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View Full Version : Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon



Gunslinger
01-01-2013, 09:48 PM
Again. The Indy ribbon was not a blend. It was 100% rayon. When Steve was working on the Indy 4 hats he had access to a lot. You can debunk it all you want but it is what it is.

it's not about debunking, it's about finding out the facts. So when you're talking vintage you're talking ribbon of the 1970s / early 80s era? Or earlier? As when youve spoken in the past, you were inferring it was stuff from say the 1950s rather than what they were contemporarily using on hats at the time of Raiders.

I have a whole big bag of ribbons from Herbert Johnsons of different eras as well as other hats from the 1940s on, and have found that the ones most similar to what we see on screen is just stock factory ribbon.

In any event, I guess you're right - I don't get why it's a big deal when you can easily get ribbons from practically any era on Etsy for $3 a length. Ribbon just ain't that rare if someone wants to switch.

Re the reflagging thing - absolutely agree with John - you need to want to take the time to learn a few skills. It's not "hard" but it will take a fair few hours of investment if you are going to make your own flange and/or block. But I found it totally worthwhile, as then you can make your own hats either from scratch or by modifying vintage or other hats you find for a very cheap price online. Anyway, that's another article....

bendingoak
01-01-2013, 11:29 PM
The guy who makes the Indy ribbon has been making ribbon for many , many years. Some time ago ribbon had a big overhaul on how it's made. Spun differently, adding blends and add material. Not all vintage ribbon is the same. What I'm say is this guy who makes the Indy ribbon makes it the old way and is the most Sought after in vintage ribbon. Just because something is old doesn't make it great. There are vairity of quality new and old. This guys just spins them the way they used to do them and hasn't changed since the be crossover period. The ribbon you see in the Indy movies is something special that most don't make today because they can't.

Gunslinger
01-01-2013, 11:42 PM
Ok, yes agreed. So the big question is what time period is the screen ribbon from, and was it used on standard factory hats until at least 1980? Because I have ribbons here from HJ hats of that era, and they exhibit the same qualities as what we see on screen - they are different from stock modern ribbon, but really not by very much at all, but they are also different from much older vintage ribbon - a much bigger leap in feel / pliability.

bendingoak
01-02-2013, 12:13 AM
This guy has been making them the same way. It more about when HJ started and stop using them. They don't use them anymore and haven't for some time.

Gunslinger
01-02-2013, 12:46 AM
This is what I'm saying. It's all about what ribbon was used on that hat, and whether it was a stock factory ribbon of the day, sewn on by the factory. From what I have seen of the HJ hats of the Raiders era, their factory ribbon is the same as what we see on screen. There are also other things that make me doubt that it was a special ribbon in any way. Such as how it was sewn onto the body.

eg. Here is a Herbert Johnson from 1976 compared with the actual screen used Raiders hat. One can see how the factory attaches the ribbon to the hat, and how the Raiders hat came to be the way it is. The tack points, the folds, the end of the ribbon all match up. Look at the little kinks halfway up the ribbon at the front and back, and the bulges - both due to the particular way the ribbon has been cinched. and folded. The way the top front of the ribbon is left exposed above the bow. The end of the ribbon at the bottom - it comes to the same point proportionate to the bow, and as you can see on the screen hat, was left frayed at EXACTLY the same points. The bow itself is constructed in an identical way (you obviously can't see the bow of the hat I have in this shot) - but the construction and amount of trim at the back is the same. My point is, I can duplicate the ribbon of the Raiders hat very precisely, by copying a ~factory~ hat/ribbon of the day. There are other things, but I will lay that out in a proper article sometime soon.

(Click on image to embiggen)

81

bendingoak
01-02-2013, 01:03 AM
You are judging the ribbon by how they sewn it on???????

- - - Updated - - -

Just looking at your two photos I can tell they are not the same ribbon. Look at the edge of the ribbon. Two different ribbons, try again.

Gunslinger
01-02-2013, 01:34 AM
Sorry, yeah, you're missing my point. The ribbon could ~only~ be "special" / vintage predating 1979-ish HJ production hats if it was sewn on manually. I am saying there is evidence that it was just a factory ribbon installation. If that's the case - and it certainly looks that way- it isn't a special ribbon - it was used on hundreds of hats (or however many) produced at the time that the factory used what their supplier was manufacturing.

The shot/ribbon I chose was for another purpose - I just chucked it in this thread - it is to show the installation layout, not the minutiae of the ribbon itself. It's actually a different size / colour to the Raiders ribbon. That's part of my point - it's different yet still THE SAME. Having said that, as I look at my original copies of each image that aren't murked with compression artifacts, they look the same to me at the edge.

bendingoak
01-02-2013, 07:31 AM
In your photos the edge is clearly different. The way the hat was sewn was clearly done by a sewing machine but I for one think the Raiders hat was a custom made by Richard. Your diffenition of special is a bit funny. Just because at one piont the ribbon was used on a lot of hats doesn't mean it isn't special. It's special in the fact that you don't have that level of quality made any more. There isn't a modern ribbon maker that can replicate it at all. I find it funny that you claim to be a purest when it comes to the felt being used. " mst be rabbit felt" but you could care less abouth the rest of the hat. The ribbon makes the hat for me. I have seen every Indy hats made by every company, custom hat maker and ametures and none of them gets close when it comes to the ribbon. There something missing. Its the pattern of the ridges, the way the ribbon reflects light, the weight of it. I could go on and on.

bendingoak
01-02-2013, 07:42 AM
Heres another thought for you. The felt used for the Raiders hat. Most people think it was a great rabbit felt. I personally, looking at Screne grabs can clearly see that it wasn't. It wasn't special, it was ok at best. My felt rabbit and beaver are a much better quality. The hat was made poorly. The Raiders hat wasnt a great hat in the sense of being a well made hat. It looked great because it looked so lived in. That's was for the fact that the costume maker did her job well. Now the Indy 4 hat was a much better made hat and had much better quality materials being used. Except for the ribbon.


The ribbon was special I the fact that it is made like ribbon should be. The Indy ribbon is of the highest of quality of what was great in the high piont of vintage ribbon. We don't have anything like that anymore. Back in the day it wouldn't be that special but because we can't get it from any currently modern made ribbon it becomes special.

I have yet seen any Indy hats being replicated that just nailes the look of the ribbon like the actual ribbon itself.

Gunslinger
01-02-2013, 09:37 AM
I guess it's all about what floats your boat and if your focus is on the ribbon, then that's great. I'm just pragmatic in the way I prioritise - I don't "just" focus on the felt. For the record, I only got into messing around with hats because I was dissatisfied with the ~shape~ of the hats out there. They just didn't say Raiders too me. All looked too bulky and just...wrong. So that was number one. Block shape. 2 is really felt colour (you can get away with more latitude there due to the way the hat hue shifts in Raiders). To me Rabbit was simply the only felt, and had never considered anything else. I hadn't actually realized how crap beaver was for a Raiders hat until I was tasked with reblocking an ABD. Just all wrong for it. Doesn't mean beaver is "bad" for hats - just not for one that's meant to look beaten up. The ribbon, I don't know - I just never had a problem getting the look out of a wide range of ribbons so it has never needed to be a priority or an issue. As I said in an earlier post, the only ribbon that was a ~real~ pain in the arse to replicate the look was a high quality vintage ribbon. But I would never dream of being worried about the finer details of the ribbon if I weren't happy that the hat looked too bulky first.

1000% agree with you that the hat is meant to look kind of crap. But it's just got to look crap in the right way. I have a hat made on 1950s HJ felt. BEAUTIFUL felt. I appreciate it, but it doesn't look as much like The Raiders as the still rigid but slightly more cardboardy late 70s HJ version, or the thinner-again 1984 version I sold to Raskilinov, or Diego's stuff for that matter.

So you haven't pegged when HJ stopped using Your definition of "special" ribbon as standard then?

bendingoak
01-02-2013, 04:56 PM
I guess we approach things differently. I'm a hat maker first. Then I work on trying to get the most SA accurate hat possible without replicating bad hat making on the Raiders hat. I guess details are important to me. Ill let other replicate bad hat making all they want. The Raider rabbit felt was crap. I dont want my hats only lasting a short while. I want my hats to look good for a long time and last for many , many years. I leave the prop making to others. I want to make real hats. My appoach has always been to make the most Sa indy hats ( all of them) but make them like they should have been made and could handle the adventures that you see in the movies. You quoted as being a purist but it doesn't apply to the ribbon. I find that strange. I have the Indy ribbon used on the movie hats makes a big deal to some. I know that ribbon real well. Had it tested at two different modern ribbon makers and found out a lot about it. It is made exactly the way ribbon used to be made when ribbon were at it's peak ( and hats ) most quality custom hat makers spend a lot of time going out of their way looking for high quality vintage ribbon and this Indy ribbon is made the same way. Makes it kinda special to have that in this day and age. The other thing I haven't seen any other ribbon that finishes a Indy hat like this stuff. One big reason because it is the Indy ribbon. Just like you will have rabbit felt made that will be close to the rabbit felt used b
It won't be exactly like what you see on flm because it isn't the same stuff. I have had people in the past debunk the ribbon as it wasn't something special but having the same ribbon used on Indys hats from the movie is a big deal.

Gunslinger
01-02-2013, 09:49 PM
I guess we approach things differently. I'm a hat maker first. Then I work on trying to get the most SA accurate hat possible without replicating bad hat making on the Raiders hat. I guess details are important to me...

First, let me clarify, the felt project is Diego's NOT mine. I'm just giving him my 2 cents along the way. That aside...

IMO I think you're really overstating how "crap" the Raiders felt was. Your USP is that your hats are the toughest out there, and that may well be the truth, but these other hats aren't just going to fall apart. Sure, by the Raiders period, the hats weren't of the golden age of hats in the 1950s (putting aside the toxically produced ones pre 1940), but they as well as the ones made by vendors other than yourself aren't just going to fall apart. It kind of gets tiresome to hear, actually. To me, the ribbon is a non-issue because it's FAR less important to the look because those tiny little stitches are indistinguishable on film. They're even indistinguishable in high quality photos. How about I post about a dozen ribbons of different eras - I'm assuming you will be able to pick which ones are "special"? I'd be very curious to know.

But look, at the end of the day, just as you can't understand why I don't get all sweaty about the ribbon, I don't understand how you are happy with your Raiders block shape. To me, many of your Raiders hats look ginormous in your customers pics. Like your block is too straight or something so it looks like they're wearing their Dad's hat. But again, horses for courses. This thread is vaguely about ribbon, not our differing opinion on each-others preferences. I have tried to speak to the facts of the screen hat. You still haven't provided evidence of how you know this "big deal" is "the" ribbon, or answered a fairly logical question of when by your terms HJ stopped making hats with ribbon you deem to be "special". I assume you are going to say "because Steve gave it to me". If that's the case, why in another moment are you saying you ~believe~ that the screen hat was a custom job? Wouldn't you ~know~ it? Because it would have to be in order for the hat to have a non-factory ribbon?

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 12:50 AM
You must be mixing things up. I never said anything about Diego. I find him to be a decent guy. You on the other hand is a different story. You got a hugh ego. You think you know everything and you know better then everyone. You need a little humility. I never said any other vendors hat will fall apart. Don't speak for me. I don't need to prove to you anything but by proving what I know about the ribbon I would reveal where to get it and I'm not doing that. Again, I'm not talking about how the ribbon was sewn on. Get off that. The ribbon it self does reflect light differently then any modern ribbon. This is the last I'm going to post about it. I came in trying to help and get attacked.

Gunslinger
01-03-2013, 01:49 AM
If you truly think you can call everyone else's ribbon inferior with zero evidence but your own say-so, but don't have maturity to handle someone sharing their honest opinion about something really obvious, then I'm not the only one with an ego problem. Get some perspective dude.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
01-03-2013, 02:48 AM
Indy_popcorn

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 02:55 AM
Maturity??? Really??? You attack me and my work when I don't agree with you. You are starting to remind me of Patterson.

Gunslinger
01-03-2013, 03:15 AM
Jeez. It's not about agreeing or not agreeing. You don't seem to understand that I LIKE the debate about the gear - it helps us to get at the facts. It helps us discover things like the CORRECT Raiders block shape or the CORRECT Raiders jacket leather. You know - minor things like that that the whole gear community can profit from.

But rather than answering straight-up questions about the ribbon, you make your sales pitch for how unique your hats are, then when we started to discuss the merits of that, you changed the conversation to you not being able to understand my priorities; so I told you what they were. You have a long history of going apeshit whenever I question you, starting with when I first revealed my Raiders block. You DO realise it's ok for other people to have opinions that differ to your own, right? The call these places on the internet "forums" for a reason. Man...

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 03:47 AM
I tried answering your questions the best I can at the moment. I can't answer all of them because I'm not going to reveal my source and would need to for your proof. Or at least part of it. You can see it as a sells pitch but I wouldn't have to defend my piont if I wasn't attacked by you at every piont. You don't have to be suspious of every person. I'm not HIM.

Apeshit???? If I went apeshit on you? I'm sorry but if I go apeshit on anyone. They have attacked me or someone I care about. So, either you did something really bad to piss me off or you are getting me mixed up with someone else. All I know is I was trying to talk with you and you attacked me. So the apeshit was you not me.

I personally think that the forums have been hurt by a particular person more then I ever thought could be. there is such a lack of trust and a lot of misunderstandings because of that. It's really sad. Good luck to you Kurt. I tried but can no longer put up with all of this. I have been attacked by so many people on so many different forums I have really grown tired of it. It's really getting old. I had hopes but I'm sorry to say I have to let it all go. I am a fan of the gear but can not enjoy in the talks anymore.

If someone asks me how to flange a hat. If I make the statement. This is the best way to do that job. Do I have to show proof that is what I have come to learn or do I need paper work. Do you see how silly it has gotten.

Gunslinger
01-03-2013, 04:47 AM
The main "apeshit" I am talking about is when Steve had made a really inappropriate comment in the form of "advice" after I had just started selling hats. I retorted and the next thing I know, you're going in, all guns blazing even though you had nothing to do with it. It was not cool.

The thing is, here we have a situation that's the reverse of another time, when I had announced my Raiders block. YOU thought it was not ok for me to make the grand claim of having found "the" block. This was even though I provided all the evidence that I could possibly deliver in the most brutal way that it was correct from every conceivable angle. (Never done before or since.) I do this in order to balance out any ego, or in Seinfeldian terms, "unbridled enthusiasm". I simply ask the same in return. What would you have done had the situation been reversed here? Do you see what I mean?

And here history starts to repeat. It looks like someone may finally have a felt for all intentions as close as we're ever going to get to Raiders vintage Herbert Johnson. Better actually, going by my experience of the felt, which was actually more akin to working with the older felts. Yet you poo-poo it before its even come out. YOUR ribbon is identical, yet anyone else's efforts will never be "the same stuff".

You DO make good hats, and they are by all accounts the hardiest out there. Just give other people credit, or at least apply the same rules as to yourself.

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 05:45 AM
You were very disrespectfull to Steve and you got what you deserve. You can disagree with Steve but you must give him his respect because without Steve non of these Indy hatters would be where they are today and that includes myself. You got what you deserve. You need a little humility. Heck you need a big case of it.

I have the Indy screen used ribbon and it's better then any modern made ribbon. I'm proud of it.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the photo shop photos of yours as proof as having made " the block"

I have no idea what felt project you are talking about so I can't poo poo all over it. Where are you getting that from.

I give credit to those who deserve them and I do. Please tell me what hat maker I don't give credit for? What does that mean anyway?

Gunslinger
01-03-2013, 09:16 PM
No. Just no, John. Fuck off. Steve was out of line and so were you. You and he aren't the centre of the universe. Get your hand off it. You ~are~ arrogant, but have no reson to be. You make hats for a living. If I am to be really that blunt, it simply isn't that hard a skill to pick up. More people could be making their own hats. You are good at it but you aren't curing cancer.

You think you and Steve haven't slagged off other vendors? How about Fedoraiders? He made his own block, using similar methods to how I did. Great block. The guy put in a lot of work, as I did. And how did Steve greet him? He in so many words he accused him of stealing your other compatriot's work - LLS or something? But he doesn't say that. He says something like "you had previously bought LLS's hat with that new blockshape didn't you?" - or words to that effect. Just enough to discredit. Because anything from outside your little click MUST be somehow a forgery, or built on the "greatness" of Steve. And if anyone DARE do anything like call you or he a dictator in defense, as Fedoraiders did, then you go apeshit. It really comes across like an inferiority complex to me. Fedoraiders couldn't have possibly achieved what he did, and I'm sure in your head you think I must have Photoshopped those overlays or something. Because it couldn't possibly be that dudes like us could just rock up and come up with something better in a very short time. Well, we did. Because on one level it isn't THAT hard - and it amazes me that people making hats for this long didn't get it right before people like us and Steele & Jones did. And also because other people can do good work - sometimes better than you seem to want to admit.

I provided more proof with my block than you do with your ribbon claim. I can't see any other way of being able to show more. If you can't see your double-standards then good luck to you. I'm not going to waste my time explaining a blow by blow of how you infer this or that in the way you say things.

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 10:36 PM
Fedoraraider far as I know bought both David's hat and then turned around and sold it. Then came up with his perfect block shape. First I don't think David's block shape is perfect. Good but not perfect. He bought one of my hats then turn around and sold it in a few days. Then he starts sewing his ribbon on like I do. Do I give a fuck. No I don't I didn't say anything about it. But it is funny that he buys hats and then makes improvements. I don't give a shit about any of that. I never said anything about it. Freew works do your biz anyone you want but I'm not impressed.



Ok, you want to talk big. You want to shit on me. Gloves are off. Yes, it's not that hard to show someone how to make a hat but to do it well, thats a different story. You are great with photo shop, you have a good block. You take a lot of time put in every little dimple in the crease that you see on film. But I don't care about that because once you handle and wear the hat it will change so what the piont unless you are only going to display it like a prop. I don't make props, I make real hats. I have seen one of your hats and you need more time making them then photo shop. You don't know how to sink a sweatband correctly. So get back to the bench. Your skill as a hat maker is a fucking joke.


As for steel and jones. I have never said anything negative towards them at all. I have said in the past that they seem like nice gentlemen. They put a lot of effort in their products and for that I have a lot of respect for. I have not seen their hats in person. I can't comment on their products. I wish one would come in for me to reblock so I can comment on their work. I would like to do nothing more then support Diego. I like him but I cant comment on something I haven't seen in person. Besides I do this for a living. This isn't a hobby. I have a kid to raise. I'm not in the biz to make anyone else money.

I hope people don't get fooled by your shit. How good can a persons skill who doesn't do it every day. Not good. So go ahead and lie to people and brag on how you are the greatest thing and you can do everything better then a man like Steve that has made more hats by hand then any current custom hat make combined. He looses more skill taking a shit every day then you ever will have.

Fuck off. Really. You would not say that to my face. You would get your ass beat so bad your family wouldn't recognize you.

Gunslinger
01-03-2013, 11:14 PM
How have I lied to anyone? I simply don't.
I have worn the hats that I have made, and the only changes that occur over time is to look even more like the Raiders hat.

As per usual,you dismiss block shape. Yet you keep mentioning Photoshop. Whatever.

Yes i would happily say that to your face. I'm only holding back from being harsher out of respect for the owner of this site. I'm sure you are a very big man and I'm sure a joy to live with.

And I think we've derailed the poor OPs thread enough.

bendingoak
01-03-2013, 11:53 PM
You live in your warped little world and I doubt you would say anything to my face.

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Do you even read. I didn't dismiss your block. Fucking once in while. Try keep you big mouth shut and you might read. I think all you want is me to validate you and I'm sorry. You are going to have to Grow up on your own.

I notice how you never answer anything but focus on your own delusions.


Wow. You know what the word respect means.

Gunslinger
01-04-2013, 12:14 AM
I don't need validation. It's all good. Ok let's let the guy have his thread back.

neutronbomb
01-04-2013, 01:40 AM
I have been very interested in this discussion and read everything and taken notes on every point. As succinctly as I can, what I have gathered so far about the ribbon used on the ROTLA fedora and the opposing opinions from Gunslinger and Bending Oak on this subject is this:

1. Gunslinger believes what he sees on the ROTLA film most closely resembles factory stock ribbon from the era of when Raiders was filmed and has modern rayon/cotton blend ribbon from HJ hats circa that era and they look like what is seen on the ROTA FILM. Furthermore, he showed a compare of SCREEN USED' fedora that is claimed to be the actual fedora worn by HF in ROTLA in which it appears that the ribbon is factory machine sewn on the fedora as it exactly matches the way other ribbons on HJ factory stock fedoras are also machine sewn leading to the conclusion that the ribbon was HJ's stock ribbon at the time HJ made the fedora and if so then also that the fedora was likely stock.

Bending Oak also confirmed that he also believes the ribbon on the SCREEN USED' fedora in the compare photo was machine sewn.

2. Bending Oak believes that in looking at the ROTLA film that he sees 100% rayon vintage ribbon from when ribbon making was at it's peak. The quality stuff that is the most sought after. The way it reflects light, the pattern of the ridges, the weight of it, etc. Also, based on what Steve Delk has told him, based on Steve's access to "a lot" in making the Indy iV fedoras, and with what he has found out about this particular sought after vintage ribbon from the guy who makes it, has given Bending Oak additional reason to believe the ROTLA film fedora had this "special" vintage ribbon. He also believes that Richard Swales hand made the fedora worn on film. Further information on this is not possible as it would give away Bending Oaks supplier of this special vintage ribbon. However with what he has shared to date, his argument points towards the ROTLA fedora worn on film not having HJ's stock ribbon at the time, 1980 era. Meaning that Richard Swale would have had the special vintage ribbon on hand and used that when hand making the fedora.

Which if true, seems to indicate that SCREEN USED' fedora used in the compare photo that shows the ribbon to be factory sewn could not be the fedora seen on the ROTLA film.

bendingoak
01-04-2013, 02:23 AM
Let me clear something up. For some strange reason people think factory made means robots or something. Or machine made means a robot did it. No, it means a sewing machine was used. Richard most likely sewn the ribbon on by machine in his hat shop. You can clearly see the placement of the tack down stitches and that falls were a machine can only go. Where as a hand sewn on ribbon can get at the brim break. You have more control with sewing with just a needle and thread then you do a sewing machine.

I do not think the ribbon was special that it was only used on the raiders hat. At the time it was a stock ribbon being used. Just like Steve and Marc use it on there factory hat called "the Henry" but if smart ass would shut his big mouth up once in a while he might learn something.

I had this ribbon sent to two different modern ribbon makers to see if it can be replicated. It can't by any modern ribbon maker. Why? One about 60-70 years ago the ribbon making process changed. They added other materials to rayon to cut cost and there was a start of updating machines that spins the material to make ribbon. They had to add a percentage of more material to do so that's why otton was mainly added. The pattern had to be made wider( or what people call the ridges) . This makes a difference on how light reflects onto the ribbon. That's how you see a lot of dark brown modern ribbon reflect with a purple under tone to them in some light. The ribbon isn't purple. It's the same dark brown color as the Indy ribbon but since the pattern and the material isn't the same it reflects light differently.

Neither one of these modern makers could replicate it and they came back with the same report. I also sent two different true high quality vintage ribbons to have tested with the Indy ribbon. They came back with the same results. So what we have here is someone making ribbon like they used to. In essenes high quality vintage ribbon. Ribbon like the vintage ribbon that most high end hatters kill for.

Personally it's a lot easier to work with modern ribbon. Most being rayon/cotton blends where this is pure rayon. They react differently to hear and water.


The reason I had it tested is that I wanted the facts behind the ribbon and to see if I can cut the cost of ribbon for me. This stuff is $18 dollars a yard. Most moder ribbon (grosgrain) of any decent quality can cost as low as 67 cents a yard but never much more then a $1.

So in a way. It isn't so special when ribbon was commonly made this way but now that ribbon is made differently it has become very special. We have a bit of the past still availible and a bit of Indy history. I would think that means something.

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One more thing. Not believes , I know what I have in my hands.

neutronbomb
01-04-2013, 02:57 AM
Thank you for clarifying. I wonder how HJ was using ribbon that it sounds like would have stopped being produced years and years ago as its stock ribbon. I would have imagined they were producing a lot of hats.

bendingoak
01-04-2013, 04:08 AM
Sorry for the confusion. I must not have explained myself well enough. Most ribbon makers changed around the same time but it didn't happen all in the same year. They (indy ribbon maker ) never stopped making the ribbon. The ribbon maker has been making that same ribbon for a very long time , they just never changed over.. And its not the only ribbon they make. I use thier ribbon in many different colors and sizes. They never changed the way they operate. HJ stopped using them and went with another maker. I could only assume to save cost. Just like they changed felt makers. It happens all the time.

AB uses that ribbon on there handmade /custom hats as do I but they also use it on their factory hats.

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That same ribbon is my stock ribbon. I also use true vintage ribbon. At the same time you can say this is vintage ribbon being made today because it is being made the same exact way. That's my piont. Very special because no one makes this stuff anymore but one company.

bendingoak
01-10-2013, 01:56 PM
Is that all you can do? Is attack me? If what I say isn't true how come you don't show anything different then what Mark Kitter has done in his thread. His thread was to show how long a ABD takes to make one, not a tutorial. There are many details left out. Just like yours. You have left out steps and the others. You are misleading people. Also some of your steps are done wrong.

Gunslinger
01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
Again, you don't consider YOUR comments an attack? To both undermine and criticize?

Anyone can read my guide and see a LOT of totally original content that has never been explained to people before. And again, in doing so, you confirm your oft-vocalised viewpoint that a small group of people are responsible for everything worthwhile, and you patently ignore everything else. Eg how to make an accurate Raiders block as seen here. Did YOU make your own Raiders block btw? How did yours come about? Because I spent hours working out a system to make one. That was the biggest trick, and one I have GIVEN the Indy community, including YOU.

But no, it seems to boil down to an inference (though now its getting beyond just inferring - more like accusing) that all myself and others have ever done is copy a few notes on a website. Well my friend, I think my wife would have something extreme to say to you about that. The poor woman has had to put up with me for years researching every aspect of the Raiders hat. Chatting to hatters here in Australia, including a great guy at Akubra, spending the better part of a month of our New Zealand holiday about 3 years ago stopping and talking to hatters and checking out vintage blocks. (great hat making academy at Napier, btw). I spent about one month to 6 weeks refining the block alone, practicaly my whole summer holidays that year. And the list goes on. I would say that the total input from your buddies amounts to about 5% if I were being generous. I remember that thread you speak of vaguely. I remember him boiling a pot, talking about some crazy high amount of grittted sandpaper he uses (I don't) and that's about it. So no, the big person I have to thank is my incredibly tolerant and loving wife. (I say "big" in the figurative sense only, honey! :). )

That is to say you infer quite heavily that if a hat isn't built the way you do it it isn't automatically wrong. To have that attitude is both arrogant and silly; if it IS actually one that you posess, and aren't just ignoring the extreme helpfulness of the guide in order to turn people off building their own hats if they want to.

That's all I really have to say. I don't desire a big argument or anything. I just want to help people make Indiana Jones hats, as well las a bunch of other things we havent got to yet. No strings attached.

bendingoak
01-10-2013, 11:58 PM
I never attacked you. I defended a friend. I never commented on your block or how you cane to have it.

You can assume all you want but my Raiders block is my own design.

I want to make sure it's clear that hat making isn't as easy as you make it. I can see by a hat that I seen of your in person, in photos and by your tutorial that you don't know how to make a well made hat. Great with photo shop, great with photoshop your block is just fine. That's not the problem. It's your skill as a hat maker. I would not talk about it out of respect but you being the asshole that you are attacking me showing disrespect to other hat makers and the craft of hat making.

That's the thing that bothers me more about you then anything. Wham bang I made a few hats and now I better then anyone else. This shit isn't so hard anyone can do it attitude. Yes anyone can do it but it takes exsperience, time, effort and a true respect of the craft.

You piss all over it. So, why in the world would I care about you.

I never said anything about your hats but you at every chance you can you attack me and my hats. You asked for it now you get it.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no problem with someone wanting to make their own hats but I would think that people would want to know the entire truth. That you can't just do it after your first hat or your first few, or your first dozen, or even your first hundred. To do it well just like anything. Takes time, effort and money.

It's called informing people of what it takes. It's a insult to the craftm to me, to a real hat maker and to the people of this or any forum not to inform them of everything.

neutronbomb
01-11-2013, 02:06 AM
One of the things unique about our site is the ability to not have censorship going on and favoritism and protection and shutting things down, although for some of our membership what is perceived as two well respected members having a public feud feels awkward.

I do want to commend Bending Oak for participating in discussions and debates at F&G and voicing his opinions and the knowledge that he feels he can share. Many vendors who earn their living with their craft feel they can't do this. Here their participation is always welcome.

This discussion brings up an important point though. It's also tough for the guy who wants to try some of this out for himself. No plans to make dozens and dozens, but wants a go at doing it for himself. How can he when the craftsman has to protect his trade secrets. I can't speak to the ins and outs and technical details on millinery, because I can barely spell grosgrain correctly. But, I do know that many of us really appreciate someone who makes the effort to share everything they know on a tutorial for the rest of us. Of course, as there are questions and best practices shared the info will get refined which is good for the hobbyist side of things.

Gunslinger
01-11-2013, 02:28 AM
My apologies, its never been clear whether you fully crafted your own block. By design do you mean actually shape it in 3D?

You can say "bad hat! Bad hat!" like Chicken Little all you want - I can take it - and beg to differ whe you make a judgement about my stuff. All I know is that I saw that things were not acceptable to me. I thought I could do better then the existing offerings of hats that were and are $300 and up. For that level of investment, I could learn about how to build a hat, have some fun figuring things out, and end up with the skills to make myself or my friends a new one for as long as I want to. So as much as you want to piss over people's hobbies, I think the results are pretty cool. (I notice you cant bring youself to say anything "looks better" without bringing up Photoshop - again all sorts of inferences could be taken from that. Doesn't bother me but I think it's kinda funny and take it as a vast compliment actually.)

And not speaking about your hats in particular - as i have said before, i think your hats are very well made and all credit to your dedication to the craft - seriously- but by the same token, I have had the duty of repairing a supposedly great Indy hat - a "properly built" one, made of beaver, that looked like a traffic cone. So sure, some trades can take a long time to become TRULY great at. Hatting could well be one of them. But just as often, I have an event or 2 that makes me think "huh? Why is person or persons X on a pedestal?" it just doesn't seem like it could possibly be that hard. I could do better than THAT. And that's what got me started. Isn't that the sort of thing that gets anyone started rather than just buying something off the shelf? So sure, maybe im missing something, or just have too much of a dose of a "can-do" attitude, but I find that you can get very close to the level of quality - maybe even better than whats out there - just by taking your time and just being passionate about what you're doing.

But I guess that's the difference between a hobby and a business. You're looking out for your trade/craft/business but I'm coming from a different place. What's wrong with inspiring people to have a go? I don't think any amount of enthusiasm from me is going to convince anyone who really just wants to BUY a hat to do otherwise. But for those that want to have a go, It's the investment of $50 for some timber, a few bits and pieces of hobby stuff, and a few old hats. Hardly talking cattle stations in terms of risk here. Versus paying far more than that for a one-off hat, I am just so crazy-happy about the route I took.

Sorry NB - cross post! :)

bendingoak
01-11-2013, 03:42 AM
I was inspired by hat makers because of love of hats and respect for those who came before me. I inspire to I prove every day. I can respect trying to do better but you shit on others on your way there. You think because you took some material and it resembles a hat that you have mastered it. I have me a lot of hat. More then most custome hatters that have been doing it twice as long as me.

To answer your question I designed my block working with a wood worker. I flew him into Oregon to work with him.

Yes, it's a living for me but don't think for a moment I don't love my craft. I would love to share a step by step but I do this for a living and I'm not in the market to teach anyone. Nor do I think I should teach anyone. I still feel I need a lot to learn.

I have seen one of your hats in person. You have a lot to learn on making a hat. Not my way but correctly. I never say anything about it because of respect. Are you listening?????? If you would have asked me I would have happily helped you but you still insist that you have learn the art of hat making in a short time and are better then every who has made a hat, that's it very easy and engine can do. Yes it is currying cancer but it isn't like pumping gas either. It's a skill, one that I have put a lot of time to learn and perfect but still feel I have a lot of learning to do.


Kurt I wish you would show just a little humility.

- - - Updated - - -

NB, thankyou for your post.

Gunslinger
01-11-2013, 10:45 PM
I think you take some of my comments and extrapolate my meaning a little, and i REALLY dont think you get me. I dont know if part of it is a typed thing, or if I only blurt out my most pointed comments or somehthg. I'm not saying I am a better hat maker than you or anyone else. That's not for me to judge. All I've ever conveyed is that the people you often put on such a pedestal aren't infallible. It doesn't mean I don't respect their work, and I have said this in the past. I ~couldn't~ make hundreds of hats. I'm not geared that way. As a general practice, I see something that bothers me, fix it, then when I'm happy, give the repetitive stuff for others to do - people that can do things better than I can. It's not to say I don't value craftspeople or specialists - quite the opposite. I'm just not one of them when it comes to the long run. But yeah, in the short run, yeah, it seems that on a couple of points, I outdid people that were doing it longer than me, and don't think it's a bad thing to be proud of. I also don't see it as shitting on people. I have a right to an opinion, and on a weekly basis I see people in trades falling over because they are to o insular in their practices or who / what they respect, or ~how they position themselves and articulate things versus (perceived) competitors~. In recent years, in a tight market with open channels of information it has meant that those people go bust. they're actually the most likely to go bust, actually.

So yeah, I don't get this whole idea that showing humility = not pointing out flaws, etc. It's not only being honest, its actually good for business (including yours) because its like free market research. It's not like my comments about shortcomings aren't constructive. Eg I think your Raiders hats look too big on people, and you can act on that - or not. Other people may think it, not say it, and not buy your hats. That costs you money. So I don't mind criticism, as long as its constructive. I welcome it. And believe it or not, I only DON'T criticize a commercial enterprise if I see some shortcoming if I don't want to give them something of value.

I don't know what hat you keep mentioning, or how it was badly made. As I mentioned, I'm at a loss as to what in the. Instructions above are not how hats are made, as i am simply following the basic way to block a hat based on numerous sources. There ARE some "Kurt tweaks" to some methods that have morphed over time or have been necessary due to equipment constraints - eg when I do / don't use a flange; and I will note that stuff in the guide when I get time. As I had noted there were bits to be inserted, as I was really just cranking out live drafts to get this stuff online before my time becomes more limited again. But wetting / steaming a hat body and pulling it over a block before tying it off? It's simple, and as old as the hills.

bendingoak
01-12-2013, 12:56 AM
I would like to believe you that you are being miss understood by the written word. Let me take it another way. Do you care how other perceive you???? To go out and dump on other peoples work comes across as disrespect. I for one compliment others work when they do well. When I see work that I don't like I say nothing. It's called a little thing like "respect" or "class" or "tact." I even extended that to you before you shit all over me.

I think you miss understand respect for Steve for putting him on a pedestal. Can Steve make a mistake , hell yes and he would be the first to say it. Did you even read my last post????

Steve shouldn't be on a pedestal but he should be show a lot of FUCKING RESPECT!


I could point out to you several things that you are not very skilled in and what I'm talking about. most likely from the lack of not making a lot of hats. Even now I extend professional respect to you. DO YOU GET IT NOW?????????????????????? Im trying my best to extend my hand to you but you won't show the least bit of humility?????


I'll give you an example. Rather then dumping on someone else to make or show off your work. You can just talk about your work. Show a little class and humility.

Its on you.

Gunslinger
01-12-2013, 02:13 AM
Sorry man, you've completely lost me there. I think we must be really far apart in ways i don't get. I WAS just giving you respect, and explaining exactly WHAT my position is on speaking my mind and WHY. When i show work, I don't see what's wrong with citing its "reason for being". I call it an attempt at being transparent. I also gave you business advice that I normally charge hundreds of dollars for.

It's a forum. A place for people to discuss things from their own viewpoints. So yes, I don't get why all things need to be purely positive. Its profoundly unrealistic and just the height of some sort of... I dont know... Weirdness... to expect that of a medium like the internet where the whole point of it is interaction - To expect that to the degree the force of your last post puts out there. I thought i was being positive and extending an olive branch there.

But in all seriousness you need to calm down and get your hand off it. You DONT just say nothing. You have undercut, acted passive aggressively, or overtly aggressively, slaged off long term vendors such as Herbert Johnson (to whom you kind of REALLY owe your living when you think about it!) and so on. You presumably do this because you believe your hats are better than theirs thus have the right to an opinion? whatever your reasoning, you think its ok for you to say that stuff. And thats fine. Again, it's a forum. You have that right. But just dont be a hypocrite about who is allowed to have an opinion about others. Dont expect for there not to be a counter-reaction from the people who have a right to defend themselves, their own way of doing things, or their own opinions. The annoying thing which I DID leave out of my previous post is where's I give a person I'm being critical of my reasoning so that they can improve or make positive adjustments, you DO just take a giant dump, but leave nothing - you basically just say "your hats are shit", or make comments like the one that start this thread, or snide comments about Photoshop that don't advance anything other than promoting your authority. I do remember when I first revealed my Raiders block for instance, with all the overlays, etc. and your only comment was to criticize my wording of the thread, which I think I called "THE Raiders block revealed" or something. No, you didnt keep your trap shut. You sure as hell didn't show "respect".

So please, just chill. Accept other people are allowed to have opinions. They are entitled to live their lives in ways that may conflict with your view of the world. Sometimes their viewpoints may even have some value &/or merit.

bendingoak
01-12-2013, 05:35 AM
If someone is willing to pay you thousands of dollars for your advise, why in th hell are you here running your mouth so much. I wouldn't give you a dime for your advise.

I think you got things backwards. Look who's putting someone on a pedestal. Hubert Johnson???? Practice what you preach.

You call yourself a hat maker but jump all over other hat makers. Don't you see how that is a conflict of interest. You can't be a fan and a hat maker and expect to be treated as both.

It's one thing when fans of a forum talk about products and give their opinion. It's another when it's someone producing that same product. Show some class.

Talking about a scene hat you see on film that isn't made by the original maker anymore that everyone like yourself is replicating isn't the same thing. Be clear about what I state and don't twist it. It's my opinion that the hat was of the highest of quality and it shows up on film. I'm sorry but I'm not doing your homework for you or anyone else.


About your thread, try reading it. You ego was all over the place shittying on everyone in one big swipe. You title is misleading. Most of them all are.

If that's how you extend you hand to someone. With a pile of shit being thrown at me.

I tell you what I hade enough. I tried to extend my hand several times. Stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

Gunslinger
01-12-2013, 05:47 AM
Believe it or not, and yes I know you wouldn't.

"You can't be a fan and a hat maker and expect to be treated as both." Agreed.

Re pulling out, also agreed.

bendingoak
01-12-2013, 05:57 AM
Believe what????

If you can't be both fan and hat maker why do you behave as both?

Gunslinger
01-12-2013, 09:17 AM
Sorry, I was replying to multiple points and should have been clearer. Breaking it down:


If someone is willing to pay you thousands of dollars for your advise, why in th hell are you here running your mouth so much. I wouldn't give you a dime for your advise.
Believe it or not (they do), and yes I know you wouldn't.


I think you got things backwards. Look who's putting someone on a pedestal. Hubert Johnson???? Practice what you preach.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it feels a bit pointless to continue a fairly negative conversation.


You can't be a fan and a hat maker and expect to be treated as both.
Agreed. (As in I'm not trying to be both. I'm not a hatter. I'm a guy that has messed with replicating a block and made one very specific kind of hat and sharing what he knows. I'm not trying to be both. You honestly do have a harder line to have to walk, as Neutronbomb notes.)


It's one thing when fans of a forum talk about products and give their opinion. It's another when it's someone producing that same product. Show some class.
Yes, again, agreed. And I have said this - to YOU before; in the context of you putting down HJ and it coming off bad because you make hats. That was the same conversation I was referring to above.





Talking about a scene hat you see on film that isn't made by the original maker anymore that everyone like yourself is replicating isn't the same thing. Be clear about what I state and don't twist it. It's my opinion that the hat was of the highest of quality and it shows up on film. I'm sorry but I'm not doing your homework for you or anyone else.
This is actually the exact opposite of what I recall you saying about the Raiders HJ. A very recent example from the Hat Stretcher thread:

Heres another thought for you. The felt used for the Raiders hat. Most people think it was a great rabbit felt. I personally, looking at Screne grabs can clearly see that it wasn't. It wasn't special, it was ok at best. My felt rabbit and beaver are a much better quality. The hat was made poorly. The Raiders hat wasnt a great hat in the sense of being a well made hat.



About your thread, try reading it. You ego was all over the place shittying on everyone in one big swipe. You title is misleading. Most of them all are. If that's how you extend you hand to someone. With a pile of shit being thrown at me.
You're entitled to your opinion on both these counts. I disagree on both. Having said that, if by me commenting or articulating myself in a certain way has ever TAKEN AWAY something from your pride in your work or something equalling that, I do sincerely apologise. That was never my intent.


I tell you what I hade enough. I tried to extend my hand several times. Stay out of my way and I'll do the same.
Re pulling out, yes, same, also agreed. We seem to have a crazy-perfect personality clash and it isn't really constructive. In all seriousness, all the best.

crismans
01-12-2013, 02:37 PM
And here I like the both of you! :) Indy_surrender

bendingoak
01-12-2013, 03:24 PM
That should have read WASN'T of the highest quality. That was a typo.

Crisman, I like you buddy.

Gunslinger
01-12-2013, 09:14 PM
I like him too. :)

bendingoak
01-12-2013, 10:44 PM
We do have Sonething we agree on. Crisman is a good fellow. Maybe that's a start for both of us to make peace with each other.

Gunslinger
01-12-2013, 10:46 PM
Alternatively we could start or own reality series or sitcom. :)

crismans
01-13-2013, 04:19 AM
Everybody really should like me because I'm nine kinds of awesome! Glad to provide a bridge! ban-llama

Gunslinger
01-13-2013, 05:19 AM
That is true, Crisman. Of course, the bad news is its only a matter of time before someone high up realises this and sends you to Korea, the middle east, the horn of Africa etc to do your thing there.

Indy_cheers

neutronbomb
01-13-2013, 02:40 PM
hmmph......I for one have never liked Crisman. I've found his overly aggressive lip :swear: way too outrageos :o


:DIndy_cheers

crismans
01-13-2013, 05:01 PM
But your judgement has proven to be faulty time and time again.

RCSignals
01-13-2013, 10:24 PM
You two need to go out for a Beer

bendingoak
01-14-2013, 12:27 AM
You two need to go out for a Beer


You might be right or maybe a blue shed moment.

Gunslinger
01-14-2013, 12:46 AM
Agreed on the beer. I don't know what "blue shed" is.

neutronbomb
01-14-2013, 01:27 AM
American Midwestern lingo farmer talk. Or maybe Southern. Gathering under the blue shed, drinking moonshine, playing the banjo and kettle drums, and all differences......what differences?? I luv you man..no I love u most. A watershed moment :)

bendingoak
01-14-2013, 02:43 AM
Nope, it's what the local fire department calls for when two fire fighters have a problem. They say take it behind the shed. It's not very PC but heck I never was. I rather have the beer.


I'll tell you what. You ever in my part of the world I'll buy you a couple rounds. How's that for extending a hand to you?

Gunslinger
01-14-2013, 04:27 AM
That's great John, and appreciate you offering it. My sentiments exactly. Could well be we are actually quite similar. And I will absolutely swing by if and when I visit your corner of the US. I've always loved the look of the Northwest, so it's actually quite possible.

Cheers, Kurt.

bendingoak
01-14-2013, 05:07 AM
Maybe. I talked with someone today about this thread. My friend came to the conclusion a lot of this could be because of the written word being taken the wrong way. So I will extend a even further hand. If you do come to the northwest, I'll give you a place to stay.

Gunslinger
01-14-2013, 05:55 AM
You're bringing a tear to my eye, mate. And the same to you. You ever come to Australia, I'll take a few days out to show you around my neck of the woods.

Ram Man
01-14-2013, 04:05 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to And the Acadamy's Nominations for Best Dramatic Role in a Forum Film......

It won't be funny if I have to explain it:doh:

Seriously though its great to see you guys end this on a positive note.:)

bendingoak
01-14-2013, 04:27 PM
You're bringing a tear to my eye, mate. And the same to you. You ever come to Australia, I'll take a few days out to show you around my neck of the woods.

great, we wen't from wanting to kill each other to crying, we must be a couple of drunks. :D
I would love to take you up on your offer but the chances are very low. I'm not big on flying and I think that flight would kill my neck and back. Thanks for the offer.

Indiego Jones
01-14-2013, 04:30 PM
I consider both of you my friends. And I fail to put into words the satisfaction and happyness I feel now for you, guys.

I have participated in other forums for over 5 years, and NEVER read so great demonstration of respect, understanding and agreement between two people in conflict.
And, achieving this without relegate their own convictions and ideas, instead of trying to impose his thoughts to the other person.

I also extend my congratulations to the administrators, who were able to carry out a complex situation without prejudice of the forum or other members.
I'M SO HAPPY TO BE PART OF FORTUNE AND GLORY!

Regards.-

djd
01-15-2013, 10:06 AM
This is good to see. Personally I think you're both a couple of morons but there you go..... :angel:

bendingoak
01-15-2013, 02:47 PM
DJD, you could be right.

neutronbomb
01-16-2013, 02:35 AM
Yeah. It's a good thread. Diego's comment I think says it very well. Maybe a name change to the thread and getting rid of some of the last posts will help it out. It's your thread Gunslinger so let me know and I'll do the rest. Maybe I could combine it with the part of the ribbon thread that I'm going to split out so it's all in one place?

Gunslinger
01-16-2013, 05:28 AM
Could I suggest that we try for max transparency of what ends up publicly archived with least amount of lingering "ick factor". Agreed with the title. PM sent.

admin
01-18-2013, 06:18 PM
And we're happy to have you as a part of Fortune and Glory Diego :toast: Others have also expressed similar sentiments recently and the positive feedback is really appreciated. Everyone's participation is very valuable and important to the site so a big thank you to all. We're building a great little community here and it's great to see the vision coming together and goals getting accomplished that we've had from the beginning.

I think a big part of what allowed this to resolve itself is entirely due to the situation and to bending oak and gunslinger themselves. They are well established contributing members of the site and allowing them to sort out what was triggered from a major discussion, debate, and difference of opinion from the 'Raiders Ribbon Controversy' thread http://www.fortuneandglory.org/forums/threads/2023-Raiders-Ribbon-Controversy was overall the best way to go on this. The expectation was that they're big boys and fully capable of working this out. Sometimes really good information can also come out of it. Also I guess, moderating on F&G isn't a one size fits all. Only as needed and necessary as the situation dictates.



....I also extend my congratulations to the administrators, who were able to carry out a complex situation without prejudice of the forum or other members.
I'M SO HAPPY TO BE PART OF FORTUNE AND GLORY!

Regards.-

bendingoak
02-17-2013, 05:01 AM
Admin edit: The full post can be seen here: full post (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2049-Real-Screen-Accurate-Last-Crusade-Fedora-with-accurate-ribbon-vinatge-style?p=20572&viewfull=1#post20572)

........The Indy ribbon was 100% rayon, had less content then most blends of the time about 20% less then blends. The most common used rayon/cotton 50/50. and the pattern is just one way to tell.

.......again. The Indy ribbon wasn't a blend.

bendingoak
02-07-2014, 05:09 AM
You do realize that you are using screen grabs of distressed hats. That the ribbon is being altered by fillers earth and a mixture of water and bleach.

Gunslinger
02-07-2014, 08:47 AM
The AB ribbon clearly looks wrong - way too black. The distressing argument doesn't add up to me. That screen hat doesn't look bleached in any way. If so, where are the darker bits left unbleached? Or was it soaked in bleach so as to be so consistent? Why not just use a lighter ribbon? Makes no sense. Occam's razor - it was a lighter ribbon that looks darker on film much of the time, and people (including myself) copied how it looks ~on film~ - not the reality.

bendingoak
02-08-2014, 05:21 AM
The ribbon that is used on AB by Steve, Marc and my hats are used by the same company that made the ribbon for the original hat. I know what that ribbon is. Im not showing any paper work as not to set off a becon to where it is. Even if I did someone would come up with some story that I photo shop the image, like I was Patterson or something. You can either choose to believe Marc and myself or not. Trying to take screen grabs to prove something has its flaws. You have photos from screen grabs in different points of distress, different filters ,etc, etc. I also find it funny that you are using a photo of a old hat that was suggested that it was screen used but no proof shown, just the owners word. My word isn't good enough but this guy is???????? Really? That's logic .


Everyone reading this. Pay attention that most of the peopl shooting this ribbon down on this forum and others are always started by other hat makers. Thats either if its for a Indy hat maker or a vintage style hat maker who claims to use vintage ribbon.

Gunslinger
02-08-2014, 06:44 AM
I don't think anyone is after your suppliers John, or expects you to pony up an invoice as proof. What would it be proof of, anyway? That you bought ribbon?

IIRC, Desi's hat came with a very strong provenance chain. It's highly likely that it's the real deal. Having said that, it's just a piece of the puzzle. The ribbon would have faded a little over the years.

On logic, it's not really a logical argument to say anyone other than you, Steve or Marc can't be correct, though is it? Of ~course~ it will only ever be "other" people shooting it down. They have nothing to lose if your ribbon being "the" ribbon is debunked, and you three guys do. So that's not really a helpful binary to throw out there.

I'm all for people exploring this using logic, not faith. Let's leave faith at the door. What was the line? "Facts, not truth"?

bendingoak
02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
I'm not asking you to believe me in the least but yes there are people like your self that go out of there way to debunk what we know to be true.


Talk about taking faith. You take on faith and ask me to take on in faith that the Desi hat is in fact a screen used hat from Raiders but with no fact showen.


Again, everyone realize that other hat makers are trying to debunk.

neutronbomb
02-08-2014, 02:47 PM
I don't like the use of "what we know to be true". Look at how much total lies go on at COW. Look at the years of Patterson, fully supported by COW, shutting down all exploration and discussions related to the history of gear as soon as it "crossed the line" of possibly questioning the incredible, fantastical tales of pure fictional bullshit he wove. All the mods and admins used those words and then the newly, wide-eyed converts start chanting it too. "What we know to be true is.......". And then we find out....it was complete fabrication.

What I do know is that I am a fan of all the vendors that make a great product and that includes my AB Deluxe from Marc Kitter. I also know that for some reason I can never find any information other than "What we know to be true is....." on the Raiders ribbon. I for one appreciate the compare that Mac posted. I liked it quite a bit in fact and it motivated me to run around and take a bunch more freakin' photos. And who the hell knows, maybe by the time it's run it's course the thread will actually support the AB ribbon as being THE raiders ribbon. And yes, John, I think we all understand that you are limited on what you can share for trade secret purposes, but it is also unreasonable for you to expect Indy fans to not explore subjects that interest them.

By freely exploring these types of subjects, we get to see much more and learn much, much more about the hobby than simply having to chant the rote line of "what we know to be true". Actually nothing wrong with that if that's your deal, except that there's always going to be some poor guy who's going to sit there and think to himself, "No. Mmmm...NO. I don't actually know that to be true." And then he gets shut out, banned, outcast, punished because he isn't as happy as everyone else to sit there like he's told and wait for his little golden dew drops of fantasy knowledge to be dispersed by Mark Cross and crew. Don't ask questions. Be happy with the little bit we share with you. If you chant it back like a good boy, then maybe you can move up the ladder and receive an extra golden dew drop.

This thread isn't about debunking the AB ribbon and it certainly isn't about believing or not believing you personally or Marc Kitter personally; it is about trying to see for myself using basically about 4 things that I can think of to analyze against each other of which one of them is the assertion that the ribbon AB uses is The ribbon. it is also about the exploration of an interesting subject that is wide-open and free where interesting sights might be seen. I don't sit in anyone's church and gaze at the chosen apostle with a dull, glowing rapturous gaze on my face at whatever story is being told. I...Live.....In......My.....World.

bendingoak
02-08-2014, 04:40 PM
First I'm not Paterson or COW. Like I stated, you can choose to believe me or not, your choice. I do find it funny that the Desi hat is taken on word with no fact. I also don't think you can go by screen grabs to prove or disprove about the ribbon or anything else for that matter.

There are a few hat makers that have tried to debunk the ribbon (and it's not just here). This is where all this has started from

neutronbomb
02-08-2014, 06:22 PM
I can appreciate your points John. Just to let you know, I would never mistake you for Patterson :crazy: or COW :storm:

I freakin' spent like the last hour on this post and then it got lost. Anyway, I do think screen grabs can be useful and I had a lot to say about why especially when used within the context of their limitations and with other non-film media. Also, about how we can't have our cake and eat it too. Like wanting to question and examine what others have said, but not like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Like how it would be hypocritical of me to not allow people to want to discuss or question or debate whether Tony Nowak had a jacket to copy. And how it would unreasonable for you to expect Indy Fans to not want to try and research the ribbon on their own and compare what they find against the AB ribbon.

But anyway all that brilliancy is now lost. The one time I don't do a copy of all the text before hitting the post/save button. As always, anything you can and are willing to share is much appreciated.

Cheers! Indy_cheers

bendingoak
02-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Well, just the idea of remotely be anywhere near mentioned with that guy is just aaaarrrggh

Indiego Jones
02-08-2014, 06:37 PM
Again, everyone realize that other hat makers are trying to debunk.
Not one hatmaker has posted on this thread (yet :p)
Gunslinger has "retired" from hat making.

Who do you refer to?

Gunslinger
02-08-2014, 06:54 PM
So, to start at the beginning, and to siphon out the COW bullshit that has muddied the waters, what's the story meant to be behind the Raiders ribbon? That the stock ribbon was replaced by Swayles with a pure rayon(?) one that is exactly as we see here and on AB / Penman hats. It's literally one and the same - not an approximation.

bendingoak
02-09-2014, 02:24 AM
Not one hatmaker has posted on this thread (yet :p)
Gunslinger has "retired" from hat making.

Who do you refer to?

This has been going on for some time and this is not the only forum.

Indiego Jones
02-09-2014, 06:03 PM
This has been going on for some time and this is not the only forum.

Oh...ok. Thanks for reply.

Now, on the ribbon thing.
John, you know I believe on your word -and Steve's-, and I respect the effort and contributions made by you guys to this hobby.
And that I found your ribbon an amazing and major find to Indyfans. I have an AB CS with the ribbon, and I just love it.


I'm 99% conviced that in fact is "the ribbon" seen on the hat wear it by Harrison Ford on RAIDERS (not in ToD, not in LC - different ribbon IMO).

The 1% doubt comes from the fact that I've never seen 1 single vintage HJ hat with that ribbon. Not in person, or in pictures.

I mean: if the same factory, produced ALL this years the same ribbon, how come is possible not even one of the vintage HJ Poets have that exact same ribbon?
Not only the Raiders era ones, and either bought from Swaine Adeney or Herbert Johnson, and collected by fellow forum members or Indyfans all over the world.

Not even the ones bought directly from Mr Swales.
Those ones should have "the ribbon", because like it was implied on the other board, is VERY probable that Swaine Adeney kept buying the very same ribbon from the very same supplier for all this years.

That's the only little inconsistency I find about this ribbon.

I'm not an expert on pictures analisys, but through all this years I've studied many vintage HJ hats, and ribbons, and took many pictures.
I'll try to put something together to provide on this thread. Today is impossible, maybe tomorrow.

Kind regards.-

bendingoak
02-09-2014, 08:15 PM
Again, I can only tell you that you really can't use photos or screen to prove or disprove any of this.

bendingoak
02-09-2014, 09:23 PM
Forgot one thing. There is a difference between in house that RS used and the production hats he sold. I have found HJ that have had this ribbon and the two lab results to say its the same.

Gunslinger
02-10-2014, 05:41 AM
I'm sure you disagree with me John but I think it's too dark.

bendingoak
02-10-2014, 04:14 PM
Did you see the latest pics I posted and yes I disagree with you because I know what the facts are.

Gunslinger
02-10-2014, 07:36 PM
Your last photo's colour grading looks like an Instagram type filter that digitally recreates a faded print where it washes out all the blacks. There's nothing in Raiders with a colour curve like that. So it's not worth anything to the debate.

There's actually a simple experiment I can do and share here if you are happy to send me sample of "the" ribbon. I give you my word I won't use it or send it to anyone - just take photos. Mark it up with a sharpie at the ends and back so you'll know I can't snip any off before sending it back.

bendingoak
02-10-2014, 11:51 PM
Kurt, Let me get this straight you want me to send you a sample and only go by your word alone that it will be used just for the purpose of this thread? but won't take my word on what I know about this ribbon? see my point?

- - - Updated - - -

Mac, Thats kinda what I have been saying all along. you can't really use screen grabs to photos, to prove or debunk.



and for the record, I'm not saying the Desi hat isn't a screen used hat. I was using it as a example of people taking others word without proof.

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 12:21 AM
Yep, that's right; in the same way that in business, I'm not offended when a new prospective client hits me with a bunch of tough questions to find out if there's any depth beneath the claims of what I can do for them. And I welcome those questions because they give me the chance to answer them correctly (which I can), prove my worth to the person, and get the job.

I think where you're misunderstanding me in general (maybe); is that the burden of trust is on you. I'm not the one making a claim. You are, just like the way I make claims when I meet with someone in business for the first time. I don't get offended by their questions - I understand why they need to know. Yet in this case, not only will you not provide any evidence that it's a claim based in fact (which I understand you not wanting to divulge your supplier), you systematically dismiss literally any other form of the public being able to assess whether the claim is correct. I have little doubt you believe that what you have is the real deal - seriously, but being that's the case I don't get why you should be afraid that it will "stand up", so let's have a discussion / examination here.

Making the ribbon available to compare, apples vs. apples, will help us advance facts; its as simple as that. That way there is minimal slippage into the realm of screen grabs vs. whatever without a grounding in reality.

May I also ask, straight up: If you had to bet on it, do you think the Screen Used hat is genuine? Yes or no.

Cheers.

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 12:22 AM
Ok, looks like we posted at the same time, John. So I take it that you're happy to say that Desi's hat is the Raiders hat as claimed.

bendingoak
02-11-2014, 01:14 AM
I never have a problem with a customer asking me any question. I have a problem with the same people who will take the Desi hat on the owners word but don't take my word when it comes to this ribbon. If you can't take my word, then you shouldn't take anyone else's.

I have a problem with other hat makers doing this not customers.


I can't say with 100% that it is but it looks to be and I have no reason to say the person is lying about it. I have asks to see the inside of the hat and was turned down. I don't understand why that would be a issue to show the inside of the hat but I am not the owner of that hat and Im not sitting on his side of the table. There could be a very good reason why he doesn't want to show it. That hat doesn't do anyone any good use as a stand point of replicating that hat when it comes to block shape. You would need a brand new one for that. Ribbon it can't help unless you could take a piece of it to a lab? I wouldn't do that to that hat. Now construction could be helpful but I don't think it will change much to anyone who has put a lot of effort into replicating a Raiders hat. As a hat maker that makes Indy hats it's not that big of a find. As a Indy fan it's big. I would love to own it myself.


The point I was making about the Desi hat is like other great finds in this hobby. I'm shocked that my word is questioned but the Desi hat and others aren't???. I don't mind the you or anyone else questioning me. I just think that approach should go across board to every person.

Which in its own is a shame because there will always be doubt because of one dishonest person. Really has ruined this hobby. You need a proof but if you show proof someone will always say " is that really proof or did you photo shop that document.

It really is a shame.

- - - Updated - - -


Yep, that's right; in the same way that in business, I'm not offended when a new prospective client hits me with a bunch of tough questions to find out if there's any depth beneath the claims of what I can do for them. And I welcome those questions because they give me the chance to answer them correctly (which I can), prove my worth to the person, and get the job.

I think where you're misunderstanding me in general (maybe); is that the burden of trust is on you. I'm not the one making a claim. You are, just like the way I make claims when I meet with someone in business for the first time. I don't get offended by their questions - I understand why they need to know. Yet in this case, not only will you not provide any evidence that it's a claim based in fact (which I understand you not wanting to divulge your supplier), you systematically dismiss literally any other form of the public being able to assess whether the claim is correct. I have little doubt you believe that what you have is the real deal - seriously, but being that's the case I don't get why you should be afraid that it will "stand up", so let's have a discussion / examination here.

Making the ribbon available to compare, apples vs. apples, will help us advance facts; its as simple as that. That way there is minimal slippage into the realm of screen grabs vs. whatever without a grounding in reality.

May I also ask, straight up: If you had to bet on it, do you think the Screen Used hat is genuine? Yes or no.

Cheers.


Again Kurt, you want me to take your word but you don't want to take mine.

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 04:25 AM
Actually I ~do~ take your word John - as I said I give it to you that I do think you believe that you have the read-deal ribbon; but you are only the last link in the provenance chain aren't you? This is why I asked you to clarify what you know of the very start of the story. What allegedly happened at the start? How did Steve (IIRC) come to find the ribbon at the time of CS? etc. etc. I know you have mentioned lab reports etc. "proving" something, but I don't understand the significance. Of what the connections are.

So yes, to date, I recall reading about the provenance chain of Desi's hat (Ford gave to stunt guy, some old lady(?!), etc), then Desi checking it out, and it made sense for me to judge it as likely the real deal; and then since then, I have seen things in the hat that have only been discovered in HD, that any possible fake-screen-hat-maker couldn't have known to replicate. So for me, as much as one can't be 100% certain, I would lay down cash on it being authentic.

As for your AB-sourced ribbon, I don't have enough pieces of the puzzle to make my own judgement. I'm working on it with the tools available to me.

It doesn't worry me if you don't want to send me a ribbon. I have numerous options for getting one. I just thought you may be up for cutting out the middle man so thought I'd ask the obvious question.

Indiego Jones
02-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Actually I ~do~ take your word John - as I said I give it to you that I do think you believe that you have the read-deal ribbon; but you are only the last link in the provenance chain aren't you? This is why I asked you to clarify what you know of the very start of the story. What allegedly happened at the start? How did Steve (IIRC) come to find the ribbon at the time of CS? etc. etc. I know you have mentioned lab reports etc. "proving" something, but I don't understand the significance. Of what the connections are.

I'd like to provide this info.
This are posts from a different board, COW. (I'm sorry, can I say COW here?...I don't know for sure...it's Ok? no offense? really? read this in Woody Allen's voice... :D )

Author, date of posting, post text and link.

Notes:
Fedora = Steve Delk from Adventurebilt (USA)
jasonalun = COW member, hat customer
Marc = Marc Kitter from Adventurebilt (GERMANY)
DR Ulloa = COW member, hat customer



http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550023#p550023
Guys, this ribbon is made by only one place in the entire world. Marc just got very lucky, and almost found it by accident, by a passing remark with some hatter in Europe. I don't even know who makes it! I told Marc, I would just order mine from him and no need to tell me as he knows I have a very BIG MOUTH. :lol: I have never been hesitant about telling everyone my sources, and he knows it! :lol: This was mainly due to the trouble I had early on in sourcing good materials. There are a few sources for many things needed in hatmaking, the trouble is, no hatter would share with me. That's just the way the business is. And it made me mad, and I have got even with those guys by telling most whom I use.(much to the chagrin of my feltmaker who does not want indivduals ordering bodies who are not real hatters) So, no one would have ever known where I get my felt from, if not for me sharing it. The old hatters just won't share. Of course the reason was for competition reasons, and over time, I have moved a little in that direction as well, since I now sell hats. :lol: But, I have shared with a couple of our new hatters the needed info, and so has Marc. (why can't I ever write short posts???? I reckon it is the big mouth syndrome)

Back to the ribbon. Before finding the source, Marc and I looked into having our ribbon custom made here in the States by the only manufacturer left. We could have got an exact color match to the super dark brown we currently use, but heck, it would be a special run, and the minimum was 7500 yards, for them to do it. Or around 9000 bucks at the time. Neither of us could afford to lay out that kind of money just for ribbon at that time. The other route for new hatters is to buy a Sudan brown that is available, and then have it custom dyed by someone who specializes in dyeing. I have never looked for someone to do this, but I know from another hatter, someone does.

The Raiders ribbon is indeed unique today in the color, although many years ago, it was available from any ribbon maker. With the demise of hats, the colors have been culled down to "what sells" for economic reasons.

Generally ribbon runs less than a buck a yard, but this stuff we use cost as much as some rabbit bodies that other hatters use. And, in the quality department, it sure ain't worth what we pay. I can buy a rabbit body from another country that was 5 bucks, the last time I checked, but, you really do get what you pay for in bodies. And I would never use one of these in an AB hat. In hat bodies, you really do get what you pay for. But not so for ribbon. I love the color of our ribbon, but I detest the quality. If I had my choice, I would be using pure rayon, as that is the highest quality ribbon one can buy, and that sort of ribbon is also a special run as well. But since our ribbon comes from the original Raider ribbon manufacturer, I HAVE to use it. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Now, don't get me wrong, I am so grateful Marc found the source(no web site) because I was running out of the vintage dark brown I once used.

No matter how good an Indy fedora a hatter an make, if you don't have the right ribbon, the hat will always be inaccurate. I reckon it is our ace in the hole, for now. :lol: Fedora
Fedora



http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550104#p550104
I'm just curious, Fedora, not questioning anyone's word or anything, but how do you guys KNOW that your ribbon is THE Raiders ribbon? It seems to me, reading all that I have on the forum archives, that no one to this day can say with 100% certainty exactly where the hat's felt came from, where the block that was used resides, or even exactly how it was made (slightly tweaked factory hat, or bespoke hat)! So how is it that we know exactly who made the ribbon? Again, not questioning anyone's veracity, just puzzled how that one thing could be known when just about everything else about the hat seems still shrouded in so much mystery...



http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550171#p550171

Lemme answer this one.

When the manufacturer send a sample to me, he didn't know which width I was looking for. All he had hear from another supplier, is that I was DESPERATELY trying to source some super dark brown ribbon. So he send some 25mm ribbon to me with a note that he had heard about my search and if this would please me. When I opened the envelope with the sample, it looked plain black to me (just as the Raiders ribbon in certain scenes), but when compared directly to black ribbon, one could see that it's dark brown. It kinda changed color with different light conditions - something I had always assumed was due to the various hats used in Raiders, rather then this particular ribbon that does it by itself. So, while my jaw was still on the floor, I called the guy up to ask if they have it in 38mm as well. Answer: yes, how much would you like?! I told him that I'd get back to him, and then I rang up Steve 7:00am to scream into the phone that I had found the maker of the original Raiders ribbon. Now, if you know Steve, you'll know that he's not quite himself, before he had his coffee, but THIS made him awake within a fraqution of a second :lol:

So, we both ordered two rolls and the waiting began. It looked SPOT ON! Both compared to what we saw on screen as well as what we saw on vintage HJs. To us there was no question that this is IT.

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc



http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550374#p550374
Did many companies carry this ribbon? Yes. At the time of Raiders? No, probably not.



http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550459#p550459

I concur on that one. Hats were dead at the time of Raiders, and the numerous old ribbon makers had went belly up, leaving only a few. There is only one left here in the USA, whereas there used to be many more. I don't know how many are left in Europe, but I do know they are few and far between today. I cannot say absolutely that the same company that makes our ribbon is the same one that made it back when Raiders was filmed, but I feel pretty certain of it, given the demise of the ribbon industry way before Raiders was filmed. And given its color. You can't find this color today, except from this very old company that currently makes it. Just not that much demand for this color of brown today, in general. This same company also has a really good selection of colors, unlike the USA ribbon maker, who dropped most of the pastels that used to be popular way back. But to be honest, I do think the ribbon maker who we use had done the same thing Schiff did here in the States. They decreased the quality of their ribbons to cut costs. Vintage Schiff ribbon is much nicer than modern Schiff, and the only pattern Schiff sells today is the 705 pattern, whereas the real hatband grade ribbon was a 7005 pattern. I expect the same to have occurred with the folks we use, although they seemed to have kept a more diverse color selection. So, I am sure the color we use is the exact same, but am not sure the pattern or weave is the same. Not saying that it isn't but that I just don't personally know. Bernie said it looked the same, so all I can do is to take his word for it. But to me, the Raiders ribbon looks thicker, but it is hard to tell for sure unless you held it in hand. If it was thicker, this would fit in with what has happened with the industry in trying to cut costs. Fedora

bendingoak
02-11-2014, 05:15 PM
again, I don't think you guys are reading my post. Steves was speculating on what the ribbon content was because of how it behaved but he was wrong. I had the ribbon tested in two different labs.

Kurt, I wouldn't believe you even if I did wend you a piece of the ribbon. as for you trusting my word, you don't. If you did you wouldn't be asking for this.

again, I don't think you can use screen grabs to prove or disprove.

Indiego Jones
02-11-2014, 05:41 PM
again, I don't think you guys are reading my post. Steves was speculating on what the ribbon content was because of how it behaved but he was wrong. I had the ribbon tested in two different labs.

Kurt, I wouldn't believe you even if I did wend you a piece of the ribbon. as for you trusting my word, you don't. If you did you wouldn't be asking for this.

again, I don't think you can use screen grabs to prove or disprove.
Absolutely. I think Steve didn't knew by that time, if it was or not pure rayon.
I think his complains were about the difficulties he found in using that particular ribbon.

On those historical posts, one of the things I found intriguing, is this:



....Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

As we know, Bernie (Pollack) pursuit for CRYSTAL SKULL, a continuity costume features with LAST CRUSADE, not with Raiders.
So, my deduction is, most probably, Bernie had in hand an LC screenused hat, to compare.
And LC ribbon wasn't the same as in Raiders.

bendingoak
02-11-2014, 06:15 PM
Absolutely. I think Steve didn't knew by that time, if it was or not pure rayon.
I think his complains were about the difficulties he found in using that particular ribbon.

On those historical posts, one of the things I found intriguing, is this:



As we know, Bernie (Pollack) pursuit for CRYSTAL SKULL, a continuity costume features with LAST CRUSADE, not with Raiders.
So, my deduction is, most probably, Bernie had in hand an LC screenused hat, to compare.
And LC ribbon wasn't the same as in Raiders.


The one thing Steve is right about is that this ribbon is a pain to work with.

The thing with bernie is just one aspect of what I know. I didn't just take Steve and Marcs word, I did my own research. Most of it was in the lab to confirm what I already knew but I hated paying the amount that I do for it. Now that some time has gone by, I'm very happy to pay for it.

neutronbomb
02-11-2014, 07:13 PM
Yes.

Also, thank you for providing this info.


I'd like to provide this info.
This are posts from a different board, COW. (I'm sorry, can I say COW here?...I don't know for sure...it's Ok? no offense? really? read this in Woody Allen's voice... :D )

neutronbomb
02-11-2014, 07:35 PM
Your lab confirmed that it is 100% rayon? From Steve's post it sounds like he had worked with Rayon quite a bit and was quite fond of it because it was easy to work with, yet this ribbon wasn't?


The one thing Steve is right about is that this ribbon is a pain to work with.

The thing with bernie is just one aspect of what I know. I didn't just take Steve and Marcs word, I did my own research. Most of it was in the lab to confirm what I already knew but I hated paying the amount that I do for it. Now that some time has gone by, I'm very happy to pay for it.

bendingoak
02-11-2014, 07:51 PM
I'm very found of rayon ribbon as well. thats why I pay top dollar for vintage batches when I come across them but not all ribbon is the same. I have also found out by sending a variety of vintage ribbon to these labs that not all of them were in fact what the seller claim them to be.

I like steve used to think that I could put ribbon to the test by working with it and for the most part you can but not always. there more to how it behaves then just what content was used.


as for the color of the felt, I agree. goes with anything you see on screen. You can replicate what you see on screen but you can't use it proof of what something was used.

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 08:37 PM
Come on guys, the photo above clearly shows a lighter ribbon in Raiders.

This debate is sounding very much like another a long time ago about a jacket. We know how that turned out.

What I got from the "origin" story above is that Marc and Steve eyeballed what they thought the right colour is to match the movie. We don't know what hat Bernie looked at (safely ruling out Desi's) from which of 3 movies, or how "close enough" his criteria was.

Gunslinger
02-11-2014, 09:46 PM
124

Hopefully this can be accepted as evidence of what I'm doing even though it's just a photo. :)

Mac
02-11-2014, 10:08 PM
YOUR'RE NOT ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE ROAD!!!!!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Misc/MonkeyScream.jpg



This debate is sounding very much like another a long time ago about a jacket. We know how that turned out.
How did that turn out? (Answer later Kurt;)) Because I thought the SL guys thought they were vindicated, while the anti-SL guys thought they were vindicated and everyone just stopped arguing about it?

Not to drag this thread off topic, into that debate, but Bill Kelso makes the most accurate Raiders replica that I have seen, based on what I see on screen, and I believe that he has said it is striated grainy veg tanned lamb and not shrunken lamb. But I could certainly be wrong about that. I wish Platon would chime in here and clarify.

Forgive me for going off topic:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/03_relichunter_zpse8814fee.jpg

bendingoak
02-11-2014, 10:34 PM
Come on guys, the photo above clearly shows a lighter ribbon in Raiders.

This debate is sounding very much like another a long time ago about a jacket. We know how that turned out.

What I got from the "origin" story above is that Marc and Steve eyeballed what they thought the right colour is to match the movie. We don't know what hat Bernie looked at (safely ruling out Desi's) from which of 3 movies, or how "close enough" his criteria was.


Your taking that little statement as the only proof or bit of information we have and you aren't privy to the entire conversation.


I find it funny that you want to use photos to prove the ribbon isn't right but when someone post photos to prove it is you turn your nose to it.

neutronbomb
02-12-2014, 02:04 AM
Edit: I thought I should add, just kidding Bending Oak. All in good fun. From what I can tell you are a man of conviction who prides himself on his character.

I have the answer to your last post Mac, but I'm not at home at my computer (have to take me at my word on that). But rest assured, you'll be able to rest easier tonight knowing there's a respond to your question 8)

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 05:29 AM
I find it funny that you want to use photos to prove the ribbon isn't right but when someone post photos to prove it is you turn your nose to it.

Nah, I'm like Dirty Harry, I just hate everybody. ;)

More seriously, it depends on the image. We all have our opinion on these things, and my opinion is based on having professionally shot film in a variety of mediums. Many things come into play, and I am happy to discuss them. But I need some time to lay out how I see it. The upshot is that IMO the AB ribbon colour is based on an illusion.

Re the jacket, I was referring to certain people saying you can't tell a type of leather by looking at screenshots etc. People saying the jacket was smooth, etc. The reality is that unless a faction of us hadn't pushed the whole shrunken lamb issue, people would still be wearing smooth jackets today and you wouldn't have options like Kelso, etc. with textured / striated varieties of Raiders jacket.

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 05:45 AM
First there were people before kelso who said it wasn't smooth.

Please explain what you mean by the AB ribbon is based on a illusion????

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 06:24 AM
Yes. I was one of them. That's my point.

Re the ribbon, just what I said above - Its my opinion that the actual Raiders ribbon isn't as dark as the AB for the reason you and Mac mention - that what you see in most shots in the film is not reflective of reality. I will lay out my thinking soon enough. It would be easier and quicker had someone forwarded me an AB ribbon, but you get that in the big city.

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry anything you post here Kurt I'm not going to believe. 1, why should I take your word when you won't even consider mine. 2, Mac has posted photos of screen shots and photos of both Raiders and CS that look exactly the same. 3, like I stated several times you can't use photos and screne grabs to prove or debunk. 4, it's clear to me you have it in for the AB guys and myself. I think it's a bit of sower grapes on your part.



Example, you want to use photos as proof to debunk the ribbon but won't take any photo examples as proof that it is and you want documentation on top of that. Which I have I feeling if I provided it you would yell (photo shop,) or something to that fact.

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 03:32 PM
Yes. I was one of them. That's my point.

Re the ribbon, just what I said above - Its my opinion that the actual Raiders ribbon isn't as dark as the AB for the reason you and Mac mention - that what you see in most shots in the film is not reflective of reality. I will lay out my thinking soon enough. It would be easier and quicker had someone forwarded me an AB ribbon, but you get that in the big city.


Why in the world would I trust you? Why in the world would I do anything for you, you have done nothing but insult, and attack myself and the AB guys.

RCSignals
02-12-2014, 08:31 PM
Photos of that dino hide were exaggerated, and disliked by the "smooth leather" brigade. Later accepted
"Shrunken lamb" is just a term for a process, and not even a universally used term for the same process. That is why one vendors shrunken lamb hide is not that of another. Different terms. Same process/result.

I still say the ribbon is brown

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 08:59 PM
Why in the world would I trust you? Why in the world would I do anything for you, you have done nothing but insult, and attack myself and the AB guys.

To be honest mate, I wouldn't expect you to. From day one, you've demonstrated to me that you can't see the forest for the trees. Nothing I every say has any merit to you if it doesn't jive with what you find sacred. That's fine. It'd be nice if you could admit you are a hypocrite, as despite actually SHOWING evidence for my claims re block shape back in the day, you of course went off like a nut then too. You sure as hell didn't extend any courtesy. Yet in your head you manage to turn straight-up questioning of something into an attack. But that's how you are -at least to me- and I accept that is how you are.

That being said, I'm really only interested in figuring things out. It's not ~sour~ grapes. You probably don't get this but I was never going to be a hatter as a career. It was always a bit of a hobby with a limited life - there was only so many hats I could make, and frankly the hourly rate is shit for what the market will accept, so there was no point in me outsoucing. The only thing that gripes me is when I see something imperfect, be it jacket copies that aren't precise yet being sold as the "original pattern", or hats with to my eye looks the wrong block shape (where no-one to this day took me up on the "80mm challenge").

When did I request "documentation?" Re photos. Of course there are ways to examine photos / screen grabs and have them tell us ~something~. As I keep saying, I will get to it as soon as I have more ribbons in hand. I will also show my workings.

The ironic thing is that you've prejudged that I am not going to do some tests and then come out and say "You know what? I think this could be it. It's in the ballpark."

I don't see much point in me discussing this anymore until I can articulate with pictures and we will see what comes out in the wash.

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 10:43 PM
Kurt you are so full of it. I don't extend respect to you because right out of the gate you attack Steve, Marc and myself. I have only defended myself and my fellow hat makers and friends. Why don't you tell it like it is. You are the one attacking, I have only went on the defense from your attacks. Go ahead and photo shop your bullshit all you want. I know the truth.

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 10:49 PM
I'm losing the topic of this thread:
It's about the color of the ribbon? Some find it too dark?

John, maybe, the ribbon on the screenused hat was dyed slightly lighter, than the one you use todays.
A very small fraction of lighter brown shade... It's possible. No biggie, really.
Even felt batches, from one to another, dyed with the same recipe, in the same place, comes differently. Sometimes the outside weather affects dying.

Ok, I know nothing about lenses, filters and stage lighting conditions, etc...
So, (here comes a craaazy -and probably impossible- idea) it's possible to take pictures of the AB ribbon with a camera, set with the very same lenses/filters configuration that SLOCOMBE used to shot the movie, back in 1980 ?¿?¿?¿?¿?
ok, I want to be the first in laughing at this: :D :D :D
I know, ridiculous idea. Sorry :-[



I don't know, you tell me... :rolleyes:

First you can't use the desi screen used hat for 3 reasons. 1, we have no proof that it is the screen used hat. Im not saying it isn't but if you can't take my word. then you can't take anyones word. its only fare and to be consistent. 2, lets say that is in fact a screen used hat. That hats is distressed and old. You can't compare a distressed old ribbon with a brand new one. 3, whatever comparison shots you used will not be taken under the exact same condition.

even your own post with and photo is not accurate. The statement that grosgrain has a edge and a Petersham does not is accurate but all 4 movie hats were grosgrain.

why is it when Mac post shots where the AB and Penman Indy ribbon shows comparison shot to screen used that are an exact match we can use that but if we show shots that debunks it we can. I'll tell you why, This is a Personal attack driven by other hat makers.

HENRY JONES JR.
02-13-2014, 12:02 AM
124

Hopefully this can be accepted as evidence of what I'm doing even though it's just a photo. :)




LOOOVE ALFA ROMEOS! I have a classic 1991 series 4 spider veloce. Hoping Alfa will get back to the U.S. soon. I'd like a modern Alfa. Mazda Miata and the new Alfa Spider will share the same rear wheel drive platform, major chassis components and electonics, but they will have different engines and body work. I don't know which kind of Alfa you own Gunslinger....but I LOVE it!

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 01:13 AM
:rolleyes:

John, you have a habit of taking me not flat out believing you or seeing a shortcoming as an attack. Of course you offer little proof and ask people to take your word. Yet I push for facts and you infer that I photoshop things. Anything to denigrate someone that doesn't back you.

Man up, stop acting like a girl, and let people judge based on the information available.

That aside, Diego makes an excellent point. You know, that whole looking for facts thing.

Hmmm...

125

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 01:19 AM
LOOOVE ALFA ROMEOS! I have a classic 1991 series 4 spider veloce. Hoping Alfa will get back to the U.S. soon. I'd like a modern Alfa. Mazda Miata and the new Alfa Spider will share the same rear wheel drive platform, major chassis components and electonics, but they will have different engines and body work. I don't know which kind of Alfa you own Gunslinger....but I LOVE it!

Cool! It was looking at that era of Spider that gave me a hankering to buy an Alfa, actually. Just great slightly out there styling!

Mines a 159. Alfa will be back to the US but sounds like those platform issues may hold things up. Here's hoping the replacement for the 159 is RWD or I may end up giving into my wife's desire for an older Aston.

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 01:30 AM
you are so full of it. You have attacked Steve, Marc and myself. I have only come into threads to defend them and myself.

"Man up and stop being a girl." THATS AN ATTACK you man up and say that to my face and see how much of a man I am.

I never asked you to take my word. I never asked anyone to take my word. I said if you can't take my word then you can't take someone else as proof. Learn to read.

I also notice you never address the photos that Mac posted show the screen used and the AB ribbon. Why it punches a big fat hole in you theory and shows my point that you can't use photos to prove or debunk anything.

I have no problem with people making up their own minds but I do mind when so called hat makers jump into things to taint the waters.

- - - Updated - - -


The caption came with the photo and the photo is not mine. I'd bet whoever wrote the caption relied on screen caps & anecdotes though. ;)

But well played sir, well played! ;D


I know you didn't put that together. also, take a look at the ribbon in that photo. It was used at some point and taken off a hat. Look at the thread at the end of the ribbon. Can't go by that color just based on that alone.

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 01:49 AM
Ok, if you have offered anything BUT words or recounts of what other people have allegedly seen / said / done, what are those things? IE if you were writing an academic essay that you do in fact use "the" ribbon, what evidence do you provide other than a story?

In that spirit, if you bothered to read without getting huffy, you will see that I explained my addressing of images is forthcoming once I pull together some things. I thought maybe you may have been able to put that together by my posting of American Cinematographer above. (I was in my old Film School's library, researching this stuff at the time the last posts came through.)

I don't know why you give a shit that I think your ribbon could be too dark, John. Your accusations of me bemoaning my not becoming a "real" hatter or something isn't accurate and really isn't relevant to what we're trying to discuss / debate here. So can I ask that we just stick to the actual discussion at hand?

Other people have good things that they are including, but it just gets swamped in Grade 8 nah nee nah nah's.

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 03:40 AM
I'm sorry but The screen grab, AB and the Desi hat look very similar to me and the SJ looks way to narrow but I still say you can't use this as a comparison because the ribbon nor the the condition aren't the same. Did any of you guys think about shrinkage????? Notice how the the screen used hat is pulling real hard in the stitches? due to shrinking. The SJ hat doesn't have that. It's pulling because they didn't scroll the ribbon before sewing the ribbon on the hat. They just pull the ribbon tight and that why the vertical lines are leaning on the top.

- - - Updated - - -


We know the guy on the left here is wearing a hat with the AB ribbon. Looks remarkably similar to me.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Hats/RibbonCompareKOTCSampROTLA_zpsbde0bb83.jpg


Kurt, Why don't you comment on these images??????


Kurt,
Like I posted so many times you can't use photos to prove or debunk anything like this but you still seem to go out of you way to debunk at every chance you can get. Thats the real question. Why don't you comment on MAcs photos????????

Kurt, Notice who is name calling. Not me but you. everyone ask yourself why? it's because Kurt aka gunslinger is on a mission. Don't let him BS you.

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 03:56 AM
Sorry to chip in if your bewildered-looking questions are pointed just at NB, but those ARE the two images that I commented on above. Do you not see that the ribbon in Raiders looks more brown than the CS one? Even in its own darker, non-dusty parts?

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 04:17 AM
sorry no. Pick a spot and it looks brown, pick another spot it looks black. The CS looks more like the Raiders then the SJ.

I stated a bunch of time even in that last post. You can't use photos or screen grabs to prove or disprove anything.

I didn't address something of your post before this. I don't give a shit what you think about the ribbon or me. I do care that you go out of your way to trash Steve, Marc and myself. I will not let you continue on your campaign unchecked.

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 06:02 AM
I need a ~rubs bridge of the nose~ emoticon.

djd
02-13-2014, 06:02 AM
What surprises me most about reading this lot is that the basis for the finding of the 'real deal' ribbon is apparently build upon sand... It may or at not be the correct colour as far as I'm concerned but the evidence for if being the correct Raiders era ribbon is slight and based only upon what Steve -Marc - Bernie perceived the correct ribbon to be. And you'll forgive me I hope when I say that Bernie was wrong about almost every other costuming choice on KOTCS....

- - - Updated - - -

But hey. I'm not bashing AB. I love the ribbon colour on mine and I do prefer that one aspect over my HJ replica from S&J but that's based upon aesthetics rather than what the actual Raiders ribbon looked like

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 08:19 AM
DjD the post about the conversation between Steve and Bernie is just part of the conversation and I never used it as proof of the ribbon. Also, just because you didnt like some of the other aspect of the gear you didnt like or didnt look like raiders doesnt mean that bernie didnt know what he was talking about. There are other factors. Vendors arent around anymore, material couldnt be had anymore and he didnt like the original materials. Again, im not using one source as confirmation.There is a paper trail and lab results that don't lie.

djd
02-13-2014, 11:46 AM
John, my post wasn't directed at you and I'm not attacking anyone here. It's simply an observation.
I'm a little bemused about the lab tests though. Did you have a piece of original Raiders ribbon to test against? If not I dont see what lab tests can prove?

- - - Updated - - -

At the end of the day, both you and Steve make great hats. They speak for themselves. The ribbon looks great. Frankly that's all that matters to me and the vast majority of customers who buy a Penman or an AB.

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 02:54 PM
dJD, I never said you were attacking me. I was just explaining to you that you can't use that statement posted about Steve's conversation, I don't. I know what this ribbon is because of several reason. Again, I can't show it because it would set off a becan to the source and besides that I would still get the acused of doctoring the proof.

All I'm saying is that take note what's behind the push behind the debunking. There have been other people who made claim that they have found the original maker of a prop or gear or material and they have been taken at their word. The Desi hat is a example of that. If his word is taken without any proof at all. Why isn't my word? How can photos of a hat of a so called screen used hat is used to debunk our ribbon when your taking it on faith. Do you not see the logic of that. How can anyone ask me for proof in the same breath that your using photos from a hat that was taken on just a guys word to debunk our ribbon.


Again, DJD. Never thought you were attacking me at all. I don't mind question about anything from fellow fans and members. I dont think you can use screen grabs/photos comparison to use as proof or disproof of anything. I do think it is wrong to be insulted and attacked by other hat makers. That's why I will continue to pop in here and in every forum to let people know what really going on.

Indiego Jones
02-13-2014, 04:08 PM
First you can't use the desi screen used hat for 3 reasons. 1, we have no proof that it is the screen used hat. Im not saying it isn't but if you can't take my word. then you can't take anyones word. its only fare and to be consistent. 2, lets say that is in fact a screen used hat. That hats is distressed and old. You can't compare a distressed old ribbon with a brand new one. 3, whatever comparison shots you used will not be taken under the exact same condition.

even your own post with and photo is not accurate. The statement that grosgrain has a edge and a Petersham does not is accurate but all 4 movie hats were grosgrain.
John, when I said the "screenused hat", I wasn't referring to Desi's hat. I meant the fedora used through the movie. In general.

"Maybe", the perception some guys have of beeing SLIGHTLY lighter than todays same offer, comes from a VERY SMALL difference on the SAME dying process.

I was trying to say: It is the same ribbon of the hat Harrison Ford used to shot RAIDERS, and the almost imperceptible difference comes from a batch to batch variation.

In vain I thought ending or, at least cold things, to this topic. I was wrong.


why is it when Mac post shots where the AB and Penman Indy ribbon shows comparison shot to screen used that are an exact match we can use that but if we show shots that debunks it we can. I'll tell you why, This is a Personal attack driven by other hat makers.

On the picture MAC posted, I replied: "even the felt colors look the same, not only the ribbon". And we know felt was different. Very.
Even different material (Raiders rabbit vs CS beaver)
Ergo, I was agreeing with you on you can't trust screen caps for comparison shots.



I have no problem with people making up their own minds but I do mind when so called hat makers jump into things to taint the waters.
You keep saying this, from page 1.
Maybe today I set up a little more paranoid than other days, and I think you are referring to me...
I've told you: Kurt-Gunslinger is no longer making hats.
On this board, the only 2 hat makers are you, and us.

You know I respect you. You know I never criticized your hats.
I even said ON THIS VERY SAME THREAD I believe your ribbon is THE ribbon.

I can't stop members to use hats I sold to them to do comparison pictures.
You know that, right?

I didn't started this thread, or the other on COW. I just made a few posts, expressing my opinion.
I even posted ON THIS THREAD the original Steve and Marc's posts -no editing-, describing how they have found the ribbon!!!!


The CS looks more like the Raiders then the SJ.
I agree 100%.
But that picture NB and MAC used to show our ribbon came out too "saturated", so to speak. Too light, too purple. A distorted coloration.


Kurt, Notice who is name calling. Not me but you. everyone ask yourself why? it's because Kurt aka gunslinger is on a mission. Don't let him BS you.

Ok.
I'd like to make a public statement:
IF ANY F&G MEMBER IS TRYING TO DEBUNK AB/PENMAN RIBBON, TO PROMOTE STEELE & JONES HATS: PLEASE STOP RIGHT KNOW.
WE DON'T SUPPORT OR ENCOURAGE THAT KIND OF DISHONEST PROCEDURE.

I hated when at COW a "selected group" of members, tried to debunk Wested about the Raiders jacket. Just to impose US WINGS/NEIL COOPER "Raiders pattern" jacket...in calfskin :D
I hated because I believed them. Because I trusted them.
I even made/posted sketches ideas for the label that jacket might carried...felt like an idiot.

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 05:03 PM
IJ, I never thought for a 2nd. That you were. If I came out that way I am sorry. I respect you guys on how you carry yourselves and what you. I so badly want to see one of your guys hats first hand so I can promote you guys when I have customers who are in your prices range. I can't do that without seeing them first hand but I really want to.


I agree about the MAC photo comparison. That has always been my stand o using photos as proof. You just can't you will never be able to replicate the same condition.

This forum and COW isn't the only place doing this. This has been going on for some time and by a few.

Again, I will say this to you and your Partner. I have never had bad feeling towards you guys and your biz. Never felt you guys were attacking me. again, If I have made you feel that way I am sorry for that.

Indiego Jones
02-13-2014, 05:45 PM
Ok, thanks for your reply.

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 08:55 PM
I do take exception to being painted as someone that's out to discredit just for the sake of it. It simply isn't true, and is kind of offensive.

Desi isn't selling hats to anyone other than a one-off owner that was provided with X evidence of its legitimacy. It's a different case to someone in retail. If I run any ad on TV, it's actually law that I provide substantiation of any claims. Same deal with academia. You state your evidence or don't expect to be taken seriously. It's just reality. So I don't get why such a big hand waving hysteria happens in anything involving one particular vendor. In any event, real Evidence hasn't been provided in this case, and that's fine. People can make up their own mind whether to take a leap of faith.

Tony Nowak had many people question his Raiders jacket when people observed certain things. He dealt with logical skepticism like a man. Ditto Wested. There were similar threads about Todd's hat offering, which John had no issue with commenting on (making a disparaging remark about Indyclone IIRC). Many things have been said against other vendors by one particular vendor, including one against Akubra just a few days ago. Against Herbert Johnson, etc. but of course, that's all ok.

So I say again, harden up. These various Indy sites are forums. Look up the meaning of the word.

bendingoak
02-13-2014, 10:04 PM
Kurt, you are so full of it. You have gone out of your way so many times attacking Steve, Marc and myself. I don't mind if someone makes a statement that they don't like something of mine but every single moment you get you jump on it.

as for indy clone comment. He made a statement that he thought my hats looked too tall. All I said was I think his hat looks too short and small for his face. It was a matter of point of view. I did not attack Todds hat. How he makes them, the material he uses. People were talking about how hats 9 specs) look on people.


Look how much effort you are putting into trying to debunk it ?????? why the effort ????

from day one you have attacked me, said offensive things to me, called me names. You have never said one decent thing to me or about me. I have never said anything to you except stepped in when you attacked Steve.

Gunslinger
02-13-2014, 10:47 PM
Look, mate, I could say exactly the same thing back. Since I started having anything to do with hats you have given me nothing but grief. Generally trying to bully or drive measured analysis off the rails, be it accusing me of photoshopping (your old stand-by, which you use again above in case you don't like what I am saying), or whatever. I have said multiple times that you Steve and Marc make great hats. I still believe that. There really isn't any need for you to be so defensive. You have to take some responsibility for your role in escalating the general aggro ness.

I'm not even sure what you think my opinion is about the ribbon; even though I have stated quite clearly multiple times above. So yet again I just ask that we discuss the ribbon here and leave all the personal bs out of it.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 12:19 AM
Sorry your spinning yarn now.
I don't mind anyone discussing anything but like I stated many times you cant use photos to prove or to debunk anything. Your the one who got nasty.

neutronbomb
02-14-2014, 01:54 AM
Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

I'm totally and absolutely pressed for time, but I need to clear things up about what this thread is about and my role in it.

1. Yes, I can confirm that bendingoak has stated many times that photos, behind the scenes photos, screen grabs, etc. cannot be used to show anything whatsoever and I have a very strong feeling that after any post containing any photo or screen grab that we will be informed of this, lest anyone has forgotten. I suspect for Bending Oak that this is a fact and not just an opinion or belief.

2. I disagree and will continue to work on this thread as it is very interesting. Everyone has the right and is welcome to contribute and the discussion will NOT be shut down. If I see repeated attempts to shut the thread down, then I will deal with it. This is NOT corrupt COW so those tactics will not work. Nothing that Mac has contributed is being ignored. Just because a post is not addressed immediately, does not mean one isn't forthcoming. It takes time sometimes.

3. I personally started this thread and I am not a hatter. I can also confirm that this threads goal is to research the ribbon used in ROTLA. Color, type, etc. Whatever can be discovered. I am interested in the discussion and where it leads. There are NOT any agendas or any attacks directed at Bending Oak or AB or AB Deluxe. If indeed they have THE ribbon, then that is awesome. That means my AB Deluxe has the ribbon. Which would be cool. I also better NOT get accused of trying to promote another vendors ribbon over another. I'm real, real, REAL heated about that, so I'll quit typing

4. I have asked two questions that have been ignored. One was directed at Mac regarding the ribbon he posted. The other was at bending oak asking if the lab results confirmed that the ribbon was 100% rayon.

5. I am not claiming by my compares that Diego's ribbon is the ribbon used for Raiders. I have three Raiders brown fedoras. Those are the hats I have to use. So that's what I'm using. I was looking at screen captures that were not mine and I was struck by the ribbon and how it reminded me more of the S&J's than of AB's. So I figured I'd talk about it and that's what the deal with that.

6. People are wrong sometimes. It doesn't mean they are lying. It doesn't mean they don't believe it 100%. So when I hear "take me at my word", well let's talk about that. It is unreasonable to say to another person that if they want to do their own research, then they are as good as calling someone a liar, or not taking them for their word, or whatever. And that is not the case. If someone wants to do their own research then that is there business and one shouldn't take it personally. Let's not for a second think that just because I used Desi's fedora that I am accepting his/their word that it is The HERO Fedora period. It has been presented as that and is generally accepted as that and it is being looked at and examined and compared against because of that. Much like the AB ribbon is being looked at and compared at and examined because it has also been presented as THE ribbon. So we'll see how it all shakes out.

So you are correct John. Fairs, fair. Nobody's taking Desi at his word. Nothing is assumed and everything is being looked at.

7. It appears to me that Marc Kitter made a mistake regarding the boots. It doesn't mean he lied about his research. What let's say he said something like, "These ARE the color of the boots. And there was NO white toe stitching. I did the research, I know what I have, and you had better take me at my word, no discussion, or you are calling me a liar and trying to debunk me. Period." That's unreasonable. Because no one is perfect and people make mistakes sometimes. He "discovered" the boots John. And he also "discovered" the ribbon. And for that reason I don't take anyone at their word that their conclusion is correct. I take him at his word that he did what he said he did. TO BE 100% CLEAR: This is not the same thing as accusing or believing someone is purposefully lying about something. It is that I know that people aren't perfect and make mistakes.

8. And I'm not even saying that and no one else is either. It's that I want to personally look at it for myself in the way that I want (screen caps and all) because it is my right as a person to do so and we'll see where it leads.

9. And if anyone would like to join in then that would be awesome too.

Harry Steele
02-14-2014, 02:32 AM
Great to hear all that, NB, cause I thought this thread might be going nowhere cause nobody seemed to trust anybody.

I'll just share a thought. Please nobody take this as an offense, cause I'm not attacking or defending anyone. I just try to keep this civilized, if possible.

At no point I’m against John’s business, first cause I don't personally know him and I’ve never seen one of his hats in person, and then cause the hats Diego and me make at S&J are in other range, so I don't even think we are competing for the same market. On the other hand, we use the ribbon we have, and we hardly could use other as it’s not easy to get things into our country these days, cause the government we have have closed the customs and you can’t get things into our country, only can send things out. John already said he had no problem with us, so that’s fair enough for everybody.

That being said, I was trying to figure out how to help this whole ribbon chat go somewhere.

I’m not aware of the whole story of how AB first, and John later, got their ribbon, and if they were told by its maker that it was the ribbon used in the movie (and that was proved by the seller), or if they assumed that cause of some reason or fact they found. I guess they needed to compare it to pictures or screen caps to be sure, as they probably didn’t have access to the hat used in the movie. Or maybe the seller had something that proved they provided the ribbon for the movie.

I think it would be useful to this thread to hear that story from John’s mouth, and not recalling older posts, and then telling what info is provided from those labs exams he made, and compared to what. I guess all this can be told without telling the store of the ribbon, or the lab or any other clue so its perfectly understood why he can’t reveal the source of this ribbon.

Maybe many of those things were told before, but it would be great to hear again the whole story at once, from the person who is involved in it.
I guess he had the same doubts as everybody before he knew about this ribbon, and he must have got enough evidence to be sure and make the claim of having a ribbon from the original maker. If he got convinced then, he should convince people now. I guess there must be any good prove that can be shared without telling any source, and this will help to clear all this matter, I think.

At least is much useful than keeping accusing, answering, insulting or misunderstanding.

This is just what I think would be good to solve this problem, but of course nobody is obligated to reply, as nobody is being judged.

And if he decides not to answer (which is his right), or not to answer to the whole of it, this thread should go on without mentioning him or his ribbon (so there's no try to debunk his work), and make focus on the Indy ribbon (that used in the making of the movie), which is the real subject of this thread.

Note: I edited our government closed the "Customs" insted of "costumes", which didn't make sense, just a misspelling.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 03:21 AM
Neutronbomb. You can do anything you like. I was just saying that you really can't use photos and screen grabs as prove one way or the other. There is no way your going to duplicate the same condition. For an example, the screen uses hat (Desi hat ) is very old, distressed and the ribbon has shrink. On top of that you can't replicate the same condition taking a photo. To compare the desir hat to a brand new ribbon on the AB/Penman ribbon. It's flawed. Do you not see the logic? On top of all that you are using the Desi hat as it is 100% screen used hat without proof. Thats also not logical and flawed. Can you not see that you are using a item that is taken on someone word to debunk someone's else's word. Do you not see my meaning?

I did in fact believed Marc's word when he told me what he found. He was excited as fab like myself and everyone here. I did my own research because of the price I have to pay for this ribbon. People were asking me to sell some to customers for their own personally use and I said no because I knew no one would believe me I paid that amount for ribbon. That's what prompted my searchl I found out a lot more then I set out to find. The ribbon turned out to be more then the Indy ribbon it turned out to be something big as a vintage style hat makers dream.

I would have been more open with some of the research and the lab findings but for a couple of reason. It would set of a becon to where this ribbon is and I know people would debunk the proof as if I doctored it up. I have been attacked by a few Indy hat makers, some who make Indy hats and some that don't. This has happened on a few forums. I was accused not to long ago on even on what I pay for it and how much I use to make a hat. This has started a while back as a small thing but it keeps growing to things as silly as I have to prove how much ribbon I use on a hat. How insane is that? I have to prove how much in inches I use to make a hat.

RCSignals
02-14-2014, 05:50 AM
Well. All I can say is I have met NB, and he is a most genuine and honest man. He is passionate of all of this but open minded in his research. Make no mistake of it


I have also met John and can say similar for him. I think John and his beliefs and passion though come across better in person than written here. I don't believe John thinks photos are completely useless, I think he simply believes they are not completely reliable, and hasn't that about using photos been pointed out by almost everyone? They are a good tool, and study of them does reveal information that can be valuable, especially when their limitations are realised

We here are not the only people to use photographic evidence to further information and knowledge.

Gunslinger
02-14-2014, 12:57 PM
Thank you Neutronbomb for articulating my thoughts better than I can! Creepy-accurate. And thanks Mac for your reprint / observations re the ribbon. I'm looking forward to being able to compare an AB and S&J ribbon against multiple modern and vintage HJ ribbons I've amassed over the years soon.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 03:07 PM
Does everyone notice how Kurt simply passes over Macs post. That he is putting together this mass amount of evidence that will prove that the AB ribbon isn't what it is. He has a agenda and nothing is getting in his way.

Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

Now to Macs post even though theses photo shows in favor of the AB ribbon I still say you can't use it as proof.

How do we know the Desi hat is in fact a screen used hat? How do we know that that is the AB ribbon? Or for that matter is any of the ribbon what they say they are? None of the ribbon are in the same conditions? Same lighting? Same age?

You can use photos to say that's compelling images but it's not proof.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 04:01 PM
You know Kurt with all your name calling and insults and attacking over the years I have realized you are doing the exact same thing Patterson used to do to people.

Gunslinger
02-14-2014, 08:08 PM
Oh just give it a rest, John. I've explained why I haven't laid out my thoughts, but you seem to be following some sort of Bernaisian approach to PR. Tell people something enough and they will believe it. So stop laying track to discredit MY work before you or anyone has even seen it, hypocrite.

I'm not going to get drawn into explaining anything until I am ready, or until I have both an AB and S&J ribbon in hand to actually look at. As it is, you're going to shit-can it no matter what. Of course, I'm ready for shouts of "you're so full of it , blah blah photoshop!" - you already started that little campaign. Again, the irony is even after all of this I'm not actually trying to prejudge anything. I'm actually wondering how sincere YOU are, your systematic reaction to me is so absolute. Judging me by your own standards? "Patterson"? Seriously? Oh please. We know which person is quick to anger at someone upsetting the status quo, laughably before it even happens, if anything even ~does~ happen.

In any event, as I have noted above, it would make it kind of hard to analyse something I don't have. After you didn't send me a ribbon when you could have, so I had to arrange another one. Again, because I care about evidence, facts and the right analytical process.

Gunslinger
02-14-2014, 08:14 PM
(Just realised the shitting of bricks that will occur when I say that what I am going to lay out may well have implications for judging boot colour.)

Reaction could be harsh. Facepalm memes on standby.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 08:33 PM
reallY? Laid out you thoughts. You have been spinning this shit for years. It's your personal Campaign. you already posted on COW a few years back with side by side comparison shots with AB ribbon and another trying to debunk it. Now your saying you never had it? get your lies right.

You are the one like Patterson. You insult, name call and bully. Thats Patterson to the T.


As for the boots. You just Proved my point that you can't go by screen grabs and photos as FACT. Marc used screen grabs from DVD to get his color and he was wrong based on blu ray. Wait a few years for the next system and see things change again. Are you not understanding what I'm trying to say.


There was a time that everyone thought that the Raiders jacket was smooth. Tony said he had access to a screen used Jacket and it had texture to it. So many people thought he was full of it now that we have blu ray people have changed their collective minds. Thats my point, YOU CAN NOT USE PHOTOS AND SCREEN GRABS AS FACT OR PROOF EITHER WAY/

Notice how he keeps skipping over Macs post. Notice how his single focus to insult and attack. single minded to debunk. Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

Gunslinger
02-14-2014, 08:47 PM
No, I ~had~ it, when I reblocked Neutronbombs Adventurebilt that had turned into a traffic cone. Get ~your~ accusations right.

"He did work with them to match the boot that he saw on film" Sounds like an approximation based on film, not reality. You sir, are proving ~my~ point.

This is one of my hobbies. I want the best replications of gear possible. End of story.

And, of course, as I promised:
126

RCSignals
02-14-2014, 10:35 PM
Sigh

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 11:03 PM
You are full of it. On cow you had two ribbons matching them up to show how your ribbon was just like the AB ribbon way before you had the ABD.


The the AB boot thing is proving my point. He worked with the original maker to match what he saw on DVD screen grabs. Posted in the boot thread there are now blu ray screen grabs showing it to be lighter in color
then what was on DVD screen grabs. That is making my point. You can't use screen grabs or photos as proof.

If you want the best replicated gear then go find the one you think is the best and buy that gear. You don't have to go out you way to attack, insult and bully people who are trying to do just that. I'm not asking you to buy anything from me. I'm just saying one thing. YOU CAN NOT USE PHOTOS OR SCREEN GRABS AS PROOF?


THis place is starting to turn into what you blamed COW of doing. The owners let the big bully in the house insult and attack people they don't like so he can direct support to his friends. I guess you can bully anyone you want when you own the place, sounds like Patterson.

bendingoak
02-14-2014, 11:24 PM
The last time we were at odds. I extended my hand to you and you took it. We agreed to try to be nicer to each other but you insult and attack. All I did in this thread was to give my point of view. which was two points. 1, that you can't use screen grabs and photos as fact or proof. 2, that I wish I could share what i have but it would give away the source. Thats it. I see what that olive branch means to you.

Gunslinger
02-14-2014, 11:59 PM
Keep throwing the shit out there John. No matter what I do I'm full of it. Anyone can read this thread and make up their own mind as to whether someone should be able to have an opinion about the colour of a ribbon and who is being respectful and not overreacting or acting like an angry bully. Again, reread your own post. You are allowed to have an opinion but no-one else that disagrees with you is allowed one. I have better things to do than keep responding to your shit. I'm done restating my position until I have the ribbons in hand.

neutronbomb
02-15-2014, 01:25 AM
I don't see it that way regarding Gunslinger, but entitled to your opinion. I'll be creating a new thread to move all the back and forth into so it's not clogging up this research thread. I'm off to dinner with the wife so it'll happen in the am. And that's where I want that part of the discussion to stay.


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

bendingoak
02-15-2014, 02:56 AM
Keep it up?????? Sounds like a threat. Again being the bully. Your just pissed because I don't let you get away with it. you not even reading my post. You can have your opinion. The only thing I have ever said is that you can't use photos and screen grabs as fact. I'm not the one name calling, insulting and attacking. You have been doing that for years.


I take it neutron this is your forum and I'm not aloud to make a statement anymore about the my ribbon????

Gunslinger
02-15-2014, 03:10 AM
That's your version of reality. I hope it's working for you.

RCSignals
02-15-2014, 05:16 AM
John. I believe Neutron just wants to put all the back and forth between Gunslinger and you in it's separate space. The actual ribbon discussion and your contribution to it will stay in here


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

bendingoak
02-15-2014, 02:57 PM
John. I believe Neutron just wants to put all the back and forth between Gunslinger and you in it's separate space. The actual ribbon discussion and your contribution to it will stay in here



All I ever wanted to do is just that. I don't ever need to talk with him at all. I just won't let him make stuff up or use his photos as if it is proof or fact.


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

admin
02-15-2014, 05:09 PM
ADMIN NOTE: repying as neutronbomb, but logged in as admin. No time to log in back and forth as I have like 4 minutes to do admin.

No not true John. It is all of our forum as much as is humanly possible and I try to keep the administration of threads, posts, and content to an absolute minimum. It is as open and transparent a forum as we can make it and you are absolutely allowed to post about your ribbon and contribute to the discussion as much as you want. Nothing will be deleted or lost with the discussion between you and Gunslinger and it can all be found in the thread in Nukin' the Fridge that is already there. I'll provide a link when done moving. If there are concerns about the content getting moved or fear of editing/deleting posts or anything like that, then let's not be afraid to discuss it. Just not in this thread after the moving is done. So anyone with concerns about all this.....speak now or forever hold your peace in this thread anyway about the particular subject this post is regarding.

I'll actually leave everything as is for right now so everyone can see exactly the entire conversation in it's contextual entirety and be able to read this reply and look at everything in this thread for understanding. Later today in hopefully like 4 or 5 hours I'll move the back and forth between Bending Oak and Gunslinger to the http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Personal-Discussion-Between-Bending-Oak-and-Gunslinger in the Nukin' the Fridge section of the forum which already has like 4 pages going on. I changed the name of that thread from what it was for clarification. When I'm done, I'll join the two ribbon threads as there are quite a bit of posts in the previous one regarding the Raiders and AB's ribbon.


Keep it up?????? Sounds like a threat. Again being the bully. Your just pissed because I don't let you get away with it. you not even reading my post. You can have your opinion. The only thing I have ever said is that you can't use photos and screen grabs as fact. I'm not the one name calling, insulting and attacking. You have been doing that for years.


I take it neutron this is your forum and I'm not aloud to make a statement anymore about the my ribbon????


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

bendingoak
02-15-2014, 07:06 PM
Not true? I can't pop in as a admin and move things around.

Gunslinger
02-15-2014, 08:19 PM
John all I want to be able to do is work out if indeed this ribbon is the right ribbon for the Raiders hat in terms of how it appears on film versus the real world.

I feel that quite often, when I venture an opinion about anything to do with you or AB (ever) you jump down my throat and end up insinuating many things, including that I would fabricate evidence. I ask you to stop this now.

As I have said before, by all accounts, you make great hats. Steve and Marc make great hats. I would encourage someone to buy them for their quality. But I have issues with the screen accuracy. I'm allowed to have that opinion.

If you truly do believe that I would try to falsely argue anything, you are mistaken.

As I have said before, let's just examine the facts. And don't worry, I know exactly the limitations of film / photography and will of course take that into account and display any workings. I would be 100% satisfied if we can find out once and for all that this is THE ribbon, because we will finally know what should be on our replicas. I actually want to work WITH you on this, not fight.

Can we PLEASE do that?


All I ever wanted to do is just that. I don't ever need to talk with him at all. I just won't let him make stuff up or use his photos as if it is proof or fact.

Gunslinger
02-15-2014, 09:03 PM
John I have also sent you a PM. Please check that you got it as it isn't in my outbox even though I sent it to you twice.

admin
02-15-2014, 09:57 PM
Not true? I can't pop in as a admin and move things around.

The response was in reference to this. Both parts of your sentence were addressed. What do you want John? Why are you thrashing around?


........I take it neutron this is your forum and I'm not aloud to make a statement anymore about the my ribbon????



.......No not true John. It is all of our forum as much as is humanly possible and I try to keep the administration of threads, posts, and content to an absolute minimum. It is as open and transparent a forum as we can make it and you are absolutely allowed to post about your ribbon and contribute to the discussion as much as you want.........


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

admin
02-16-2014, 02:07 PM
This is the thread for in-depth discussion of whether the Adventurebilt Raider's Ribbon is THE ribbon used on film

bendingoak
02-16-2014, 10:34 PM
So your now saying that everyone can make up all kins of theories to debunk the AB/Penman ribbon in this thread but I can't defend it. If that's not a becon for a campaign against me I dbt know what is.


Admin Edit: The thread being referenced is: The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

bendingoak
02-16-2014, 10:37 PM
This thread has been patched together, completely out of context and missing a lot.

neutronbomb
02-17-2014, 12:33 AM
What do you want John?

neutronbomb
02-17-2014, 02:16 AM
Nothing has been deleted, edited, or lost.

bendingoak
02-17-2014, 04:53 PM
Yes they have. I can no longer post in a thread about my own product. Censorship at its finest. You also haven't posted all the insults , attacks and the bulling over the years by Kurt and company. You have patched together post from several threads in one, taken out other parts and left out the abuse over the years. That a clear picture. I suspected it before but now I'm pretty clear on what going on.

neutronbomb
02-17-2014, 05:27 PM
This is incorrect. Absolutely no posts have been deleted. Period. All posts at F&G regarding questioning your Raiders ribbon and your responses have been gathered in this one thread and placed in your vendor section in chronological order. This way every single person may easily find all "insults, attacks, and bullying" against you found here at F&G in this one thread.

Everyone is welcome to search the forum to see if I have missed anything.

Additionally, you and everyone else is welcome to post information and discussion about the ribbon used in the Raiders film in The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

Gunslinger
02-17-2014, 08:46 PM
It's good to hear you are all for preserving the original flow of information John. Because it would be disappointing we're someone to go back to their earlier posts and change what they said so as to make the other person look unreasonable, wouldn't it, John?

But it's ok now as NB has reduced the allowed edit time for both regular members and vendors, so no-one can distort who has been being reasonable after the fact. (Please make sure that includes me, NB).

Gunslinger
02-17-2014, 08:54 PM
I think NB's way of thinking (happy to be corrected) is that if anyone starts acting like a dick in a thread (including me), then it has no part in a decent polite analysis. Defence is fine and welcome, but slagging matches are not. So the slaggy bits are moved to another public thread so as to not mess up ones impression of the actual facts. Seems the most equitable way to deal with it to me.

djd
02-18-2014, 07:08 AM
I'm still bemused by what lab tests on the ribbon could prove (other than what it's made of)?
Without a piece of original Raiders ribbon to test against what can it prove? Someone help me out.
Twenty five years in criminal investigation, I understand evidence as well as anyone. My first wife was a forensic scientist who specialised in fibres (Oh and blood splatter), so I have an idea about that too.

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 07:44 PM
so Kurt, You can't take Theexit148 photo's or anyones else but you think Steel and Jones felt is the closest match but can't show it?????? again. selective speculation and I now know why you are making this push.

Admin Edit: thread referenced is The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

Gunslinger
02-20-2014, 07:51 PM
Oh do you now? All of that information I just posted addressing Mac's questions and TheExit's photo and that's what you choose to single out? Oh please. Let's stick to the facts John; its just lame. Stop trying to rebutt actual demonstrated facts and analysis with slimy accusations. Steel & Jones is 100% irrelevant here, as is any ABD, AB, JP, Akubra, etc. etc. Thats my point. I just used that example as it was the body in my hand when I made that observation about a year ago.

Admin Edit: The thread referenced is The Raiders Fedora Ribbon Discussion Thread (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2273-The-Raiders-Fedora-Ribbon-Discussion-Thread)

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 10:32 PM
Again nothing you are showing is fact, It's speculation. Stop calling it that.

bendingoak
02-20-2014, 10:39 PM
I'm still bemused by what lab tests on the ribbon could prove (other than what it's made of)?
Without a piece of original Raiders ribbon to test against what can it prove? Someone help me out.
Twenty five years in criminal investigation, I understand evidence as well as anyone. My first wife was a forensic scientist who specialised in fibres (Oh and blood splatter), so I have an idea about that too.

DJD, try an not separate what all I'm saying. I'm not riding on just labs results. I have paper trails, receipts , lab results, etc, etc. I can't speak more of it because if I did it would lead right to the source.

It's very clear to me now what's going on, my post are being buried in my section and out of the main section. This way the owners of this site Kurt and company can debunk the ribbon so they can promote there own friends.

neutronbomb
02-20-2014, 10:53 PM
No. We do not do that here at F&G. Speaking of promoting friends and vendors. How many free AB's have gone to those who run COW while apparently many have not received theirs that they paid for.

While threads get placed in their appropriate section, we would be willing to make an exception for you. If you would like this thread can be stickied in the fedora section alongside the ribbon discussion thread.

Gunslinger
02-21-2014, 04:42 AM
Again nothing you are showing is fact, It's speculation. Stop calling it that.

I own a Herbert Johnson. Fact.
Lenses and filters create certain effects. Fact.
Kind of bored with writing more.
Indy_dead_horse

"...why you are making this push.."
- Now THAT'S speculation.
:crazy:

Gunslinger
02-21-2014, 08:56 AM
...the owners of this site Kurt and company...

Wrong. Now we know who is happy to state speculation as fact.

Nice try champ. Thanks for playin'.

bendingoak
02-21-2014, 09:47 PM
Wrong. Now we know who is happy to state speculation as fact.

Nice try champ. Thanks for playin'.



Then who owns this site?

neutronbomb
02-21-2014, 10:18 PM
How-it-Works (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/1688-How-it-Works)

I think it's Abner :drink:

bendingoak
02-21-2014, 10:33 PM
Just what I thought. The same BS you accused COW of you guys are doing. Congratulation.

neutronbomb
02-21-2014, 10:56 PM
I have a quick story to tell you John. I was at McDonald's about four days ago. I was getting a straw and someone said where did you get that fedora. I looked over and it was a young guy with the Mark seven gas mask bag. It was the only piece of gear that he had. So I sat down and talked to him for a bit. We compared bags but he really wanted know about the Fedora. I was wearing Diego's because it's the only one that fits me perfectly right now. We talked for about 30 minutes about all the gear and the history of the gear and where he could find all the gear.

I also told him if he wanted the best highest quality craftsmanship Indy fedora on the planet that he should talk to John Penman and I gave him your website. So you see John, even though you're an arrogant, paranoid delusional, low IQ, asshole with piss poor reading and writing skills..... I still pimp your products.

I'll repeat it once more so even a stupid person can understand. We don't do that here at fortune and glory. What is it exactly that you want John?

RCSignals
02-22-2014, 12:42 AM
I thought it was well known by now who owns this joint

RCSignals
02-22-2014, 12:43 AM
" Abner ". That's pretty funny

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 01:08 AM
DJD... I'm not riding on just labs results. I have paper trails, receipts, lab results, etc, etc.

I'm really not sure how these things can "prove" the ribbon that you sell is the ribbon from Raiders in particular. If that is your claim, surely you can explain what the documents are and how they make those connections without revealing specific links in the supply chain or business names?

djd
02-22-2014, 07:12 AM
That was kind of my point... A lab test has to be a test against some sort of comparator, either a sample or a known set of data. Unless you have one of those all it can do is tell you the characteristics of your ribbon.

bendingoak
02-22-2014, 07:59 PM
That was kind of my point... A lab test has to be a test against some sort of comparator, either a sample or a known set of data. Unless you have one of those all it can do is tell you the characteristics of your ribbon.


DJD, I think you need to read some of my posts again.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm really not sure how these things can "prove" the ribbon that you sell is the ribbon from Raiders in particular. If that is your claim, surely you can explain what the documents are and how they make those connections without revealing specific links in the supply chain or business names?



Not that I want to answer you but answer me this? why would the owner of the DESI hat not show the inside of the hat IE: sweatband or liner? he has his reason but you take his word without question. I not talking about the contents of what I have so it doesn't lead people thinking in a certain way, which would lead them to the source.


I find it funny that you still want me to answer your question after being a complete jerk to me, after attacking me, insulting me. Your some kind of class act.

Gunslinger
02-22-2014, 09:41 PM
I find it funny that you still want me to answer your question after being a complete jerk to me, after attacking me, insulting me. Your some kind of class act.
What you still don't get is that I am only posing these questions to help a) the gear community, and b) yourself. Yet it's funny how your own arrogant, "thou shalt not question me nor me friends" obtuse jerkiness is invisible to yourself. Despite this, I'm actually going to use my own time to explain something to you that may help you understand.


Not that I want to answer you but answer me this? why would the owner of the DESI hat not show the inside of the hat IE: sweatband or liner? he has his reason but you take his word without question. I not talking about the contents of what I have so it doesn't lead people thinking in a certain way, which would lead them to the source.

I am assuming by "owner of the DESI hat", you mean... Desi. The former owner of the "Screen Used" Raiders hat.

First, let me say I have spoken to Desi myself regarding aspects of his Raiders hat a couple of years ago re the sweatband amongst other things. Second, I was participating in the thread with you and Desi when what you're talking about took place. You KNOW his reasoning because he explained it to you. He wouldn't give you the details you wanted because he didn't want anyone with hatmaking ability knowing things that they could then replicate. In turn, that would lead to fake ToD or Raiders hats coming onto the market of screen used items. It would also have the potential to devalue the item he has sold a client, his own inventory, etc. So the bottom line is that he has to hold back something of each prop so that people can't replicate it. It's a simple, obvious and basic security precaution that of course he would take.

Now, regarding his "word" - he doesn't really owe us anything, does he? We weren't in the market to buy either his Raiders or ToD hats, were we? But his clients were. And they get the documentation. The paper trail connecting what's in the inside of those hats through a chain of people to Desi. They get to see the whole thing before they whack down tens of thousands of dollars. The reality is that if he was ever fought out making things up or not triple-checking, he would face legal consequences. As I have said before (which I will repeat despite your obtuseness again), a bunch of these factors, plus actual observations I have made re Desi's hat make me certain that it's real. Any further bitching re this from you just flat out feels more like a whiny "but you gave my sister a lolly, why not me!?" hissy-fit than any sort of logical argument.

But putting that aside, here's the thing. Just as Desi has to make good on his claims of authenticity in his advertising of a prop for sale to his audience, so do you. The difference between Desi and you or anyone else selling multiple goods is that you're selling "the" ribbon - supposedly. That, as you yourself admit, gives your Raiders hat additional value. I'm not sure why you think this is unreasonable - it's as sure as hell isn't rocket science. But where you ARE the same is that you both owe each of your customers evidence of your claim.


I have another question for you, though, as most Indiana Jones hat buyers wouldn't have a big bag of ribbons to reference.

Why does the AB ribbon not match the feel/rigidity/thickness(?) and precise edging of ANY OTHER ribbon that I have found, be it from late 1940s to present day, on British hats, American hats, Australian hats, Polish hats, and multiple vintage hats ribbons from numerous time periods from Etsy?

bendingoak
02-25-2014, 05:03 AM
I don't know where you get off saying I said " thou shalt not question me" I never said such a thing. I said I have proof of what the ribbon is but I con not share it for obvious reason. Anyone can choose to believe me or not. I also said you can't use the Desi hat in any example because you are taking a person word on that it is in fact a screen used hat. If you can't take my word , you can't take his to debunk mine. It's just not logical.

As I stated many times. He had his reason not to show the inside of the hat. I'm ok with that, if I had the hat in hand I would have a better understanding why I wouldn't show it either. Just like I won't show my hand because of reason it would lead to the source.



again, I never said he owes anyone anything. I just said you can't use that hat for your argument because you don't have 100% proof that it is in fact a screen used hat.

if you stopped you single minded campaign for a moment and read my post you wouldn't have asked me the same question over and over.


Kurt, I don't believe a single word that comes out of your mouth. You have a agenda and that to help out your buddies and to debunk AB and Penman hats anyway you can. Just look how you have removed post out of the other thread, buried it here, come up with a elaborate story to debunk the ribbon.

I don't owe you or anyone else proof of anything. This is all to get your friends my ribbon.

one more thing, please stop pretending that you are a nice guy trying to do good for the community. You are nothing more then a bully who insults people and then tries to play nice. You are doing exactly what you accused COW of doing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Gunslinger
02-25-2014, 06:56 AM
Actually I didn't do jack re moving posts / threads.

Re your ribbon, the opposite is true. I think you've got it wrong, or whoever was responsible for it, rather. I actually can't for the life of me figure how that AB ribbon could be a clone of what was on the actual Raiders hat. To me, it seems like a bad, too-dark, too-thick / rigid knockoff of the ribbon that I think IS correct. I think the modern ribbon in the shots of the other thread is actually closer to the vibe of the actual ribbon.

I wouldn't advise anyone replicating the Raiders hat to use a ribbon of its colour, material, or rigidity, as IMO based on what I am able to deduce, it's just wrong in so many ways. If I were to help another hatter, I would send them the ribbons I have here.

Again, answer my question or not: Why does the AB ribbon not match the feel/rigidity/thickness(?) and precise edging of ANY OTHER ribbon that I have found, be it from late 1940s to present day, on British hats, American hats, Australian hats, Polish hats, and multiple vintage hats ribbons from numerous time periods from Etsy? To me, that seems more than a little odd.

bendingoak
02-26-2014, 01:51 PM
Why it doesn't match is because you are either never have seen a AB Indy ribbon or you are making shit up again. What you are describing is a modern ribbon with another content in it like cotton not pur rayon. Look at macs post in the other thread I can't post in. He even shows you how the edge angles like the raiders hat but that doesn't help out Kurt's agenda so Kurt doesn't address it or will come up with another photoshop camera bs to explain it again.

RusselJones
02-26-2014, 03:33 PM
Hello there! My Name is Dave and I'm new to this forum. I come from COW, because I think this is a place were you can speak freely. On COW it's sometimes difficult. I recently posted on COW regarding this ribbon, because I don't like how JP is dealing with this matter. He calls his ribbon the "only true" Indy ribbon, but does not want to or can not prove it. I've asked him several questions on COW, but most of them he did not answer. JP also posted in threads about other hatters work that he and AB are the only ones having access to the "only true" Indy ribbon, and I think that is not the way a vendor should behave.

I have compared the Penman/AB ribbon to a ribbon of a HJ Poet from 2013 (left AB/Penman ribbon, right Poets ribbon):

http://imageshack.com/a/img600/5410/fjlo.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img822/834/6ew7.jpg

I found it interesting that I could not see a difference in the structure or size, only a very small difference in the color hue. And I noticed the AB ribbon was a bit thicker. Here are just some thoughts:

Is it from the same manufacturer? I don't know. But if this is so, AB/Penman are not the only ones having access to it.

If it's not from the same manufacturer and if it is such a remarkable ribbon, why are AB/Penman the only hatters worldwide having access to this ribbon? What a ribbon manufacturer only has three customers? How can he survive this way?

I have done intesive researches in the last weeks in England trying to find this manufacturer. I have spoken to many hatters, ribbon manufacturers and Herbert Johnson. None of them had an idea. Must be a very, very small ribbon manufacturer.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, how does JP know it was also on every single hat in Temple or Crusade? I think it's very unlikely that every hat seen in the films had the same ribbon. And if that's true, AB / Penman are not the only ones offering true indy ribbon.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, why does no other hat from Herbert Johnson from this time period have such a ribbon?

I like the hats that JP makes, I just don't think his ribbon is the "only true" Indy ribbon. Just in case this question comes up: I am not Gunslinger and I don't know him. But I think Kurt is not that bad at all ;)

Gunslinger
02-26-2014, 08:31 PM
Why it doesn't match is because you are either never have seen a AB Indy ribbon or you are making shit up again. What you are describing is a modern ribbon with another content in it like cotton not pur rayon. Look at macs post in the other thread I can't post in. He even shows you how the edge angles like the raiders hat but that doesn't help out Kurt's agenda so Kurt doesn't address it or will come up with another photoshop camera bs to explain it again.

I love it how you always defend by attacking and accusing people of personal agendas and/or lying. I have Neutronbomb's ABD. I actually believe I did mention that it looked the same, only a mismatch in feel. But you are right in saying what a modern ribbon feels like - and this feels like a modern knockoff of an old ribbon, but just a really bad one. I was actually kind of shocked to find that, as last time I had it I my hands I hadn't had the experience of feeling so many other vintage ribbons. Most modern ribbons have flatter edge profile whereas the AB feels "lumpier". Like it's trying to replicate a vintage ribbon but the fibers are too thick or stiff or something.

Of course you accuse me of not having the ribbon now. Lame, dude. For starters, I do! And surely you know it by the photos. On top of that, you know how that wouldn't be an issue for you to make up? If you'd just sent me your ribbon, marked up BY YOU so both you and the other people reading this could be assured it was yours. But you wouldn't want that to happen, would you? Because your above argument is always your fallback. That I was faking things. Again, lame. But it's all you're able to say I suppose.

So what's your personal agenda / interest here John? Oh, that's right...

Btw, I don't recall anyone saying you can't post I the analysis thread, just that you need to stop acting like a dickhead while there.

Gunslinger
02-27-2014, 01:15 AM
you are making shit up again.

This accusing me of lying in a public forum ends now, John. I will not repeat this.

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 04:04 PM
This accusing me of lying in a public forum ends now, John. I will not repeat this.


You have been accusing me of lying all along. It's a one way street with you.

- - - Updated - - -


I love it how you always defend by attacking and accusing people of personal agendas and/or lying. I have Neutronbomb's ABD. I actually believe I did mention that it looked the same, only a mismatch in feel. But you are right in saying what a modern ribbon feels like - and this feels like a modern knockoff of an old ribbon, but just a really bad one. I was actually kind of shocked to find that, as last time I had it I my hands I hadn't had the experience of feeling so many other vintage ribbons. Most modern ribbons have flatter edge profile whereas the AB feels "lumpier". Like it's trying to replicate a vintage ribbon but the fibers are too thick or stiff or something.

Of course you accuse me of not having the ribbon now. Lame, dude. For starters, I do! And surely you know it by the photos. On top of that, you know how that wouldn't be an issue for you to make up? If you'd just sent me your ribbon, marked up BY YOU so both you and the other people reading this could be assured it was yours. But you wouldn't want that to happen, would you? Because your above argument is always your fallback. That I was faking things. Again, lame. But it's all you're able to say I suppose.

So what's your personal agenda / interest here John? Oh, that's right...

Btw, I don't recall anyone saying you can't post I the analysis thread, just that you need to stop acting like a dickhead while there.

I don't believe a word you are saying. even in fact you had a ABD once in your hands doesn't mean you have the right ribbon. both Steve and Narc used different ribbons before finding this ribbon.

WHy in the world would I send ribbon to you. when you attack me, insult me and call me names????

and yes My post keep getting bumped here from the other thread. You make it sound like it's a open forum but its not. Your doing exactly what you accused COW of doing.

- - - Updated - - -


Hello there! My Name is Dave and I'm new to this forum. I come from COW, because I think this is a place were you can speak freely. On COW it's sometimes difficult. I recently posted on COW regarding this ribbon, because I don't like how JP is dealing with this matter. He calls his ribbon the "only true" Indy ribbon, but does not want to or can not prove it. I've asked him several questions on COW, but most of them he did not answer. JP also posted in threads about other hatters work that he and AB are the only ones having access to the "only true" Indy ribbon, and I think that is not the way a vendor should behave.

I have compared the Penman/AB ribbon to a ribbon of a HJ Poet from 2013 (left AB/Penman ribbon, right Poets ribbon):

http://imageshack.com/a/img600/5410/fjlo.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img822/834/6ew7.jpg

I found it interesting that I could not see a difference in the structure or size, only a very small difference in the color hue. And I noticed the AB ribbon was a bit thicker. Here are just some thoughts:

Is it from the same manufacturer? I don't know. But if this is so, AB/Penman are not the only ones having access to it.

If it's not from the same manufacturer and if it is such a remarkable ribbon, why are AB/Penman the only hatters worldwide having access to this ribbon? What a ribbon manufacturer only has three customers? How can he survive this way?

I have done intesive researches in the last weeks in England trying to find this manufacturer. I have spoken to many hatters, ribbon manufacturers and Herbert Johnson. None of them had an idea. Must be a very, very small ribbon manufacturer.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, how does JP know it was also on every single hat in Temple or Crusade? I think it's very unlikely that every hat seen in the films had the same ribbon. And if that's true, AB / Penman are not the only ones offering true indy ribbon.

If this ribbon was used in Raiders, why does no other hat from Herbert Johnson from this time period have such a ribbon?

I like the hats that JP makes, I just don't think his ribbon is the "only true" Indy ribbon. Just in case this question comes up: I am not Gunslinger and I don't know him. But I think Kurt is not that bad at all ;)


I did answer any questions I could. I'm sorry your not happy with the answers.

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 04:15 PM
Russeljones, I find it strange that you would go out of your way to say you don't know Kurt???????

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 04:30 PM
russeljones. as for how I behave. I guess it's ok for the nice guy kurt to call me a dickhead? and thats just one example.

Gunslinger
02-28-2014, 09:41 PM
You have been accusing me of lying all along.

I just haven't. If you interpret me not taking your word of something and then looking for evidence to find out the answer to a mystery, then I don't know what to say. There's a difference.

I didn't call you a dickhead. I said that you are welcome to interact on the other thread as you don't act like a dickhead. There's a difference. If my 5 year old son is acting like a dick, I tell him to stop acting like a dick. Mates, the same. I don't know what you say to people you know in Oregon, but this is pretty much normal here.

Re the new "different ribbons" revelation, it still leaves the question of what the hell is this ribbon, where did it come from that it looks and feels like nothing in hat history that I have come across?

Surely someone out there in the membership has to have a Penman or AB ~and~ a decent SLR camera? Take some shots in full sun with some white paper and other background to provide a proper colour balance, upload the raw or net files to Skydrive or somewhere, and we can compare. (If you have a circular polariser that's a bonus)

bendingoak
02-28-2014, 11:06 PM
Hahahaha I love it. I got one guy saying that my ribbon is just like another and another saying it's nothing like anything he has seen. Wow! I want what you guys have been smoking.

bendingoak
03-08-2014, 02:31 AM
With all due respect to Kurt and John, both are actually proving each others point. The reason that photos or screen caps cannot verify what the real color was is that they are not an accurate representation of the actual hat (or jacket for that matter). At the same time Kurt is using photos to prove that very point indicating that the 'screen accurate' hats that we have been buying may be screen accurate according to the illusion of the image, but not to the real thing. Both gentlemen are right and I think everyone would agree that the hats available to us today are just what we have been looking for as far as 'screen accuracy' goes. I do feel though that fans are a particular bunch and when it comes to detail evidence is required...... Just my thoughts


You got it right. To think you can replicate what was on screen from a dvd or blu ray screen grab with ones own camera at home is absolutely crazy. This is Kurts way on attacking AB and myself and he's been doing it for years.

Gunslinger
03-08-2014, 03:13 AM
You got it right. To think you can replicate what was on screen from a dvd or blu ray screen grab with ones own camera at home is absolutely crazy. This is Kurts way on attacking AB and myself and he's been doing it for years.

John, as I have said before, I have no beef with you or AB other than your constant crapping on anyone that challenges what you think is correct and/or are making money from. And FYI, there ARE ways - I've provided plenty of them in this very thread - but you are just as willfully ignorant to them as you are to the processes used to make the films in the first place. I'm not.

I also note you're willfully not answering any questions about how auch a dark ribbon as yours can miraculously become lighter in the Hawaii shots. Or how the LC ribbon can do the same. (Because I suspect you can't.)

neutronbomb
03-09-2014, 01:27 AM
John, there are a number of statements that you are making that are incorrect and that you are presenting as factual. I have responded to those statements and corrected that misinformation throughout this thread. However, you appear to be ignoring this and continue to make purposefully false statements of fact. I cannot allow that to continue. Do you understand?

Below are quotes of statements you have made followed by my responses to clarify the misinformation your statements contain. We are all allowed to question and disagree and have different opinions and believe whatever we want. However, we cannot present as fact and continue to present as fact defamatory statements regarding members of this site or the site itself without proof. I am requesting that you familiarize yourself with the difference between making a statement of opinion vs a statement of fact. This is important. Do you understand?

An example of that difference would be to state as fact with no proof that a restaurant serves canned vegetables. "Restaurant XYZ serves canned vegetables to its diners. Don't eat there." Versus a statement of opinion. "I do not like the vegetables that restaurant XYZ serves. They taste tinny to me and I cannot recommend them to my friends."

I have pointed these differences out in your posts below to help you understand. Note: I am pointing out that you are making a statement of fact, or, that you are making a statement of opinion. Not that the statements themselves are actually true. Do you understand?



....Kurt, I don't believe a single word that comes out of your mouth [Statement of Opinion]. You have a agenda and that to help out your buddies and to debunk AB and Penman hats anyway you can [Statement of Fact]. Just look how you have removed post out of the other thread, buried it here, come up with a elaborate story to debunk the ribbon [Statement of Fact].

I don't owe you or anyone else proof of anything. This is all to get your friends my ribbon [Statement of Fact].

one more thing, please stop pretending that you are a nice guy trying to do good for the community. You are nothing more then a bully who insults people and then tries to play nice. You are doing exactly what you accused COW of doing. You should be ashamed of yourself [Statement of Opinion].


Why it doesn't match is because you are either never have seen a AB Indy ribbon or you are making shit up again [Statement of Fact]. What you are describing is a modern ribbon with another content in it like cotton not pur rayon. Look at macs post in the other thread I can't post in [Statement of Fact]. He even shows you how the edge angles like the raiders hat but that doesn't help out Kurt's agenda so Kurt doesn't address it or will come up with another photoshop camera bs to explain it again.


You have been accusing me of lying all along [Statement of Fact. Please provide proof you have been directly accused of lying regarding the information you have provided here on this site regarding your raiders ribbon]. It's a one way street with you.

I don't believe a word you are saying [Statement of opinion]. even in fact you had a ABD once in your hands doesn't mean you have the right ribbon [Statement of Opinion]. both Steve and Narc used different ribbons before finding this ribbon.

WHy in the world would I send ribbon to you. when you attack me, insult me and call me names????

and yes My post keep getting bumped here from the other thread. You make it sound like it's a open forum but its not. Your doing exactly what you accused COW of doing. [I see this as a Statement of Opinion]


Here are my responses John. Please read carefully.

1. I'm the sole admin and owner of this site. There was a time when it wasn't that way. But it is now. I need you to stop addressing to Kurt that he is directly responsible for moving your posts. He is not. I am. I move threads to the sections they belong and I move posts to the threads they belong in. I do this and I am soley responsible for making these calls. I don't know what your game is but I need you to stop posting misinformation about this. I cannot allow it to continue.


2. The posts in this thread do NOT belong in the other one. Since you complained about this all being "buried" way back here in your vendor section, which is where it goes, I offered to move it and sticky it next to the other thread. YOU chose not to respond to that offer.


3. The Raiders Ribbon Discussion thread is my thread. I started that thread. This is a fan website where we discuss the Indy films and what we SEE in them. The Raiders Ribbon Discussion thread is for members/fans to discuss the movie ribbon. It is not a conspiracy to get any other vendors the ribbon you and AB use for your Raiders fedora replicas. I did not start it for the sole purpose of debunking the ribbon you use in order to promote other vendors products over yours. If you continue to post over and over that this is indeed the case, then you are calling me a liar through a statement of fact and you had better have proof because it is untrue. We need to be clear on that John.


4. You are not reacting to any of this as a fan of the films nor can I remember you participating on the forum as a fan of the films. What you appear to me to be reacting like is someone who is a member here to only protect their business interests as a vendor. To yell and scream and pitch a fit and stomp your feet and throw around accusations. Apparently, in my view, anything to try and get a thread shut down or derailed to prevent any discussion about what we see on film (which is actually what a film fan site does) regarding an item that you make a claim about and use for a product that you sell. What you seem to be blithely unaware of is that these tactics do not work here. You should also notice, before accusing this site (owned and admined by me) of operating exactly like COW, is that we do allow discussion of what we see on film, we do allow members to have different opinions, we do allow members to question the products of all vendors, we do allow members to believe what they choose. We don't lock threads. We don't delete threads. We don't ban members for simply saying things we don't like. This site and myself do NOT ever under any circumstances ask for freebies or discounts from our vendors.

From my personal perspective John, your reactions to the Raiders discussion thread indicate that you suffer from some type of paranoid medical condition or that you are completely frightened that something is going to be uncovered. In my opinion it makes me think you are trying to hide something like you know the ribbon you use isn't THE ribbon used on the Raiders film fedora, but you promote that it is so that you can make money off it. Which is completely different than thinking, "hey maybe John got it wrong." Through your own responses you are making it look like you are trying to cover something up and trying desperately to stop it from being discovered or discussed by throwing totally unwarranted accusations around. Personally, I'd just have said, "have fun guys. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that we use THE ribbon used on the Raiders film fedoras. I've done my own research on this. I can't share it because it's a trade secret. Let me know when you guys are ready to order a hat."


5. "Why it doesn't match is because you are either never have seen a AB Indy ribbon or you are making shit up again. What you are describing is a modern ribbon with another content in it like cotton not pur rayon."

This is incorrect. Kurt is not making it up so stop calling him a liar and stating as a fact without proof that he is lying and does not have the ribbon. He has in fact seen and handled an AB Indy ribbon because I have sent him my Marc Kitter AB Deluxe Raiders fedora twice. Once quite some time ago for a reblock because Marc was unavailable and again a couple of weeks ago in part because of Mac's suggestion. It gets reblocked and Kurt has access to the ribbon to photograph. If you continue to insist that this is not the case, then again you are calling me a liar through a statement of fact and you had better have proof because it is untrue Once more, we need to be clear on this.

What is interesting is that both you and Marc and Steve have described how difficult and different it is to handle an AB raiders ribbon. Marc described this to me over the phone when he called me to check in on the fedora when he first shipped it to me. You have stated that the difficulty lies with it being 100% rayon made like they made them 60-70 years ago and that modern ribbon is easier to work with. See your quote below. However, when Kurt said basically he had the exact same experience in handling the ribbon (The AB ribbon that I sent him). That it was difficult, etc., you said it was because it was a modern ribbon that is not 100% rayon. "What you are describing is a modern ribbon with another content in it like cotton not pur rayon." These statements appear to be contradictory to me John. And then, when you falsely accuse Kurt of lying to you about not having an AB raiders ribbon it makes it seem like you are aware of this contradiction and the only thing you could think of to do about it is to then make statements of fact which are untrue that what Kurt has is not the AB raiders ribbon. Do you understand this John?

Also, note in your quote below that you discuss how modern ribbon can reflect a purple tone to them and that yours and the film ribbon (you present them as one and the same) do not do this. However, as has been shown, different types of film screen caps and behind the scenes and promotional photographs, do shown the Raiders fedora ribbon with a purple sheen. Again, this and your statements regarding it seems to be contradictory to me.



I had this ribbon sent to two different modern ribbon makers to see if it can be replicated. It can't by any modern ribbon maker. Why? One about 60-70 years ago the ribbon making process changed. They added other materials to rayon to cut cost and there was a start of updating machines that spins the material to make ribbon. They had to add a percentage of more material to do so that's why otton was mainly added. The pattern had to be made wider( or what people call the ridges) . This makes a difference on how light reflects onto the ribbon. That's how you see a lot of dark brown modern ribbon reflect with a purple under tone to them in some light. The ribbon isn't purple. It's the same dark brown color as the Indy ribbon but since the pattern and the material isn't the same it reflects light differently.

Neither one of these modern makers could replicate it and they came back with the same report. I also sent two different true high quality vintage ribbons to have tested with the Indy ribbon. They came back with the same results. So what we have here is someone making ribbon like they used to. In essenes high quality vintage ribbon. Ribbon like the vintage ribbon that most high end hatters kill for.

Personally it's a lot easier to work with modern ribbon. Most being rayon/cotton blends where this is pure rayon. They react differently to hear and water.

The reason I had it tested is that I wanted the facts behind the ribbon and to see if I can cut the cost of ribbon for me. This stuff is $18 dollars a yard. Most moder ribbon (grosgrain) of any decent quality can cost as low as 67 cents a yard but never much more then a $1.

So in a way. It isn't so special when ribbon was commonly made this way but now that ribbon is made differently it has become very special. We have a bit of the past still availible and a bit of Indy history. I would think that means something.



6. I have 82 emails from Marc Kitter regarding my AB Deluxe order that span from January 2009 through February 2010. Here is an example of one:

On Jan 11, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Marc Kitter <marc_kitter@web.de> wrote:

Dear Bryan,

just finished adding your sweatband J

Here’s a little teaser [photo provided at the end of this post]. Although difficult to really see the thread itself, you’ll be able to see that it looks like one continues line J

Now off to the ribbon!

Kind regards,

Marc



Another:

On Jan 11, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Marc Kitter <marc_kitter@web.de> wrote:

Hey Bryan,

here’s a detail shot of the hand sewn in liner [photo provided at the end of this post]. As far as I know, I’m the only hatter worldwide who goes to such extends with the liner. Not touting my own horn, just telling you what you get – that’s all.

Ok, first of all I take a liner that matches the size of the crown. Since I get all liners oversized in height, I then measure how much the liner is too tall to match the crown perfectly. Then, I mark the liner on the back side with a ruler and cut off what needs to go with a pair of scissors, before I start to sew it in. Hence it takes a little longer but I think it’s worth it.

Best to you,

Marc


His last one before shipping me the hat. Notice how brief the message is. Nothing else needed to be said. Notice John, how easily observed and obvious it is that Marc used the AB raiders ribbon. The photos he provided of the finished fedora as part of this email are included at the end of this post:

On Jan 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Marc Kitter <marc_kitter@web.de> wrote:

Kind regards, [photos provided at the end of this post]

Marc


And then my response and then his:

Von: Bryan Biggs
Gesendet: Montag, 11. Januar 2010 20:07
An: Marc Kitter
Betreff: Re: Got you covered

I have tears. No lie. Thank you Marc. Thank you.

bryan

_____________________________________________

On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Marc Kitter <marc_kitter@web.de> wrote:

ABSOLUTELY my pleasure Bryan! You’ve been MORE than kind to deal with!

Please let me know how to insure it and I’ll get it on its way tomorrow for you, followed by the tracking-no.

Kind regards,

Marc



Here's another that I sent Marc after I received the hat. Once again, easily observable that the ribbon is the AB raiders ribbon:

Von: Bryan Biggs
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2010 04:47
An: Marc Kitter
Betreff: Photos of my new hat

Hi Marc,

First of all, please let me know when you are doing another order of boots. I would like to get another pair. This is important so let me know the time frame you are looking at and when you are getting ready to submit the order so I can put in for another pair.

I received everything perfectly. Boots are fantastic. The color, quality, feel. Everything exceeds what I expected. Thank you!!

Please see the link below for pictures of my hat and a video of it in action. [I have added photos to this link of the fedora Marc sent me when he was making it].

http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/library/My%20ROTLA%20Hat

Thank you Marc! My very best to your family and you,

bryan


You want to hear a sad story. When the fedora arrived it was completely unbashed. The vibration from shipping completely and utterly knocked all bashing out of the hat. It had absolutely ZERO memory in the felt. I never got to actually have the hat with the beautiful bashing that Marc did. You want to hear more sad story. It just happening to be raining when the fedora arrived. I quickly bashed it the best I could which would be the equivalent of giving it to a toddler to give it a go as it was the first fedora I had ever owned in my life or held in my hands. Looking back at that bashing attempt makes me want to vomit. You want to hear even more sad story. I was so excited to have this awesome beaver felt tough as nails fedora that right after I shoved some dents and a pinch in it that I ran out and pranced around in the rain thus completing ruining and eliminating all the SOC makeup distressing that Marc spent so much time on. In all the excitement, neither Marc nor myself ever thought about that I might be naive enough to do such a stupid thing. And then, do you want to hear even the saddest story yet. For some unknown reason to myself the hat tapered. I could not get ahold of Marc at the time and decided to have it reblocked by someone else. Kurt was available at the time and you John, had made a statement around that time period that you were not reblocking other hat makers hats. Here is the thread on fortune and glory where I discuss all this and as you can easily see, yes there it is wearing the AB raiders ribbon.http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/299-neutronbomb-Adventurebilt-Deluxe-%28ABD%29-Hawaii-Hat. And do you want to hear more sad news. Over the last few years, it has retapered. But guess what the good news is John. It is still after all this time near and dear to my heart. AND....it is still wearing the AB raiders ribbon.

7. John, I personally fedexed the hat to Gunslinger (Kurt), soon after Mac suggested to do so in order to get Kurt access to the AB raiders ribbon and to get the fedora reblocked. So now it is back in Kurt's hands for yet another reblock and the photos he has been posting in the ribbon discussion thread of the AB raiders ribbon is of that ribbon. Because you see John, I sent it to him. If you continue to state that he does not have the AB raiders ribbon to examine and photograph, then you are making a statement of fact that I am lying and you had better have proof because it is untrue. Because I do have proof that I shipped the hat to Kurt. Is this clear John?


Here are the photos mentioned in the emails above from Marc Kitter and myself regarding the AB Deluxe Raiders Streets of Cairo fedora he made for me.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter01_zps540339db.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter01_zps540339db.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter02_zps24ecf4bd.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter02_zps24ecf4bd.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter03_zps61b359ba.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter03_zps61b359ba.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter05_zps2685d9e1.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter05_zps2685d9e1.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter06_zps4f4344c1.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter06_zps4f4344c1.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter07_zps06f12f2c.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter07_zps06f12f2c.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter08_zpsdae89a5e.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter08_zpsdae89a5e.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter04_zps05dbb521.jpg~original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/My%20ROTLA%20Hat/MarcKitter04_zps05dbb521.jpg.html)

bendingoak
03-10-2014, 03:01 AM
I'm so glad that Kurt special treatment from you. He can insult people, call them names and nothing is ever done. He has gone out of his way for years to do this to Steve and myself for years. I know that doesn't matter to you because he's part of this forum. I never said you can't talk about the Indy movies or the ribbon. I have repeatedly said you can't call it "fact" or as "proof" it's just speculation. How come you don't quote that with my other statements? I also had said that I do have proof about the ribbon in addition to what Steve and Marc knew but couldn't share them with everyone for obvious reasons. Again that all I ever stated until Kurt started insulting me. You guys didn't want that in the other thread so you guys bumped it here. I keep repeating it because Kurt's consistent attack and that's what he has done for years. even in your explanation you insult me. You say Kurt has no control here but why do you use his words that he has stated to me in a Pm? You wonder why I have my doubts about you and Kurt. Why I don't trust either of you.


Again, show me where I stated that you can't talk about anything? I have only stated that photos and screen grabs can't be used as fact or proof. Try using the words theory.

Gunslinger
03-10-2014, 03:54 AM
I'm not sure what you are on about re PM's? That I may have mentioned my point of view to NB in a consistent way that I mentioned it to you? Wouldn't that be logical? That I was actually just honest in the way I represent my viewpoint to those around me? Because it sounds like you're inferring that I've shared our PRIVATE correspondence, which I have NOT.

It's just really funny what you paint as an "attack" that lasts "years", John. From my point of view, I've been defending myself against your passive agressiveness for years, simply by calling you on it when it happens. Then of course, a perfectly civilised thread turns to crap. Just as we have seen here, over NB posting a query about a freaking ribbon and me daring to have a few thoughts about it. It turns into a big deal where NB has to go in and clean up all this crap. So you have a great little way of getting your own way no matter whether people try to take the high ground or not. Either your comment stands, or the original point gets lost. Neither are ok if this is meant to be a FORUM.

bendingoak
03-10-2014, 04:30 AM
How am I getting my way? You can insult me, call me names? I can't say a would or I'm accused of all kinds of stuff. I have never attacked you only defended myself.

bendingoak
03-10-2014, 04:51 AM
Look how things broke down. After extending my hand to you last time we were at odds. This thread is started. I came in and simply stated I wish I could share my information but I can't. Then I stated you can't use photos comparison as fact or proof. That's it. I never said you couldn't talk about it or have the thread. You keep on with your point of view as fact. Over and over all I ever stated is that. You insult and call me names. That's when things got ugly. I can't give my point of view without being bumped here and accused of mental illness. Tell me that's not a insult or a attack? You can take things out of context and make all the statements you want it doesn't make it so.


LAst time we agreed to be more considerate to each other? Where were you being considerate to me?

Gunslinger
03-10-2014, 07:49 PM
You are again distorting the way it went down.

I will say it again as I have done so multiple times above, let's just stick to the discussion. You will notice Mac is arguing the shit out of this at me but doing it in a mutually respectful way.

I am very happy to do that without any accusing me or others of fabricating evidence, lying, not having an AB ribbon, having an agenda, faking stuff with Photoshop, that images or the films themselves can't show us anything, etc etc.

Fair enough?

neutronbomb
03-10-2014, 08:53 PM
John, what is your point of view regarding:

1. The raiders film ribbon discussion thread:

Your welcome to share your point of view on the film ribbon in that thread and have been allowed to do so to date. All your point of view regarding that discussion so far that I can determine is that you do not believe that photos or what we see on film can be used to determine or prove anything. Is there more to your point of view regarding the film raiders ribbon than that? Because you've shared that point of view repeatedly in that thread and been allowed to.

2. Defending the penman and AB ribbon thread.

Your welcome to share your point of view on defending yourself personally and your raiders ribbon and have been allowed to. From what I can determine, your point of view is that you believe there is a direct conspiracy to discredit yourself personally and your raiders ribbon in order to either get your ribbon into the hands of other favored vendors (which makes no sense because why would this be desirable if it is discredited) or to promote other favored vendors products over yours through discrediting the raiders ribbon you use and yourself through personal attacks, insults, and conspiring with others. Is there more to your point of view of defending yourself and your raiders ribbon than that? Because you've shared that point of view repeatedly in this thread and been allowed to.


I feel that you perceive disagreement with your point of views as unacceptable and I believe that is unreasonable. However, I do allow you to give voice to your point of views just like everyone else is allowed to give voice to their point of views. As long as they are presented as an opinion and not a fact without proof. As I stated before, saying that you believe and think people are out to get you is fine and you have the right to think that if you insist on doing so. To state it as fact is not fine. I know you believe it is a fact based on your interpretation of events and posts and that you have no doubts that the conclusions you have drawn are correct and thus factual. However, drawn conclusions and interpretations are still opinions no matter how strongly you feel about them and I can't allow you to present them as facts without proof.


I don't think you read my previous post carefully. I addressed and responded to statements you have made in this thread. I even included those statements and quotes as part of the post. My responses were to your claims and statements that you made here. Did you not see this somehow.

bendingoak
03-11-2014, 10:42 PM
You are again distorting the way it went down.

I will say it again as I have done so multiple times above, let's just stick to the discussion. You will notice Mac is arguing the shit out of this at me but doing it in a mutually respectful way.

I am very happy to do that without any accusing me or others of fabricating evidence, lying, not having an AB ribbon, having an agenda, faking stuff with Photoshop, that images or the films themselves can't show us anything, etc etc.

Fair enough?

you did not insult Mac or call him names but you have done that more then once with me. So you can call names in insult. You can say I'm lying about the ribbon but I'm not aloud to defend that or to call you out on it.

bendingoak
03-11-2014, 10:47 PM
John, what is your point of view regarding:

1. The raiders film ribbon discussion thread:

Your welcome to share your point of view on the film ribbon in that thread and have been allowed to do so to date. All your point of view regarding that discussion so far that I can determine is that you do not believe that photos or what we see on film can be used to determine or prove anything. Is there more to your point of view regarding the film raiders ribbon than that? Because you've shared that point of view repeatedly in that thread and been allowed to.

2. Defending the penman and AB ribbon thread.

Your welcome to share your point of view on defending yourself personally and your raiders ribbon and have been allowed to. From what I can determine, your point of view is that you believe there is a direct conspiracy to discredit yourself personally and your raiders ribbon in order to either get your ribbon into the hands of other favored vendors (which makes no sense because why would this be desirable if it is discredited) or to promote other favored vendors products over yours through discrediting the raiders ribbon you use and yourself through personal attacks, insults, and conspiring with others. Is there more to your point of view of defending yourself and your raiders ribbon than that? Because you've shared that point of view repeatedly in this thread and been allowed to.


I feel that you perceive disagreement with your point of views as unacceptable and I believe that is unreasonable. However, I do allow you to give voice to your point of views just like everyone else is allowed to give voice to their point of views. As long as they are presented as an opinion and not a fact without proof. As I stated before, saying that you believe and think people are out to get you is fine and you have the right to think that if you insist on doing so. To state it as fact is not fine. I know you believe it is a fact based on your interpretation of events and posts and that you have no doubts that the conclusions you have drawn are correct and thus factual. However, drawn conclusions and interpretations are still opinions no matter how strongly you feel about them and I can't allow you to present them as facts without proof.


I don't think you read my previous post carefully. I addressed and responded to statements you have made in this thread. I even included those statements and quotes as part of the post. My responses were to your claims and statements that you made here. Did you not see this somehow.


I don't have a problem with your other thread but if I can't use the word FACT, neither can anyone else. I am done. There really is no point to me responding anymore because it will be pull apart, taken out of context, and parts removed. You will continue to let someone insult me and nothing is said about that.

Gunslinger
03-12-2014, 07:16 AM
You can say I'm lying about the ribbon but I'm not aloud to defend that or to call you out on it.

I never said you were lying about the ribbon. This is why I end up giving you stick. Because you have a ~really bad~ habit of making shit up and it becomes annoying. Yet you don't seem able to see that YOU are effectively lying by saying these things. Again, I direct you to NB's post above about statements of fact, etc.

neutronbomb
03-12-2014, 03:02 PM
I'm really sorry you feel that way John.

TheExit148
04-01-2014, 05:33 PM
John, I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but do you know if Garrison's Hatters uses the same ribbon as AB and Penman hats? I know Steve helped him out a lot, so I thought maybe he mentioned he uses it?

Mac
04-01-2014, 06:33 PM
Mr. Garrison has stated that he uses an American manufactured rayon/cotton blend ribbon which he has custom dyed to match the color of the dark brown HJ/AB/Penman ribbon. As I recall, he had to commission a run of several thousand yards of ribbon in order for the manufacturer to do a custom color.

Garrison’s ribbon matches the color of the HJ/AB ribbon very well, but the characteristics of it regarding light reflection and color in certain lighting conditions differs somewhat from that of the HJ/AB ribbon. It seem to me to have a more apparent sheen.

Indiego Jones
02-19-2015, 04:28 PM
ADMIN NOTE: if this post belong to a different thread, split create a new thread.


I'd like to give a different approach to this ribbon discussion.
And focus on the assertion about having the true RAIDERS ribbon.

Some of the story:

Supposedly, by chance, Marc Kitter (AB dlx) found the original factory, that still produces the very same ribbon, with the same recipe in terms of materials and production method.
The very same way as in 1980. And, according to them, that factory was the supplier of the ribbon on the Raiders hats.


The next are posts from COW forum:

Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 14:02
http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550104#p550104


I'm just curious, Fedora, not questioning anyone's word or anything, but how do you guys KNOW that your ribbon is THE Raiders ribbon? It seems to me, reading all that I have on the forum archives, that no one to this day can say with 100% certainty exactly where the hat's felt came from, where the block that was used resides, or even exactly how it was made (slightly tweaked factory hat, or bespoke hat)! So how is it that we know exactly who made the ribbon? Again, not questioning anyone's veracity, just puzzled how that one thing could be known when just about everything else about the hat seems still shrouded in so much mystery...

Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 16:28
http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550171#p550171



Lemme answer this one.

When the manufacturer send a sample to me, he didn't know which width I was looking for. All he had hear from another supplier, is that I was DESPERATELY trying to source some super dark brown ribbon. So he send some 25mm ribbon to me with a note that he had heard about my search and if this would please me. When I opened the envelope with the sample, it looked plain black to me (just as the Raiders ribbon in certain scenes), but when compared directly to black ribbon, one could see that it's dark brown. It kinda changed color with different light conditions - something I had always assumed was due to the various hats used in Raiders, rather then this particular ribbon that does it by itself. So, while my jaw was still on the floor, I called the guy up to ask if they have it in 38mm as well. Answer: yes, how much would you like?! I told him that I'd get back to him, and then I rang up Steve 7:00am to scream into the phone that I had found the maker of the original Raiders ribbon. Now, if you know Steve, you'll know that he's not quite himself, before he had his coffee, but THIS made him awake within a fraqution of a second :lol:

So, we both ordered two rolls and the waiting began. It looked SPOT ON! Both compared to what we saw on screen as well as what we saw on vintage HJs. To us there was no question that this is IT.

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc

1) According to this, the "confirmation" on the original source it's a Marc's deduction. Not a solid proof.

2) Then, another possible confirmation came from Bernie Pollack during the fedora search for CS. By the phone, inquired about the color of the ribbon AB use. We know Bernie was after a LC kind of fedora (for continuity issues).
So, most likely, Bernie had a LC screen-used fedora in hand when talked to Marc.
And we know the LC ribbon is very different from the Raiders one.


As an Indy fan, I'd like to know which were the basis where the assertion about having the true RAIDERS ribbon stands.-

neutronbomb
02-19-2015, 05:45 PM
I'll check and see about if this is the best spot for it. I think it is though. I'm very busy through til next week, but definitely want to continue this discussion.

neutronbomb
02-24-2015, 12:19 AM
I might have come across the ribbon we've been talking about. Maybe someone else has already discussed this. Can't remember. I'm trying to get to the airport and catch a flight from San Francisco and won't have a chance to analyze the photos and do compares until tomorrow or Wednesday, but I'll upload the photos I took if I can while I wait to board so you guys can check them out. It was on a Stetson fedora in a hat shop. I saw it immediately from across the shop. I pulled this thread up real quick and checked out the compares Mac posted against the ribbon in the shop. It looked exactly the same including the lighter tones on the edges. I snapped some quick and dirty pics. Color isnt so good in the photos compared to the naked eye and it was under fluorescent lights to boot, but it's all I had time to do. The owner off the cuff said he believes Stetson gets their ribbon from Italy. Probably worthless info. But I wouldn't know and how would he anyway. Oh, and the ribbon is obviously wider too.

neutronbomb
02-24-2015, 12:37 AM
Ok. Here are the photos. Edit: yeah I know. My copy and pasting of the links/images from photobucket are screwed up. I'll fix later.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/B42F706F-77F8-4D84-B690-BA74CAFD1DB7_zpspymjvhzg.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/BF182205-C59C-48CD-9DCA-2C4A9BD3EBC2_zpsmab7gbxd.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/41909F25-D1F0-46A5-8BC0-D75745A6063A_zpsvuowh6eh.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/A2EA6D1D-28C2-466A-8C58-8897B2A96944_zpsrhlrtajy.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/5C73AAF4-2F27-4728-8F41-67F424E8A1B6_zpscu6oxl5i.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/CAE8723C-686C-42F6-BC2B-509B5E5EABCB_zpsvzj8t2mt.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/28A17C5A-EA37-453D-904F-21432F9D5C73_zpsl5la03bt.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/686FC47D-6667-4ECB-BF79-C0AA9FBDB5A6_zpszloch6wc.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/02F18D83-819B-426C-87EC-E9B98E1BEF5A_zpsdjokkedz.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/753044B9-F52E-4B23-8E59-E2654CEAF440_zps5y6xyoif.jpg~original

indydude18
02-24-2015, 02:33 AM
Interesting to see similar Raiders ribbon on a modern hat

Indiego Jones
02-24-2015, 04:21 PM
The pictures show a very similar AB kind of ribbon.
I guess some other hat brands can use the very same ribbon.

But, I've never saw one hat from late 70's, or close to the Raiders era, with that kind of ribbon.
Not even close.-

Gunslinger
02-25-2015, 08:12 PM
Wow. So the ~cough~ "special" ribbon is on the most mass produced brand of hats in the world; yet still doesn't match what we see in Raiders or any hat that any fan has come across that was produced by any hat maker in the Raiders era, or before. Interesting.

bendingoak
02-25-2015, 09:35 PM
hahahahahahahaha you guys are so funny. Stetson doesn't use our ribbon and doesn't come from Italy. Nice try.

- - - Updated - - -


ADMIN NOTE: if this post belong to a different thread, split create a new thread.


I'd like to give a different approach to this ribbon discussion.
And focus on the assertion about having the true RAIDERS ribbon.

Some of the story:

Supposedly, by chance, Marc Kitter (AB dlx) found the original factory, that still produces the very same ribbon, with the same recipe in terms of materials and production method.
The very same way as in 1980. And, according to them, that factory was the supplier of the ribbon on the Raiders hats.


The next are posts from COW forum:

Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 14:02
http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550104#p550104


Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 16:28
http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=550171#p550171


1) According to this, the "confirmation" on the original source it's a Marc's deduction. Not a solid proof.

2) Then, another possible confirmation came from Bernie Pollack during the fedora search for CS. By the phone, inquired about the color of the ribbon AB use. We know Bernie was after a LC kind of fedora (for continuity issues).
So, most likely, Bernie had a LC screen-used fedora in hand when talked to Marc.
And we know the LC ribbon is very different from the Raiders one.


As an Indy fan, I'd like to know which were the basis where the assertion about having the true RAIDERS ribbon stands.-


This is only part and the start of it, not the entire thing.

- - - Updated - - -

like stated before and even by indigo jones himself. photo's can't prove or disapprove anything. It isn't reliable.

bendingoak
02-25-2015, 09:38 PM
Anyone reading this. Ask yourself why is one vendor/hat maker challenging anothe vendor/hat makers product?

Indiego Jones
02-26-2015, 12:28 PM
Anyone reading this. Ask yourself why is one vendor/hat maker challenging anothe vendor/hat makers product?

Simple to answer:
because PRIOR to be a vendor, I'm a FAN.

And I get tired of being fooled.

What AB did years ago was a very good "product positioning" move.
They just found a good ribbon, ordered in the very dark brown color everyone see on the screen, and give everyone the story all wanted to hear: the found ribbon was THE ONE.
Congratulations for that.

Too bad Marc or Steve are not participating in this threads.
And you put yourself in the position of defending the whole thing.
You weren't part of it then. You just received a closed deal.

I'm not questioning you, I'm questioning those who fabricated the entire plot.
The story is fascinating.
I can see everybody got convinced with the story, me too.
And of course, you too.-

bendingoak
02-26-2015, 05:18 PM
Simple to answer:
because PRIOR to be a vendor, I'm a FAN.

And I get tired of being fooled.

What AB did years ago was a very good "product positioning" move.
They just found a good ribbon, ordered in the very dark brown color everyone see on the screen, and give everyone the story all wanted to hear: the found ribbon was THE ONE.
Congratulations for that.

Too bad Marc or Steve are not participating in this threads.
And you put yourself in the position of defending the whole thing.
You weren't part of it then. You just received a closed deal.

I'm not questioning you, I'm questioning those who fabricated the entire plot.
The story is fascinating.
I can see everybody got convinced with the story, me too.
And of course, you too.-


Nice move but no. You already know what I'm about to say next because I already told you. I did my own research and found out way more then they did. What you have copied here in your earlier post and what you found on COW is just a tiny part of the begining of the story.

As a fan I want to share everything with all the other fans but as a professional I have to safe guard our source. You don't have to believe me. It's up to the customer to make up their own mine. I just wish for a little professional curtesy from other vendors/hat makers.

I do find that you were 99% sure it was the ribbon when we were working together to get you better ribbon but now your 100% sure it isn't. 199% swing. Not sure I can trust your thought process.

bendingoak
02-26-2015, 05:27 PM
today is they sourced top quality material, with top notch craftsmenship along with raising the bar to get the look right were others failed. That's what got them the movie deal which raised them to a global and lager market.


They put very little into marketing the ribbon. I don't put much into as you do.

To me it's more important as when all this vintage ribbon gets used up. Most custom hat makers quality will drop but our will not. That to me is more important then having Just the Indy ribbon but sourcing high quality ribbon made just like they used to.

As you and you buddies question my motives and my word. I question yours.

Indiego Jones
02-26-2015, 06:14 PM
Nice move but no. You already know what I'm about to say next because I already told you. I did my own research and found out way more then they did. What you have copied here in your earlier post and what you found on COW is just a tiny part of the begining of the story.

As a fan I want to share everything with all the other fans but as a professional I have to safe guard our source. You don't have to believe me. It's up to the customer to make up their own mine. I just wish for a little professional curtesy from other vendors/hat makers.

I do find that you were 99% sure it was the ribbon when we were working together to get you better ribbon but now your 100% sure it isn't. 199% swing. Not sure I can trust your thought process.

John, you know I emphatize with you when the first questionings about the ribbon started, back in 2013, IIRC.
I felt bad for you, because you were battling alone. No Marc or Steve posted.

But, instead of trying to understand what the fans were asking about the ribbon, you started to insult and denigrate all the studies shown about the color, texture and perception of the ribbon, according the HQ screencaps we all can have thanks to the blu-ray edition.
And you do the same thing on many topics.
You show no respect to anybody.

Lucky me, I could buy my own AB last year. With ribbon and all.
That pushed me to make my own studies.
I started an obsessive study (like always) on the ribbon. All kind of testings; visual, tactile, etc.
Compared with vintage ribbons (HJ and others) from different years (Raiders era too).
And the conclusions were not satisfactory.



And John...don't try to confuse people. We never worked together.-

bendingoak
02-26-2015, 07:15 PM
John, you know I emphatize with you when the first questionings about the ribbon started, back in 2013, IIRC.
I felt bad for you, because you were battling alone. No Marc or Steve posted.

But, instead of trying to understand what the fans were asking about the ribbon, you started to insult and denigrate all the studies shown about the color, texture and perception of the ribbon, according the HQ screencaps we all can have thanks to the blu-ray edition.
And you do the same thing on many topics.
You show no respect to anybody.

Lucky me, I could buy my own AB last year. With ribbon and all.
That pushed me to make my own studies.
I started an obsessive study (like always) on the ribbon. All kind of testings; visual, tactile, etc.
Compared with vintage ribbons (HJ and others) from different years (Raiders era too).
And the conclusions were not satisfactory.



And John...don't try to confuse people. We never worked together.-


again, you don't read the post I made. Why should I show respect to others who have a conflict of interest and is nothing more then one hat maker trying to debunk another product. As for what I said about the photos and I will say it again. You can not use images as facts. It's just not logical or possible. You also with your buddies try to use the so called Screen used hat as a possible proof for your arguments. There is no logic there either. Because you want to use a un-proven item as proof to debunk another????? Doesn't make any sense. You can't take one person word to challenge another?


I'm not confused at all. It's all clear to me know. gloves comes off now. I'm tired of the dirty of other hat makers.

neutronbomb
02-26-2015, 07:25 PM
John, that's not what's going on. I've told you that many times. You refuse to listen and all I'm left with is the impression that you are paranoid beyond reason. My bad for posting the pics in this [the Raiders ribbon discussion] thread. Later today I'll get this moved over to the defending the AB ribbon. Meanwhile feel free to continue the discussion.

Edit: posts moved

Ram Man
02-26-2015, 09:41 PM
Here's how I see it as a customer and a fan;

If the hat is good quality then the ribbon is secondary to the product. This has been proven with many look-a-like ribbons already. It isn't necessary in my opinion to make it such a big secret as though the hat market will crash. I wouldn't buy a Rolex just because someone told me it was a Rolex and to trust them. I would ask for proof and when I was satisfied that it was the real deal I would purchase it from that man. John, you make superior quality hats that perhaps might not even be matched by today's standards. I don't understand how the ribbon issue affects that. I would buy your hat based on the quality of the hat itself. Speaking from Diego's perspective there are so many others who claim "It's the genuine article" without proof. As a fan I would be thrilled to share such info, and if others used it, so what? I wouldn't buy an inferior hat just because it had 'the ribbon' on it. I would still buy your hat. I wouldn't buy a coat just because it had 'certain' buttons on it.

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone but a debate is pointless without proof. It just becomes a finger pointing argument. In this arena established by genuine fans I can understand why some might react to such a bold claim. Some say the clipper hat was grey and some say it was light brownish or whatever. Imagine if someone claimed to have the exact felt that was used? At this point I would be a bit skeptical without proof. Even Deborah Nadoolman herself can't distinguish between a Crusade jacket vs a Raiders jacket better than a fan could! There have been all sorts of claims as to who made the ToD jackets and many fans spent good money believing them. So this could very well fall into the same category.

The story behind the source of the ribbon would also contribute to what makes this such a great hobby and community. We are all passionate about this to varying degrees and I'm certain that the majority of hat buyers are Indy Fans. If it wasn't for Indy fans Then David Morgan might very well be the last American whipmaker. If it wasn't for Indy fans then Diego probably wouldn't be making leather jackets. And if it wasn't for Indy fans, you probably wouldn't be selling too many hats whether they're Indiana Jones style hats or not. It was Indiana Jones that moved Steve to start making hats, not the hat industry. Anyway, enough said!

Ram Man
02-27-2015, 02:23 AM
You also with your buddies try to use the so called Screen used hat as a possible proof for your arguments. There is no logic there either. Because you want to use a un-proven item as proof to debunk another????

There is no question in my mind that hat is the screen used hero hat. It would be quite a coincidence for a different hat to have the exact same stitching, loose threads, creases in the felt, weathering and so on. In that case the pictures don't lie although it seems you would prefer it not to be so. The "proof" is definitely in these pictures. The side by side comparisons are very specific even after 30 years. That to me is a very exciting and credible find.

bendingoak
03-02-2015, 06:21 PM
Does any of you folks ever read my post???? I never said it wasn't a screen used hat. I think it is but there is no proof of it, just the owners word and I'm ok with that. But you can't use that hat as proof for debunking something else. Do you not see the flaw there? I don't care either way because let say it is 100% screen used hat. So what. it's old, faded, distressed and not under the same conditions as a new hat. It doesn't mean anything either way. Photo's can lie, gold/white dress or blue/black dress.

Ram Man, you are correct. No one goes out of their way to buy one of my hats or Ab hats because of a ribbon. I don't think I could find you one person that does. There was no big campaign to push sales on anyone because of this ribbon. Thats just not true. Look on Steve and Marc's site. Not even a word about the ribbon. They brought it up to the forums because they are fans and wanted to share what they found. When I found out a lot more information and real hard facts. I too was excited as a fan but it isn't the thing that sales my hats. It's a big find as a fan but it is a bigger find for how the ribbon is made and the level of quality as a hat maker. It means a lot as when all the true high end vintage ribbon gets used up and is all gone, my quality will stay the same. Yes, Thats a good enough reason not to share the source!

I think some need to get away from their forums and go out to the rest of the word where many companies list on their sites that they have sourced original materials and it isn't this thing where competitors do what is being done to AB and myself. We were called the 3 dictators by these same people and no one came to our aid. I'm tired of all these. It is removing me as a fan.

I'm done with this.

bendingoak
03-02-2015, 06:38 PM
I'll add this. If I found this not to be the ribbon, I would still use it because I like it and of the quality that it brings me. I know what this is.

neutronbomb
03-05-2015, 04:32 AM
Not for John to look at as he hates photos. Fixed the photos links in my previous post on the Stetson hat I found in a San Francisco shop. Here's a compare. I'd say hit up stetson and see where they source their ribbon. In one of Diego's earlier posts he mentioned Marc saying he asked if the ribbon came smaller. It looks like this is the larger one.

Stetson Ribbon compared to AB Deluxe Ribbon:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/sfribboncompare01-1_zpspaqix2fu.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Hat%20Pictures/IMG_0636_2-1_zpskoza6zq8.jpg~original