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PLATON
06-14-2012, 09:13 AM
Somebody please remind me what is this?

http://s15.postimage.org/ffkhfgya3/lcarchivejacketxp3.jpg

Is it the archives jacket supposedly bought from Lee Keppler, or it it the Wested sample jacket provided for the CS movie?

Thanks!

St. Dumas
06-14-2012, 07:25 PM
The former. It's the one that supposedly formed the basis for Peter's LC jacket AND TNO's CS jacket.

PLATON
06-14-2012, 07:38 PM
I would think this is an LC jacket made for the film but not used.

The Lee Keppler jackets had bigger zipper, with slider as shown below and was right hand, American style

http://www.idealfastener.com/data/slider_big/853.jpg

Lee Keppler was making the jackets with G&B who still put the zipper on the right side.

crismans
06-14-2012, 08:03 PM
The former is the "official" story, but, now that everything is in doubt, who knows?

St. Dumas
06-14-2012, 08:43 PM
Too true. That photo was posted by Peter, which means that it was the jacket sent to him for his proposal for the CS jacket. We at least know that. Whether it was the same jacket Peter was given from the LFL archives for the LC jacket is the question. We don't even know if Peter was given a jacket from LFL on which to base the LC jacket.

PLATON
06-15-2012, 11:33 AM
this could be one of the Leather Concessionaires jackets made by Peter for Lee Keppler.
So Peter maybe was ruled out of CS because of one of his own jackets.

St. Dumas
06-15-2012, 05:42 PM
I tracked down the source of the story that Wested's LC jacket and TNO's CS jacket were both based on the Keppler jacket from the Lucasflim archives. Unfortunately, it came from Hayes himself, but the original quote had been purged as part of Pattergate. Here's a re-quote:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u257/obiwanbunjee/Capture.jpg

As far as I am now concerned, that story, completely uncorroborated, is garbage. The part about Lee Keppler being contacted to make the jackets may be true for all I know, but the rest is unreliable due to its source. Lee Keppler might know.

neutronbomb
06-15-2012, 06:55 PM
That's the trouble with COW saying only 3 pages, the jacket write ups, are influenced by Patterson. It's all the details, all the information on this he's posted in addition to what's in the writeups. It reaches everywhere.

Kt Templar
06-15-2012, 07:52 PM
This was the jacket that Peter was given photos and notes to copy. He was not sent it. When he went to the US for further meetings he was not allowed to take it way to analyse it.

The jacket is not a production LC is it a very different leather and you can see it has different details. It has inner zipper facings that the LC jacket does not have.

If this was a Keppler jacket please explain why it looks nothing like a Raiders, or ToD (ie the large collar and storm flap snaps), if it was a prototype for the LC, why does it have the double stitched shoulders and the facings on the zipper.

My bet is, it is some sort of prototype for a licensed jacket that was made based on the LC jacket from an unknown maker with those details added for 'real world' use.

PLATON
06-15-2012, 08:38 PM
Common sense disagrees with this story.

First of all, for the ToD jacket, if there were any left over hero jackets from Rotla they could have taken any one of these jackets to any leather jacket maker in the world and would have asked him to copy it. There is a chance that it was the Bantu Wind jacket that had survived which could be the explanation why the ToD jacket has the same pleat openings and low yoke with the Bantu Wind jacket. Please read my thoughts below.

My common sense says that the film makers at the time they wanted to make the ToD jacket they went to Berman (who was the chief costumier), they gave him the Bantu Wind jacket and asked him to make extra copies for ToD. Berman made them in-house, first because he could (if he had the Bantu Wind in hands it was easy) and second because he did not want to give the job to Peter because of their own reasons. I am 99.9% sure the ToD jacket was made by Berman's in-house because the side strap buckles could only be found in-house as they were items used on another costume that would only exist in a film costumier's shop/warehouse and not at any leather jacket manufacturer's shop. (Those who may have researched the ToD jacket buckles a little may understand what I mean). Also the fact that there is silence all these years about the ToD jacket coincides with the fact that Berman got old and retired and his firm closed. If there was an 'X' jacket maker had done it he would be all over the place now shouting 'I was the one made the ToD jacket'.

In the case of LC the film makers went again to Berman (because that's what they do, they go to their costumier) and Berman pointed Peter, because either the misunderstanding was forgotten, or if not, some other guy working for Berman, in this case Noel Howard pointed Peter because he knew that he was the same guy who produced the 1st jacket for Rotla. Or they went to Noel and told him, 'give back the ToD jacket we're making another movie' and Noel said 'no thanks, go to Peter he'll make you as many as you like."

To my mind it would be impossible if you are Lucasfilm to ask a nobody (in this case Lee Keppler) where to get your own jackets from your own movie considering that Lee Keppler was someone who made the jacket from pictures and videotapes. First of all, they would have to read the "Soldier of Fortune" and second of all, it is only logical that they would go to Lee Keppler only if Berman and Peter were dead or out of business. Even then, they had tons of photos and footage that they could have taken to Western Costumes, Cooper, Wilson, or whoever the hell you want and tell him, "here's the jacket, here's the photos/videos, make us a jacket just like this". First all this should have failed and then go to Lee Keppler.

There is a chance that all the jackets from Rotla were given as presents to the locals in Tunisia who helped with the filming as souvenirs or tokens of appreciation. I have been to an international exhibition recently and the exhibitors were giving away $5000 worth of stuff just because they didn't want to carry the exhibits back home. Nobody knows. Jackets meant nothing, they were just costume pieces like any other costumes. What was important was to wrap-up the movie and make the millions. Lucas and Spielberg knew it was going to be a successful movie and a classic, because it was based on classics but maybe they couldn't realize the magnitude. I don't think they cared much for the costumes. This explains also why all the pieces of the costume e.g. the hat are going around and they are not found in the archives.

djd
06-15-2012, 08:44 PM
A lot of speculation there but it's a convincing theory. All you need now is a phone call from George to confirm it ;)

Seriously I think it's a very good theory particularly the point about why we've never heard from the ToD jacket maker

PLATON
06-15-2012, 08:48 PM
This was the jacket that Peter was given photos and notes to copy. He was not sent it. When he went to the US for further meetings he was not allowed to take it way to analyse it.

The jacket is not a production LC is it a very different leather and you can see it has different details. It has inner zipper facings that the LC jacket does not have.

If this was a Keppler jacket please explain why it looks nothing like a Raiders, or ToD (ie the large collar and storm flap snaps), if it was a prototype for the LC, why does it have the double stitched shoulders and the facings on the zipper.


I don't know how you can see the inner zipper facings. This could not have been a Keppler's jacket. Notice the long sleeves. Keppler's had long sleeves? This must have been a jacket either made by Wested or a jacket copied from a Wested with the measurements of HF, which might be the explanation why when HF went to the archives and tried it on, said "Oh yes, that's my jacket"



My bet is, it is some sort of prototype for a licensed jacket that was made based on the LC jacket from an unknown maker with those details added for 'real world' use.

That's a logical explanation. Also, the jacket featured in the official website can't be a Wested. These guys have a bad habit to scrap all the costume pieces after a movie is made. They must have recreated the LC jacket for the website shots. Also, the Mystery of the Blues jacket doesn't look anything like a film used LC, so again has to be either a Wested that was not used in LC or a copy they made for Mystery of the Blues because they were out of jackets... again.

Don't be surprised if they will not use the TN jackets for the 5th movie,
(they might use Bill Kelso's if BK manages to send one jacket to their archives)

PLATON
06-15-2012, 08:50 PM
A lot of speculation there but it's a convincing theory. All you need now is a phone call from George to confirm it

Seriously I think it's a very good theory particularly the point about why we've never heard from the ToD jacket maker

sure it's theory,
I repeatedly asked that the management of this forum ask Mr Lucas for an interview.
Or if not, just send a letter with these questions, I 'm sure they will be glad to reply.


also the theory that they donated the costumes to locals must be the reason why the jacket never surfaced.

St. Dumas
06-15-2012, 08:52 PM
I don't recall reading on COW where Lee Keppler either confirmed or denied anything that Hayes wrote about the source of the CS prototype jacket. I also doubt that the prototype Peter saw and photographed was Lee Keppler's jacket, as the collar looks nothing like the Raiders collar, and if Keppler based his jacket orders on photos from Raiders, he'd have had a different-looking collar.

As for the TOD jacket, the side pleat is just an unstitched Raiders pleat, like the stunt jacket from the truck drag scene which appears to have been enlarged to accommodate the padding. However, the pockets are clearly different, as is the part where the collar stand meets the top of the storm flap. This suggests to me that the TOD jacket maker at least based the TOD jacket on a Raiders jacket, possibly having access to one. Maybe even on a stunt jacket.

Kt Templar
06-15-2012, 08:52 PM
;)

1) I know it had facings

2) Wested's samples made for the production did.

3) The Nowak that was made based on the 'proto' did too.

neutronbomb
06-15-2012, 08:56 PM
The jackets we can see throughout ROTLA made it to Hawaii.



....
There is a chance that all the jackets from Rotla were given as presents to the locals in Tunisia who helped with the filming as souvenirs or tokens of appreciation. I have been to an international exhibition recently and the exhibitors were giving away $5000 worth of stuff just because they didn't want to carry the exhibits back home. Nobody knows. Jackets meant nothing, they were just costume pieces like any other costumes. What was important was to wrap-up the movie and make the millions. Lucas and Spielberg knew it was going to be a successful movie and a classic, because it was based on classics but maybe they couldn't realize the magnitude. I don't think they cared much for the costumes. This explains also why all the pieces of the costume e.g. the hat are going around and they are not found in the archives.

Mac
06-15-2012, 09:18 PM
http://s15.postimage.org/ffkhfgya3/lcarchivejacketxp3.jpg

I believe this is the Keppler jacket SOF ad:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerSOFad.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerSOFad-2.jpg

kiltie
06-15-2012, 09:26 PM
No snaps?
But what is this?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/safdkiltie/KepplerSOFad.jpg

It's better seen in the original post.

St. Dumas
06-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Zipper pull is on different sides.

Kt Templar
06-15-2012, 09:40 PM
Zipper pull is on different sides.


Seems like that idiocy (I had a stronger word but thought against it...) :) has deep roots.

Mac
06-15-2012, 09:54 PM
This is supposed to be the Keppler G&B prototype:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerGBPrototype-1.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerGBPrototype-3.jpg

The leather certainly looks different than the one Platon posted. No snaps. The arm attachment seam is different. As you can see in the last photo, the zipper is on the American side on this one as well. (The zipper being an American invention, I maintain that the rest of the world has it wrong! :))

IfAdventureHasAName
06-15-2012, 10:19 PM
This is supposed to be the Keppler G&B prototype:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerGBPrototype-1.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/KepplerGBPrototype-3.jpg

The leather certainly looks different than the one Platon posted. No snaps. As you can see in the last photo, the zipper is on the American side on this one as well. (The zipper being an American invention, I maintain that the rest of the world has it wrong! :))


Saw that exact same jacket, in person, when I met Lee Keppler when he was at gun show in Northern California back in September of 2010. At that time, I also picked up some gear from him, which I pre-ordered and pre-paid, which included a fedora which I posted a thread here http://www.fortuneandglory.net/index.php?topic=598.0. Mr. Keppler stated that the jacket was made from horsehide.

As for the story of the snaps being added to the stormflap, this is what he told me. First off, Mr. Keppler told me that he informed that OTHER message board NOT to credit him for adding the snaps to the stormflap of the jacket. In fact, he thought that adding the snaps to the stormflap was ridiculous. The snaps on the stormflap was per the order request of...a country music executive located in Nashville, Tennessee, U.S.A. Now as to how, and, if, or when Lucasfilms may have gotten a copy of the jacket, with the snaps on the stormflap...Mr. Keppler doesn't even know.

Now I'm not trying to go all "Todd Hayes a.k.a. Patterson" on all of you so, take my story and take Mr. Keppler's story for what it's worth. My only suggestion would to be have someone contact Mr. Keppler to ask him. As far as I know, he can still be reached at his mobile number of 1 (619) 647-6744, which he prefers, or at Rotl007@aol.com

BTW, I tried asking about Todd Hayes a.k.a. "Patterson" but, he seemed hesitant to talk about him.

St. Dumas
06-15-2012, 11:48 PM
Do we even know if LFL got a hold of a Keppler jacket? I think Hayes posted that on COW as well. How else would that have come to be so called common knowledge?

crismans
06-16-2012, 01:52 AM
As for the TOD jacket, the side pleat is just an unstitched Raiders pleat, like the stunt jacket from the truck drag scene which appears to have been enlarged to accommodate the padding.

I'm not sure about this. IIRC, the side pleat doesn't go as far up the jacket on the TOD as it does on the Raiders and the configuration is different in a few other ways. I'll look up some photos to confirm. Also, as an aside, based on the research Holt and I did for the Wings prototype, it looks like the side pleat was glued rather than stitched on the TOD. KT has seen the NH in person so he could confirm that.

I've been in contact with Lee recently concerning getting another fedora and he wanted to see my photos of the prototype for Wings. I've sent those to him so maybe I ask for a quid pro quo and ask him some questions over this if everybody was ok with my doing it.


Do we even know if LFL got a hold of a Keppler jacket? I think Hayes posted that on COW as well. How else would that have come to be so called common knowledge?

I think he did post that. If so, it's heavily in doubt.

St. Dumas
06-20-2012, 05:01 PM
As for the TOD jacket, the side pleat is just an unstitched Raiders pleat, like the stunt jacket from the truck drag scene which appears to have been enlarged to accommodate the padding.

I'm not sure about this. IIRC, the side pleat doesn't go as far up the jacket on the TOD as it does on the Raiders and the configuration is different in a few other ways.

I'm not saying the TOD film jackets were Raiders production jackets opened up, but the TOD pleat design is simply the Raiders design pleat opened up. Even if the TOD jacket was based on a Raiders stunt jacket with the pleat opened up. If you compare the pleat of any Raiders replica jacket to Wested's TOD offering it is obvious. There is also no other way to logically explain the TOD's completely illogical and functionless pleat design. I will certainly defer to Peter on this.

crismans
06-20-2012, 08:44 PM
As for the TOD jacket, the side pleat is just an unstitched Raiders pleat, like the stunt jacket from the truck drag scene which appears to have been enlarged to accommodate the padding.

I'm not sure about this. IIRC, the side pleat doesn't go as far up the jacket on the TOD as it does on the Raiders and the configuration is different in a few other ways.

I'm not saying the TOD film jackets were Raiders production jackets opened up, but the TOD pleat design is simply the Raiders design pleat opened up. Even if the TOD jacket was based on a Raiders stunt jacket with the pleat opened up. If you compare the pleat of any Raiders replica jacket to Wested's TOD offering it is obvious. There is also no other way to logically explain the TOD's completely illogical and functionless pleat design. I will certainly defer to Peter on this.


Got you. I agree with this then.