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PLATON
04-27-2012, 12:20 PM
Have we been able to summarize the differences between these two jackets?
Draw like a list or something?

Let's hear the experts.

Ravenswood
05-05-2012, 06:17 PM
I will dare say the Main Hero sports maybe slightly smaller pockets, and definitely a larger neck opening.

Gunslinger
05-06-2012, 04:32 AM
Off the top of my head, you take the Hawaii / Imam / Nowak and change the following:

Pocket flap shape - less square (higher at the corners), give the impression of being shorter.
Different vertical placement of pocket snaps
No visible backing tape around flaps on MH.
More rounded off collar stand
Less of a hinging collar stand "butt crease"
Floppy / lopsided collar
Arguably less pointy collar tips
Back pleat join to yoke - different gap / lopsided hem config (need Bluray to check)
Back pleat depth - arguably slightly deeper than HW

+ Striations / leather graining differences.

Returningson
05-06-2012, 03:14 PM
hahaha....I always smile whenever I see the term "butt crease"...what lengths we go to in this hobby.... ;D

PLATON
05-06-2012, 05:48 PM
the hawaii has "visible backing tape around flaps" ? where?

djd
05-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Isn't that visible before he enters the temple? When he's bending down to collect the soil?

Gunslinger
05-06-2012, 11:52 PM
Yep, that's the shot I was thinking off but there are others IIRC.

Always happy to write of the butt crack. It makes me smile a bit whenever I have cause to type it.

PLATON
05-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Hey Kurt,

I don' think the TN jacket has a pocket backing tape

I am having hard time to understand what you mean by


Less of a hinging collar stand "butt crease"
Floppy / lopsided collar


What you mean different? Higher?

Different vertical placement of pocket snaps

you didn't mention smaller pockets, do you believe they're the same as Hawaii's?
Also what about the longer collar?

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 06:19 PM
This is relatively a tough question to answer Platon. Design differences or Appearance differences or Construction differences?

I don't see any obvious Design differences between these two jackets like we can easily see with the Prototype. Could there be? like for example a slight difference in overall size, or sleeve length or something. Strap length, etc. Well maybe. But, also the way it is worn and all the many illusions of camera angle etc could account for anything like that or the strap is pulled tighter or many things. It could be argued that these fall under construction differences, but if they were told to make these differences then I would say that falls under design. I don't see anything though with these two as far a design goes like we do with the prototype.

Construction differences. Yes, but what's significant. Of course the amount of texture and placement of it on the skins will likely differ between the two jackets. But, it's tough to see much of it really clear through all the noise. There's the zipper tape extra width at the top that can be spotted. But, that's really minor I think in the overall scheme. Difference between the yoke widths at the ends. Maybe. But this could be due to camera angle and distortion. Difference between the distances between the arm seams and the yoke seam. Maybe. But same thing. Maybe due to camera angle and distortion. Distance of back panel end from arm/shoulder seam. Maybe a millimeter or two. Maybe the snap on the pocket is placed a bit higher on the Main. Backing tape. I don't know that this is fact. It's theory to explain the leather appearance around the pockets and maybe elsewhere. Some believe it's the only explanation. If so, then it doesn't necessarily follow that the Main doesn't have it. It's just not visible. Difference in pocket size. I don't think there is a difference. Throughout the entire movie FRAME BY FRAME. Sometimes they look bigger sometimes smaller. Again, camera angle and distortion plays a big role in this area. But who knows. I wouldn't bet everything on one frame or two though. Pocket placement/Distance between front edge of pocket and seam of storm flap. A lot of argument here. Again, I wouldn't bet the farm on one frame. Plus the way the jacket is constructed for pocket placement is typically measured from the back and not the front as RCSignals pointed out somewhere. Ahhh, now we get to rounded collar tips vs a more pointed one and rounded storm flap/collar stand edge vs a more pointed one. I'm like the only one who thinks they're the same and the rounded is an illusion. Butt crack helps contribute to the collar stand illusion for example. shit, to me it's as easy as scrolling through the second page of The Main Hero thread. Plain as day. But again, everyone else says I'm wrong so there you go. I'm extremely and very against them being constructed as rounded vs The Imam though for the record. Did I mention I take a firm stance against the rounded theory. Any perceived collar size differences. I don't think so. Not construction anyway. I believe these are appearance differences. I would guess there's a lot of minor construction differences Platon, but for the most part I think they're hard to spot because of film quality and possible or likely distortion issues.

Appearance differences. Yes of course. Due to the way the leather decides to behave on each individual jacket and the way the jacket was worn. Some of them pointed out in The Main Hero and The Imam threads. Leather will wrinkle and fold and crease differently in places. Collar and collar stand may very well be constructed the same or very similar, but just appears different due to the individual behavior of the jacket. The Hinge refers to the way The Collar on the Imam jacket hangs straight down or flares out to the side. It operates at the seam like a door on a hinge. Swinging in or out. The Main hero doesn't do this. The collar fell over and then just kept going deeper and deeper. Giving it the appearance of a longer, narrower look. It's due entirely to the way the leather behaves and the point at which the collar folds over with a little bit of enhanced camera distortion thrown in to enhance it. Plus the one behind the scenes photo that everyone points out it's pretty obvious the whole collar is skewed. Just look at the other side. I think they're constructed the same though Platon. Look at the bottom of page two in The Main Hero thread. You can see in the 'Comparison Collage: The Main Hero Jacket ("Where Forrestall Cashed In") vs The Imam Jacket ("Stay Out of the Light")', where the jackets are both relatively new, that they are basically constructed the same as far as collar size and length goes. How about the pocket on The Main Hero where the thread has come undone on the front edge. Should we make jackets with this detail. But, it's a visible difference in appearance between the two. The way the zipper behaves. I don't think one is more crammed than another. Maybe. But, they both curve and swoop out. They just do it a bit differently. Doesn't mean they were constructed differently. Maybe they just behave differently. For the most part the edges of the pocket flaps on The Main Hero are curled up and they appear more warped. The Imam appears more flat and new generally. It's an appearance difference due to the way the jacket was worn. The list here could go on and on. I've listed some and enough to differentiate between the jackets in the three different jacket threads: Main, Imam, Prototype. But, I'm sure there's lot's and lot's more. Never ending likely. The difference in the amount and appearance of the scuffing on the arm seams of the two jackets in the cab fight scenes which I haven't posted yet. Etc., etc.

PLATON
05-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Very interesting.

I am talking construction differences.
The rounded or not rounded tip of the collar stand is not construction difference. It's a matter of caftmanship. The pattern could have been (most likely) rounded and the other guy made it squared. The longer gap in the zipper top is also matter of craftmanship.

For me, the hero has 5 main differences than the Hawaii/Imam.

1. Longer collar
2. Shorter collar lapels definitely more rounded
3. The pocket flaps could be a tad shorter
4. The distance between yoke seam sleeve seam

(from the above only no 1 classifies as construction difference. The other two are craftmanship differences)

What seems to be another difference is that at certain scenes the hero appers to be a much fuller jacket that fits Ford as if it was at least 1-2 sizes up. The Imam always looks and behaves like the TN repro. I haven't seen until today any repro jacket that behaves like the fuller hero jacket

At the same time, the hero appears sometimes with long collar and with shorter (normal) collar. At both states it's different than the Imam jacket. Maybe, just maybe there were too almost identical hero jackets the only difference of them being the collar length


by the way have you noticed the huge distance yoke seam/sleeve seam here?
got to be at least 1.5 inch


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2869761795_07d5aca092_o.jpg

Mac
05-09-2012, 07:58 PM
the hawaii has "visible backing tape around flaps" ? where?


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/PocketHawaiiSandbag.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/PocketDemo.jpg


An old Leather Concessionaires:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/LeatherConcessionaires-WrinklyPocketSurround2.jpg

Even on a Last Crusade jacket:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/LCTapePuckeronPocket2.jpg

- Mac

PLATON
05-09-2012, 08:16 PM
looks like crap
would you like that on your repro?

Mac
05-09-2012, 08:20 PM
You sound like Peter Botwright. :)

djd
05-09-2012, 08:38 PM
I'd like my repro to look exactly like that! I don't want a leather jacket - I want a raiders jacket....

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I think those are pretty much the pics everyone's seen for the case of backing tape. Doesn't show up in every jacket made with it though does it? That particular look of the leather shows up in a few other places I think in the film jacket so maybe they used backing tape throughout different parts of the jacket.

Platon, towards the bottom of this post http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=706.msg7264#msg7264 in the 000/888 reboot thread I showed that pic or a version of it of the distance between the arm seam to the yoke seam compared to jacket 000. Take a look when you get the chance. I took all the measurements I could think of of the jacket at the time I made that post and was at the shop of the 000/888 jacket. I don't think I'll ever fully disclose them as sure as shit someone will try and make one to those exact specs and try to sell it on ebay as the 000 jacket or better yet the actual Imam jacket. Actually all the measurements are different for the different sides of the jacket by a little bit. Sleeve lengths, the right side of the arm seam to yoke seam, etc. Anyway, that distance is on the list of things to explore in my analysis threads. That's why I mentioned it briefly in my previous response to this thread. I haven't had the chance to explore it thoroughly yet to completely rule out distortion as to why on film it may look much larger than compared to The Main Hero or even other screen grabs of the Imam itself in other parts of the movie.

Anyway jacket 000 measurement for that is:
Left Arm Seam to Yoke Seam: 1 3/4"

I just don't agree with you on #'s 1 & 2 in your post below. But to each their own. Maybe we can get in a vicious knock down argument about it over the next few days ;D #3. maybe you can post a pic of what you're looking at. #4. Something on my list to explore further. But yeah, I've been thinking so. And I've always thought the Imam was the fuller looking jacket if anything. Weird.

djd
05-09-2012, 09:09 PM
Regarding size - I was watching raiders just now and was struck at how snug the jacket is when zipped up in the raven bar scenes

PLATON
05-09-2012, 09:26 PM
I'd like my repro to look exactly like that! I don't want a leather jacket - I want a raiders jacket....

interesting.
i hope you realize that GBP 185 that wested sells their jackets won't get you a raiders jacket exactly as you want it
not even $1200 that a TN cost is enough to get the correct raiders jacket considering that TN didn't bother to get the correct side strap buckles (not even the correct color) not to mention that he didn't even bother to get European zippers, what he did was to reverse the American, resulting in having the back side of the end box in the front. In some zippers, not the ones he used, both sides are the same, but in those that he used anyone who knows little about zippers can see that something is wrong.

So how much are you prepared to pay my friend to get the correct copy? $1500? $2000 maybe?
Because if a non-sa jacket costs $1200 then the crazy attention to detail should worth up to $2000 or something more?

I may sound like Peter Botwright but you should be able to realize that all these details cannot go into a standard jacket, because it's not only the hardcore fans who buy this and if one of the other guys buys it and then says "what is this crap above my pocket, I don't like this shit, give me my money back (return for refund), what happens then my friend?

So the only way this could work is of there is a standard jacket and the jacket maker accomodates the crazy requests for an extra cost.
Then everybody will be happy I guess.

Returning to the issue of the distance of yoke and arm seam, I have seen TN jackets that had it about 1 - 1.25 inch.
is that OK, or should the owners of those jackets throw them about of the window?

PLATON
05-09-2012, 09:28 PM
there is a scene from the bar fight that he's hiding behind a wall preparing to shoot and the jacket is anything but snug,

it can't be all optical illusions, maybe there was a larger size jacket, perhaps made for one of the stuntmen that also HF wore from time to time.
otherwise can't explain the fact that the hero jacket appears snug but also full, with short collar but also with long

what do you think?

Returningson
05-09-2012, 09:31 PM
After viewing raiders several times, i can kinda see that the jacket may be snug around HF shoulders but loose around the waist giving the illusion of being snug during some scenes and loose in others..

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 10:06 PM
Yep. Great point Platon. I just threw my $995 Tony Nowak made jacket out the window :banllama: Whew what a relief. I had no idea it was such a piece of shit.

PLATON
05-09-2012, 10:22 PM
TN is a nice jacket,
as close as can be (until now) and expensive enough

but the fact is, that if you want to talk to me about 1/8 difference in the collar stand for example, then yes maybe it should be thrown out of the window.

TN made nearly a thousand jackets. These jackets are all handmade and there should be 1/8, 1/4 even 1/2 inch differences. It is understandable and acceptable. I have noticed differences in the collar stand tip, sometimes is pointy other times more rounded, the back panel doesn't always extend to the far end, the distance of yoke to arm seam is not always the same in all the jackets.

But you have to admit that TN didn't go too far in copying the jacket.
He didn't use the correct lining (he used that strange material for the pockets), the side strap buckles are off, no backing tape in the pockets and most of all, he didn't even use the correct leather. The smooth lamb he used is a 'crumbled lamb' that has nothing to do with the movie jacket and the 'dino', I don't even need to comment on that.

Until this day I haven't seen one TN jacket with SA leather. If you have, then show me. I will be happy to see it.

Despite all that, TN is still the undisputed Kind of Indy jacket makers and his jacket is considered unsurpassed.

No?

Also, the fact that he made the CS jacket made him a legend, the fact that he had a real Rotla jacket to copy made him a legend and the fact that after all that he died made him more of a legend. So his jackets, despite all their inaccuracies, are legendary.

No?

djd
05-09-2012, 10:26 PM
I've been at this long enough to know that I'll never find 'the' jacket. It's like moby dick. I'll hunt it but I'll never be satisfied. I can't afford to spend daft money on a jacket sadly but there's about as much chance of Wested or Todd getting it right as anyone else in my price range. Kurts TNO jacket looked close to perfection but I bet even that wouldn't look right on me. I know it's a forlorn hope but I'll keep searching! This next one will be jacket number six in six years. Maybe it'll be the one...!

Going back to size, I think Ford's jacket is very tight across the chest which may help explain why it tends to hang so open when it's not zipped. That and the large collar opening anyway

Mac
05-09-2012, 10:39 PM
I may sound like Peter Botwright but you should be able to realize that all these details cannot go into a standard jacket, because it's not only the hardcore fans who buy this and if one of the other guys buys it and then says "what is this crap above my pocket, I don't like this shit, give me my money back (return for refund), what happens then my friend?

So the only way this could work is of there is a standard jacket and the jacket maker accomodates the crazy requests for an extra cost.
Then everybody will be happy I guess.
I suppose if pleasing IJ gear heads was easy everyone would be doing it! :) You describe the same dilemma that Peter, Tony, Todd, and Sarge have all struggled with in regards to ‘screen accurate’ jackets.

To answer your question, no, I wouldn’t want the wrinkled backing-tape look in my jacket. But neither would I want massive striations on the back to match the ‘hanging from the bumper of the truck’ scene. And I couldn’t care less whether the storm flap is rounded or not. I’m also not a fan of artificial distressing to match the LC jacket. But lots of people will demand such things and they will pay for it. It’s a question of how ‘screen accurate’ you want your jacket, and which scene the jacket appears in, and, not inconsequentially, what one actually sees on the screen.

So what’s your market Platon?

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 10:45 PM
Are you referring to the 000 when discussing "crumpled lamb"? This has been explained. Don't you read.

Correct leather that he sourced. This argument has gone on for years and is spread through tons of threads along with tons of screen grabs. Again. Don't you read. Your opinion is fine. Your entitled to it. Will there ever be the exact. THE EXACT. Color, texture, thickness, etc. THAT batch was gone 32 years ago as I'm sure you'll find when you are sourcing from the tannery. Not to say yours won't be fantastic. I'm sure it will be.

Lining, hardware, evening out measurements, Xtra strengthening stitch on the pocket, etc. They were his replicas. I'm sure you will determine your replicas as your product you put out also.

PLATON
05-09-2012, 11:03 PM
Are you referring to the 000 when discussing "crumpled lamb"? This has been explained. Don't you read.

Correct leather that he sourced. This argument has gone on for years and is spread through tons of threads along with tons of screen grabs. Again. Don't you read. Your opinion is fine.

Of course, I don't read everything. Would like to but don't have the time.
I missed a lot of good reading, especially when I stayed out for quite some time.

I missed the explanation of the crumbled lamb. Can you please repeat it?
I wasnt't refering to the leather of 000. I can understand that that he couldn't have in stock the right leather the moment he got the original jacket to copy. So I guess he made it out of the closest thing he had in hand at the time.
But I wasn't refering to the 000. I was refering to the other smooth lamb (SL or whatever thet call it).
All the photos I have seen from TN jacket owners don't strike me as "the movie leather"
My opinion is based on my knowledge and expreriences. I don't claim that I know everything, as I haven't read everything there is.
Likewise I don't claim my opinion to be correct. I am exchanging views and sharing info so that I learn something more and draw my conclusions.

I value your opinion. As well as any others. If I am wrong at some points, please correct me, but I would like to hear the reasoning.
I used to be a Wested fan and was very sceptical about TN jackets, but with time things change and I must admit that TN's has been the most successful replica of Indy jacket out there. (I just wish he had copied the hero instead of the Hawaii).

There can never be an exact same leather, everyone knows that. Tanneries can't make the same a week after the first production (not after 30 years). There are many factors, different animals, different tanning methods, different tanning agents, colors, a million things.

But somewhere out there, there is a leather which should be closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before. My complain is that the Indy makers didn't look hard enough to find it, didn't spend enough time to develop it.

Believe me, I know it's out there...

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 11:24 PM
And I'm sure you'll find it :)

Ok. The crumpled. Maybe you mean the second version. The puckered fingertip version. If so, then this was to satisfy customers who requested shrunken lamb who didn't want the scales look. He never intended this to be the one he had to copy though it does present as the main in a few grabs. We were discussing this in one of the other jacket owner threads.

Mac
05-09-2012, 11:29 PM
But somewhere out there, there is a leather which should be closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before. My complain is that the Indy makers didn't look hard enough to find it, didn't spend enough time to develop it.

Believe me, I know it's out there...

The leather was out there. It was probably made in the same way that Peter described Turn Leather Tannery preparing it. It’s highly unlikely that 'shrunken grain' leather was available at the time (1930’s), and nor would the military pay for those expensive enzymes and the extra work on the skins. It was likely made from the cheapest skins available: grainy, ribby merino skins, that the general public shunned, and that the lowest bidder picked up for a song.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/DoolittleA-1RaidersBW.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/DoolittleA-1640x480.jpg
Yeah, that’s Jimmy Doolittle in his issue Capeskin A-1.

Here’s Brig. Gen. James Chaney in his A-1 from the April, 1938 issue of Life Magazine:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/ChaneyA-11938-640x480.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/A-1CapeskinApril1938BrigGenJamesChaney2.jpg

- Mac

PLATON
05-09-2012, 11:34 PM
Ok. The crumpled. Maybe you mean the second version.


I am not sure which one I mean.
TN offered the jacket in many leathers, goat, cow, various lambs etc.

I just said I haven't seen any which resembles the film leather too close.
I don't say he didn't make any, I say I haven't seen any (because I don't read that much)

If you have any photos of one of his leathers that you think is a good match to the film leather, can you show me please?

neutronbomb
05-09-2012, 11:55 PM
Here's the one in the thread we were discussing. Just saying it presents similar in that particular grab
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/Unknown-7.jpghttp://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/DSC04542.jpg

@mac. great pics. don't see ribby per se. Don't know about shrunken or not. Maybe your right about the 30's. I don't know. Certainly looks like it could be a type of shrunken based on appearance. There are jackets of Tony's that are shrunken that look exactly like that. Maybe one day we can see a current leather that looks exactly like that that we can know and trust the poster and info that it is indeed not shrunken. 70's and 80's though shrunken seemed to be pretty popular. This argument will probably continue to go circular forever. There are those who will think that Tony had it in his hands and knew what he was talking about and knew the difference. There are those who will say he made a mistake. There are still others who will say Tony never had one in the first place. There are other properties to shrunken. It shrinks by 40% or so. It's spongy. It stretches. Things like that. This may never get resolved, but I hear you that you and others are adamant about believing that non shrunken can give this appearance. And is THAT EXACTLY what it looked like that Tony had. We'll never know unless someone else gets ahold of it or it goes on display or something. He said it had scales like his original batch. He said he knew it. I don't know how much further we can go on this. Shrunken can look a lot of different ways. Can absolutely NOT-shrunken present exactly like shrunken or a type of shrunken. I don't know. If so, then even when blue ray comes out and if by chance it shows more clear and even if we ever see the Iman's up close and perfect and even if it shows and we can see scales or pebbles or any of the other looks of shrunken lamb, then we will still argue whether it's shrunken or not. It'll never end. Always be two camps on this.

neutronbomb
05-10-2012, 12:13 AM
Would any of the various processes have been around in the 30's? Maybe further research will turn up an answer.

http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=714

http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1187

http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=820




The leather was out there. It was probably made in the same way that Peter described Turn Leather Tannery preparing it. It’s highly unlikely that 'shrunken grain' leather was available at the time (1930’s), and nor would the military pay for those expensive enzymes and the extra work on the skins. It was likely made from the cheapest skins available: grainy, ribby merino skins, that the general public shunned, and that the lowest bidder picked up for a song.


Mentions modern enzymes. Vs what. Older methods? Seems there are various ways to get it. I wouldn't doubt some that aren't the modern enzymes maybe have been around awhile. Way technical gibberish I'm sure you will love Mac. ??? 8)
http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83

Other places mentions astringency or astringent. Ph balances. So on and so forth. I'm sure shrinking the grain has been around for a long time. Sigh.....if we ever do agree that the pics below that you just showed was shrunken grain using these older methods and/or that the Raiders was a form of shrunken grain, then we'll have another argument about whether it was with the modern enzyme method that Tony's skins used. Sooo looking forward to that.

Gunslinger
05-10-2012, 12:52 AM
Jeez I hate it when a thread gets away on me overnight... :-[

Can't... address... whole... conversation... .... .....

Mac
05-10-2012, 01:05 AM
NB, agreed there will probably always be two camps here. I personally don’t see any of the various iterations of shrunken lamb in any of the Raiders jackets and that’s probably a minority opinion here. But to me, the back of the Hero looks similar to SL in its lines and grain, but just off somehow. Ribby striations are part of the Hero look, obviously, but not exclusive to shrunken lamb.

Those vintage A-1s (and their vintage manufacturing techniques) seem very close to the look of the back of the Hero, and I think it’s highly unlikely that military A-1s were shrunken grain fashion leather (just cheap and substandard skins.)



Would any of the various processes have been around in the 30's? Maybe further research will turn up an answer.

I was going to join that forum sometime back but it was closed to new members.:) US Patent 3,010,779, “Production of Shrunk Leather,” Nov. 1961 is the earliest description of shrunken grain leather that I can find. Tanning treatises up to the 1930s are available in the public domain.


Other places mentions astringency or astringent. Ph balances. So on and so forth. I'm sure shrinking the grain has been around for a long time. Sigh.....if we ever do agree that the pics below that you just showed was shrunken grain using these older methods and/or that the Raiders was a form of shrunken grain, then we'll have another argument about whether it was with the modern enzyme method that Tony's skins used.

It seems to me that the Turn Leather tanning description, which certainly would have been available in the 1930’s, is just as viable means of producing texture and grain, especially in low quality Merino skins, as shrunken grain tanning. Whether it can be classified as ‘shrunken grain’ or not is moot.

- Mac

Gunslinger
05-10-2012, 12:36 PM
Ok let me say I'm kind of out of the zone now when it comes to the Raiders jacket. Im also very tired right now so may not make much sense. Having said that I'll just throw a bunch of stuff out there...

The way I look at it is that the 2 key jackets are pretty much the same. We're just talking little differences of the type noted above that would be unnoticeable to anyone other than freaks like us. Just normal variances when pumping out a few jackets that are meant to look sloppy anyway. So as Neutronbomb notes, we're really talking actual construction differences vs. the way it presents due to different hides and the resultant illusion of additional differences.

So when I tried to work out what the Main Hero jacket was like, I pretty much started with the Hawaii, and assumed any differences may be illusions unless there were good reasons to think otherwise. The height of the collar stand is a good one, as is the illusion of a longer collar. It all comes down to the way that sucker rolls over. Ditto yoke differences - those shots where Ford's shoulder comes close to the camera creates massive distortion, so you have to write any observations in those contexts off.

I really think the pockets themselves are the same overall size. I'm very certain that the pocket poppers ARE place differently - the overlays i did in another thread are very clear. Pocket flap shape - i could be wrong - the could just be rolling up a little, but I don't think so. I have one Nowak each way and I think the adjusted (angled) ones just look Right for the MH. In the same way the squared ones look dead-on to the Hawaii.

Backing tape - it would stand to reason that they both have it, but who knows. At this stage all we can say is that we haven't seen it on the MH - not that it's not there.

I forgot the zipper gap - but I think NB showed that even that can accordion. I'm with you on the collar stand / butt crack thing, man! :) it does accordion. But i do disagree re the MH curve of the stand being an illusion. The "Marion" shot at the flying wing clearly shows the stitching line / hem / whatever you call it, so I cant see how that could be an illusion.

Collar tips - I think Nowaks do tend to skew sharper than the movie jacket. Just within what I'd call normal tolerances. And I think there's the same jump from the HW to the MH. I couldn't find a single shot that confirms that they are "sharp". Again, I could be wrong.

Sizing? I think they're the same. It's just the pattern weirdness again.

Re the grain - I can take some shots of NZ merino you guys may like.

Returningson
05-10-2012, 04:06 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/Unknown-7.jpghttp://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k530/indydude18/DSC04542.jpg

Here a black and white snap of my striated mixed with smooth shrunken lamb which also looks close...

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i365/Travmax11/1024.jpg

Of course, my pocket shows more "grain" because it is close up but the texture lines appear similiar...

Returningson
05-10-2012, 07:36 PM
more on the texture...just a fun shot


http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i365/Travmax11/1024-1.jpg

PLATON
05-10-2012, 07:49 PM
have a color photo in hires showing your jacket?

Indiego Jones
05-10-2012, 08:17 PM
have a color photo in hires showing your jacket?

Have you a color photo hires of the jacket in the movie?

PLATON
05-10-2012, 09:02 PM
no I haven't
what's that have to do with what I asked

I asked to see his jacket to check out the leather for myself, not to compare it with the movie jacket's leather (for that we can ask Patterson, he says he's been in Lucas's office many times and has handled the jacket)

Indiego Jones
05-10-2012, 09:21 PM
Sorry, but the whole thread looks like "...try to post a pic of a TNO Raiders that convince PLATON Tony was right about the leather"

Returningson
05-10-2012, 09:36 PM
Im not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just want to see some shots of the dino hide leather that somewhat resemble the film counterpart. Its amazing how grain is lost when you add movement and then change the photo to black & white...

Indiego Jones
05-10-2012, 09:41 PM
But somewhere out there, there is a leather which should be closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before. My complain is that the Indy makers didn't look hard enough to find it, didn't spend enough time to develop it.

Believe me, I know it's out there...

And about the leather "you know it's out there, closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before", you should say "closer to what YOU SEE on the screen. Your perception of that leather."

PLATON
05-10-2012, 09:42 PM
Sorry, but the whole thread looks like "...try to post a pic of a TNO Raiders that convince PLATON Tony was right about the leather"

No this is unfair.
I don't need to be convinced (to convince for what? to buy it? it's no more available.)
I am just curious.
Little after TN jackets came out I was banned from COW, so I didn't get a chance to see many of TN's creations.
Some that I have seen (i.e. dino) didn't look close to the movie jacket for me but later I heard that he offered many different kinds of leathers that all looked great. I haven't seen many of those. This forum opened much later when all this was old news so nobody bothered.
So I am left without seeing a truly remarkable jacket from the ones he made.

That's the reason why I am asking for a photo.

PLATON
05-10-2012, 09:47 PM
And about the leather "you know it's out there, closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before", you should say "closer to what YOU SEE on the screen. Your perception of that leather."

It doesn't matter who sees it. Me or anybody else.
I 'm just saying that I am sure there is out there a leather exactly the same (i.e. same animal, same tanning, same result) as the leather they made the jacket for the movie. (It's not like that leather was made once for the movie and nobody ever made the same leather ever again.)

Indiego Jones
05-10-2012, 10:08 PM
And about the leather "you know it's out there, closer to the film leather than any other leather we have seen before", you should say "closer to what YOU SEE on the screen. Your perception of that leather."

It doesn't matter who sees it. Me or anybody else.
I 'm just saying that I am sure there is out there a leather exactly the same (i.e. same animal, same tanning, same result) as the leather they made the jacket for the movie. (It's not like that leather was made once for the movie and nobody ever made the same leather ever again.)


Understood.

I did the leather research too for so long "...I even had it in my hand...". A beautiful thin ribby merino skin batch in a perfect dark brown shade... Got sold before I could raise the money.
Very frustrating.

But kept looking, and I think I found something a couple of weeks ago.
I'll let everybody know when arrives.
Regards.-

Gunslinger
05-11-2012, 02:31 AM
On the leather / grain issue, this is Italian-tanned New Zealand Merino X. I bought these skins from a leather merchant while wearing my Shrunken Lamb Nowak. They said the Nowak was basically the same process, but using Aussie leather - the "Dino" look is how the Aussie breed variant reacts.

This stuff looks very greyish / metallic / crystallised, even though it's meant to be black. The dude told me that's due to the hides being transported from very cold climate to hot Australia, and you could knock back the effect if you wanted to. It's very reflective and shiny, but is much more matt where its copped the most rain. One day I'll hit it with some acetone to knock it back, but I'm not in a rush.

Anyway, my points are that:
a) I think this is a very close match to the leather of the film jacket, and its a pity Tony's tannery couldn't have supplied NZ instead of Aussie merino hides.
b) It's also a very close match to Mac's vintage shots.
c) LIGHT is crazy. The way lenses distort light is crazy. Google "Polarisation effects", and check out how the grain appears and disappears from shot to shot in the images below. I can turn the camera 45 degrees on the same part of the jacket and have it look much shinier, or to have totally different grain. And then to the eye it's totally different again. Add to the movie film, and movie cameras, which not only have shutter / motion blur, but a specific shutter angle that reduces detail in a weird "filmic" way, and you have a recipe for weirdness. Apples and Oranges. That's part of the reason why film studios use stills rather than frame grabs for publicity. You don't get the same detail / quality due to the shutter because that sucker has to crank at 24fps.

You just don't get anywhere near this amount of visible detail on motion picture film:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105946.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105946.jpg)

From this:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105654.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105654.jpg)
to this:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105710.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105710.jpg)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105710.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105710.jpg)

It wouldn't surprise me if the practical level of visible, mostly smoothed-out detail is more like what we see in these thumbnails, when the reality is closer to the full res ones you click to.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105618.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105618.jpg) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-105804.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-105804.jpg) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-110212.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-110212.jpg) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-110144.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-110144.jpg) http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-110244.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-110244.jpg)

MH-modded pocket flap:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/th_D700-20120511-110044.jpg (http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/GunslingerAU/?action=view&current=D700-20120511-110044.jpg)