PDA

View Full Version : Raiders: Who made what and why?



crismans
07-26-2010, 08:30 PM
A post I made in another thread got me to thinking of how amazingly convoluted the history of this simple jacket from a 30 year old movie has become. I wonder why this is? From looking at other film jackets histories, you don't run into this type of switchbacks and doublespeak. Some jacket's histories are simply unknown (Wolverine's jacket from the first X-Men movie comes to mind. It's known that Vanson sent in a submission but the maker of the actual screen used jacket is unknown).

But why is the history of the Raiders jacket (or any Indy jacket sans Crystal Skull) so controversial and convoluted? I have some theories but I was wondering what the rest of you thought.

jasonalun
07-26-2010, 10:08 PM
I don't know much about other movie jackets or props but I'd say perhaps it's because at the time no one involved new it was going to be such a classic, they didn't even know if it would make it, and the fact that it's been almost 30 years and the memories of people involved has become rather faded, and what little documentation existed has been long lost. Just my two cents. Plus the changes in costume designer from Raiders to TOD affected things somewhat I'm sure, too. It lost a lot of continuity when that happened, I think. Imagine if Deborah Nadoolman had stayed for the series. Things would have been a lot different anyhow.

RCSignals
07-26-2010, 10:25 PM
The Temple of Doom jacket history is still convoluted, but at least it now has come down to it being either made by Cooper or made in house by Berman's. It does sort of have some Cooper A2 vibe to it, even in the almost faux collar stand.
Peter is out of the picture all together on that one it seems.
The LC has gone from being based on jackets made for Lee Keppler by the old 'flightsuits' company and sold to LFL, to being based on a jacket made by Cooper. It does have some resemblance to the post Temple of Doom Disney jacket.
Some have even started to say it was not made of lamb or sheepskin.

Gunslinger
07-26-2010, 10:57 PM
Anyone else think it odd that if Cooper made either the Raiders or ToD jacket, that he would have put the zipper on Euro-style? Or used Euro hardware? If you think about it, it's an absolute no-brainer that unless we are given something that indicates otherwise, that they were either made at Bermans or outsourced to someone local.

Anyone want to see if they can contact Deb...? ;D Like so many other stories, it's interesting how the history as it's painted has her being removed from the production at the same time as when other things such as "secret Cooper jackets" come into play so she can't be there to dispute it...

crismans
07-27-2010, 01:39 AM
Anyone else think it odd that if Cooper made either the Raiders or ToD jacket, that he would have put the zipper on Euro-style? Or used Euro hardware? If you think about it, it's an absolute no-brainer that unless we are given something that indicates otherwise, that they were either made at Bermans or outsourced to someone local.

Anyone want to see if they can contact Deb...? ;D Like so many other stories, it's interesting how the history as it's painted has her being removed from the production at the same time as when other things such as "secret Cooper jackets" come into play so she can't be there to dispute it...


I've wondered about this but could it be due to the way the machines were set up? I remember that the first versions of Dan's Vanson Wolverine jackets had the American style zipper placement and he had to work with them to change it over to where they would be the correct European version. Someone help me as to if I'm remembering this point right.

RCSignals
07-27-2010, 02:44 AM
I don't know what the deal is with zippers. It's not quite as simple as putting the pull on the opposite side as the zipper stop also has to be changed, and some zipper stops have a front and back as well, so pull can't just be turned around.

with Tony and some other US manufacturers it is as simple as specifying the zipper type. The CS jacket has the pull on the UK/European side
(I don't know why we keep saying it that way as it's really pretty much only the US that has the pull different)

Gunslinger
07-27-2010, 03:05 AM
I for one was just being polite to you Yank weirdos! ;D :P

Nefarious
07-27-2010, 05:46 PM
ah yes.....the dark abyss that is the movie jacket making business ;) most of the histories get muddied from that nice piece of paper that the jacket maker signs that confirms the terms of confidentiallity.

who made the wolverine xo jacket? good question....and hence, a good lawyer (as far as lawyers go ;D) behind it.

accoriding to what i've heard, wested made a killing on these jackets primarily because this piece of paper wasn't in place....and that nadoolman signed over all the creative property stuff over to peter. this ended deb's ride with indy, hence anthony powell.....and definitely took wested for a long adventure after that :)

correct me if i am wrong of course, as my source of information these days is quite questionable....info changes everyday......... ::)

Kt Templar
08-01-2010, 06:21 PM
The process for swapping a zipper around is simple, in theory, but has to be done before it is installed.

First remove the stop at the top, then remove the pull/slide box. You can then flip the whole zip over and refit the pull /slide box.

You need a new stop for the top and ideally the tool to crimp it, but pliers seem do the trick.

And then the zip is installed in the jacket.

I really don't get the deal with some wanting to have it on the non screen accurate side. Is it some weird macho American thing?

Darctic_jones
08-01-2010, 06:27 PM
I think all the confusing stuff came from 3rd party stories. I bet my shoes that if any of us got a hold of Nadoolman or Powell we'd get a whole different story;)

Kt Templar
08-01-2010, 06:45 PM
Would those shoes be Redwings, though?

Welcome to the madness Darctic.

Darctic_jones
08-01-2010, 07:03 PM
Would those shoes be Redwings, though?

Welcome to the madness Darctic.

No beaten up Nike's ! :D

neutronbomb
08-01-2010, 07:21 PM
I really don't get the deal with some wanting to have it on the non screen accurate side. Is it some weird macho American thing?


Yes. The whole American folklore story about how real men have it on the "man" side and women have it on the "women" side to make it easier for men. But, also because they are used to having it on the other side and trying to retrain the fingers and hands is like the proverbial two monkeys and a football.

I wanted SA though and now I actually prefer it on the "other" side.

crismans
08-01-2010, 11:26 PM
I really don't get the deal with some wanting to have it on the non screen accurate side. Is it some weird macho American thing?

We fear these changes! Next, you'll try to have us measure jacket lengths with some devilish system based on units of 10!

And yeah, I've gotten to where I much prefer Euro style zipper placement. Seems much more natural to me.

RCSignals
08-02-2010, 12:21 AM
As i said before, pretty much the whole world uses that style of zipper, except the US.
With zippers there is no such thing as 'womens side' or 'men's side' It's not like buttons

The Character
08-02-2010, 11:59 PM
yes it is .... they hate the Brits! lol

Kt Templar
08-03-2010, 12:08 AM
yes it is .... they hate the Brits! lol



Now now... it's not Brits, it's the English.

Plenty will claim to being Scots and Irish... Welsh, not so much... but English....

Welcome aboard TC.

The Character
08-04-2010, 02:21 PM
I apologise most sincerely for my hideous outburst ..... what was i thinking!

bigrex
08-08-2010, 09:31 PM
A post I made in another thread got me to thinking of how amazingly convoluted the history of this simple jacket from a 30 year old movie has become. I wonder why this is? From looking at other film jackets histories, you don't run into this type of switchbacks and doublespeak. Some jacket's histories are simply unknown (Wolverine's jacket from the first X-Men movie comes to mind. It's known that Vanson sent in a submission but the maker of the actual screen used jacket is unknown).

But why is the history of the Raiders jacket (or any Indy jacket sans Crystal Skull) so controversial and convoluted? I have some theories but I was wondering what the rest of you thought.


Maybe because the people involved won't just tell you they can't remember or they don't know? Everyone seems to know what went on, and say it with conviction, they do believe what they are saying I have no doubt, but when the stories are all contradictory, we begin to see the truth, at least the extent of truth that people's memories are not infallible and not everyone can be right. That's the story of life, humans ain't perfect, so we end up with a chimera of a story constructed from various recollections, an undulating and convoluted mysterious mess, some of which must be an unintended work of fiction.

Gunslinger
08-08-2010, 10:54 PM
Yep. It's the "Rashomon" effect. It's a great movie, btw!

crismans
08-09-2010, 12:34 AM
Maybe because the people involved won't just tell you they can't remember or they don't know? Everyone seems to know what went on, and say it with conviction, they do believe what they are saying I have no doubt, but when the stories are all contradictory, we begin to see the truth, at least the extent of truth that people's memories are not infallible and not everyone can be right. That's the story of life, humans ain't perfect, so we end up with a chimera of a story constructed from various recollections, an undulating mysterious mess, some of which must be an unintended work of fiction.


That is certainly a possibility (and probably the most likely, when you get down to it). Without naming names, there seems to have been a concerted effort to disavow accounts of those who were there. I'm thinking of Nadoolman in particular. When I'm confronted with accounts of those I know to be involved with contradictory statements that have no backing in proof. I'm going with the person I know was there.

bigrex
08-11-2010, 05:30 PM
Maybe because the people involved won't just tell you they can't remember or they don't know? Everyone seems to know what went on, and say it with conviction, they do believe what they are saying I have no doubt, but when the stories are all contradictory, we begin to see the truth, at least the extent of truth that people's memories are not infallible and not everyone can be right. That's the story of life, humans ain't perfect, so we end up with a chimera of a story constructed from various recollections, an undulating mysterious mess, some of which must be an unintended work of fiction.


That is certainly a possibility (and probably the most likely, when you get down to it). Without naming names, there seems to have been a concerted effort to disavow accounts of those who were there. I'm thinking of Nadoolman in particular. When I'm confronted with accounts of those I know to be involved with contradictory statements that have no backing in proof. I'm going with the person I know was there.


Oh, I agree, I just think the main problem begins when you have more than one person who was there (aka Spielberg & Noodleman, Cooper & Botwright, etc.) and you get two divergent tales. Do I automatically think one is a liar? No, I just think they honestly are all over fifty and time has a way with erasing details that were not important to you at the time. Two people are entitled to different perceptions and perspectives concerning events, but that can't account for all the discrepancies.

Raskolnikov
08-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Yep. It's the "Rashomon" effect. It's a great movie, btw!

Yeah, even phantoms seem to have 'memory failures' :D. That's a great idea.
Rshomon, Yohimbo, Sanjuro, any of those is great.
But, sorry guys. Back to Raiders...

Gunslinger
08-11-2010, 10:35 PM
..."Seven Samurai" - best movie of all time.

crismans
08-11-2010, 11:02 PM
..."Seven Samurai" - best movie of all time.


It is terrific. I've got Yojimbo but haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

Gunslinger
08-30-2010, 05:26 AM
You know, it really does seem like the story of the Raiders jacket is VERY simple:

From http://filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2185&sid=7a126a808e4640dfa271527e27d61639

faststreetsofhongkong
08-30-2010, 06:25 PM
Thanks for posting that link ... I am not the kind of guy who reads every thread, but that seems to kind of nail it to me.

So, my question: which version of the jacket was the one that Tony was making?

RCSignals
08-30-2010, 07:16 PM
..

So, my question: which version of the jacket was the one that Tony was making?


The version seen most throughout the movie, but not the one most worn by the Hero. Same pattern.

Also it was the one with the intact left pull zipper.

crismans
08-31-2010, 12:34 AM
I keep coming back to this "version" and wondering why was it discarded or at least been shown in an unfavorable light? It seems to be the simplest (which, while not always a good indicator, is certainly a "beacon") and why shouldn't the costume designer be the one to know the most about the costume?

bigrex
08-31-2010, 07:33 AM
Interesting read, it would also be interesting to see if any of RW's recollections sync with what Deborah Nadoolman is saying, essentially that the first Raiders jacket was fashioned by the since deceased Monte Berman. Maybe this is the third jacket maker and why there are so many conflicting stories told especially by other jacket makers who are still alive? I don't know. :-[

Gunslinger
08-31-2010, 09:40 AM
To me, I can see that the chain of events that seems to add up the most is that after the failure of the first jackets, Deborah Nadoolman and Monte Berman make the first jacket (the Bantu Wind) by hand - it has a low yoke and a left handed zipper. (Of course it does - it was made by an English person.) It could be made out of any leather. Then Nadoolman leaves for France, delivers the jacket to the La Rochelle dockside set and then flies back to the US, and Berman either a) makes some or all subsequent jackets in-house, or b) outsources them to Peter / Leather Concessionaires. This results in at least 3 new jackets, made from either shrunken lamb or something practically identical to it. Whoever makes these jackets changes the design slightly to incorporate a higher yoke, and modifies the straps, etc. slightly. The first of these new jackets appear at the first day of studio shooting - Imam's house, and the other 2 follow.

I could be wrong, but I can't for the life of me see how there could have been any involvement from Neil Cooper. It fits in no way - the testimonies, the circumstances, the budget, the details of the jackets. Nothing.

Kt Templar
08-31-2010, 09:52 AM
Before the idea of Monte making anything takes hold. He was big boss man, the money. Really would not have been hands on on this project.

Noel was the manager on this one.

Gunslinger
08-31-2010, 11:11 AM
Ok, fair call.

neutronbomb
08-31-2010, 04:44 PM
The problem I'm running into is a disconnect with the various forms of information that have been passed around regarding the number of jackets that were provided to wardrobe/costume for ROTLA.

Do we have anything directly from Noel Howard or Peter on this? And I mean directly from their own mouths that we can be sure came from them. I would hope Peter could remember if he made and provided 14 jackets to Raiders or more like 2 or 3. The story has changed and backtracked and warped and twisted regarding how many jackets were provided and Peter's role in it; even in just the last 6 months. From Peter made 14 to Peter made zero to Peter made 3 that were back up stunt jackets with patterns copied off the mock-up jacket and never actually meeting Ford or fitting him. The story morphs practically daily to the point I don't actually know what Peter confirms himself. KT have you ever heard from Peter himself how many jackets he provided for Raiders.

The issue I'm having is no matter how I look at it at this point, after watching the entire movie where we see the jacket several times in the last few weeks frame by frame, there is at most a maximum of 4 jackets used in the movie. I really think Peter could help us out here if he remembers any details about this from so long ago. This way if he mentions he knows for certain he made a dozen or so jackets for the movie, then we could know about evaluating the whole second order of 10 jackets that were never used story. Or if he made one prototype and presented it and then was asked to make changes for his follow-up jackets of which there were 2 or three or whatever, we would be able to evaluate that too.

All I'm saying is I for one would really appreciate knowing from Peter himself how it went down and how many he made even if it's delivered through KT or someone with a close working relationship with him. And if Peter's already told us, then I'm sorry for having lost it through all the mess of contradictions that have gone on. Which is one of the reasons I am so excited about this site. No games. Ask honest questions I'm sure, but no screwy games.

Anyway, it's been pretty interesting seeing the way they used the jackets in the film and it would be interesting to know which came first the chicken or the egg......er...the Iman's or the Main. Kurt and I likely will battle this out in the tracking jackets thread, but what I'm seeing 100% with absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind is at Ellstree the Imans was worn by Ford in the following scenes:

1. The Iman's
2. The entrance to the temple and spider scene
3. The don't go into the light scene
4. The escape through the shutting door (before lockdown) and reaching back through to grab the whip scene
5. The pick up idol from the ground dead helper scene
6. The running from the boulder scene

The main hero is used in the following Ellstree scenes by Ford:
1. Jumping the pit the first time
2. Entering the temple Chamber, crossing the floor, grabbing the idol, fleeing the chamber
3. Jumping the pit the second time

I wonder if the sequence of when they shot those scenes has anything to do with which jacket Ford is wearing. There is definitely a story there. Seems like maybe they shot the Iman's scenes before they shot the other Temple scenes. I'm not that deep into the actual filming schedule of what the order of scenes shot at Ellstree were. But, it seems clear that at some point they decided to switch the main hero Ford wears from the Iman's to the main hero for the rest of the major parts of the movie. So to me it would make sense that they made the switch and shot the idol grab, dart in the wood walk across the floor, pit jumping scenes and then moved on to the WOS, Raven Bar, and then to Tunisia for the Flying Wing and first half of the truck cab fight scene. Would love to get others who are vastly superior with the shooting schedule information input on the shooting schedule for Ellstree to discuss this more as it seems to be an interesting topic to explore with regards of who made and which one is the first Raiders jacket.

crismans
08-31-2010, 07:15 PM
Seems like maybe they shot the Iman's scenes before they shot the other Temple scenes. I'm not that deep into the actual filming schedule of what the order of scenes shot at Ellstree were.

The Imam's scenes were the first studio shots. The temple was next.

I've been putting off a couple of projects one of which is going through Rinzer's book (which I think is a good source) and putting together a shooting schedule. I'll get down to that. I think that's a tool that could help with all of this.

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
09-08-2010, 03:09 AM
Hello,

I know a lot of you have different theories about who made which jacket(s) for Raiders and for what reason... and I thought a thread on the periphery of the new threads (thanks NB) would be helpful to make a logical timeline and debate the merits of differing viewpoints.


For me the most mysterious part of the origins of the ROTLA jackets is the 'BW still' jacket because it is from another planet compared to the others. It is clearly an early submission to be improved upon. In the A5 interview Deborah Nadoolman says she designed, made, and distressed the first jacket used. She says "Bermans gave it to, Bermans made it, that's all I know, right?"

So... she and B&N get credit for designing the (first) jacket, basically? For all the things she recalls about the days before shooting, there is nothing about working with anyone else (like Cooper) or anything about a cloth mock-up. Why give credit for something they contracted out? Allegedly SS was pissed about the Wilsons and DN in general by the time she had a jacket to show, so it is no surprise that he had other wheels in motion. LC was supposed to make 11 or 12 jackets at some point, right? I doubt that any other jacket makers were on the payroll of this cheap and dirty film at this point, especially for more damned jackets. If LC made the jackets from the prototype once they arrived in England--- that was a serious last ditch effort to get it right. I believe a couple of almost identical jackets were chosen and distressed with zero time to spare.


IMVHO, that is. Feel free to rip it to shreds :)


Cheers, H

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 03:43 AM
Yeah, as far as I can figure that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Nadoolman's story is pretty straightforward and does read that there were no other parties like Cooper involved (or why would Lucas have given in after the period of the diamond ring exchange?). So the first one is made in-house, then the job is flicked over to LC for the subsequent jackets. Seems very simple to me.

Tyderium
09-08-2010, 03:58 AM
Yep, I suppose the disconnect is that SS said he spent one night supervising NC making a jacket from the cloth mock-up.
Where or if this jacket appears in the film is another story.
Feel free to rip this to shreds also ;)

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 04:07 AM
Well, that someone who has been caught telling fibs before said that SS said that he spent one night supervising...

But enough of that. :angel: Personally I just can't see it being true - makes zero sense given so many contexts, apart from a need to keep reinventing the facts if you know what I mean.

Tyderium
09-08-2010, 05:54 AM
Well, a lot of years of contradiction, murky water, dead end paths and sometime agenda surrounding this hunt for information about a costume jacket. I suppose the fun is in the search rather than knowing every answer. Maybe we will make good inroads here Gun. :)

Kt Templar
09-08-2010, 07:32 AM
Well, Noel and Peter stated that all the (Raiders) jackets were made by Leather Concessionaires. Berman's contracted out their leather garments. Lee (Noel's assistant) and the company that evolved from the defunct MBA still uses Peter today, Les Mis and Grease etc (West End stage productions).

Peter was involved in the meetings with Nadoolan/Kelly Kimball. As far as either of them would have been concerned he was a B&N person.

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 08:16 AM
Well, a lot of years of contradiction, murky water, dead end paths and sometime agenda surrounding this hunt for information about a costume jacket. I suppose the fun is in the search rather than knowing every answer. Maybe we will make good inroads here Gun. :)


Yep, but we'd better be careful or we'll "solve" so much we'll be left with nothing to discuss but Indy's undies. ??? :'(

crismans
09-08-2010, 07:52 PM
Well, Noel and Peter stated that all the (Raiders) jackets were made by Leather Concessionaires. Berman's contracted out their leather garments. Lee (Noel's assistant) and the company that evolved from the defunct MBA still uses Peter today, Les Mis and Grease etc (West End stage productions).

Peter was involved in the meetings with Nadoolan/Kelly Kimball. As far as either of them would have been concerned he was a B&N person.


Has Peter every said anything about the BW jacket? The other two jackets (yes, I'm convinced) that Ford wears have very similar patterns, to the point that they appear to have been made by the same maker. The BW, on the other hand, is very different if you're talking about details. This has always led me to believe that it's feasible that it was made by a different maker.

So, due to the tight constraints, could B and N have made a jacket in house and then sent the rest of the order to LC?


And, as an aside, I think that, considering the track record in regards in this jacket, it's best that we take everything we've been told with a grain of salt and start from ground zero.

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 08:02 PM
I'd say the other three jackets besides the Bantu Wind?

Is it not possible the Bantu Wind jacket was made by someone else or in house by B+N?

crismans
09-08-2010, 08:03 PM
Is it not possible the Bantu Wind jacket was made by someone else or in house by B+N?


Right. That's what I was suggesting.

Kt Templar
09-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Why engage a contractor and use him for 30 years on many, many films if they could do the work in house.

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 08:23 PM
That's a good question Kt. Could it be they had capacity to make one jacket? I think Peter even suggested they did when he said the Noel Howard Temple of Doom jacket was made in house by B+N?

If not does Peter know why the Bantu Wind jacket has it's different/unique features?

Kt Templar
09-08-2010, 08:34 PM
That conversation was slightly different to how it's normally interpreted. I looked over the NH jacket with him. Now, around that time Peter got blacklisted from Berman's because a Eon went direct to him for one of the Bonds rather than through Berman's as usual. Possibly, they had another leather contractor at the time or someone in house.

A few of things jumped out that seemed to support european maker for the ToD jacket. All have been dismissed, but I think they are significant. 1) British sided zipper. 2) European 'Solide' buckles. 3) British 'Newey' snaps.

Peter says that the jacket is not one of his. It doesn't look like a Cooper either.

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 09:36 PM
I agree KT - I brought the same point up a few days ago of how do we know Cooper even made the ToD jacket?

Re why would Bermans have made a jacket inhouse for Raiders? Aren't they a costume house? What if they had people who were predominantly designers, not leather makers. But under the pump, they design and then produce the first jacket. Then, like the normal situation, they flick the rest to the people that normally handle leather garment production.

Maybe you have more insight on this KT, but everything Peter has said over the years hints that as a norm, his company produces jackets, not designs them. Those designs have to come from somewhere. And it makes sense those designers could bash out an actual jacket if need be.

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 09:49 PM
Those are good points Kt. Although it has also been suggested the zippers were replaced.
The Newey snaps are British but not uncommon here and used on many items made in Canada for years.
The Solide buckles are interesting. I know I've seen Solide buckles used on old British made clothing (waiscoats mostly) I wonder too if those buckles predate the jacket in manufacture by many years. Solide was from what i can tell a company in Paris, that hasn't existed for many years. Maybe someone can find better info on it.
What I'm getting at is maybe the buckles used were old stock that someone thought would just work well for the jacket. Until someone comes up with another Temple of Doom jacket we can only guess they were all like teh Noel Howard one as far as hardware.
The Temple of Doom jacket shares some features with the Bantu wind jacket. The low yoke, the aligned arm/yoke seam, the shallow/short vent opening. Maybe more? I'm not suggesting the BW is the Temple of Doom, just noting similarities.

But back to Raiders. Does Peter have an explanation for the Bantu Wind jacket differences? Maybe he'll join in the discussion.

Kt Templar
09-08-2010, 09:56 PM
A lot of the time Wested's starting point is a spoken brief or a very simple sketch.

They draw up the pattern and make it. They have racks and racks old patterns to draw on for reference. This is how the Raiders jacket came about.

The people who were in the room have been reported to be Noel, Peter and either Kelly or Deborah and I have heard perhaps Lee. That is the origin point.

I've seen the brief they had a couple of years ago for the Davros jacket for Doctor Who. Very simplistic a single page sketch.

I don't have an answer on the Bantu. It could just be one of the batch they made, maybe the yoke was cut wrong or the machinist had a bad day!

All the points you make about the NH are extras and what ifs. The facts are in the jacket. All the other stuff is conjecture. You need to add information and scenarios to make the other avenues work.

RCSignals
09-08-2010, 10:04 PM
My notes about the NH ToD hardware are just observations. They point out that the jacket could have other then UK origin, and I agree that all has to be proven. I don't think that the Solide buckles alone point to a French origin of the entire jacket. Someone else can work on that.
As I said until another genuine Temple of Doom jacket turns up for comparison we have to assume they all had the same hardware I think.

Does anyone disagree with the small similarities between the Bantu wind jacket and Temple of Doom jacket?
What they mean or indicate is anyones guess. They are just another observation.

Gunslinger
09-08-2010, 10:12 PM
If the rumoured rental agreement was in place with Bermans, maybe the BW jacket ended up back there, and along with their original patterns they possibly still has on file, were used by them in-house to replicate the jacket for ToD.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Well.......well......well................where to begin with this. Let me begin with saying that this is a long message, and may be a bit scattered as there is so much info that it would take forever and a day to type it up. So here are the highlights.

First off lets dispel an issue. There has been a person on another board who has been attempting to revamping the history of this jacket. This person has been caught many times making up stories that NEVER pan out, and when they don't this person turns the tables to try and appear as if he was "given wrong information." Forget this person exists when it comes to factual data in regards to anything Indy related. That being said......I am no expert on all things Indy related, and I do not claim in anyway to have inside knowledge or the inside track on events. I am presenting what I know, and how I know it based on more than two decades of research on the subject of Indiana Jones costumes/ props. My reason for the research is simple. I have been a collector of the films items since 1988, and each piece needed to be authenticated beyond the provenance that was given. I am not affiliated, nor have ever been with any company that produced Indiana Jones products nor any persons who may have participated with on location shoots, nor wardrobe. Therefore my interest is nothing more than authenticating original pieces used in the various films.

A little of my background. I have been collecting Indiana Jones movie costumes and props since 1988. I have done a ton of research on the issue at a time when the materials in writing were readily available for view, and when the market of forged pieces was at an all time minimum. I was born and raised in Southern California, and my family has been involved in the film industry in one capacity or another since I was born 37 years ago.

First: In my search to authenticate certain pieces in my collection I have received tons of info in relation to most things Indy costume/ prop related. I am not claiming to be anything other than a fan/ collector who will provide all the details I have in writing on this very post, which will allow you the reader to research and confirm on your own.

The Indiana Jones jacket for ROTLA was designed by Deb in conjunction with Western Costumes Co. Together they came up with the final screen used results. There is nothing in writing, nor in any interviews that would support "late night" jacket making sessions, or double companies involved on a jacket simultaneously. Remember ROTLA was another movie, with a VERY low budget. Professional people and companies demand payment AND credit in the film if they have been hired for a project. That means they also have to get paid for their work, so unless there is something in writing, or proof of payments made to these "special parties" then it did not happen. In cases like B&N using Leather Concessionaires for their leather work still falls into the same category, as B&N were the hired parties for the project. In the process of designing clothing many fittings/ patterns are developed to get the overall look, feel, and function of the garment. In this case a few cloth mock-ups were made for fitting, and design. In the end NONE of the cloth mock-ups appear in the film. This has been said by Deb, and by Western Costumes. Between 1994- 1998 I visited Western many times, and was able to look through their costume records for all three of the Indy films. The records were available by permission in Westerns library. That library is used by students, and other designers for research on other projects etc then and now. Recently I along with another member here tried to view the records for ROTLA, but were unsuccessful as the records that Western kept, had been moved to the Margret Herrick Film Library in Hollywood. We contacted the library and were told that all records I relations to ROTLA have since been moved to Lucas Films Archives. A call to Lelia French (Head of Archives for LFL) at the Archives confirms that they have records in regards to the films wardrobe, but there is no access granted by ANYONE to view them without authorization from Lucas himself. Contrary to some comments by a certain person on the other boards, the Archives are highly restricted and no employee other than auth Archives staff have access to the facility. Even vendors like Sideshow, or Mater Replicas have no access. Each vewing is made by appointment for a specific item in question, and only when approved by Lucas or his represenatives. Each person who has these appointments is logged so a complete record of their visit is documented. In other words there are no late night visits, and no unrestricted access.

Many people do not know that when a film is being made copies of all records are made and given to the primary entities that have a financial interest in the film. These items can range from complete prop/ costume inventories to "blue books." A blue book is a book used for accounts payable. It is a coded inventory of all things related to the production in question. In and of itself its useless unless you have the key book for the billing codes. Blue Books DO NOT contain written descriptions like "Harrison Ford jacket to be billed to Neil Cooper etc etc." To my knowledge Steven Spielberg would have no reason to have one of these supposed "blue books" considering he is not involved in LFL nor Paramounts billing for the film. His need would end at making sure he is on time/ budget from his advisers. Anything is possible, but I am not aware of any Directors keeping this information for prosperity. Usually its photos, or a prop/ costume from a film at the most. Even this is rare. For this discussion the company Paramount Films will be used. I contacted Paramount Films in 1999 about obtaining info in relation to a ROTLA shirt in my collection that I was authenticating, and was told that those records if still existing were moved to UCLA for storage. I came to find out that UCLA is a major storage area for Paramount, MGM, and Warner Brothers Studios in regards to documents etc. Most studios have a 10 year rule in relation to records of films. That rule is simple. Records are kept on premise for 10 years. After that time if deemed worthy to keep they are placed into "deep storage" at a facility like UCLA or simply destroyed. Simple as that. I was not able to personally get hold of the records at UCLA as I did not have the proper research credentials, so I contacted a fellow collector by the name of Larry McQueen who owns "The Collection." The Collection is a large movie wardrobe exhibit that travels on occasion thought out the country and Europe. Larry is also used as a consultant by the studios for many issues in regards to conservation, and authenticated pieces that are recently acquired back by the studio. Larry assisted me in getting the info needed for the shirt. The records that were housed at UCLA have been recently moved to USC, so I believe that what is left of Paramounts costume record inventory/ accounts payables is now located there.

When I was viewing information at Western Costumes I distinctly saw that the billing for all of Indy's wardrobe was billed to B&N and one billing to Wilson's Leather. That's right. B&N......not Neil Cooper, not Peter Boatwright directly. The records of payment rendered were to B&N and Wilsons. We all know the Wilson's fiasco as dictated by Deb so there is no issue, and that B&N used Leather Concessionaires to do their leather work. That is no secret, and does not in anyway detract from the original designers of the jacket. The number of jackets were as follows (based on my notes from that day that I still have)

Harrison Ford Jackets: 1-4 (Hero) 5-9 (Stunt)
Harrison Ford Hats: 1-3 (Hero) 4-10 (Stunt) #2 used for publicity shooting
Harrison Ford Shirts: 1-11 (Hero) 12-24 (Stunt)
Harrison Ford Pants: 1-11 (Hero) 12-24 (Stunt)
Harrison Ford Boots: 1-3 (Hero) 4-9 (Stunt)
Harrison Ford Whip: 1-2 (Hero) 3-4 (Stunt) Whips to be returned
** All prototype costumes retained by Western Costumes Co.**

All jackets in the film were leather, there were no cloth versions used period. Were all the jackets that Harrison wore exactly the same? I have no idea, but what I can say based on collecting film wardrobe is this. All like clothing is made to "look" identical. However there can be numerous differences based on functionality (stunt vs static needs). So a jacket that Harrison was wearing when the squib is blown out of his arm, may look the same, but may be altered in such a way that the need of that specific shot dictated. Also bear in mind that on any set on any day you will always have wardrobe people on standby ready to make repairs/ changes to a garment on the spot. So if the jacket came out of B&N one way, by the time the film is wrapped that same jacket could have had many alterations by the end changing its overall pattern/ appearance. This is a simple fact.


Now I do not have copies of any info related to the jacket, sorry. All I have are my original notes back from the day. Had I been clarivoient I could have predicted a single person trying to rewrite known history, and I would have been better prepared :angel:. When viewing info at Western you are not allowed to make copies of their documents unless you were working on a SAG production with proper billing for Western to use, or as an active student with permission from Western themselves. You can take what I am telling you anyway you see fit, however in this message I detailed the entire trail of records that I know of, and every contact is verifiable, and you can call yourself using the same sources I have. Below I will include the contact info for all but Lucas Archives as I am not permitted to give that TN. However if you call the Merrick Library the assigned Research Libraian may be able to provide it to you upon request.

Contact Info:

1. Western Costumes Co:
11041 Vanowen Street
North Hollywood, CA 91605

818.760.0900
Fax us: 818.508.2190

2. Margaret Herrick Library
Fairbanks Center for Motion Picture Study
333 South La Cienega Blvd.
Beverly Hills, California 90211 U.S.A.

(310) 247-3036 extension 200

3. UCLA School of Theater, Film and Television
102 East Melnitz Hall
Box 951622
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1622

310 206-8441
310 825-0980

4. USC Film School
University Park, SCA 465
Los Angeles, CA 90089-2211
213.740.2804 Phone
213.740.7682 FaxFilm School

Everything I have typed here can be verified by another member of this board should they chose to discuss their inquiries into the matter here. For anyone who takes up the mantle from here, please advise us all of your progress, and good luck!

On a side note. For a fee the Margret Herrick Library will make copies of costume records and their photos for you upon request for a fee. I have done this with many costume pieces in my collection non Indy related as well. This is available so long as the records are in their possesion. This is how one of the few Maltese Falcon props was authenticated. Hope this helps.

djd
09-09-2010, 01:36 PM
What a great post. Thank you

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 01:48 PM
What a great post. Thank you


Your welcome. I am sorry if the posting is a bit scattered. Sometimes when typing these long posts one can loose their original point, or scatter the info. Please understand I am not claiming to be an expert, however I believe it is important for all of us, regardless of motive to have info that can be traced. If for nothing else other then verification of the posters comments. This is a sad opinion always lost at the other boards.

jasonalun
09-09-2010, 02:51 PM
Yes, thank you Hollywood, for this informative, fact-filled post. This will allow those who are interested to do their own digging and research, which is just what a gear forum should be for. ;D Thanks for sharing your knowledge in such a practical, enlightening way. I suspect some phone lines may be getting buzzed after this post. ;)

jasonalun
09-09-2010, 02:55 PM
I also appreciate you sharing the bit about wardrobe people changing the garments on-the-spot. That's something I don't think we (or at least I) gave much consideration in trying to pin down the jacket designs. That it is possible that the same jacket could end up in another scene modified in some way really adds a new dimension (or should I say throws a wrench in! :D) to our search for the separate jackets used in the films!

Todd
09-09-2010, 02:56 PM
Hollywood, thanks for saying "I don't know" when you don't know.

Todd
09-09-2010, 03:04 PM
Yes, wardrobe people on set!!!! "Hey, this is wrinkling weird, can we do something about that?" "This is poking me." Very, very true. They are there to tend to every whim of the DP, director, continuity person, and actor.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:06 PM
I also appreciate you sharing the bit about wardrobe people changing the garments on-the-spot. That's something I don't think we (or at least I) gave much consideration in trying to pin down the jacket designs. That it is possible that the same jacket could end up in another scene modified in some way really adds a new dimension (or should I say throws a wrench in! :D) to our search for the separate jackets used in the films!


Your welcome.......and sorry ??? A great all be it minor example of this practice is seen in the stunt jackets used by Terry Leonard. When B&N delivered the jackets none had the buckles sewen down, nor the pockets sewen down. During production the on site wardrobe people made this alteration to the at least his, and another stunt jacket from the film. So there you have it.

A more recent example is the hats from the newest film. When Steve sent the fedoras to Western Costumes (once again the hub for the film's costumes), Bernie requested that Western dye/ tint some of the liners, and some had the liner removed. The hats were also re shapped both prior too, and during production. I am sure Steve can confirm this too.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:08 PM
Hollywood, thanks for saying "I don't know" when you don't know.
Yes, wardrobe people on set!!!! "Hey, this is wrinkling weird, can we do something about that?" "This is poking me." Very, very true. They are there to tend to every whim of the DP, director, continuity person, and actor.


The truth is the truth, no sense in trying to be something your not. In the end you always get caught. And yes your right, whatever needs to be done to satisfy whom ever on set, is the job they are there to do. Obvioulsy some changes have to be sent back to Western Costumes. I don't think too many on set wardrobe people have "all" the equipment on stand by. Since Western Costumes was the hub for all things wardrobe related (inventory, tracking, reproduction, and alterations/ repairs) they did a considerable amount of work during the location shooting too.

Kt Templar
09-09-2010, 03:15 PM
But the hub for this film was Berman's.... stuff only went back to WC after production wrapped?

IfAdventureHasAName
09-09-2010, 03:18 PM
First off lets dispel an issue. There has been a person on another board who has been attempting to revamping the history of this jacket. This person has been caught many times making up stories that NEVER pan out, and when they don't this person turns the tables to try and appear as if he was "given wrong information." Forget this person exists when it comes to factual data in regards to anything Indy related.

:laugh: I love it. Thank you, Fortune and Glory member "Hollywood".

And thank you for providing the contact information. As Fortune and Glory member "Dr. Jones" stated, the phone lines to those places will probably see an increase in call volume.

Thanks, again. :)

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:23 PM
But the hub for this film was Berman's.... stuff only went back to WC after production wrapped?


That is not correct. Western was the hub from day one to completion. They were responsible for maintaining, and shipping all wardrobe for the film, not just Harrison's. B&N were only consigned to fabricate some of the character wardrobe and nothing else. Also bear in mind that Western copied some of the wardrobe to create additions to those ordered from B&N. Case in point. Harrisons Wells Lamont gloves were copied off the pair supplied by the crew at Western. They were not copied by B&N, and they were not purchased off the rack at that time. This info is based on the records at Western Costumes at the time I was able to view them.

Kt Templar
09-09-2010, 03:32 PM
Only going by what is sensible. Shipping between Elstree or Tunisia and London makes a heck of a lot more sense than between California and Elstree.

Todd
09-09-2010, 03:32 PM
So, let me get this straight - B&N was subcontracted by Western Costumes to provide some wardrobe. (Didn't DN say in A5's interview that she left LA with all of HF's wardrobe? It was all done except for the jackets?) The Leather Concessionaires was subcontracted by B&N? I think I get it.... maybe not.

When you say the gloves were copied by the ones provided by the crew at WC, do you mean they were copied at WC from the gloves provided by the crew on the movie set?

Todd
09-09-2010, 03:36 PM
Shipping between Elstree or Tunisia and London makes a heck of a lot more sense than between California and Elstree.

Well, from the A5 interview, I think she said the costume department set up an office at B&N to operate out of - rented space. The wardrobe from the USA would have been managed out of that office - is this right?

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:41 PM
So, let me get this straight - B&N was subcontracted by Western Costumes to provide some wardrobe. (Didn't DN say in A5's interview that she left LA with all of HF's wardrobe? It was all done except for the jackets?) The Leather Concessionaires was subcontracted by B&N? I think I get it.... maybe not.

When you say the gloves were copied by the ones provided by the crew at WC, do you mean they were copied at WC from the gloves provided by the crew on the movie set?


Not exactly. My understanding is that B&N were hired to create the costumes AFTER DN and Western had finalized the patterns/ materials etc. As for the gloves, yes according to Westerns records they were sent to Western for coying. I don't know if the ones in the film were the loaned pair, or the Western creations. I can tell you that there were certainly more than one pair, and I am sure that Western would have made several pairs not just one. I would seriously doubt that the guy on set who they borrowed them from did not have two pairs there when they asked for them. We know of atleast one pair used for Harrison as the Hero , and the other a stunt pair. Western has them billed in the records, so as far as I am concerned why they were made, or how they were shipped makes no difference to me. It was still done, and that matters.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:44 PM
Shipping between Elstree or Tunisia and London makes a heck of a lot more sense than between California and Elstree.

Well, from the A5 interview, I think she said the costume department set up an office at B&N to operate out of - rented space. The wardrobe from the USA would have been managed out of that office - is this right?


Yes I believe that is correct. However I believe at that point she was basicly doing wardrobe "logistics" working with Watts out of that office to coordinate between set, and Western. I don't believe too much work was done there with the wardrobe, other then alterations etc that could not be done by Western due to schedule or shooting demand. I am sure Western most likely used that office for shipping, and as a "off site" wardrobe office. Makes sense. I think its a bit of both worlds. Some done at Western, some at B&N, but still Western was the managing authority of wardrobe records etc.

Bare in mind I am not saying that this is the fact, I am only basing my opinion on my research, the info provided by Western Costumes, and their actions what appears to be their normal practice, and the with the most recent IJ film, this seems to be the process used for all the IJ films, which is identical. I know the process was the same for TOD, and that came from both Western, and first hand from Anthony Powell. All they did was follow the process from ROTLA. So it makes sense to me that the process in place was standard.

Todd
09-09-2010, 03:47 PM
So, KT, I guess it all in how you define "hub".

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 03:51 PM
So, KT, I guess it all in how you define "hub".


Yeah I think that is a fair statement. My apologies KT, I did not distinguish between the two either. 8)

Todd
09-09-2010, 04:13 PM
Hollywood, I see you've edited your previous posts for clarification. I think I get the picture now.

And the "Raiders" workings are your assumption based on what you know about the workings of the sequels, correct?

Kt Templar
09-09-2010, 04:17 PM
Thank you for your insights.

I hope TC can pose the question to Robert to get his view on things.

Would like to know how the costume for ToD transpired too.

And importantly what WAS Coopers involvement in that!

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Hollywood, I see you've edited your previous posts for clarification. I think I get the picture now.

And the "Raiders" workings are your assumption based on what you know about the workings of the sequels, correct?


Sort of. I am basing the info on what Western Costumes records showed in terms of billings, shipping, and in house work. Also I am using the process that was in place from the other 3 films, the word of Anthony Powell for TOD, and how Western handles wardrobe for other film projects. They appear to maintain the same patterns. What was done for ROTLA was not anything new for costuming in off studio property. The forumla was already in place.

If anyone has other info that can be verified to some level independently I would love to know as well.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 05:00 PM
First off lets dispel an issue. There has been a person on another board who has been attempting to revamping the history of this jacket. This person has been caught many times making up stories that NEVER pan out, and when they don't this person turns the tables to try and appear as if he was "given wrong information." Forget this person exists when it comes to factual data in regards to anything Indy related.

:laugh: I love it. Thank you, Fortune and Glory member "Hollywood".

And thank you for providing the contact information. As Fortune and Glory member "Dr. Jones" stated, the phone lines to those places will probably see an increase in call volume.

Thanks, again. :)


LOL! Good I hope so!!!!!!

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 06:16 PM
http://www.insideskywalkerranch.com/prologue.htm

The above link details the tour that a fan had taken of Lucas Films, and the Ranch. This experience was also the same experience one could have on the private tours that used to be organized through LFL Public Affairs. I went on almost the exact same tour myself. The reason for posting is to give fellow members a glimpse of how the Archived works. Since I have moved to Ohio, I am not sure if LFL extensions like the Presidio or other buildings still have visitor areas, but if they do I highly recommend a visit. Its great to see these costumes/ props in person first hand, and to experience a bit of the Lucas magic.

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 08:10 PM
When I was viewing information at Western Costumes I distinctly saw that the billing for all of Indy's wardrobe was billed to B&N and one billing to Wilson's Leather. That's right. B&N......not Neil Cooper, not Peter Boatwright directly. The records of payment rendered were to B&N and Wilsons. We all know the Wilson's fiasco as dictated by Deb so there is no issue, and that B&N used Leather Concessionaires to do their leather work. That is no secret, and does not in anyway detract from the original designers of the jacket. The number of jackets were as follows (based on my notes from that day that I still have)

Harrison Ford Jackets: 1-4 (Hero) 5-9 (Stunt)


I just wanted to thank you for sharing the information Hollywood that you have acquired from your own research. To ensure I'm understanding it correctly would you mind elaborating a bit more on the topic of the billing.

1. "Billing for all of Indy's wardrobe was billed to B&N and one billing to Wilson's Leather"

Is the term billing regarding Western Costume making payments to B&N and Wilson's Leather or asking for payment? I read it as Western Costume billed B&N for their (Western Costumes) services asking for payment, but then it doesn't seem to follow that they also Billed Wilson's Leather when Wilson's Leather was the party providing the product.

2. "The records of payment rendered were to B&N and Wilson"

For me, this seems to be a contradiction from statement #1 above. It's my confusion to be sure, but #2 reads to me as Western Costume paid B&N and Wilson's for their (Western Costume and Wilson's) services/products.

So in regards to that and for clarification, who was the primary contractor that paid all invoices submitted from the subcontractors? Would Western Costumes have a record of only the work they specifically did for the production and they submitted their invoice for their work to B&N or was it the other way around?

The reason I ask is the:

3. "Harrison Ford Jackets: 1-4 (Hero) 5-9 (Stunt)"

Does this take into account only the Wilson's jackets that were unacceptable and that Deb says she left behind at Western Costumes or would Western Costumes also be including that or have records of any other jackets made and provided by B&N?

So I guess the primary question that I'm asking and that I didn't fully understand is which entity, B&N or Western Costumes, was the one that managed all the invoices and tracking of costumes/products that the various subcontractors provided and submitted invoices for?

crismans
09-09-2010, 08:14 PM
Terrific posts, Hollywood. Very informative and, what's so refreshing (and, sadly, unusual), is that you are providing us with sources where we can check these things for ourself and have them verified. I hope, along with Dr. Jones, that people will take advantage of these resources to check things for themselves (I know I plan to).

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 09:32 PM
1. "Billing for all of Indy's wardrobe was billed to B&N and one billing to Wilson's Leather"

The term billing refers to the companies involved in the production billing for their services. In other words Western Costume, B&N and Wilson all sent bills for their services to the accounts payable department of Paramount Studios.
2. "The records of payment rendered were to B&N and Wilson"

Same as above.

So in regards to that and for clarification, who was the primary contractor that paid all invoices submitted from the subcontractors? Would Western Costumes have a record of only the work they specifically did for the production and they submitted their invoice for their work to B&N or was it the other way around?

Paramount Studios had the accounts payable. So the host, or primary companies billed, and paid thier contractors according to whatever agreement they had. In the records at Western they had a complete record of all costumes both what they produced, and what was produced by B&N, and Wilsons.

The reason I ask is the:

3. "Harrison Ford Jackets: 1-4 (Hero) 5-9 (Stunt)"

Does this take into account only the Wilson's jackets that were unacceptable and that Deb says she left behind at Western Costumes or would Western Costumes also be including that or have records of any other jackets made and provided by B&N?

No Wilsons is not included in this listing. The above is for actual production used jackets, and those left for "stand by" etc.

So I guess the primary question that I'm asking and that I didn't fully understand is which entity, B&N or Western Costumes, was the one that managed all the invoices and tracking of costumes/products that the various subcontractors provided and submitted invoices for?

Western Costumes managed all the physical wardrobe for the film, but Paramount Studios was responsible for the accounts payable portion. How those payments were divided between Paramount and LFL, I am not sure.

Gunslinger
09-09-2010, 10:11 PM
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL THIS, HOLLYWOOD!!

neutronbomb
09-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Thank you Hollywood.

Hollywood
09-09-2010, 10:32 PM
You are all very welcome. Accurate info is important. I would like to reconfirm my info during the potential interview with Watt's. It would be nice to have additional clarification, or more indepth clarification on the processes used.