PDA

View Full Version : Mind the Gap.......and the fold



neutronbomb
08-20-2010, 11:06 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/353435978_e3b23891ab_o-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20IMANS/Imams-Yoke-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20WELL%20OF%20SOULS/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--13-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20WELL%20OF%20SOULS/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--10-1-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/353436585_3600c890f0_o.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--19-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--20-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/IMG_0063.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20WELL%20OF%20SOULS/268-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--16.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20RAVEN/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-indiana--11-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/2869770325_4f93a1be11_o.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20FLYING%20WING/2869765965_c81e35b6c1_o.jpg

Gunslinger
08-20-2010, 11:33 PM
Agreed with what you're seeing ther Bryan. There's zero gap on the actual hero jacket. Here are both sides:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Back-Gap.jpg

And click here for higher resolution version:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Back-Gap.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Back-Gap.jpg)

Raskolnikov
08-20-2010, 11:41 PM
Yep. No gap.

neutronbomb
08-20-2010, 11:51 PM
I have two jackets from Tony. The idea is that the two seams lay next to each other. I think that's what I see in the film jackets. Each jacket is handmade, in the film and from Tony, so in constructing the jacket(s) there of course may be a variance in the space between these two seams. A few millimeters, right next to each other. I have a small gap on one that I pictured that is 2 millimeters and on another that is 1 millimeter.

HOWEVER, this is from the thread/stitching of the arm seam that comes up and around and meets the yoke. The thread/stitching is just a bit off to the side of what we visually see as the edge of the seam itself. So the outside edge of the seam to the thread stitching is between 5 and 6 millimeters. So as not to interfere with that thread/stitching the back panel lays off of it a millimeter or two or three depending on the width of the back panel which we need to remember is handmade and handcut.

It is clear in the film jackets we have posted above that this is likely the case also AND you get that fold that sticks up about an inch or two or so down on the back panel edge from where it actually attaches. Some have pointed to the top of that fold as where the gap is and that's an optical illusion. Nevertheless in a handmade jacket will there be a bit of variation in the "gap", I'm sure there will. But unless it is like an inch or whatever I suspect the fold is part of the deal. It is in both of mine; just like the film.

So what do we refer to this as? No gap, small gap, non-existent gap, sorta gap, tiny gap, the 1-3 millimeter gap? My thinking is more closely related to Gunslinger and Rask in referring to this as "No Gap". But, it's something we should definitely agree on what the definition is, because someone using "no gap" could be referring to the seams laying on top of each other ??? and that would be bad to have.

RCSignals
08-21-2010, 12:37 AM
The back panel should just meet or at least be close to the stitching for the shoulder seam.
I suppose some might call the area from that stitch seam to the jacket sleeve a 'gap'?

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
08-21-2010, 01:01 AM
NB we are talking 'no gap' and any tiny gap in the pattern is to achieve 'no gap + pleat function.' The 'USW Raiders Jacket' thread on another site showed a 1/4 inch gap on a TN Raiders that is bridging a gap to the Wings jacket logic somehow. Things are twisted over there.

H

Chewbacca Jones
08-21-2010, 01:32 AM
I have several USW jackets, and they all have a gap wider than 1/4 inch. However, that weird fold develops after a few wearings. In fact, all of my Indy jackets (Wings, Magnoli, Wested, 1990's fan club Cooper), have developed that fold at one point or another, regardless of the size of the gap. :o

Gunslinger
08-21-2010, 02:57 AM
Isn't the alleged "real world" reason for the gap to avoid that... or something? I mean, my shoulders seem to work fine with no gap.

I wonder if you are manufacturing a jacket, it's just easier to systemise having a gap - IE you don't have to be as careful that your measurements are dead-on to line up with the arm seams. In other words, having a gap gives you a margin of error. I'd assume you build the back first, then sew the arms on...? Hmm, if you were doing that, having a gap would probably be easier to sew because you're not having so much material intersecting so close to a line you're trying to keep straight. Imagine the head of a sewing machine (that sled thing that pushes down) - if you had a gap of about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch, it would mean the sled thing would avoid it.

Maybe someone who knows more about sewing can comment?

Kt Templar
08-21-2010, 06:50 AM
To some extent your body shape will cause this (mine does too). The gap probably make it easier to build the jacket and generally it may minimise the kink.

But, there is a shot of Ford on the set of CS and even that jacket 'kinked' sometimes so it isn't limited to any particular maker.

Chewbacca Jones
08-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Isn't the alleged "real world" reason for the gap to avoid that... or something? I mean, my shoulders seem to work fine with no gap.



It's not the fold, or kink, that's the reason. The gap helps cut down on the action pleat's tendency to stay open at the top. It doesn't always eliminate it, but I have personally found that to happen less with jackets that have a gap of more than 1/4 inch. I'm thinking that the gap size, combined with the wearer's body shape, determine where the fold forms. If it forms lower, the pleat closes more reliably. If it forms higher, the pleat tends to remain open. Just a layman theorizing.

crismans
08-21-2010, 06:27 PM
Isn't the alleged "real world" reason for the gap to avoid that... or something? I mean, my shoulders seem to work fine with no gap.



It's not the fold, or kink, that's the reason. The gap helps cut down on the action pleat's tendency to stay open at the top. It doesn't always eliminate it, but I have personally found that to happen less with jackets that have a gap of more than 1/4 inch. I'm thinking that the gap size, combined with the wearer's body shape, determine where the fold forms. If it forms lower, the pleat closes more reliably. If it forms higher, the pleat tends to remain open. Just a layman theorizing.


I can buy this. What is confusing to me is that I don't see this pronounced a gap in any of the jackets on screen. I won't say adamantly 100% that there's not one, but I haven't seen one and I've looked at this jacket A LOT. I hear what you're saying that Wings has been careful to word that it's 100% to Cooper's patterns, not necessarily to the screen jacket (if I'm remembering you right) and I think you have a valid point there. The gap has been said to have been added for "real word" function on past jackets. Is this the case here?

Basically I'm wondering if this is the actual movie pattern for the Cooper jackets. If so, where--what scenes? I'm not suggesting this pattern doesn't appear, but I wish someone would point out to me where it's at so I could watch it.

The above questions aren't directed at you, CJ, just rhetorical. I know that you don't know any more than I on this point (or I don't think so, do you? ;) :D). Your post just brought them to my mind.

Chewbacca Jones
08-23-2010, 06:22 AM
Crismans, I can confirm that Sarge himself said, directly, that the larger gaps were among the "real world" features that US Wings uses, but made no such remarks concerning Cooper.

As far as the movie jackets, I have to agree that I don't see significant gaps anywhere on screen, but I can't rule them out completely, either. I too am wondering if the Cooper pattern we are seeing from US Wings is a movie-used pattern, or the first pattern for the consumer jackets. I mean, since Neil Cooper has a habit of keeping pretty mum, this point is murky. Plus, we have little by which to gage the reliability of his memory. :o

crismans
08-24-2010, 01:22 AM
I too am wondering if the Cooper pattern we are seeing from US Wings is a movie-used pattern, or the first pattern for the consumer jackets.

This is where I'm leaning but I have no firm evidence either way.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
08-24-2010, 01:34 AM
that has always made more sense to me too...

how similar are the new jackets to the Disney Coopers from the early 90's?


H

Chewbacca Jones
08-24-2010, 02:00 AM
I've only seen the new jackets in pictures, but if the Disney Coopers were the same as the Fan Club Coopers, they are very close. The main difference seems to be that the new ones don't have inside leather facings, where the old Cooper did.

RCSignals
08-24-2010, 02:11 AM
..........

how similar are the new jackets to the Disney Coopers from the early 90's?


H


They both lack a bottom hem stitch, both have fairly large arm holes and generous sleeves. Both have right hand zipper pulls
The Disney/Fan club has a lower yoke, different collar stand type. longer side straps.

I'm sure others can list much more of the similarities/dissimularites

theman
09-01-2010, 03:08 PM
I think there is a certain amount of gap at the back panel on one of the film jackets... there are of course plenty of shots with little or no gap, but there are some with gap.
Take the spider seen shown earlier in the thread for instance, that is merely looking like not much gap at one angle, but change the frame a hair and you see something a bit different when it comes to gap.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2869761795_07d5aca092_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/2870598160_ed81ef53d5_o.jpg

And I of course have no problem with a little bit of gap...
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7179/indymeright.jpg

but I do have a problem with BIG gaps that are the standard USWings Indy jackets. They are at least headed in the right direction with the newer Cooper pattern.

RCSignals
09-01-2010, 06:02 PM
the back panel is meant to be placed as close to the sewn shoulder seam as practical. That leaves the seam width to the actual sleeve as a 'gap' to the sleeve.
If a sewer ends up with the back panel an 1/8 of an inch from the thread of the sewn seam I wouldn't consider that a 'gap', but a 'tolerance'

I don't see a 'gap' in those screen shots, at least not a confirmable one when you consider the photos, the movement of the jacket, shadows etc.

Because of illusion in photos some people have even insisted the back panel extends out right over the shoulder seam to touch the jacket sleeve.

crismans
09-01-2010, 08:16 PM
I do see a "gap" in some of the jackets, but it is not an intentional one, imo. What I mean is, like RC said, I think the pieces of leather are to lay as close to each other as they can. Due to being made by hand, there is a variation in how close the yoke piece lies to the sleeve piece. I don't think it was a uniform gap incorporated into the pattern.

That said, I do agree that the new Wings offering (is the jacket on the site the offering or not?) is a nice improvement.

Chewbacca Jones
09-02-2010, 06:11 AM
I do agree that the new Wings offering (is the jacket on the site the offering or not?) is a nice improvement.

Sgt. Hack was a bit vague, but he hinted that the gap would be one of the differences between what we see on the website jacket and his "special" offering. Only time will tell the tale.

Tyderium
09-02-2010, 06:30 AM
Possibly if and where it appears on screen jackets, the nominal gap was not intentional but more down to haste in construction.
I don't believe the jacket Tony had to copy had a gap.

RCSignals
09-02-2010, 06:38 AM
You are correct Tyderium, the jacket Tony had to copy did not have a gap.

The jackets made for Raiders probably didn't have 'tolerances' specified, but every jacket made today has some sort of specification and most mass produced jackets do have tolerances stated. The tolerances can vary with specific areas of a jacket for things like that back panel gap, sleeve length, and pretty much every measurement. Some might be 1/8 inch some might be up to 1/2"

A custom made jacket will probably have very close tolerances acceptable, maybe only 1/8" or so for any measurement.