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View Full Version : A couple of Blu-ray observations about the outdoor Peru jacket...



Oildale Jones
11-03-2012, 05:33 AM
......because I have to get them off my chest. :)

I finally got to sample my new Blu-ray disc of Raiders. I watched the opening, paying particular attention to the jacket. In the "big reveal" after he whips Barranca, the right side of Indy's collar looks mottled like goatskin but lumpy like shrunken lambskin. But what really stood out to me was his right pocket when he's filling the sandbag. The leather looks very shiny, but puckered all around the pocket. I have a jacket that looks a lot like that. It's goat. :rolleyes:

I realize most of this has been settled (well, in some places, anyway), but the more I see with my own eyes, the more questions I have. Or as Don Henley sang, "The more I know, the less I understand."

Kt Templar
11-03-2012, 09:33 AM
The puckering around the pocket is in the same position that Wested/LC uses for the backing tape in that area. It has been attributed to the tape puckering after the jacket has been thoroughly soaked during distressing. We've seen older Wested's show this characteristic. I have wondered whether this is an older type of tape maybe fixed with spirit gum glue rather then the modern, 'Wonderweb' type tape.

neutronbomb
11-03-2012, 07:43 PM
Maybe that's something you can confirm with Peter next time you're able to chat with him.

On a side note, I noticed that he had logged onto the site and mentioned he would give you an interview about his Raiders days. But since we changed the software and URL and with everyone having to recapture their passwords and all, I'm wondering if he's not been able to get logged back on. I can reset the password and email it to him if you think that would be of help.

Here's the thread where the backing tape/puckering around the pocket was discussed in the first few pages: http://www.fortuneandglory.org/forums/threads/1584-Main-Hero-vs-Hawaii-Imam-jacket

A few pics from the thread:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/PocketHawaiiSandbag.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/PocketDemo.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/LeatherConcessionaires-WrinklyPocketSurround2.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/LCTapePuckeronPocket2.jpg

It's sounds like backing tape is pretty much the accepted theory of where the puckering comes from. What else could it be. Aside from something like the pocket and stitching holding the leather from moving in certain places like the thicker piping at the top of the pocket flap while the leather around the pocket is stretched or shrinks or something causing the puckering, I don't know what other explanations would cause it. Plus it seems to be in a band. The thing is it seems a few jackets made the same way seem to do it while many others don't.

K-Wad
11-05-2012, 02:51 AM
It's things like the puckering pocket tape that affirm my belief that Peter & Co made the film jackets.

Patterns (especially ones as weird as the Raider jacket) can be lost and forgotten.
The patterns are nothing more than shapes cut out of card stock.
It's the construction techniques that are a maker's calling card.

The only jackets I've seen do this are the Raiders and LC film jackets and the earlier Wested fan jackets. That can not be a coincidence.

Oildale Jones
11-30-2012, 08:12 PM
I stayed up late last night watching the Blu-ray and I was surprised at how bright the picture is now. I was just about to post some additional observations about the jacket and coloring and suddenly I don't know whether I actually saw these things or I just dreamed about them. So I'll get back to you. :)

neutronbomb
12-01-2012, 03:41 AM
LOL. The sickness has gotten ahold of you.

Oildale Jones
12-01-2012, 08:45 AM
Holy cow, so I wasn't dreaming! OK, so one of my main interests in the jacket is the leather. Very few of the replicas have shown such red/brown underlying leather as I see in the opening of Raiders. I've been looking at the scenes with an eye toward the differing colors of the jacket and first noticed that the leather looks to me like the "spongier" leather used by Wested for the Hero (at least the Hero I have, in authentic brown lamb). Then I noticed how shiny the temple jacket is (in studio), and how the coloration differs between the unbroken leather and the distressed areas. The leather has almost a grayish sheen to it; the underleather is, again, red/brown.

So what I thought I'd dreamed about was a grid pattern on the back of the jacket, but it's actually there. If you pause when Indy reaches for the torch beside Satipo (after they see the idol), you can see lines of distress that run horizontally and vertically across the back panel, forming a grid. It's amazing how evenly spaced the squares are. (So regular I thought I was dreaming.)

Like many others I'm still questing for the "perfect" jacket and I'm very, very happy with my Todd's Standard, but the underleather is just not quite red enough for me. My Hero is even lighter underneath, but the leather (aside from the lack of grain) appears more accurate. Maybe. I just won a goatskin Hero so I'll see how that grabs me.

I'm sick. I need help.

Gunslinger
12-01-2012, 12:36 PM
Yep. Welcome to the crazy-house!

I know the shot you are talking about. The one where he's kneeling at the floor booby trap with the torch is another good one. Many shots throughout the movie where it looks like the spongy leather. Wait until you map the key leather grain patterning of each panel in your head. Then you'll know you're in trouble. :)

crismans
12-01-2012, 02:23 PM
Yep. Welcome to the crazy-house!

I know the shot you are talking about. The one where he's kneeling at the floor booby trap with the torch is another good one. Many shots throughout the movie where it looks like the spongy leather. Wait until you map the key leather grain patterning of each panel in your head. Then you'll know you're in trouble. :)

I've done that in a macro way but not a micro way like you have! ;) I've looked at the "overhead shot as they look at the booby-trapped floor" scene as well. I always thought the grid pattern was a result of Nadoolman quickly trying to distress the jacket.

Gunslinger
12-01-2012, 07:08 PM
I think it's a bit of each. There are definitely scratch marks there, but others that are definitely grain.

Working out which is which is all part of the fun.

HENRY JONES JR.
12-02-2012, 03:00 AM
You guys are all so awesome! Your all so good at detective work. I love reading these kinds of things. :goodjob:

neutronbomb
12-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Hey Oildale. I've thought of the the red/brown coloring you describe as kinda maroon and have been putting together different pics/screen caps to explore that more. So your comments come at an opportune time. Check out the Hawaii and Imam scenes. As far as the grey you describe, I've wondered how much of that is due to dusting the jacket and possible lighting or filters or whatever.

Also the yoke panel. I've been working on that also.

djd
04-15-2013, 11:32 AM
Sorry to dredge up this old thread but I actually think the shrunken lamb that wested use on their Hero jackets is a very good match for the Hawaii jacket visually. It has the correct shine, colouration and general finish. It's too thick in my opinion but on looks alone it fits the bill

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2640/img20121204225930.jpg

neutronbomb
04-15-2013, 10:57 PM
Very nice! Totally looks the part. And don't worry about bringing up old threads here.

Some of this I will be using in my "Take 4" Hawaii Jacket photo reply of which your jacket will be a part of, but this thread reminds me of a couple photos I can post here.

You know what.....You wanna see something awesome....what the hell. I'll pillage from what I'm working on. Here you go DJD. Here's a compare I used with all Imam's/Hawaii jacket screen caps. and your Wested Hero Shrunken Lamb Jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare_zps8ec57f77.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare_zps8ec57f77.jpg.html)

Also, here's what I think Oildale was talking about earlier. It's The Main Hero Jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture3_zpsbb035da0.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture3_zpsbb035da0.jpg.html)

Here's a couple more of The Main Hero. I think there's quite a bit of texture on these jackets.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture2_zps68e1a17b.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture2_zps68e1a17b.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture_zps2a709944.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture_zps2a709944.jpg.html)

EDIT: Here's the compare photo broken up into three parts
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare3_zps6a2eb77c.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare3_zps6a2eb77c.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare2_zpsbea7b634.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare2_zpsbea7b634.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare1_zpsc86ff759.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/westedshrunkencompare1_zpsc86ff759.jpg.html)

djd
04-16-2013, 07:47 AM
Yes it's a pretty good match!
In my opinion the only thing that lets the Wested Hero in this leather down is the cut of the collar. Unlike my Steele and Jones (and as I understand it the TNO Raiders), it doesn't do that falling off the back of the shoulders thing...

neutronbomb
04-17-2013, 12:34 AM
Here's a pretty cool compare in regards to what crisman, oildale, and gunslinger were discussing about the grid pattern and grain on the back of the jacket (yoke and back panel). I took the "overhead shot as they look at the booby-trapped floor" which features The Main Hero Jacket in that particular temple sequence (The Imam Jacket was also used in some temple sequences) and compared the texture of the yoke with one of the scenes where The Main Hero Jacket is used in the Truck Cab Fight with Terry Leonard (1st half of the cab fight/truck chase features The Main Hero Jacket. 2nd half features The Imam jacket). So basically I took screen caps from two different scenes or sequences where The Main Hero Jacket is used where we can see the texture of the Yoke. Also, The Main Hero Jacket was not the jacket that Debbie distressed; it was the Prototype Jacket that Debbie distressed by the side of the swimming pool. The one HF wore for the Bantu Wind scene, part of the Hawaii scene (Running from Hovitos), and that was worn by the stuntmen throughout the film.

I have a working theory that the leather used in all three jackets are very similar or basically the same. So in the same compare photo I took the back panel from the "overhead shot as they look at the booby-trapped floor" and compared it to a behind the scenes shot of the Prototype Jacket where we can really see the texture. And if you want an extra helping of fun take a gander at the yoke from the cabfight scene and compare it to the shoulder of The Prototype Jacket. Two different jackets. Same neato texture. I'll also include the photos and screen caps I used in the compare separately at the end. And before I go off to sip some fine tequila, I threw in a couple of little bonuses. I've given props to Wested's SL jacket in my previous post and one to Tony's original SL in this one. So now we can all hug and love one another. ???

bonus 1: Tony Nowak SL (shrunken lamb) original, first batch compare
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/whiskyman1copy_zpsbedbe3a0.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/whiskyman1copy_zpsbedbe3a0.jpg.html)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/yoke_backpanelcompare_zps66e3490a.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/yoke_backpanelcompare_zps66e3490a.jpg.html)

Here's one of the behind the scenes/promo pics of The Prototype Jacket. Great shot of the texture. Can also see the depth of the lines and creases. Interesting to compare it to the "overhead shot" screen cap directly below.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/prototype11_zps21ea6411.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/prototype11_zps21ea6411.jpg.html)

Here's the "overhead shot as they look at the booby-trapped floor" where you can see the texture on the Yoke and back panel (The Main Hero Jacket):
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/DVDSnap12671_zpsa564c94d.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/DVDSnap12671_zpsa564c94d.jpg.html)

Compared to this, the "grid panel" shot of the back panel Oildale mentioned (The Main Hero Jacket). Which is nice because it gives us two separate views, perspectives, and angles of the same area of the same jacket from the same scene. This screen cap shows that it's not just scratch marks but texture which is double nice because in the "overhead shot" it's difficult to see the depth of the surface:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture3_zps4a3a4e5d.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texture3_zps4a3a4e5d.jpg.html)

Here's the yoke of The Main Hero Jacket where it is used in the cab fight scene:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/cabfight_texture2-11_zpsf867d426.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/cabfight_texture2-11_zpsf867d426.jpg.html)

bonus 2: Tony Nowak SL (shrunken lamb) original, first batch compare
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/05f4e396-c751-4dab-aab3-f338a83f2602_zps36df9338.jpg:original (http://s615.photobucket.com/user/neutronbomb_photos/media/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/05f4e396-c751-4dab-aab3-f338a83f2602_zps36df9338.jpg.html)



Edit: I was able to get the larger photo images into photo bucket that was a problem from my last post featuring DJD's Wested Hero Shrunken Lamb Jacket and The Imam jacket. Check it out.

neutronbomb
04-17-2013, 03:46 PM
Ok. I've tweaked and corrected and added to the previous couple of posts. Also included some arrows and color coded circles that always makes Gunslinger happy Indy_popcorn

I've noticed on large images when I go to use tapatalk often there is a question mark for the image instead of the image. I thought that might mean there was a problem with a broken link, but with the updates to photobucket it embeds a url link with the image so that the question mark in tapatalk can be clicked on and then it opens up the web browser on the phone and takes you to the image stored in photobucket. I don't like this much because it seems the image then can't be zoomed in and out on with pinching the screen or whatever. So to really see these images clearly a computer screen/monitor needs to be used.

HENRY JONES JR.
04-17-2013, 04:28 PM
GREAT investigation work neutronbomb! Looks like lots of work, but I sure thank you for it!

Oildale Jones
04-17-2013, 06:02 PM
Nice work!

neutronbomb
04-17-2013, 06:46 PM
Edit: additional information added for description and clarity purposes and corrected typos.

Your welcome and thank you guys. There are counter points though that others have brought up. Mostly by Mac, KT, Peter, and Platon. Maybe others.

In a nutshell, because it's been discussed in a lot of places, Peter has laid claim to making the jackets used in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Other fans have said that Noel Howard has verbally verified this to them. Noel was in charge of the costuming at Berman's for their involvement with the Raiders production. Sometime ago Peter did post that he would work with KT in getting an interview up here on his full involvement. Anyway, he's stated in the past that the leather he used for making the jackets used in ROTLA came from Turner (?) tannery in Britain and that they did not use any form of shrunken processing in their tanning of leather because they didn't know about it. Peter said the skins as far as he knows were NZ/AUS sheepskins/lambskins.

After his involvement in making the jackets used in CS, Tony Nowak has stated he was given a screen used jacket from Raiders to copy by a studio executive. The studio executive wanted a copy as close as possible to the original screen used jacket. Tony was allowed to examine the jacket for a couple days and then worked with his tannery in Italy in duplicating the leather from the screen used jacket as close as possible using the current, modern tanning methods of his tannery. He told me he focused on the color and the type of leather. After examining the screen used jacket he determined the type of leather was shrunken lambskin. He said he recognized it because he had worked extensively with it previously.

Once his replica jacket came out, the discussion and controversy over the type of leather used in the screen used jackets started. For two reasons. It contradicted what Peter said about the leather he used to make the Raiders jackets he turned in to Berman's and it didn't match the smooth leather that fans believed they saw when watching the movie. Any texture pointed out through screen caps or photos was attributed to film/media noise.

Fans began taking a closer look and soon the screen cap was examined that clearly shows the single row of soft, loose, disconnected bubbles that form in multiple striations or lines on the upper chest of The Main Hero Jacket. RCSignals first discussed this with Tony and then about a week later I drove up to Tony's shop and sat down with him and showed him the screen cap. He immediately told me that he knew what this was and that it was a natural part of some sheep. His third batch of shrunken lambskin leather was sent to him from his tannery where they sourced a type of sheep/lambskin that feature this characteristic prominently. They also were in single rows of bubbles that formed in multiple striations or lines on the skin, but they appeared more hard, solid, and connected. Incidentally, his first, original batch of skins did have some of the single rows of softer, looser, disconnected bubbles that formed in multiple striations or lines, but they blended in more with the overall texture of the jacket/skin and were more scattered or hit or miss across the hides. Interestingly enough, much like the three jackets we see on film. He was aware of this of course and pointed them out on the remaining batch of skins from his first order of shrunken lamb and on Whiskeyman's jacket that was in his shop at the time for repairs. However, now that there was a demand for striations.....one better ensure the hides show up with striations, hence the 3rd order that featured it prominently. After seeing this third batch I decided to get what I called my Rock n Rolla jacket, my current fav, and asked for a batch that was super enhanced in every way, shrunken and the striation lines. We called this ESSL. Much of the striation lines showed up on that batch as thick folded over wrinkles.

At about the same time all this was going on, KT was doing his own research into the screen cap that clearly shows the single row of soft, loose, disconnected bubbles that form in multiple striations or lines on the upper chest of The Main Hero Jacket. He was sent a photo from a Dr. Scobie that showed a raw, untanned skin with a feature that showed multiple rows of raised, solid striation lines and identified the skin he showed as being Ribby Merino. What the industry commonly calls the wrinkles in the skin that run in striations or lines that appear to follow the ribs and that are produced in merino or merino x sheep breeds. What's interesting about that particular photo is the Ribby striation lines look much more like my ESSL jacket with the thick heavy wrinkles than they do to that particular film screen cap of the soft, disconnected bubble lines on the upper chest of The Main Hero Jacket. Again, Ribby Striation lines are wrinkles in the sheep's skin that run in lines from the spine down to it's chest and appear to follow the sheep's ribs.

Since then, Mac has provided historical jacket photos that show bubble striation lines and texture and also compared them to photos and screen caps of the film jackets. To date the discussion has evolved into whether the texture of non-shrunken Ribby Merino skins match the texture on the film jackets. This would lend support to what Peter has said about the skins he used.

Also to be taken into consideration, is that Ribby Merino striation lines can take on a much different form depending on where the merino sheep breed is located. NZ, AUS, South Africa, etc., along with likely the age of the sheep, and how much merino it has in it. Additionally, and importantly it should be noted, is that what appears as raised bubbles in lambskin is NOT necessarily caused only by Ribby Merino wrinkle striation lines. For instance, the shrunken tanning process can also cause the raised bubble look, notice Platon that I didn't say lines. Though Tony's first batch of shrunken skins did contain raised bubbles that stood out a bit more from the rest of the texture and formed a line appearance. Who knows, maybe there was a merino great granddad in the lineage somewhere. Or like Tony said, it's a natural part of some sheep. I'll examine all of that much more closely in my reply to some of the responses to the "Take 4" Hawaii photo from the rare and deleted thread.

Next up will be a look at the color of the jacket Oildale mentioned stood out to him in the Hawaii approaching the Temple scene.

Gunslinger
04-17-2013, 09:37 PM
Great summary NB. Made better by the red circles and arrows. :)

Interestingly enough, the early episode of Seinfeld where he and Elaine hook up as friends with benefits was on TV here last night, and he's wearing a leather jacket with identical grain as far as I can tell.