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ba100583
01-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Hello all,

I am a long time member of the online prop research community, and I manage the Los Angeles office of Prop Store (www.propstore.com). I am also a lifelong fan of the Indiana Jones films. I have only recently discovered this forum, but was very pleased to do so. I spent some time reading a few of the research threads on the jackets and other wardrobe items, and enjoyed seeing some research based on facts instead of hearsay.

I have followed IndyGear and COW for a long time, but have always been very dubious of their information. The write ups on all of their jackets are incredibly complex - and in my experience, they are too detailed to be correct. I have had lunch with Anthony Powell a few times and the accounts they outlined of the TOD and LC jackets did not ring true with his recollections. Their account of the Raiders jacket does not align with interviews Deborah Nadoolman has given in the past. Their histories seem to have been written by Patterson, whose posts I regularly flagged as inaccurate (Bantu Wind scenes being shot on the soundstage, his account of the Raiders screening he allegedly attended with Spielberg, etc.), and I see on this forum that Patterson has been largely discredited.

I have researched Raiders quite a bit over the years. Here are some things that may be of interest to forum members:

Raiders Tanis Digs locations in Tunisia - http://www.propstore.com/content/tunisia/indianajones.html
Raiders Cairo locations in Tunisia - http://www.propstore.com/content/tunisia/indianajones2.html
Terry Leonard interview - http://www.propstore.com/cms/terry-leonard-blondes-and-hard-ground-part-1/
Set Decorator Michael Ford's journals - http://www.propstore.com/cms/decorating-raiders-michael-fords-journal/

Finding facts on original Raiders wardrobe is very difficult. In the Prop Store collection we had an original costume that was previously in the possession of Noel Howard, that many of you are familiar with. The shirts and trousers with that costume were from Raiders and were made by Western Costume Company. The jacket was from TOD and had a Bermans label. Those facts are from the labels in the garments.

I wanted to make a few observations on the history of this wardrobe.

1. I believe the commonly referenced "Butterfields" jacket was an early replica jacket rather than a film-used piece
2. Terry Leonard told me he never owned a jacket from Raiders
3. The jacket referred to as the "Kurtz" jacket is also not consistent with anything ever seen on screen
4. I have never seen any evidence whatsoever to suggest that Martin Grace had an original Raiders jacket at any point
5. Vic Armstrong never had an Indy jacket

I have read a lot on the forum about Tony Nowak having access to an original Raiders jacket. I understand Tony has an outstanding reputation, which I am not questioning -- however, did anyone ever see this jacket? Is there anything to confirm it was indeed a film-used original? I know it was suggested it came out of a studio in LA. As a side note, Paramount never owned any prop or costume assets from the Indy films (though they may have owned assets relating to distribution, like artwork for the one sheets.)

Finding paperwork on Raiders (or other Indy) costumes is more difficult. I have researched Raiders' executive producer Howard Kazanjian's files and he had very little documentation regarding the costumes.

I do have one interesting document that came from another member of the production team, which details what wardrobe items went into storage at the wrap of production on Raiders. This document states that they had six leather jackets. There is no further info - some of these could have been prototypes, unused, etc - absolutely no way of knowing. But, I do think it opens up the possibility that more than 3 jackets were used during filming.

I am attaching the document which I hope you all will find interesting. I hope that more facts surface in the future.

https://secure.propstore.com/img/products/916/Raiders%20Scan%201-2-14%20copy_wm.jpg

All the best,
Brandon Alinger

neutronbomb
01-02-2014, 08:38 PM
Welcome to F&G. Thank you for this post.

crismans
01-02-2014, 08:38 PM
Welcome to the boards, and thanks for an informative first post. I agree that a lot of the established "history" of the gear is suspect at best. I've often said that I think we're starting almost at ground 0 because, since Patterson has been discredited so often--let me add the Green Lantern jacket fiasco that occurred on Filmjackets to your examples--that we really can't believe anything he said. Efforts like yours will go a lot to establishing a new, accurate history.

IfAdventureHasAName
01-02-2014, 09:01 PM
Welcome to "Fortune and Glory", Mr. Alinger a.k.a. "ba100583". THANK YOU for the information you have provided. It is greatly appreciated. :goodjob: Looking forward to your future contributions to the board.

- - - Updated - - -


Welcome to the boards, and thanks for an informative first post. I agree that a lot of the established "history" of the gear is suspect at best. I've often said that I think we're starting almost at ground 0 because, since Patterson has been discredited so often--let me add the Green Lantern jacket fiasco that occurred on Filmjackets to your examples--that we really can't believe anything he said. Efforts like yours will go a lot to establishing a new, accurate history.

Well said, "Crismans". Well said. :toast:

djd
01-02-2014, 10:24 PM
By far the most useful jacket research I've seen on any indy forums are the screen capture observations on this forum. A process made more accurate since the bluray releases. What this seems to show is that a very few jackets were actually used in the production which, again runs counter to the various fantastic takes on other forums. In the absence of documentation the eyes are the best guide!

HENRY JONES JR.
01-03-2014, 12:13 AM
WELCOME! Please post more, and stay with us!

indydude18
01-03-2014, 01:17 AM
I wonder if the "1 grey felt hat" is THE GREY FELT HAT! Awesome post! Thank you! Indy_cheers

Gunslinger
01-04-2014, 06:16 AM
Hi Brandon,

Great to have you here. IIRC there is a member who was there when Tony had the Raiders jacket - Tony threw it at him if I recall(?) - I'm pretty sure there would be some posts here about that.

Re: http://www.propstore.com/content/tunisia/indianajones.html - FANTASTIC STUFF!

fifthchamber
01-04-2014, 07:54 AM
Very interesting stuff..

Thanks for the write up Mr. Alinger!!

I wonder what that would mean for the Expedition jacket then? If there wasn't a spare jacket used by the stunt crew that was kept, then.....What was the expedition based on? Nothing much more than eyeballs?

Either way, fascinating....Thanks for the post, and welcome to the forum...

Gunslinger
01-04-2014, 11:41 AM
If I remember my fairy tales correctly, the whole story of the jacket that led to the Expedition was fabricated as well. Once we got enough pieces of the puzzle it became very clear Patterson was full of it there too. None of his notes made any sense when compared to anything else. IIRC someone examined a Wested replica, at best.

Indiego Jones
01-04-2014, 07:40 PM
If I remember my fairy tales correctly, the whole story of the jacket that led to the Expedition was fabricated as well. Once we got enough pieces of the puzzle it became very clear Patterson was full of it there too. None of his notes made any sense when compared to anything else. IIRC someone examined a Wested replica, at best.

Exactly.
The Expedition story was a very elaborated plot to convince as many costumers as possible to buy the jacket.
As an exchange ALL the perpetrators (of course there's more than one) received free jackets. Some people sell their integrity very cheap...

Brandon, WELCOME! And thanks for sharing this info.

Kind regards.-

crismans
01-04-2014, 08:35 PM
Exactly.
The Expedition story was a very elaborated plot to convince as many costumers as possible to buy the jacket.
As an exchange ALL the perpetrators (of course there's more than one) received free jackets. Some people sell their integrity very cheap...



Unfortunately, we were all witness to the same thing later on. But, I try to remind myself that's the past and with the efforts of this board and others (some, not so much ;) ), I think we'll get to most of the facts.

fifthchamber
01-04-2014, 11:37 PM
Yeah...That was what I suspected....

I went back through the forum posts on the Expedition...Just to be sure, but Patterson's stories were riding in the face of Brandon's post above, and I wanted to check....

That's sad.....I mean, yeah, I've never seen the Expedition as being "screen accurate", at all....It's far from it, but there are people out there who bought it based on the other forum's consensus that it was "lineage"....And that's not so cool at all....If what you're saying is that the heads of the forum were "helped" to believe that story by getting free jackets, then, indeed, very cheaply sold out...

Worrying....

- - - Updated - - -

........Of course, so much was deleted when Patterson outed himself that it makes the finding of details rather difficult..

But it's clear that the origins were based on a fiction......If, now, a somewhat smudged fiction.....

fifthchamber
01-05-2014, 12:22 AM
http://s307.photobucket.com/user/slydini/media/Raiders%201/IMG_3479.jpg.html

Incidentally, in exploring all this again, I found these photos.......Now, I loved Tony Nowak...But wouldn't this, as the first of the "authentic Raiders" he was making, have been closer to the film? If he was working off two screen used jackets? There are several discrepancies, and I'm strongly beginning to think that all Tony did was what Todd, and all the rest of us have done..He eyeballed it...And gradually worked his designs closer to what we needed/what can be seen as we responded to his designs coming out....Fine tuning as he made them?

If so, that would open the floor immensely.....Making all the jackets we wear now, whoever makes them, based on a LOT of sweat and work, but all done by eyeball and done by fans crazy enough to bother..

This, also, seems to back up what Brandon said above......Alarming.....Although, rather expected really..

Gunslinger
01-05-2014, 02:39 AM
No, that's "Slydini's" jacket. (I think that was his nickname) This got covered to death at an earlier date. Long story short, that jacket is a complete anomaly. There was a coincidence of a few things going on at the time, and it all made sense as to why the differences between it and literally every other Raiders he made. 000/888 is the one to make most note of.

Personally I think that the OTT /OCD comparisons, overlays, examinations and measurements of 000/888 that we have done firmly establish Tony's copy as the real deal. Beyond reasonable doubt. I'm not saying that as any sort of a Tony fanboy - the guy had limitations like any of us. To my eye and thought, the only area where I think he got it wrong was that the particular shrunken lamb species used was a bit too pronounced in its graining. Other than that, everything checks out in ways that Tony wouldn't be able to test the way we have (eg, screen overlays, etc. that confirm the "wrong" cut, other shapes & proportions, sizings, placement, etc. all matching.)

Plus that minor factor of him having made the jackets for CS.

Plus the fact that he was hardly going to risk future Hollywood jobs by making up bullshit stories about his employers and what they gave him access to in order to sell some fake knockoffs.

fifthchamber
01-05-2014, 04:09 AM
Hmm....I see...I guess that's a relief of a kind.....Although still not firm proof either way eh?

Are there any photos of the first jacket Tony made from the originals then? Those would go a fair way towards helping sure it up some...

As for "fake knockoffs", nah, no one could accuse Tony of that at all...His work wasn't cheap enough to come close, but he may have been able to push some of the solid facts up a touch...It's not like Lucas would have noticed..Although yeah, Tony being Tony, I agree, it's not likely....

Just wondering....If one jacket shows up as "loose", we could use some more scepticism all over perhaps...

Gunslinger
01-05-2014, 05:17 AM
I think there's plenty of "proof" - depends on your definition.

Lots of pictures of 000/888 around - that's the one you're after.

fifthchamber
01-05-2014, 07:23 AM
Always does eh?

I'm not looking to find anything special...I liked Tony too much...Never met him, but he's always been a solid bloke, and he bodybuilt with Arnold..So, he's all good with me..Just interested in what there was to firm it up....His version was always the closest out there, so I was shocked to see the 001/888, that was all....It's not right...But I'll have a look for the 000/888 for sure..Thanks for the advice!

Proof wise, well...We had Patterson for years...I don't think anything else could open things up as much as his lies...So...I'm fine with what I have now..

fifthchamber
01-05-2014, 12:31 PM
Having just gone through the whole COW debacle around the Tony jackets, and then followed it up with the FilmJackets check on the ToD jackets, I agree...Tony does seem to be the best bet all round....Despite his being unable to say who sent the jackets to him, based on what he made after he saw it? I'd agree, it seems that he's the best bet...

Neutron's post on Filmjackets had most of the important points covered...Thanks for that, and thanks Gunslinger for filling me in on the rest of it....

Oildale Jones
01-05-2014, 10:03 PM
Welcome, Brandon! I've enjoyed your posts over at the RPF, especially the Raiders stuff. Always nice to have more expertise to draw on.

IfAdventureHasAName
01-13-2014, 02:57 PM
Mr. Alinger,
If possible, I would like to hear, as many others here would, what Anthony Powell recollections were concerning the "Temple of Doom" and "Last Crusade" jackets. Would be greatly appreciated.

RCSignals
02-07-2014, 09:58 PM
Thank you. A very good post, and welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading more from you


I agree on the Butterfield's and Kurtz jackets. Do you think they are the same jacket?
As far as I know the 'Kurtz' jacket is now owned by Paul Allen, or was

I recall there was a display at a museum in California a few years ago. It included the Kurtz jacket and KOTCS jacket. Tony Nowak was in Sacramento and visited the display, he confirmed the KOTCS jacket displayed was one he made, but said something about the display labelling it to one of the other movies, Last Crusade maybe. The Paul Allen 'Kurtz' jacket was mislabelled to KOTCS. Tony said that (Kurtz) jacket was not what had been sent to him to make the KOTCS jacket.


As for the Raiders jacket Tony had. Much of that information has been 'polluted' by the individual you mentioned and others. What I know is that anything Patterson said about it or about Tony Nowak should be put straight in the circular file

My recollection tells me the jacket did not come from a 'studio' as such, and it is unclear whether the jacket was delivered to Tony or he picked it up from someone at a studio (not that it belonged to a studio)

There was one individual who has retold a story of being at Tony's shop and Tony "throwing" in his lap that Raiders jacket
Other than that I am convinced from discussions with Tony and later with one of his sewers that there was indeed such a jacket.

PLATON
03-18-2015, 09:22 AM
great thread, thank you Brandon!