jacket perfectly. Black-black in the left shot, brown-brown in the right.

Most likely shot on 16mm Arri; if not something very similar. But yes normally very little time put into proper grading in BTS stuff, so it's not so much more "real", but more indicative of the stock's characteristics.

Yes, that's what I was getting at too. The ribbon always seems to match the jacket. When the ribbon is dark, the jacket almost looks black, when the ribbon is brown, so's the jacket. In the past I thought dark was the right shade, but now feel the really dark look of both the jacket and the ribbon is more attributable to lighting and camera mischief.

Now all that said, if you want to look like Indy on screen when you walk around in gear, dark makes sense. If you want to be true to the originals, I think you're looking at Kelso striated lamb brown and a brown-ish ribbon.

Mac
03-11-2014, 04:51 PM
So again, I said weeks ago it's very easy to make a dark ribbon match. But what of the lighter Hawaii shots? How do you explain them? I overexposed the AB ribbon on those forest shots with my son far more than it was in Hawaii but got nothing like the effect, with or without polarisation. So please explain how that's the case if the ribbon is as dark as the AB?


The AB ribbon is something of a chameleon. It demonstrably runs the gamut from appearing mid brown to very dark.

If you assert that the Hawaii hat somehow escaped filter darkening and that the color timing (foiling?) technicians were napping during that scene, (or perhaps the famous photo is a promotional shot captured by an SLR,) and that that shot is a more faithful rendering of the ribbon, AND also that KOTCS, being captured on more modern film stock, is practically true to life, THEN this KOTCS ribbon matches very well the Hawaii ribbon. The KOTCS AB in the bottom right corner is a behind the scenes shot – go figure.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/KOTCS-Raiders-13_zps9b967482.jpg

Gunslinger
03-12-2014, 08:24 PM
So again, I said weeks ago it's very easy to make a dark ribbon match. But what of the lighter Hawaii shots? How do you explain them? I overexposed the AB ribbon on those forest shots with my son far more than it was in Hawaii but got nothing like the effect, with or without polarisation. So please explain how that's the case if the ribbon is as dark as the AB?

Sorry Mac, I should have been clearer on ~which~ Hawaii shot I meant. This one:

Auto Coloured:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg.html)

Bluray:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/hawaii-hat-birds1_zps24e5f0fc.jpg.html)

Not too far off a match (80s Ribbon):
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-102512-Gcopy_zps8a1781da.jpg.html)

Yet when we look at the very dark brown ribbon below, it's a so-far-off-you-can't-miss it mismatch to Hawaii further below it.

Too dark / black to match, even with ~NO~ polariser, bursting with nice bright, yellowy sunlight compared to the 80s ribbon above (AB Ribbon):
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103010-Gcopy_zps6f3cc228.jpg.html)

It's still too dark with the polariser, which you will notice does basically nothing to change this (AB) ribbon compared to unpolarised:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/D700-20140301-103126_01-Gcopy_zps57e2c132.jpg.html)

There simply isn't enough brown in a ribbon that dark to replicate what we see here:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/GunslingerAU/media/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_t00mkv_snapshot_000134_Aut o-Colour_zps5cc3dc47.jpg.html)

So at the end of the day, our working hypothesis re the Raiders ribbon colour should be this:

The Raiders ribbon must be capable of replicating the shots in the film where it presents lighter, not just the ones where it presents darker.

This is so because although is easy to make a mid brown or very dark brown ribbon match the more charcoal-looking presentation, only the correct ribbon will match these Hawaii shots. This very dark brown ribbon does NOT do that. The real ribbon has to be lighter.

neutronbomb
03-13-2014, 02:54 AM
RusselJones, would you please be able to take a few photos with no flash of the two ribbons you are comparing (see a copy of your post below) and post them here in this thread. The AB/Penman raiders ribbon and the 2013 HJ Poet. At a few different distances that are similar to the photos I show below with as much of the color that you can see with the naked eye showing as possible and the edges. Thanks in advance Dave.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare8_zpsbb89585a.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Ribbon%20Comparisons/ribboncompare8_zpsbb89585a.jpg.html)


Hello there! My Name is Dave and I'm new to this forum. I come from COW, because I think this is a place were you can speak freely. On COW it's sometimes difficult. I recently posted on COW regarding this ribbon, because I don't like how JP is dealing with this matter. He calls his ribbon the "only true" Indy ribbon, but does not want to or can not prove it. I've asked him several questions on COW, but most of them he did not answer. JP also posted in threads about other hatters work that he and AB are the only ones having access to the "only true" Indy ribbon, and I think that is not the way a vendor should behave.

I have compared the Penman/AB ribbon to a ribbon of a HJ Poet from 2013 (left AB/Penman ribbon, right Poets ribbon):

http://imageshack.com/a/img600/5410/fjlo.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img822/834/6ew7.jpg

I found it interesting that I could not see a difference in the structure or size, only a very small difference in the color hue. And I noticed the AB ribbon was a bit thicker. Here are just some thoughts:

Is it from the same manufacturer? I don't know. But if this is so, AB/Penman are not the only ones having access to it.

If it's not from the same manufacturer and if it is such a remarkable ribbon, why are AB/Penman the only hatters worldwide having access to this ribbon? What a ribbon manufacturer only has three customers? How can he survive this way?

I have done intesive researches in the last weeks in England trying to find this manufacturer. I have spoken to many hatters, ribbon manufacturers and Herbert Johnson. None of them had an idea. Must be a very, very small ribbon manufacturer.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, how does JP know it was also on every single hat in Temple or Crusade? I think it's very unlikely that every hat seen in the films had the same ribbon. And if that's true, AB / Penman are not the only ones offering true indy ribbon.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, why does no other hat from Herbert Johnson from this time period have such a ribbon?

I like the hats that JP makes, I just don't think his ribbon is the "only true" Indy ribbon. Just in case this question comes up: I am not Gunslinger and I don't know him. But I think Kurt is not that bad at all ;)

RusselJones
03-13-2014, 10:42 AM
The Penman fedora is gone now, but I have still my AB CS from Steve Delk. I have detached the ribbon some time ago, so here it is next to the Poets ribbon. Pics taken in bright sunlight without flash on a white sheet of paper. I can also make shots with a sable Poet, but that would be sable from "today".

http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o752/Dave22336/poet_ab_ribbon_1_zps9f032115.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o752/Dave22336/poet_ab_ribbon_3_zpsff3b03bb.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o752/Dave22336/poet_ab_ribbon_2_zps6a82a2c1.jpg

TheExit148
03-31-2014, 06:20 PM
This thread has been a little quiet lately. I wanted to post a small update before I throw in some screen captures. I was watching Mythbusters last night, and it was the moonshiner myths episode. Adam was wearing his AB hat (I'm 99.99% sure that's what it is) and boy was that ribbon changing colours in different lighting. I'm working to get an HD source and grab some screen captures to show what I mean. Hopefully this helps out a bit.

EDIT:

I found a vid from 2012 of Adam talking about the Hat, and mentioning Mark Kitter, and ABD. So the hat is from AB. He talks about wearing his earlier hat in the motorbike flip myth, and now the hat he has (in the vid too) is his new hat that Mark made him.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/30766/adam-savage-about-my-indiana-jones-hat

neutronbomb
03-31-2014, 06:45 PM
I'm working on stuff also and re-reading through the thread. The truth is I'm undecided. Mac and Gunslinger both make great points in my opinion. I am really leaning towards the hat from screenused being legit. Unfortunately I didn't have the AB Deluxe in Kauai, but will be going back later this year hopefully with a professional camera with polarizer and filters. I read in one of these links someone posted about interviews, etc. that they used a color enhancement filter in Hawaii. I'll have to try and find where that was.

TheExit148
04-01-2014, 09:29 PM
Ok I have a few screen shots from the Mythbusters episode. Now, based on the video above, and that this episode is from 2014, we can confirm that the hat he is wearing is his AB. You can really see how much the ribbon changes colour throughout the episode! It goes from brown to very dark brown depending on lighting etc.

Here is the link to the album: http://imgur.com/a/bDX8h

Here are a few shots from it.

http://i.imgur.com/9EYOxvr.png

http://i.imgur.com/QisPbAy.png

http://i.imgur.com/js88Bec.png

http://i.imgur.com/EB5ildC.png

http://i.imgur.com/QawpuFA.png

neutronbomb
04-01-2014, 11:07 PM
Nice. Thank you for posting these.

neutronbomb
04-18-2014, 02:45 PM
Mac, has the Raiders Hawaii photo you used in your compare been lightened to a mid-brown? The one I have is from several years ago and I don't know if it is the original, unaltered version.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/r95.jpg~original



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/KOTCS-Raiders-13_zps9b967482.jpg

The AB ribbon is something of a chameleon. It demonstrably runs the gamut from appearing mid brown to very dark.

If you assert that the Hawaii hat somehow escaped filter darkening and that the color timing (foiling?) technicians were napping during that scene, (or perhaps the famous photo is a promotional shot captured by an SLR,) and that that shot is a more faithful rendering of the ribbon, AND also that KOTCS, being captured on more modern film stock, is practically true to life, THEN this KOTCS ribbon matches very well the Hawaii ribbon. The KOTCS AB in the bottom right corner is a behind the scenes shot – go figure.

indydude18
04-18-2014, 04:03 PM
NB, from what I've seen only on screen and from the pictures of the Desi fedora, I think the Raiders ribbon is more of a chocolate brown that actually grey or black. To me, it looks as though HJ's current offering and Penman's ribbon seems too dark. Maybe this is due to dye lots or different materials used now than opposed to materials used during Raiders. Can anyone chime in on this?

Mac
04-18-2014, 08:03 PM
Mac, has the Raiders Hawaii photo you used in your compare been lightened to a mid-brown? The one I have is from several years ago and I don't know if it is the original, unaltered version.

Not that I am aware of NB.

neutronbomb
04-21-2014, 06:40 PM
I looked back through the thread and didn't see this one. I think it's been around awhile, but we might as well have it here. Also, I'm looking for the original source for this photo as the one Mac posted in the ribbon discussion thread is much lighter. If anyone comes across this photo where it's a different lighting than this one, I'd love to see it.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Jacket%20Pictures/r95.jpg~original


ADMIN EDIT: Copied from the rare and deleted pictures thread

Mac
04-21-2014, 07:42 PM
Full size:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RaidersHawaii-LARGE_zps9d49463a.jpg~original


ADMIN EDIT: Copied from the rare and deleted pictures thread

neutronbomb
04-22-2014, 02:01 PM
The thing is one of these looks to be color and exposure adjusted. I just don't know which one it is. For instance the shirt color is different. Face color. Hat and ribbon color. You can also see the exposure difference on the bag strap and the shirt. Where the button on the shirt below where bag strap crosses is less visible on one.

It would be interesting to know if these were part of the behind the scenes on the DVDs, blue ray.


ADMIN EDIT: Copied from the rare and deleted pictures thread

Mac
04-22-2014, 05:34 PM
The thing is one of these looks to be color and exposure adjusted. I just don't know which one it is.

Yeah, NB, it almost as if – we can’t rely on photos to faithfully represent color or something! :);)

Seriously though, I would wager that the version NB posted was the edited and the larger one the original. For one thing NB’s version is cropped on all sides, including the bottom. Obviously the resolution is lower and compression artifacts are present that are not in the larger version that I posted. Which begs the question: if NB’s photo represents the original colors, then where is the higher res uncropped version?

It’s possible that in NB’s version the colors were adjusted ‘warmer’ to compensate for the color shift due to correcting the overexposure in the bottom half of the original.

There are other subtle differences between the two which likely point toward the larger one being the original:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/HawaiiNBVersionAnnotated_zpsa55c3eee.jpg~original


ADMIN EDIT: Copied from the rare and deleted pictures thread

neutronbomb
04-23-2014, 11:40 PM
Mac, I got mine back in 2009 from http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/screens/r95.jpg.

I'm going to copy the last part of our discussion back over to the ribbon thread where we are discussing all about color etc.

ADMIN EDIT: Copied from the rare and deleted pictures thread

neutronbomb
05-18-2014, 07:23 PM
Check out 'today's featured picture' here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

indydude18
05-19-2014, 06:08 AM
Kumar Anish?

ThrowMeTheWhip
05-19-2014, 06:38 AM
It was a neutral density filter. Dunno why he didn't just link to that. But that makes far more sense as pertains to how colors appear in a film. Lenses and filters and different types of light all render colors differently. A neutral density filter would definitely skew our perception of a color as it appears on film to how it really would be in other conditions.

neutronbomb
06-01-2014, 08:27 PM
The reblocked AB Deluxe showed up at the post office a couple of days ago. I found Patterson working there. He's working there undercover for George Lucas and Disney. The photo of him and the girl was a screen test for the new Indy reboot film that has been in the works for a few years. He personally really liked the girl, but they decided ultimately to go a different direction with the love interest. However, he does get the lead as Indy as part of the compensation for negotiating the sale of Lucas Films to Disney. The post office gig is a research assignment for a new Disney/Lucas film about mental health patients that are employed by the USPS. He will be reporting directly to George on issues related to how much the script deviates from the reality of day to day post office work.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/jessicarabit1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/jessicarabit1.jpg.html)http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/A0D916FF-4DC1-4362-A5D9-9794F2AB6289_zpsfhcxivir.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/A0D916FF-4DC1-4362-A5D9-9794F2AB6289_zpsfhcxivir.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/328F36B0-AFA5-42A6-B2A0-24580C655AD3_zpspa1h6fnt.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/328F36B0-AFA5-42A6-B2A0-24580C655AD3_zpspa1h6fnt.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/33065A00-5E91-4DDA-B7A0-610A918CB537_zpszn2bzalc.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/1%20-%20oregon%20state%20hospital/33065A00-5E91-4DDA-B7A0-610A918CB537_zpszn2bzalc.jpg.html)

djd
06-01-2014, 08:33 PM
Lol! Close...

Gunslinger
06-02-2014, 05:45 AM
ROFL

Indiego Jones
06-02-2014, 03:26 PM
The reblocked AB Deluxe showed up at the post office a couple of days ago. I found Patterson working there. He's working there undercover for George Lucas and Disney. The photo of him and the girl was a screen test for the new Indy reboot film that has been in the works for a few years. He personally really liked the girl, but they decided ultimately to go a different direction with the love interest. However, he does get the lead as Indy as part of the compensation for negotiating the sale of Lucas Films to Disney. The post office gig is a research assignment for a new Disney/Lucas film about mental health patients that are employed by the USPS. He will be reporting directly to George on issues related to how much the script deviates from the reality of day to day post office work.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Looks very close!

The old days...
You even make me remember the "Pentagon" job he had... :rolleyes:

ThrowMeTheWhip
06-02-2014, 05:53 PM
Is it just me, or is that jacket really ill-fitting on him?

What a clown.

crismans
06-02-2014, 08:00 PM
Is it just me, or is that jacket really ill-fitting on him?

What a clown.

A clown that was promoted as the real deal by those with an agenda for their website to have "inside information" unfortunately. The problem everyone has now in trying to get to the bottom of these topics is not only researching information about items that weren't that well catalogued (who would on the set of Raiders could have imagined we would be closely analyzing jacket and hat details 30+ years later), but also having to sift through all the crap that has been spun as fact over the years.

IfAdventureHasAName
06-02-2014, 08:47 PM
BTW, speaking of Todd Hayes a.k.a. "Patterson" a.k.a. "Marcus90"...has there been ANY updated news concerning the...ahem... member account "hacking" issue? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Account hacked my butt. :lies:

djd
06-02-2014, 08:52 PM
I believe Edward Snowden has some NSA files about it

IfAdventureHasAName
06-02-2014, 08:58 PM
I believe Edward Snowden has some NSA files about it

LOL!! :p ;D

neutronbomb
06-02-2014, 10:43 PM
Indy_cheers

Cheerio ole chap...or whatever it is that Marcus90 says.

ThrowMeTheWhip
06-03-2014, 05:00 AM
A clown that was promoted as the real deal by those with an agenda for their website to have "inside information" unfortunately. The problem everyone has now in trying to get to the bottom of these topics is not only researching information about items that weren't that well catalogued (who would on the set of Raiders could have imagined we would be closely analyzing jacket and hat details 30+ years later), but also having to sift through all the crap that has been spun as fact over the years.

Oh I know. I was there. Got banned from COW not because of that, but during that whole debacle.

neutronbomb
06-03-2014, 10:28 PM
Yes. Sorry about that. At the time it was the featured picture of the day and I just grabbed and posted the link from my iPhone. Here it is again with the proper link. Pretty interesting reading. Below is the photo that the 'picture of the day' was referencing. In looking at it, it makes me really think they were using that for the Hawaii shoot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_density_filter
140


Check out 'today's featured picture' here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

neutronbomb
06-04-2014, 03:58 AM
Here's the ABD beaver felt reblock back from Gunsliger. This should make Mac happy and better able to sleep nights knowing all is once again....all is right with the world :)

A phenomenal job bashing and the downsizing and rebuild of the hat is perfect. Really outstanding work. Especially since beaver is so much denser and more difficult to shape, I've found anyway. It's really cool how he was able to bash so, as a few of these photos show, as to replicate the mushrooming effect the film fedora has in some photos. But it can be seen from the photos that it is a pretty rad optical illusion.

In getting it back and looking at the ribbon again, I went back through my pics of the hat and found something we should maybe take a look at Gunslinger.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/ABDreblock_zpsb56ec254.jpg

Indiego Jones
06-14-2014, 02:03 PM
Looks perfect RAIDERS!!!!!!
Congrats both of you.-

Harry Steele
01-26-2015, 02:47 PM
Hi, I was taking a look at this thread, and remembered one fact that maybe is not being considered here.
These are pics of two S&J fedoras, a clean Last Crusade and a pretty dirty Raiders. Both made with the same felt and same ribbon.
Both pics were taken in the afternoon, about 2pm, under direct sunlight, one in Rome, one in Bolivia.
Just look how the fullers earth makes the lighter ribbon to look totally matt and darker, almost black.

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo78/Harry_Steele/SJRibbon.jpg (http://s363.photobucket.com/user/Harry_Steele/media/SJRibbon.jpg.html)

I guess this should be considered when trying to match those colours seen on the screen, cause maybe the clean ribbons which are compared here would look very different when dirt is added. Or maybe not. Someone should try...

Indiego Jones
01-26-2015, 04:51 PM
100% agree!

The dirt/make-up on the ribbon affects the way the lighting (natural or artificial) comes reflected from the fabric.
Changing the color perception of it, to a darker shade.

And I'm convinced happens the same with the jacket, in the desert scenes, where looks almost black.-

JeffDJ
01-26-2015, 08:07 PM
Ya, I love the look of the dirty Raiders one. It looks like it coulda come right of Harrison Ford's head in the movie! :)

Harry Steele
01-27-2015, 01:02 AM
I guess the dirt does most of the work, that's why I say it should be considered when comparing any ribbon with the one seen on the screen...

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo78/Harry_Steele/sj.jpg (http://s363.photobucket.com/user/Harry_Steele/media/sj.jpg.html)

Even the felt looks different...

Harry Steele
01-29-2015, 01:51 AM
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo78/Harry_Steele/LosDos2.jpg (http://s363.photobucket.com/user/Harry_Steele/media/LosDos2.jpg.html)

Same felt and ribbon, outside. Shadow and under direct sun. Always same ribbon, always different.

Gunslinger
07-23-2015, 11:24 AM
I've just been watching The Goonies with my kids.

146. 147

So let me get this straight with the ribbon...

This super-dooper, secret, very dark brown/almost black never-otherwise-found ribbon specially fitted to the Raiders hat (in a way identical to the factory hat, mind you) was also supplied to the costumer of The Goonies to be fitted to Robert Davi's hat?

Is this what people believe? Yes? No?

Do you think they weathered this one too? Sprayed it with bleach?

Or do ya reckon maybe the makers of Goonies just bought a factory hat? ...with a normal brown ribbon like they had in the 1980s? ...that appears super dark brown/blackish on similar Kodak motion picture stock / filters to what Raiders was shot on?

Indiego Jones
07-23-2015, 03:00 PM
Factory hat. No doubt.

The Goonies, one of my favorites movies too!

Mac
07-23-2015, 04:18 PM
...with a normal brown ribbon like they had in the 1980s? ...that appears super dark brown/blackish on similar Kodak motion picture stock / filters to what Raiders was shot on?

Ok, I’ll bite :)

A better question would be why the ribbons in TOD & LC generally appear to be lighter and less contrasty than those in Raiders when they are all possess the exact same director and cinematographer, and (it’s reasonable to presume) cameras, lenses, stock, grading, etc. If all those are constant, wouldn’t the variable seem to be the shade of ribbon?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Trilogy%20Hat%20Comparison_zpsdz6tpv3b.jpg


By the by, here are three purportedly screen used hats from each of the three original trilogy films, none of which could plausibly have been photographed with “similar Kodak motion picture stock / filters to what Raiders was shot on.” The first two were photographed by the same person, likely in the same spot with the same camera. The ribbons look quite different without need of technical justifications – some are simply shaded differently and darker than others.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/SCREENUSED%20HATS_zpsaxvbnbad.jpg

Love The Goonies though!

Gunslinger
07-24-2015, 07:44 AM
Goonies is great. :)

I guess the thing is we already discussed the "better" questions earlier, so I'll avoid rehashing. My argument is essentially that the Raiders ribbon seen on your shots above can VERY easily present as a much darker ribbon even though it isn't in real life. Goonies is just yet another source that shows this. As many people have shown, a lighter (mid brown) ribbon with a fairly high amount of sheen (like your final image in your post) can appear darker by virtue of a) film stock used, b) filtration c) distressing, causing dullness (and thus darkness) on film.

Yet importantly, the opposite cannot occur as far as anyone has been able to provide evidence for.

A note that the ToD ScreenUsed shot is more exposed / washed out than their Raiders shot, so it's actually not the best for comparative purposes.

But to answer another part of your reply, is that no, it's NOT reasonable to presume.

148

Kodak was notorious for changing the contrast levels and chemical responsiveness curves of the same lines of Motion Picture film stocks every few years. They basically did this for marketing reasons to tie in with emerging / cyclical fashions of cinematography. In other words, they would amp up the contrast (so lower tones would punch darker, light tones brighter) so they could show off how much more "dynamic" the new year's stocks were. Then repeat the cycle every few years. Thus you could be shooting Col Neg 2 / 5247 in 1980 and 1984 (or even 1985 with Goonies) with identical filters, approach to T-stops, etc. and processing, but end up with a different result even though it's an identically labelled film stock, shooting identical ribbon.

Gunslinger
07-25-2015, 03:05 AM
Thought this may be of interest re Herbert Johnson factory hats of the Raiders era and their ribbons, so please forgive the double-post for relevancy's sake:

Herbert Johnson 1978 stitching.

149

Notice at the far top left of where the front of the bow would connect - the little pinch, and just below that, how the way the thread is tied on about 5mm down creates tension towards the top front of the ribbon?

Then again, the ripple halfway down the ribbon height - where the horizontal fold is?

While we're at it, let's also note how the bit sticking out from behind & above the bow matches the Raiders hat, as does the general fits of frayed ribbon ends at the bottom.

150

Hmmm...
151

Mac
07-25-2015, 03:10 AM
a lighter (mid brown) ribbon with a fairly high amount of sheen (like your final image in your post) can appear darker by virtue of a) film stock used, b) filtration c) distressing, causing dullness (and thus darkness) on film.

Yet importantly, the opposite cannot occur as far as anyone has been able to provide evidence for.

Behold!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Screen%20Used%20Raiders%20Hat%20vs%20Film%20Hats%2 0Lighter%20Ribbon_zpsd0u6qmdd.jpg


Regarding the presumption about film stock, yes I agree it likely changed from film to film based on what was available that year. The point was more along the lines of, if the stock was responsible for making the ribbon appear darker, why would the ribbon in Goonies appear darker than the one in TOD (and more like the one in Raiders?) One would expect the stock of TOD to be closer to Raiders than Goonies (for continuity), yet the TOD ribbon usually seems lighter than Raiders (because it was lighter) while the Goonies appears darker (because it was darker, like the Raiders ribbon.) Goonies was filmed the year after TOD, so the stock may have been the same as TOD, but probably not the same as Raiders.



This super-dooper, secret, very dark brown/almost black never-otherwise-found ribbon specially fitted to the Raiders hat (in a way identical to the factory hat, mind you) was also supplied to the costumer of The Goonies to be fitted to Robert Davi's hat?

I know of at least six hat companies that use that ribbon, so it’s hardly a secret, though it seems to be rare(r) outside of the European market where it’s manufactured. That doesn’t strike me as unusual.

As I’m sure you know, Steven Spielberg was the executive producer of Goonies (along with Frank Marshall and Kathleen Kennedy) and the fact that Robert Davi wears a brown fedora is in no way a coincidence. I’m surprised that you cannot allow that it might actually be the same ribbon – on an HJ with a different crease. That seems at least as plausible as the “film stock & filters turn medium brown ribbon into dark brown ribbon” hypothesis.

As for Davi's hat being a factory hat, from a quality perspective, HJs by that time (mid 1980s) are little better than factory hats.

I was compelled to watch Goonies on Blu-ray yesterday just to see the hat :), and, yes, it appears to be the Raiders ribbon to my eyes, or at least very much closer to it than either the TOD or LC ribbon.

Gunslinger
07-25-2015, 06:41 AM
None of those ribbon shots you show look "lighter" to me. Below is what I'm saying a "darker" ribbon (IE the long-accepted accepted Indy hat shade) can't replicate, until someone can prove otherwise:

152

The Kodak stock contrast cycle happened every few years if I recall, and it did indeed start back where it started again, only with less grain. (Look up Kodak T Cells if you really want some thrilling reading.) So the year of Goonies vs. various Indy movies doesn't mean THAT much. Do also remember that it's just PART of the equation - the aperture and its relationship to what's in the frame at any given time have an even bigger impact on what the shades come out like. So bear that in mind - particularly as Goonies is clearly shot in much more overcast, even, diffused light than Raiders.

See how much sheen the HJ ribbon in my (unpolarised) photo above throws out? Polarisers take care of that, making the ribbon SEEM darker. But it's an illusion. Dirt / distressing will do the dame thing.

You're actually proving my point with the Amblin connection though, Mac - I think it's a factory ribbon. A factory ribbon on all 3 (cough) Indy movies, and Goonies. There is zero hard evidence for a "custom ribbon".

Mac
07-25-2015, 09:57 PM
a lighter (mid brown) ribbon with a fairly high amount of sheen (like your final image in your post) can appear darker by virtue of a) film stock used, b) filtration c) distressing, causing dullness (and thus darkness) on film.

Yet importantly, the opposite cannot occur as far as anyone has been able to provide evidence for.

I agree that various factors involved in the film making process can cause a ribbon to appear darker. I do not agree that the reverse cannot happen – that a dark ribbon cannot appear lighter due to various influences, including color grading and distressing.

I have to take issue with your point ‘c)’ above as well. Distressing tends to make a ribbon appear lighter, not darker. See Harry Steele’s photos above in this very thread.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/KOTCS%20Lighter%20Ribbon_zpsikbjre2z.jpg


And just for fun, another screen-used HJ with a dark ribbon that appears lighter and with less contrast on screen:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/Dr%20Who%20Tom%20Baker%20hat%20comparison_zps1dz7a aim.png

Gunslinger
07-26-2015, 06:45 AM
Come on Mac, those Adventurebilt hats / ribbons prove my point. They just don't skew a rich enough brown to be a match for that Hawaii / birds shot in the light from Raiders. I wouldn't call that a "lighter" ribbon - just a dark ribbon with brown dust on it, creating what's best described as a dusty look, not true brown. I've done the same thing with my black "flying wing" jacket - it looks right to your eye and in photos, but it's still a black jacket.

No-one to date has posted shots repeating my experiment (seen earlier this thread, featuring my son) to make a dark ribbon match what we actually see in the film.

So glad you posted the Dr Who shots! Thanks! I had a vague memory of his Herbert Johnson, but couldn't find any online. They actually totally support my lighter brown, "factory ribbon" theory. The shot on the left is absolutely 100% taken with a circular polariser tilted at close to 180 degrees of creating a blackish brown ribbon. You can tell by the way it makes the sheen pop rather than quashing it, washing out the whole ribbon's appearance. The one on the left is typical analogue video with no polariser - dull colours, not great blacks, and the ribbon in shade so the sheen doesn't pop.

So again, we keep coming back to my idea, which is that the ribbon is roughly the colour of the hat, NOT darker.

let go of your preconceptions, Mac, examine all I have put forward through this thread, not just in looking at Raiders, but the other movies, their hats / ribbons, the actual vintage hats that people have bought, and now Goonies and Dr Who. Even how the brown jacket consistently skews darker (again to practically black) in Raiders versus the other films. All the ACTUAL data only points one way.

Ram Man
07-26-2015, 01:19 PM
Gunslinger you have put forth enough evidence to support your theory. I have always been of the mindset that the ribbon was brown and not black, not even close to black. A very good example is Han Solo's parka in ESB. Many to this day will argue that it was black or dark blue when in fact it was brown. No doubt polarizers were used on the Hoth scenes as well to keep glare down from the snow. The archive photos obviously present these items in their truer colors!! I don't see ANY of them being black!

http://threads.rebelscum.com/photogallery/data//600/IMG_8417.jpghttp://www.jeditemplearchives.com/galleries/2010/Review_HanHoth2010SagaLegends/Review_HanHoth2010SagaLegends_still.jpg

Mac
07-27-2015, 01:59 AM
OK…you say that something’s impossible, I post photos showing it’s clearly possible…and yet it’s discounted due to [insert loophole here] … and furthermore it actually, somehow, proves your point…
That seems to be the ebb and flow of this entire thread. :)

So let me take a different tack. There is no question, based on photos of screen-used hats from the original trilogy, that the Raiders ribbon is darker than those in TOD and LC. Yes, I agree that the ribbon can and does frequently present darker in the film, due to factors on which we have previously concurred. The lighter TOD and LC ribbons can likewise present darker in the films. The question at hand is how dark is the Raiders ribbon in person, when not altered by various cinematography techniques, and does the AB ribbon resemble it under similar lighting conditions.

In the available screen-used Raiders hat photos, the felt appears darker than AB felt (even though it is distressed with dirt/dust/fullers earth), and possesses a rich red undertone that AB felt lacks. The darker, red-hued felt serves to reduce the contrast between it and the ribbon. Conversely, AB felt, being lighter and lacking the red undertone, increases the contrast between the two, making the ribbon appear darker under many lighting conditions.

Let’s compare the screen-used Raiders hat to a hat with darker felt with a red undertone, such as the AB Henry. The Henry uses the same ribbon as AB and of course none of these shots are from a film. The screen-used shots are not as well-known as the ones Desi posted on COW, but it is indeed the same hat.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsed%20Raiders%20vs%20AB%20Henry%20Ribbon_zp so38lz7wa.jpg

Would you agree that the AB ribbon on these Henrys presents remarkably similar to that of the screen-used Raiders?

Gunslinger
07-28-2015, 11:41 AM
Well, you know, Mac... I sometimes like to poke people a little to get at the facts - sorry! :)

But look, the Dr Who shots and these "new" ScreenUsed shots help give us info, which is great, and despite what some people would say, is actually the whole point of this place. I WANT to thrash out an argument with whatever people can throw at me so as to test this hypothesis.

The problem with the ScreenUsed shots (and no, not a loophole, just logic!) is that it's an apples vs. oranges comparison - both vs the Adventurebilt and its ribbon and the hat we see on screen; for a few reasons.

1. Its totally impossible to match felt hues to the era-specific Herbert Johnson (etc.) Sable based on photos. I've taken shots of numerous hats against it that look pretty much dead-on to the eye (including both an Adventurebilt Deluxe and a Steele & Jones body), and for some reason the vintage Sable skews in tone. This throws any sort of apples to apples assessment out the window. I know, believe me, it's frustrating.

2. The screen used hat is an old hat. Like, 30 years old. It was, to all accounts, thrashed to shit. Then it was used as a beater / fishing hat, if I recall, before being recognised for what it was and sold to Desi as a collector's piece. Old hats fade. The felt fades; the ribbon loses sheen, etc. So again, really crap benchmark for any sort of colour assessment vs. the ribbon. So again, nothing easy to calibrate to.

3. The mainly white background makes it really hard (nigh impossible ;) ) to do any sort of colour correction to make sure that hues are true to life.

4. These are all INSIDE SHOTS of the Desi hat and the AB Henry. They simply CAN'T represent a true indication of what the ribbon looks like vs. the film properly - outdoors, where we can see how the ribbon reacts to proper, direct sunlight - and yes, I'm thinking of this shot, again:
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To my eye in basically every shot I ever see of a hat with this AB ribbon, it looks too dark and washed out of colour to be a match to the vintage hats, and what we see on screen. I honestly believe, based on the Hawaii / birds shot and all my technobabbly film background that the screen hat was much more rich in tone than that. The bottom line is, I'd love a ribbon that can satisfy what I can see is going on on screen. I'd also love a definitive - or theoretical approximation of - an answer to this whole ribbon question that doesn't rely on the testimony of people who have a vested interest, one way or another.

To quote your own composite, Mac. It's just too dark to match:
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http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/ScreenUsedRaidersHat-HJRibbonComparison_zps32f24fe3.jpg

I've done all the legwork in showing that a lighter, bog-standard, vintage HJ ribbon can do everything we see on film and in Desi's shots. So I yet again ask that someone attempt to do the opposite with this darker ribbon. Take a shot of a hat with that exact same ribbon in daylight, and show me that their hat with the "correct" ribbon can replicate what we see in the Raiders' grab above. Post a link to an unaltered .raw or .nef file so as to remove any claims of Photoshop cheating, etc. If the ribbon really is the same, it simply won't be a problem.