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View Full Version : ROTLA - film jacket leather (Archive Thread - Ribby Merino vs Shrunken Lamb)



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neutronbomb
08-12-2010, 10:05 PM
I have few I've come accross, but if others have pics or screencaps that show off the leather of the film jackets used in ROTLA better, then please post. I know the wrinkly cowhide makes for a great raiders look, though on close inspection I don't personally see the film jackets are made from it, as it gives a textured and crinkled look for those who like it. Plus it's made of cowhide so it's more durable than lamb. I know TNO's have had Italian cowhide available for a few years now with the 747 version of it used in the Raiders I replicas by many and now USWings has come out with a version. Do we have other vendors who have this type of cowhide available that seems to be a popular alternative for a Raiders hide?

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-2.jpg)

versus:

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Riley/th_IMG_1723.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Riley/?action=view&current=IMG_1723.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Chris%20-%20Italian%20Leather/th_april2010001.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Chris%20-%20Italian%20Leather/?action=view&current=april2010001.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-9-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-9-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_024.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=024.jpg)

versus:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Chris%20-%20Italian%20Leather/th_april2010004.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Chris%20-%20Italian%20Leather/?action=view&current=april2010004.jpg)


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/th_RotLA-stembridge.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20HAWAII/?action=view&current=RotLA-stembridge.jpg)

Gunslinger
08-13-2010, 05:34 AM
See the lines? See the striations and the distance between each?
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Grain.jpg

And the big one. Go here, and expand to 100%. You don't see that underlying wavy grain structure on any sort of cow, young or old.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/th_Raiders-chestpanel.jpg (http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/?action=view&current=Raiders-chestpanel.jpg)

Kt Templar
08-13-2010, 07:10 AM
The wrinkly cowhide that's being shown is quite similar to the stuff on the 'LC proto archive' jacket that both Peter and Tony were given to copy for Indy 4.

Maybe that's where it originates.

No, I don't see any merino type ribs on it either.

Gunslinger
08-13-2010, 07:42 AM
You know if Peter got his hands on any of this proper shrunken Merino stuff, KT? I though a new Wested offering was imminent about a year ago...

Kt Templar
08-13-2010, 08:10 AM
Ha ha! Things are always imminent over there!

He's had some really handsome shrunk lamb (not ribbed) for about a year, but the yields were truly horrible so only a handful of those got made.

So it's a wait and see really!

Gunslinger
08-13-2010, 09:44 AM
By yields do you mean a lot of the skins came in with with unusable characteristics like holes, etc.?

Putting past politics aside, what's your take on these old hides of Peter's and Tony's? Are they really impossible to replicate? I mean, the absolute closest I've seen to the chest panel of the jacket above, frankly, is my own recent Nowak, but it doesn't quite look as close to the main jacket as Tony's 30 year old shrunken lamb.

Duncan, I know you've spoken of that hide before - so your input would be good as well - as would Bryan's come to think of it - it'd be great to get some sort of consensus...

RCSignals
08-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Well, no two will be exactly the same obviously. One can come 'close' such as your jacket and mine, but they will only approximate although be very close.
The 30 year old hide of Tony's came from the French tannery (the guy Gil actually got to meet because the tanner is now in CA near Tony's shop) but my understanding is that tannery longer exists.
Other tanneries still do the process but each result will not necessarily be the same. Tony's current tannery was I believe in Italy and he was able to work closely with them on colour and amount of the effect. The hides are still used in the Industry and used extensively by Cockpit (was Avirex) on their 'Antique' look lamb A-2s. Cooper himself used those hides in the early '80s as in those Indy fan club jackets and other jackets.
The 'striated' or 'ribby' skins as Tony wanted seemed to take longer to source. It could be that fewer of the skins were actually suitable or usable even before tanning? As I recall from Kt's Interview it was alluded that the hides should be available but were not necessarily of great quality. That may also mean fewer usable from the start?

Kt Templar
08-13-2010, 05:16 PM
By yields do you mean a lot of the skins came in with with unusable characteristics like holes, etc.?

Putting past politics aside, what's your take on these old hides of Peter's and Tony's? Are they really impossible to replicate? I mean, the absolute closest I've seen to the chest panel of the jacket above, frankly, is my own recent Nowak, but it doesn't quite look as close to the main jacket as Tony's 30 year old shrunken lamb.

Duncan, I know you've spoken of that hide before - so your input would be good as well - as would Bryan's come to think of it - it'd be great to get some sort of consensus...


Well for one they were quite small so big back panel was proving hard to get. And yes some holes. I actually think their cutter rejected a lot of the stuff we are looking for! Grainy bits, and tight wrinkly bits! all the jerky stuff basically.

The merino appears to be available, like I noted before one of the leather merchants I visited had a sample hanging up, but had to buy it in especially if you wanted it.

Might be idea to ask these questions in the Wested area actually.

Maybe we can persuade him to utilise some of the more exotic parts of the shrunken sheep/lamb for a few special cases.

RCSignals
08-13-2010, 05:23 PM
I can see that happening, a cutter that is used to getting rid of certain areas because of appearance may not realise with these hides he is cutting away what is wanted.
My understanding is the back panel shouldn't be the problem, the front panels are actually longer.
Obviously though the larger the jacket the wider the back panel will become. One of the characteristics of these shrunken grain hides though is none (or little of) of the hide is actually lost in size to the process, the cell structure shrinks up, but can be stretched out. Age of the lambs obviously has an effect on the size of the skins.

Kt Templar
08-13-2010, 05:29 PM
The front panels may be longer but the back, especially when you start getting up into the high 40 and 50's you end up with panels bigger than some breeds of sheep!

That is where cowhide excels, and is easier and cheaper to work with and the skins are HUGE, you could almost make bedspreads out of them.

Mmmm...

Gunslinger
08-14-2010, 04:13 AM
Actually, THAT thought re size vs. animal type had never occurred to me, KT!

I do know that when I was selecting hides for specific panels of my newest jacket, the length was an issue with certain panels - the curve of where the collar fits had to skirt the top of the hide when orienting the chest panel, for instance. And I actually wanted my back panel 180 degrees from the way I had to have it due to width issues.

Any chance of posting the links to those photos of older hides again?

RCSignals
08-14-2010, 04:28 AM
This is Tony's 30 year old shrunken lamb skin.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Shrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Shrunken.jpg)

This is what he sent me in an email about it.


HELLO ****** !I FINALLY TOOK THE PHOTOS TO SHOW PHYSICALLY (FACTS ) WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT .MANY DIFFERENT JACKETS WERE USED IN INDY ONE MADE OUT OF SHRUNKEN LAMB THAT ALSO VARIES A LOT , BUT THATS WHAT IT WAS . HERE IS ONE THAT IS VERY DISTINCT .THAT LEATHER BELONGS TO ME , I USED TO WORK WITH IT IN THE EIGHTIES AND THAT IS WHY IT TOOK ME ABOUT N 1 SECOND TO RECOGNIZE WHAT IT WAS WHEN I WATCHED THE RAIDERS MOVIE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME WHILE WORKING ON THE CRYSTAL SKULL JACKET . PLEASE BE SO KIND AND SHARE THE PHOTOS AND THIS EMAIL WITH ALL THE INDY FANS OUT THERE .THANK YOU KINDLY , MY VERY BEST REGARDS ALWAYS TONY NOWAK .



This is the other photo he sent with it

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Indyshrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Indyshrunken.jpg)

RCSignals
08-14-2010, 04:33 AM
For those interested he followed up with


THANK YOU AGAIN ****** , NOW THAT LEATHER IS UNCUT SO WHEN IT BECOMES A JACKET PULLS AND STRETCHES , THEN LOOKS LIKE THE ONE IN THE FILM .THANK YOU AND KIND REGARDS AGAIN TONY NOWAK .




BUT IT IS THE TRUTH ,I GOT IT RIGHT HERE AND THERE IS THAT JACKET ON THAT SCREEN , HIGHER POWER THATS ABOUT IT , BEST REGARDS AGAIN TONY NOWAK .

Gunslinger
08-14-2010, 04:49 AM
Tony seemed pretty sure about it - KY, do you have that Scobie research? Bryan, would you mind posting that stuff from the tanneries from ages ago?

RCSignals
08-14-2010, 05:13 AM
Oh he was more than pretty sure about it.


HELLO ****** ! THATS FINE , AT THIS TIME NO MORE PHOTOS AND NO MORE INFORMATION AND THERE IS PLENTY OF IT . HE IS USING MY INFO THAT I SHARED WITH OTHERS ( CLEARLY ) , MENTIONING SOME NAMES ARE NOT FACTS , FACTS ARE ON THAT SCREEN FOR PEOPLE WITH A STANDARD VISION , THE BET IS ON BUT IF I HAVE TO SHOW THE FILM JACKET THE BET WILL BE MUCH HIGHER , MUCH HIGHER . MONEY IN ESCROW . WHY THIS NEVER CAME UP BEFORE .PLEASE BE SO KIND AND SHARE THIS WITH ALL THE INDY FANS . KIND REGARDS TONY NOWAK .


Tony knew the shrunken lamb wasn't for everyone though which is why he developed special leathers with the tannery in goat and cowhide. the 747 is a very nice leather, very 'wrinkly' (Cow isn't ribby bubbled or striated unless it is processed and stamped or embossed) and in the correct colour for Raiders

He had another version of the 747 made in a different shade for the Surrogates jacket of Bruce Willis. He used a different shade of Shrunken Lamb for the Miles Strickland jacket in Surrogates.

Kt Templar
08-14-2010, 06:58 AM
Tony seemed pretty sure about it - KY, do you have that Scobie research? Bryan, would you mind posting that stuff from the tanneries from ages ago?


Is that a slight slip of the keyboard? :)

We've all read the info from David, But I can repost here if it will help. I did find this little snippet from a piece he wrote in 1993 for a conference.


Wrinkled Merinos
Since the 1930s science has shown that skin wrinkles are bad for almost every facet of sheep production. Wrinkles reduce fertility, fecundity, growth rate, clean wool yield, the value of skins, and wrinkles increase wool yellowing, susceptibility to flystrike, death rate at all ages and the variability of both fibre diameter and length. Clearly then, wrinkles are a bad thing BUT unlike Polled Merinos, wrinkled Merinos became very fashionable from the 1880s until they had influenced an estimated 90% of Australian flocks and declined again by the 1900s. Wrinkles left their mark and producers still believe that wrinkly skins produce more wool, and have continued to breed sheep that have some wrinkles over the last 70 years. Wrinkles are probably caused by a number of genes, but it is possible to select against them at any time during the life of the sheep and it is possible to make rapid progress towards smooth skins. Yet, despite the scientific evidence and the visible genetic marker, wrinkly sheep remain.


"Thinking about breeding easy care sheep? - Dr David Scobie, AgResearch, NZ"

http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/PC_91919.html?s=1001

RCSignals
08-14-2010, 07:09 AM
LOL pretty funny. It's about live sheep obviously, but wrinkles aren't kind to sheep for sure.

Raskolnikov
08-14-2010, 07:42 AM
Wrinkles aren't kind to anybody but jackets ;D.
Just a question. Do you know if there is something out there like shrunken goat?

RCSignals
08-14-2010, 07:49 AM
Neutronbomb did a lot of research and had a very good write up on the shrunken grain process.
My understanding from that and from long discussions with Tony is that the shrunken grain process is not as effective on goat or Cow or calf, and in some cases the appearance is not desirable.
The most common is on lamb or sheep, but usually lamb or young sheep. It has to do a lot with the animals skin cell structure.

If anyone has photos of a goat hide that has gone through the process it would be interesting to see.

Kt Templar
08-14-2010, 08:24 AM
Age wise I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. With the older animal you obviously get a bigger resulting finish leather and it may give you deeper cells. What you will get is thicker and stronger leather.

Note: the light coloured sample is sheep. It's as thick as regular cowhide.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9835/img9875p.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/img9875p.jpg/)

Some old leather from the old tannery.

It's draped over a full length mirror if that helps you with the scale.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2228/ribbyturnsleather.th.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/ribbyturnsleather.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Gunslinger
08-14-2010, 08:57 AM
Well, Y is right next to T. :D

crismans
08-14-2010, 03:35 PM
By yields do you mean a lot of the skins came in with with unusable characteristics like holes, etc.?

Putting past politics aside, what's your take on these old hides of Peter's and Tony's? Are they really impossible to replicate? I mean, the absolute closest I've seen to the chest panel of the jacket above, frankly, is my own recent Nowak, but it doesn't quite look as close to the main jacket as Tony's 30 year old shrunken lamb.

Duncan, I know you've spoken of that hide before - so your input would be good as well - as would Bryan's come to think of it - it'd be great to get some sort of consensus...


Well for one they were quite small so big back panel was proving hard to get. And yes some holes. I actually think their cutter rejected a lot of the stuff we are looking for! Grainy bits, and tight wrinkly bits! all the jerky stuff basically.

And wouldn't that be the rub? You can see the cutter getting rid of that stuff, not realizing a bunch of us crazies would want it.


Might be idea to ask these questions in the Wested area actually.

Maybe we can persuade him to utilise some of the more exotic parts of the shrunken sheep/lamb for a few special cases.



That is certainly a possibility and one definitely worth checking into. That oil-pulled cowhide I had my Temple made in is some of the nicest leather I've gotten from Wested.

PLATON
08-16-2010, 12:08 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/Unknown-2.jpg

I am tired of seeing this photo.
What do we know.... and what we don't know..
Shrunken? or do we all need a shrink? Don't know...

What bothers me, is that I don't see this kind of 'bubbles' on the jacket at any other time during the film. (Do you?)
So, are those features of the leather? or are they the result of heavy distressing by the wardrobe crew?

What do you guys think?

Raider S
08-16-2010, 03:20 PM
I've never gotten much into leather related discussions as too much seems to be read into things at times. In this case, however, I've seen way more than enough evidence to say those "bubbles" are not the result of distressing by the costume people. If they are, let's see someone, anyone, duplicate that effect through distressing!

As to seeing the bubbles or scales or shrunken grain effects, yes, watch the opening Hawaii scenes and you can certainly see some texture on that jacket to suggest it is not just smooth lamb or even simply distressed leather. I don't offer that as proof but as answer to your question of do I see it.

Tyderium
08-16-2010, 03:27 PM
The striation marking is the 'ribbiness' inherent in the leather, most usually associated with the merino sheep skin, not distressing.
They are clearly seen again here in the Raven Bar jacket.
Look at the right chest panel.



http://a.imageshack.us/img440/5122/ravencollar3.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/ravencollar3.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Chewbacca Jones
08-16-2010, 03:35 PM
That specific photo circulates a lot because it's the clearest shot available of the effect. But if you watch the jacket carefully, those marks are visible in numerous scenes. I don't think it's "shrunken" hide. I've seen enough photos of the shrunken hides to say that this is not the effect. Also, I doubt distressing would do this, except by natural means from lots of wearing, of bad leather.

Every piece of leather will be different, but apparently the right leather will have these sorts of marks, which become more prominent with age and use. My bet is, the "bubbling" became obvious during filming, as combined result of distressing, leather quality, type of leather, and the severe rigors of use in the film.

bendingoak
08-16-2010, 03:48 PM
I know people have tread distressing their jacket but most of the time it's with authentic lamb of Wested. I have never seen anyone use a shrunken lamb jacket. My questio or thought is. What if it's a combination of shrunken lamb and a knife being scraped across the surface?

Thoughts?

Nefarious
08-16-2010, 03:54 PM
i would say those shrunken hide markings are inherent in the wings latest offering......also, if anyone has that pic of one of the 30 year old hides that was in possession of big tony....the markings were there too.

i believe those markings are imperfections in the hide. before i thought they were the result of DN's distressing efforts via HF's pocket knife.....till i saw what can be produced from certain kinds of tanning processes on lamb and sheep.

Nefarious
08-16-2010, 03:59 PM
I know people have tread distressing their jacket but most of the time it's with authentic lamb of Wested. I have never seen anyone use a shrunken lamb jacket. My questio or thought is. What if it's a combination of shrunken lamb and a knife being scraped across the surface?

Thoughts?


my guess is that you would wreck/slice the hide before you get that effect with a knife. those marks look too close to rib marks that i have seen in imperfect hides. well 'imperfect' to the majority of the consumers out there ;)

i would assume that markings such as these are discarded in the same manner that no one wants to wear the animals face on their shoulder :laugh:

bendingoak
08-16-2010, 04:06 PM
I just looked into another thread where someone shows tones 30 year old shrunken lamb and I now take back my thoughts. It's thebleather not the distressing.


Forget what the crazy ol' hatter said. :-[

neutronbomb
08-16-2010, 06:03 PM
It's good to discuss this as it's always a topic that's interested me. I could show quite a few screencaps that show striations and I feel it's pretty clear those striations are part of the skin and not due to wear or distressing of the jacket. However, I'm not going to fill up this thread with all those screencaps unless Platon really wants me to as this is his thread that he started. Plus, the topic is about the shrunken lambskin "myth". I personally think the ribby striations are just a given. I don't see much to argue or debate about it. KT did some good research in bringing an understanding about "ribby" skins, what they are, where they come from, and what they look like. I took this research and ran with it, confirmed some things about it and when creating my jacket project with Tony Nowak about how I wanted heavy striations he confirmed that they're part of the skins and he knew how to get me what I wanted. I never went over Kt's and my research on the ribby skins with Tony as he said know problem, I know what you want, I know all about it, and I'll get it for you no problem. The last thing I'll comment on unless Platon really wants to get into the ribby aspect more in regards to what we can see on screen is that I've noticed that skins with ribby striation tend to also be shrunken, shrunken grain/shrunken lamb. I've seen them in stores, on the internet, non-indy, etc., up close and personal and for some reason they're also shrunken grain. It's just a theory, but maybe it's done to sort of blend everything in. I'm sure if someone were interested in contacting some of the jacket makers like Schott and USWings and many others that sometimes refer to those shrunken, ribby lambskin jackets as antique lambskin and ask why the skins that have the ribby striations are also shrunken that that could be a good topic for discussion in and of itself.

As far as the "shrunken myth". It's all about your perspective I guess and what you see. Shrunken lambskin comes in all "styles" and appearances. Unless when blue ray comes out it shows really good definitive clear closeups of the grain, then this topic may forever remain in the realm of "I don't see it it's not there. Hey you moron (trying to be funny this morning, that's all) it's right there. Hey, maybe YOU need to get checked for eyeglasses." There are a few screencaps where I see what looks like pretty clear indication of the pebbled look that is common in shrunken lamb. But, I've already posted them elsewhere and everyone's likely already seen them. For me it looks like it, but for others it doesn't. I hate to be a buzz kill on the topic, but I don't know if there's anything that can be discussed about the subject that's more than, "look here, I don't see it. No look HERE, don't you see it now. hmmnm......but look here, DON'T see it. Don't know what you're seeing, but you're not seeing what I'm looking at." And so on in a never ending loop. It's unfortunate, that the film washes out a lot of clear detail.

The "myth" of course got "started" with Tony Nowak. Everyone's heard the story to ad nauseum I'm sure. Maybe in time it'll be beneficial to post the entire detailed story elsewhere on the board, but in essence we all likely know that Tony Nowak has stated he was given a screenused ROTLA jacket from a movie executive to examine in order to make replicas from. It arrived in a package with costume department notes, pictures, history, etc.He examined the leather of the jacket he was given to examine and determined it was made from Shrunken lamb. I did ask him personally face to face if the jacket he examined had "scales" like his original mk1 shrunken lambskin replica offering. He said yes, it did.

I think the real issue is that many folks don't see it when looking at the film and thus believe Tony was wrong. I personally knew Tony and worked with him in his shop on my own jacket project and helped him out with his email system. Tony was a good guy. He was honest. He was a great man. So I'd say, if you're going to doubt the shrunken lamb "myth", then doubt away. It's our right and priveledge to question what we see and what we're told. I'm for open discussion and debate and freedom of opinion and thought. However, I personally stand by Tony's character and will say that the idea that Tony purposefully misinformed or mislead or didn't act in good faith is something that I know to be wrong. Because I did have access to so much in regards to emails and responding to emails and discussing his business and what was going on with customers and others with Tony it is very, very difficult to not want to respond outright and negate many of the allegations concerning Tony, his business, and his communication with indivuals that have arisen since he passed away. Upon carefull reflection I realize this is neither the time nor the place. Tony isn't here to address these himself so I feel it's best to let his own words speak for themself. There are plenty of Tony's direct communications that we can refer to regarding his true feelings on this subject.

I leave you with my personal opinion that Tony passionately and genuinely and honestly shared with us what he knew and believed. Maybe someday this issue will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but until then.............try not to burn your eyeballs out with staring at screencaps for hundreds of hours on end ???

neutronbomb
08-16-2010, 06:18 PM
Oh, and on the flip side I think it is also important to understanding the "myth" discussion and concept that Platon has brought up by looking at another aspect I think that people are likely considering. Peter Botwright has stated he made the jackets that are used in the ROTLA film and Noel Howard has confirmed this. Others of course have more first hand accounts about this from noel and peter, on this I'm just going off of what I've heard and various posts I've read. Anyway, Peter's stated the jackets were NOT made from shrunken lambskin. And then of course, it has been relayed that a different jacket maker states they also made jackets that were used in the ROTLA film and that they were made from calfskin.

hatch
08-16-2010, 06:46 PM
NB, sometime you need to post your story of you and Big Tony making the 'deadline' delivery to the Airport shipper and driving over the 'yellow line' area...........hilarious :laugh:

RCSignals
08-16-2010, 08:00 PM
So as not to repost information, read this thread.

http://www.fortuneandglory.org/index.php?topic=221.0

It is shrunken grain hide. Not every shrunken grain hide will be exactly the same, it will be dependent on the breed skin structure etc. Even if you don't believe it is shrunken grain the bubbles/striations/ribbiness is a characteristic of merino or merino X lamb/sheep.
The 'old method' described by Peter some time back produced a similar to if not unknowingly the same effect as the shrunken grain process. Producing the effect of shrinking the cell structure enhancing the grain.
Adjustment of Ph through use of enzymes and other 'secrets' of tanning.



edited for spelling

crismans
08-16-2010, 09:52 PM
I've always thought (might be off in left field here) that some of the confusion might have come from differences in terminology. Tony was calling it shrunken lamb, while Peter might have called it something else. But the process (and the effect) were very similar if not identical.

PLATON
08-16-2010, 11:10 PM
Hi guys, nice replies from everybody. I personally don't know what to believe anymore, but I guess it does not matter.

All that matters is to have a source for a leather that looks and feels screen accurate and then who cares how it is called, merino, shrunken or otherwise.

By the way, we have seen photos of shrunken. Anyone seen merino?


PS: In the subject, with the word myth I do not intend to mean that anyone tells lies about shrunken. Just used it there because the whole shrunken thing is a mystery and to draw attention.

Raider S
08-16-2010, 11:42 PM
PS: In the subject, with the word myth I do not intend to mean that anyone tells lies about shrunken. Just used it there because the whole shrunken thing is a mystery and to draw attention.


I understood completely what you meant by using the word myth. And even if you did mean it any other way, I think there's nothing wrong with some debate, argument, or simply throwing ideas around! There's nothing I'm 100% convinced of anyway. Well, maybe 99% convinced of... ;)

bendingoak
08-17-2010, 12:08 AM
I've always thought (might be off in left field here) that some of the confusion might have come from differences in terminology. Tony was calling it shrunken lamb, while Peter might have called it something else. But the process (and the effect) were very similar if not identical.



I'm think you are onto something.

I know bernie called bashing a hat blocking and we all know there is a big difference between the two.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 12:25 AM
By the way, we have seen photos of shrunken. Anyone seen merino?


Kt's shown pictures of a hide Peter's had in his shop a few years. I believe it's been referred to as merino/non shrunken lamb. I haven't come across a modern version of a merino ribby striation jacket or skin that we can be 100% sure of is NON-shrunken. I'd actually like to see one. It'd be super interesting to me to compare the actual grain of it against the ones that ARE shrunken.

Gunslinger
08-17-2010, 01:09 AM
I'm 99.9% positive it can be nothing but shrunken lambskin. Merino X in particular. Merinos are notorious in the Australian tanning / hide export industry for their ribbiness. It's a selling point for an exporter / tanner to say their hides (ie particular breeds, etc) are superior because they AREN'T ribby. Anyway, I've yet to see anything replicate the exact effect we see here other than this particular breed.

So, lets compare:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders-chestpanel.jpg
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100702.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img440/5122/ravencollar3.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/ravencollar3.jpg/)
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100350.jpg

A few other shots of my jacket. Notice how much variance there is in the way the grain presents. You can stretch each panel one way and then another and totally alter the effect. Notice it's not just the striations themselves but the rivers of grain that match up to the higher, finer grain on Ford's jacket. The main reason you don't see "so much" grain throughout the movie comes down to a combination of lighting, digital noise reduction, motion blur, film stock, etc. But there are a heap of times when POP - it shows up where in other shots it was invisible on that same panel. But it was always there. It is NOT distressing. It is enhanced (and in some areas slightly neutralised) by normal movement and stretching on one's body, nothing more.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100440.jpg
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100540.jpg
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100318.jpg
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100254.jpg


http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100817_100440.jpg

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 04:39 AM
I've always thought (might be off in left field here) that some of the confusion might have come from differences in terminology. Tony was calling it shrunken lamb, while Peter might have called it something else. But the process (and the effect) were very similar if not identical.


I concur that terminology is a sticking point. Many like to jump on words and put a big capital letter on the front and blast people. They don't seem to understand that some terms might be different in English and in American English.

One vendor likes to use the term 'Union made'. I guess that mean that it's made in the US? Over here it means made by people in a Trade Union, so are represented by the Union, and to many here Trade Unions are a dirty word. It means militant workers, strikes and high price to quality ratio!

Pants mean underwear, and color is not a real word. :D

Chewbacca Jones
08-17-2010, 03:39 PM
Interestingthoughts, Gunslinger. But I have trouble believing that the factors you name could hide that much texture! Yes, I see a few shots that reveal more texture in the movie, and I do think their was more on all the jackets than we can see. However, I've also seen far milder grain show up in films of the time.

Also, have a look at the making of stuff again. I doubt they used their best cameras, film, or did any tweaking for that. You can clearly see Terry Leonard wearing a jacket that looks like yours, but not Harrison Ford. In the same lighting and same location.

Now, I'm not saying that the shrunken lamb doesn't have ribbing going on. I just think it has too much other stuff happening to explain what we see in most of the shots that show ribbing. Perhaps the answer is something we haven't discussed yet, like shrunken Merino, or washed Merino?

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 04:16 PM
The thing is, and this is not a slight on Tony. He was almost unique in his use of the term 'shrunken leather'.

To everyone else it's a washed, wrinkly very soft leather. The Superdry 'Brad' jacket is the most famous example of it. It doesn't include the cells or ribs we have identified.

http://www.asos.com/David-Beckham/Superdry/Superdry-Leather-Jacket/Prod/pgeproduct.aspx?iid=159708&cid=3621&clr=Brown&sh=0

Just try googling 'shrunken leather', I am not making this up. :angel:

RCSignals
08-17-2010, 04:39 PM
His terminology referred to the process of using enzymes and adjusting Ph in the tanning process to 'shrink' or to 'take up' the cell structure of the skin. That's what you have to keep in mind. It isn't simply washing or other simple process.
He actually used 'Shrunken lamb'. The better and probably more common term is shrunken grain.
It is not a temporary condition of the leather, and will not 'disappear' over time.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 04:55 PM
Which brings us back to this.

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/textiles_clothing_fashion/2989240-mouton_crispé_lavé.html

http://www.ctc.fr/documentation/lexique_tannerie.php3?pays=a

He probably should have said 'shrunken grain'. And that would have solved a lot of headaches.

jasonalun
08-17-2010, 05:14 PM
I'm like Chewy in this regard as I cannot, no matter how hard I try, see that much texture in the leather of Ford's jacket anywhere in the film. I don't think any amount of digital noise reduction (and I've seen very crips 35mm or better stills from the set anyway) or film stock, lighting, or stretching of the leather can hide that much grain if it were there all over the jacket. I think this instance of "shrunken lamb" goes just a bit too far in the texture department, sorry Gunslinger (where's the hide behind car smiley?). In fact the lighting in some scenes (especially the "emerging from tomb to single wing plane" scene) is what convinces me that it doesn't have that texture everywhere. The light in that scene is so intense and creates such sharp shadows on everything in that scene that any texture that was on the jacket (as you can see on the right inner panel of the jacket in that scene) would show up in stark relief, as it does in that one spot. But you can clearly see that the leather is smooth on the collar, the upper arm, the lower part of the front panel, and later in the scene, other parts of the jacket. So I think that the leather is definitely shrunken lamb (or "grain"), but just not to the extreme that is found in some of Tony's jackets like this one. There are, I believe, degrees to which you can subject the leather to that process, correct - or no? Or perhaps some skins come out more textured then others do, due to the condition of the animal perhaps?

Marauder
08-17-2010, 05:20 PM
gunslinger can bring out his photos again, and I think you'll find there is grain where you think there is not.

RCSignals
08-17-2010, 05:27 PM
...............

He probably should have said 'shrunken grain'. And that would have solved a lot of headaches.





Correct.
I think he used 'shrunken lamb' because he was talking about the process on lamb, and he knew it is mostly used on lamb skins, as other species skins do not react well to the shrunken grain process.
but at least we all pretty much now know what he meant.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 07:29 PM
These were the first few results of when I googled 'shrunken lamb':

http://www.amazon.com/Weatherproof-Mens-Shrunken-Bottom-Jacket/dp/B001DTYKK8

http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_26686421S6040357P?vName=Clothing&cName=Men's&sName=Outerwear&sid=KDx20070926x00003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=26686421S6040357P

http://www.overstock.com/Clothing-Shoes/Dockers-Mens-Shrunken-Lamb-Bomber-Jacket/3366301/product.html

In addition to the Superdry 'Brad' jacket, here's one from Diesel that looks similar to that type/style of shrunken lamb/grain:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1872.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1872.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1878.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1878.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1875.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1875.jpg)

And the second option that was available from Tony that Dan's jacket is made from, the MK2 shrunken finger tip type/style, is also close to that style of shrunken lamb:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0734.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0734.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0732.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0732.jpg)

I have an xtra shrunken, xtra ribby lambskin jacket. I've noticed that there is a great variation in the appearance within the same panels and different panels of the jacket.

Collar:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1279.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1279.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1283.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1283.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_closestudio.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=closestudio.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1278.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1278.jpg)

I also see what looks to be shrunken lamb to me on the sleeves. Open them up 100%. They are also of 2 or 3 different film jackets:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-1-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-1-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0656.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0656.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/th_024.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/?action=view&current=024.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_072.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=072.jpg)

round pebbled look on lower part of triceps, inside action pleat, and on left part of back:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-6-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-6-1.jpg)

Look very, very close at the entire upper arm:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-1.jpg)

Striations all down the sleeve. And take a minute and really concentrate on trying to focus on and see the grain:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Unknown-7-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Unknown-7-1.jpg)

I'm guessing what Gunslinger and myself are trying to show is how WE, well ME anyway, see the parallels between the film jacket(s) and our jackets. Are they exact in every way. Is it the exact same batch of hides and the exact same step by step amount solution and of and time applied of the tanning process and of and everything and the EXACT same Appearance of the film jackets.

Well no. It's 30 years later, using modern tanning methods. I don't know maybe I'm not making any sense here. I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to force anyone to agree. But, at least get what my perspective is across.

Now correct me if I'm wrong KT, but I've always understood your perspective to be that the pebbles and scales and texture, other than the ribby striations, that can be seen on the film jackets are a result of natural wearing, distressing, or just part of the natural skin of NON-shrunken lambskin and that you believe it likely that since some types of shrunken lamb can give this distressed, aged, well worn, pebbly, etc. LOOK, then Tony likely saw that shrunken lamb would mimic it nicely and went that direction, but that your belief is the film jackets were actually NOT shrunken lamb. That's the perspective I've always seen that you're coming from.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 08:02 PM
Neutron, we've been down this route before. I don't theink we are going to agree.

There are 3 traits that get lumped together, sometimes because they can be combined in one skin.

1) Ribby or Merino character these give the parallel rivers of dots. It's genetic, but can be amplified in the tanning process. You can have ribby and no pebble and you can have ribby AND pebble, just push the process more.

2) Shrunken Grain or Crispé the heavy pebble effect caused by chemical or enzyme treatment. You can have pebble and no ribs. Just don't have the ribby character in the skin to begin with.

3) Washed/Shrunken. This gives the wrinkled soft finish, it's also a chemical process but just designed to have creases.

Some people seem to use the terms interchangeably, perhaps Shrunken Grain and Washed are the same process just different versions of it.

Here's a Washed/shrunk lamb jacket I have, no pebble going on.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5329/shrunk.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/shrunk.jpg/)

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 08:07 PM
Is my screen broken?? because my screen shows this:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0734.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0734.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0732.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0732.jpg)

There's a ton of Tony Nowak Raiders I jackets made out of that. I must be high. I thought there were plenty of pictures of them out there.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 08:11 PM
And another type KT is the much softer "fish scale" look that isn't pebbly. I've never heard of 'washed' referring to the puckered fingertip type of shrunken lambskin.

You can see all the types you mentioned above across this entire hide. But's it's gone through the same shrunken grain process.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/th_IMG_0830.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/?action=view&current=IMG_0830.jpg)

Right side is more of the "fish" scales.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/th_IMG_0914.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/?action=view&current=IMG_0914.jpg)

To be honest I have no idea from your above post what it is we DON't agree on other than simple terminology. What do you believe the film jacket was??

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 08:19 PM
Veg tanned merino. Not pushed. It subtler than the Nowak style 'Shrunken'.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 08:25 PM
Also, forgive me, a lot of the time you cite particular screen grabs and say 'look pebbling!!'. When it is clearly just video noise.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 08:38 PM
Also, forgive me, a lot of the time you cite particular screen grabs and say 'look pebbling!!'. When it is clearly just video noise.


That's valid. I've thought of that. Maybe so. I don't think so, but it's clearly a possibility.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 08:43 PM
Veg tanned merino. Not pushed. It subtler than the Nowak style 'Shrunken'.


Pushed?? What??

So straight up NO Shrunken of any kind. Right? I want to be super clear on what your meaning is. NO washed. NO chemical for wrinkled/shrunken finger tip. NO shrunken grain of any kind whatsoever. Correct? Just plain, old, regular, simple, straight up, neat, nothing added for texture, tanned merino lambskin.

Like this?? 8)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Mark%20Seven/th_p023f.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Mark%20Seven/?action=view&current=p023f.jpg)
(picture credited to username Mark Seven)

jasonalun
08-17-2010, 09:17 PM
Also, forgive me, a lot of the time you cite particular screen grabs and say 'look pebbling!!'. When it is clearly just video noise.


That's valid. I've thought of that. Maybe so. I don't think so, but it's clearly a possibility.


I have to say, after looking at some of your shots there, nb, I have to agree with KT. Those shots are way too blurry or full of video artifacts to tell anything definitive about the leather texture in them. All due respect, I think you're trying way too hard to see things in there that just can't be proven to be there.

Some of those shots, like Ford sticking his arm into the light in the Temple, is just normal leather crinkling from the softness of the leather. I'll post pics later, but my Wested smooth lamb sleeve does that exact same thing. That's not the shrunken grain effect.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 09:48 PM
Neutron, I see a much closer resemblance to Mark Seven's jacket leather than some of the deeper pebbled 'Nowak Shrunken', yes.

I'm sure you'll get some pebble grain even on non pushed leather, around the neck and belly. The jerky shank, as Aero calls it.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:07 PM
PS if it's any concellation, I don't see that the Wings New Zealand lamb is any better. It's the right skin, but overprocessed and it is glazed too.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Fair enough KT and Dr. Jones. I totally see pebbles across this entire section. Not the wrinkles or anything. Not video noise or anything.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20SCENES%20-%20TEMPLE/024-1.jpg

this is what I see:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0027.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0027.jpg)



http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/Unknown.jpg

This is what I see:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0001.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0001.jpg)

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:20 PM
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1073/fronthjc.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/fronthjc.jpg/)

So why isn't it here on a much clearer still picture.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm sure you'll get some pebble grain even on non pushed leather, around the neck and belly. The jerky shank, as Aero calls it.


I don't know what you mean by 'pushed'. I've never seen that term when referring to this subject until just now when you used it.

Also part of my confusion is you've used 'Washed' to describe both this:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/linedlambfj4.jpg

AND this:
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5329/shrunk.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/shrunk.jpg/)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/th_IMG_1875.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Non%20Indy%20%20Shrunken%20Lamb%20Jackets/?action=view&current=IMG_1875.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0734.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0734.jpg)

Gunslinger
08-17-2010, 10:24 PM
Interestingthoughts, Gunslinger. But I have trouble believing that the factors you name could hide that much texture! Yes, I see a few shots that reveal more texture in the movie, and I do think their was more on all the jackets than we can see. However, I've also seen far milder grain show up in films of the time.

Also, have a look at the making of stuff again. I doubt they used their best cameras, film, or did any tweaking for that. You can clearly see Terry Leonard wearing a jacket that looks like yours, but not Harrison Ford. In the same lighting and same location.

Now, I'm not saying that the shrunken lamb doesn't have ribbing going on. I just think it has too much other stuff happening to explain what we see in most of the shots that show ribbing. Perhaps the answer is something we haven't discussed yet, like shrunken Merino, or washed Merino?


I will obviously acknowledge that the upper arms of my jacket have "too much" grain to be perfectly S.A. - but that was my choice when I selected the hides. The particular hides that had the striations I wanted had that grain there and choices had to be made. Please remember I specced and orientated every panel on this jacket that I wanted to.

I've watched all of the making-of stuff. I used it to spec my jacket. There are shots in there which confirm striations on Ford's jacket, but in looking VERY close at Leonards, didn't see anything - and that's with PAL format which has more resolution and colour range than NTSC. Can you post caps?

Merino is the type of sheep. Any tanning variation is going to be some form of merino. The thing is, you could have ribbing visible without so much shrinkage, but you wouldn't get the rivers, and the jackets clearly have the rivers. Again, the Nowaks' grain maybe be slightly OTT but the're the closest I've seen.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:29 PM
The first sample is of the type that Peter calls the Turn's Tannery leather. ie old fashioned tanning and from the tannery he made the Raiders jackets from.

My term 'pushed' means extra processing to bring out grain using specific additives. ie shrunken grain process.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 10:31 PM
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1073/fronthjc.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/fronthjc.jpg/)

So why isn't it here on a much clearer still picture.


I wouldn't say clearer. Do you really not see it?
Same jacket as this:
http://a.imageshack.us/img440/5122/ravencollar3.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/ravencollar3.jpg/)

I think you skipped over this. It's my same jacket that I showed above with the sleeves:
Collar:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1279.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1279.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1283.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1283.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_closestudio.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=closestudio.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1278.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1278.jpg)

Gunslinger
08-17-2010, 10:34 PM
And another type KT is the much softer "fish scale" look that isn't pebbly. I've never heard of 'washed' referring to the puckered fingertip type of shrunken lambskin.

You can see all the types you mentioned above across this entire hide. But's it's gone through the same shrunken grain process.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/th_IMG_0830.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/?action=view&current=IMG_0830.jpg)

Right side is more of the "fish" scales.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/th_IMG_0914.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20Shop%20-%20Striation%20Lamb%20and%20Vintage%20Goat%20Hides/?action=view&current=IMG_0914.jpg)


:D That's weird / funny! Those exact hides are now part of my jacket! Scary how much the grain from hide to hide is so different and distinct / identifiable.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 10:34 PM
The first sample is of the type that Peter calls the Turn's Tannery leather. ie old fashioned tanning and from the tannery he made the Raiders jackets from.


Thanks KT. Yes, but you used washed to refer to it.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:38 PM
Well now we've had time to digest the processes.

The big old skin is a old school ribby merino.

The fish scales you're showing us is just normal lambskin ie 1-2 mm grains + merino ribs, along the lines of my 'just normal tanned merino' theory. We are not talking about the 10-15mm pebbles.

There is a lot of extra stuff going on in that big skin and it probably was a piece like that that gives the back panel on the Harrison Ford's Truck drag jacket that very textured look.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 10:40 PM
PS if it's any concellation, I don't see that the Wings New Zealand lamb is any better. It's the right skin, but overprocessed and it is glazed too.


Now, now Kt. Now, now. thin ice, very......thin ice.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:42 PM
PS if it's any concellation, I don't see that the Wings New Zealand lamb is any better. It's the right skin, but overprocessed and it is glazed too.


Now, now Kt. Now, now. thin ice, very......thin ice.


LOL :angel:

Gunslinger
08-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Angle of lighting is VERY important for showing up the grain too.

KT, do I remember reading somewhere that Peter had said he had the hides run in a dryer with stones or something before cutting? Just trying to get my head around other things that could have come into play, as the grain from panel to panel is very inconsistent.

(BTW, note more graining on the lower right corner of screen on Ford's arm in the B&W shot above.)

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 10:52 PM
The stones thing was for later early predistressed jackets IIRC.

On a scale of 1-10 with smooth lambskin at 1 and the 1st nowak indy 1 at 10. I think the screen one would have been about 4.5 on the scale.

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 11:01 PM
Well now we've had time to digest the processes.

The big old skin is a old school ribby merino.

The fish scales you're showing us is just normal lambskin ie 1-2 mm grains + merino ribs, along the lines of my 'just normal tanned merino' theory. We are not talking about the 10-15mm pebbles.

There is a lot of extra stuff going on in that big skin and it probably was a piece like that that gives the back panel on the Harrison Ford's Truck drag jacket that very textured look.


I think it looks like it's also shrunken lamb/pushed/shrunken grain and very similar looking to Tony's that he did refer to as shrunken.
Peter's:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/linedlambfj4.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/th_skin3.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/?action=view&current=skin3.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Crispe%20from%20Peter/ribby2.jpg

Tony's (all different parts of the same hide):
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Shrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Shrunken.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0723.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0723.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0712.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0712.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0714.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0714.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0705.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0705.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/th_IMG_0724.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/?action=view&current=IMG_0724.jpg)

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 11:04 PM
The stones thing was for later early predistressed jackets IIRC.

On a scale of 1-10 with smooth lambskin at 1 and the 1st nowak indy 1 at 10. I think the screen one would have been about 4.5 on the scale.


But how did it get to 4.5 if smooth lambskin is at a 1? Are you saying that NON-PUSHED ribby merino is at 4.5?

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 11:12 PM
Totally smooth lambskin is non merino with no shank used.

I'd say the film jackets would be about 4.5 (non pushed ribby merino). Though that sample there is about 7! Maybe that's why it's a left over.

I really don't like the last one you have there with the snaking ribbons. Looks like worm casts, I mentioned the elephant's scrotum jacket once?

Gunslinger
08-17-2010, 11:17 PM
LOL. Blow his mind and post your ESSL jacket, Bryan! :D

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 11:19 PM
Yes you did mention it before. I know what you're up to.....trying to ruin it for me :-[ :D

If you happen to come across some modern day tanning of ribby merino that we can know has NOT been subjected to any shrunken grain/washed/chemical form of grain shrinkage/pushed/etc., let me know. I'll keep searching myself.

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 11:26 PM
Peter has a sample of a beautiful leather. It soft and supple is like smooth lambskin yet it has merino ribs and some very subtle large pebbles on like 10% of it.

Only one problem.

It's the size of a domestic cat. Truly a lambskin. :laugh: :'( :laugh:

neutronbomb
08-17-2010, 11:31 PM
KT's seen it before. I think Dartic_Jones said it was the UGLIEST thing he'd ever seen.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/IMG_0006.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/IMG_0674.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0653.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0653.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0704.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0704.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/th_IMG_0055.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/?action=view&current=IMG_0055.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/th_IMG_0671.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?action=view&current=IMG_0671.jpg)

You get a few feet away and it's not so apparent:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/th_IMG_0012.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/?action=view&current=IMG_0012.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/th_IMG_0012.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/?action=view&current=IMG_0012.jpg)

http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Distressed/?start=all

Kt Templar
08-17-2010, 11:41 PM
That is certainly a statement jacket. :-\

No the elephant scroat jacket I saw was on a little old lady. It was shearling and obviously very, very ribby on the outside, maybe it was faced with ribby leather as I've not heard of the ribs showing through to the flesh side. Anyway. It had huge coils of wormy stuff. Made my skin crawl just to look at it.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 12:20 AM
Jeez Bryan; I LOVE that jacket. Every time is see it... just speechlessly awesome. Massive Raiders vibe yet also clearly its own animal entirely.

Chewbacca Jones
08-18-2010, 01:00 AM
I've watched all of the making-of stuff. I used it to spec my jacket. There are shots in there which confirm striations on Ford's jacket, but in looking VERY close at Leonards, didn't see anything - and that's with PAL format which has more resolution and colour range than NTSC. Can you post caps?


Sorry, I didn't mean that Terry's had striations, I meant the severe graining. I should have been clearer there. My fault.

I can not post screen caps. I don't have a program capable of it. Or at least, if I do, I can't figure it out. :-[

By the way, everyone, let's be careful about the "Washed" term. The washed hides I've seen are smooth, but with less shine and less stiffness. Otherwise, they are just like the normal hides (I've seen goat, and own lamb). Clearly, there's more to the story than just washing, including the hide you are washing in the first place.

I also want to point out that even ordinary cowhide, lambskin, or whatever, can have areas with more or less grain. Heck, I have owned several jackets, smooth as silk, with seemingly random patches that look exactly like the areas being pointed at in these screen caps (the sleeve in the light trap and such). Unless the entire jacket has that grain, then no film jacket can be said to be of any particular non-standard hide on the basis of pebbly texture in screen cap evidence. Plus, in at least one of the shots (Indy in the truck and on front of the truck, from what I can see), Ford's face is as pebbly as his jacket! Clearly, there is too much noise to go off that one.

Perhaps Bluray will help clear up some of what we see... and think we see.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 01:08 AM
Hi Chewie. I know what you mean re the ease of use. VLC Player. It's very simple and free.

I can see that TL's jacket could be any kind of leather. We see grain there, and I guarantee you there is grain on it we don't see. It looks like that footage was shot on 16mm at best.

neutronbomb
08-18-2010, 01:35 AM
This is a good post. All valid points. All to keep in mind and to carefully consider. I tried to show that shrunken lamb doesn't look the same over the entire skin. Heck (you got me saying heck Chewie), you can see my totally enhanced jacket and then it's collar which I showed a couple of times in some comparison shots which in my opinion is an EXACT match to the film jacket. I totally hear you on the noise. I see it on his face also. I feel I've taken that into consideration, but just thought I'd share my thoughts and what I'm looking at and what I think I'm seeing.

Doesn't mean I'm right. I don't want to come across as arrogant or self-rightgeous or all knowing. And if I do, I'm sorry. At least a lots been laid out for folks to take into consideration.





I've watched all of the making-of stuff. I used it to spec my jacket. There are shots in there which confirm striations on Ford's jacket, but in looking VERY close at Leonards, didn't see anything - and that's with PAL format which has more resolution and colour range than NTSC. Can you post caps?


Sorry, I didn't mean that Terry's had striations, I meant the severe graining. I should have been clearer there. My fault.

I can not post screen caps. I don't have a program capable of it. Or at least, if I do, I can't figure it out. :-[

By the way, everyone, let's be careful about the "Washed" term. The washed hides I've seen are smooth, but with less shine and less stiffness. Otherwise, they are just like the normal hides (I've seen goat, and own lamb). Clearly, there's more to the story than just washing, including the hide you are washing in the first place.

I also want to point out that even ordinary cowhide, lambskin, or whatever, can have areas with more or less grain. Heck, I have owned several jackets, smooth as silk, with seemingly random patches that look exactly like the areas being pointed at in these screen caps (the sleeve in the light trap and such). Unless the entire jacket has that grain, then no film jacket can be said to be of any particular non-standard hide on the basis of pebbly texture in screen cap evidence. Plus, in at least one of the shots (Indy in the truck and on front of the truck, from what I can see), Ford's face is as pebbly as his jacket! Clearly, there is too much noise to go off that one.

Perhaps Bluray will help clear up some of what we see... and think we see.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 01:54 AM
Although some of it is noise and some is "normal" grain, you've got a good eye, Bryan. You're the one that really noticed where the full on patches of grain were in the first place. We've just got to be careful not to extrapolate too far. I know I've posted this shot on another thread, but it bears re-noting:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Grain.jpg

Specifically the top left shot of the yoke panel. There are a few shots that show that amount and style of grain in the different panels - and some of your shots show that - the really rivery stuff. If shrunken lamb wasn't used, I'm not sure how those panels would present that way.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 02:06 AM
I'm just throwing this out here to show that sometimes you can't trust everything you think see. Hope no one takes offense, I just found this interesting. I have a smooth authentic brown lambskin Wested from 2008 or so (actually formerly owned by The Last Crusader!) and it has some interesting effects on some of the panels, particularly the yoke and back panel. Here's the yoke:

http://a.imageshack.us/img12/8998/082010004.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/082010004.jpg/)

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/1602/082010003.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/082010003.jpg/)

Not arguing at all that this jacket is the right leather, in fact saying it isn't, but it nonetheless can look an awful lot like a textured jacket in some places, even though it is smooth.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 05:51 AM
........ All due respect, I think you're trying way too hard to see things in there that just can't be proven to be there.

...........


It can be proven at least by the word of Tony Nowak, who had one of the jackets in his hands.
I posted in another thread some of his own words. I'll trust his word and evaluation over those who are only speculating.
The jacket did not just have 'wrinkles' It had the grain of his earliest jackets, that which some called 'dinohyde' etc. That grain is largely washed out on film, but is apparent in many of the HD screen shots Gunslinger has posted.
This argument of grain is why Peter ended up offering only very smooth lamb. Fan push.
But it all comes down to what the customer wants for their own jacket.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 05:55 AM
Do we even know what jacket that is in the first still photo?






http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1073/fronthjc.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/fronthjc.jpg/)

So why isn't it here on a much clearer still picture.


I wouldn't say clearer. Do you really not see it?
Same jacket as this:
http://a.imageshack.us/img440/5122/ravencollar3.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/ravencollar3.jpg/)

I think you skipped over this. It's my same jacket that I showed above with the sleeves:
Collar:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1279.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1279.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/th_Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/?action=view&current=Raiders-chestpanel-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1283.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1283.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_closestudio.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=closestudio.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/th_IMG_1278.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20Collar/?action=view&current=IMG_1278.jpg)

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 05:59 AM
Well now we've had time to digest the processes.

The big old skin is a old school ribby merino.

The fish scales you're showing us is just normal lambskin ie 1-2 mm grains + merino ribs, along the lines of my 'just normal tanned merino' theory. We are not talking about the 10-15mm pebbles.

There is a lot of extra stuff going on in that big skin and it probably was a piece like that that gives the back panel on the Harrison Ford's Truck drag jacket that very textured look.


If this is the case of 'just normal tanned' Merino. Where are all these just normal tanned hides? Why are they not common and easily found? Why even bother then with the 'shrunken grain' process if the same is so readily accomplished through 'normal tanning'?

The back panel is not the problem. Back panels were never a problem for Tony Nowak in making these jackets and he made some large ones for people. Never having to seam two hides for the back.
The problem if any are the front panels, which are longer from shoulder seam to bottom than a back is wide.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 06:01 AM
It's DEFINITELY the hero jacket.

Although it's arm grain is obviously far less prominent than, say, mine; if you look closely you will see that the arm is in soft focus. That, combined with film grain and the copy of a copy-ness won't help in showing up what IS there. I have seen multiple other frames of this same jacket and it has whole rows of striation lines down the upper arm, the top of which is visible here, before the leather flaps over it.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 06:16 AM
I'm just throwing this out here to show that sometimes you can't trust everything you think see. Hope no one takes offense, I just found this interesting. I have a smooth authentic brown lambskin Wested from 2008 or so (actually formerly owned by The Last Crusader!) and it has some interesting effects on some of the panels, particularly the yoke and back panel. Here's the yoke:

http://a.imageshack.us/img12/8998/082010004.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/082010004.jpg/)

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/1602/082010003.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/082010003.jpg/)

Not arguing at all that this jacket is the right leather, in fact saying it isn't, but it nonetheless can look an awful lot like a textured jacket in some places, even though it is smooth.


I see wrinkling and I see a small amount of the cell graining that lamb can develop from being wet and drying.
I see none of the specific effects we see on the screen jacket. None of the effects Tony Nowak described of the jacket he had. Those effects are not obtained through normal tanning, washing, drying, tumbling etc. They are gained from the tanning process of adding enzymes and adjusting Ph. It is as simple as that. I've stated before that the process used by turn leather likely used, possibly even unknown to them at the time, ingredients which contained similar enzymes and or adjusted Ph of the solutions. I don't believe that is an implausible scenario.


While other leathers can and do have graining and wrinkling, each species has it's own scin cell structure, each being different from each other. Not all skins from different species react to 'shrunken grain' process in the same way, some not well at all. Lamb as it's own look different from Cow.
Wrinkles are wrinkles, and do not present as anything but.

Tyderium
08-18-2010, 06:46 AM
The texture on the shrunken lamb jacket is very much a morphing beast and can change appearance from panel to panel both in structure and presence. My jacket has a much smoother graining on the arms and collar, pronounced pebbling on the pocket flaps and then more river-like or fish scales as N-bomb put it, on the larger panels.
You will lose most of this detail in stand off photography, let alone film stock but every now and then it shows up quite clearly in some images. The image below isn't great but the pocket stands out for me, especially the top half, as having the more pronounced pebbled look of the shrunken grain.



http://a.imageshack.us/img814/6446/rotlajacket3.th.jpg (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/rotlajacket3.jpg/)

Kt Templar
08-18-2010, 06:49 AM
Well it's the old fashioned veg tanning. Takes months, were as current chrome tanning hours or days.

PLATON
08-18-2010, 07:54 AM
I don't see any pebbles in the hero jacket apart from the right upper chest area.

I can guess the merino is like a rough grainy lambskin with lots of creases wrinkles and few pebbles. Probably used back then for antique looking garments before the washed skins were invented.

But then again, that's just me.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 07:58 AM
It had to do with wool production if I remember my history lessons correctly. It was the best breed for the Australian climate or something. ...But the skin is wrinkly, so not so good for that... for normal people. :D

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 01:03 PM
........ All due respect, I think you're trying way too hard to see things in there that just can't be proven to be there.

...........


It can be proven at least by the word of Tony Nowak, who had one of the jackets in his hands.
I posted in another thread some of his own words. I'll trust his word and evaluation over those who are only speculating.
The jacket did not just have 'wrinkles' It had the grain of his earliest jackets, that which some called 'dinohyde' etc. That grain is largely washed out on film, but is apparent in many of the HD screen shots Gunslinger has posted.
This argument of grain is why Peter ended up offering only very smooth lamb. Fan push.
But it all comes down to what the customer wants for their own jacket.


What exactly did Tony say? Did he say "there was heavy pebbling over every square centimeter of every panel of the jacket?" I know he said the hide was "shrunken lamb," and that all the jacket leather was that type, but that doesn't mean I'm not right in my assessment that the texture was not as pronounced as, say, Kurt's jacket's, and that there were areas that were smoother as well.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 01:11 PM
I'd say the film jackets would be about 4.5 (non pushed ribby merino).



I'm convinced by KT's arguments. They make the most sense to me from the hide pics and what I see on screen. I could be wrong, but until I see 300 dpi closeup photos of the film jacket that Tony had that prove otherwise I'm sticking to this theory. 8)

bendingoak
08-18-2010, 03:39 PM
I take Tony opinion over all else. The man knewchis stuff and hat the jacket in hand. Something none of use can say. I myself know that can't always go by photos.

John

neutronbomb
08-18-2010, 04:59 PM
I feel the same way John. But, not everyone was as fortunate as you and I in being able to meet him and have him go over everything and explain and demonstrate and discuss in detail the whole deal inside and out. That makes an impression. The man indeed knew his stuff. Many people know he was a "jacket maker" which is a term that could be interpreted as a guy who knows how to sew pieces of leather together. I was flat out amazed at his skills. I've been with him when he's called his tanneries at 1am Pacific time. I've heard him talking fluent Italian to the guys at the tannery in his thick Polish accent. He flew out to the tanneries and helped develop hides that he needed or wanted. He was so, so much more than just a guy who can sew pieces of leather together. One in a million. The demonstration he gave me at his work table. You have to picture this huge, huge stainless steel elevated table that he stands in front surrounded by other tables and setups and tools and everything. Tools and irons hanging from the ceiling hissing and steaming, gigantic scissors, hammers, tongs. Watching him totally reminded me of how the movies portrays iron and metal forgers. Watching him work cowhide vs. goat vs lambskin. Hearing him explain the properties of shrunken lamb and how it behaves and how it's different and how it reacts and you treat it differently than normal lambskin when building a jacket. Having him explain why he's cutting my batch a little different than the pattern outline he drew on the back because of the elastic properties of shrunken lamb and how it behaves and how my batch compares to the jacket he had in hand to examine how it was different and what it had in common and hey look here bomber see this is cowhide it's my favorite look how much better and easier it is and different on and on and on. Come over here, look at this calfskin, look at this fully adult shrunken sheep skin that I made Arnold for the jacket he was wearing when he wrecked his motorcycle on. Look at how different it is than lambskin. Look how hard and thick and crusty it is. Oh hey, look over hear at the white shrunken lamb ninja uniforms I made for Cobra. This is what I had to do different for that specific batch vs what the ROTLA jacket that counts that I had in hand vs your batch vs............ Oh hey,..........for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.

Which is why I find it so incredibly, incredibly, blindingly, transparently, simply.........what...... silly........ moronic?, when I hear from someone whose story changes as the wind blows, from the latest gossip, or latest conversation imagined or real, with contradictions as wide as the grand canyon and a voice that echo's gee I can see for miles and miles and miles in here that I personally know stood shoulder to shoulder with Tony and nodded enthusiastically saying I always knew it and then when Tony's barely been laid to rest and has yet another conversation that is just one in a year after year after year after year string that's just a bit different than the one before it......

SUDDENLY...............................poor, stupid Tony.....can't tell the difference between cow and lamb.

But anyway, without that personal experience, Tony's just a name of someone who says so. So I understand. Because I can relate. I don't know for sure what Noel Howard or what Peter said or neil cooper. I wasn't there to hear the context. To see the facial expressions. To see the non-verbal cues. To ask questions for clarification. To get my own first hand account. So it doesn't mean I'm saying what they said never happened. But, it's just that I wasn't there to hear the story for myself. So I get it.

I'm working on a project that's likely going to take me some time to figure out with screecaps. But, I've been watching the entire Hawaii scene at the beginning of the movie.......FRAME by FRAME.....on a gigantic high definition computer screen. I highly suggest doing that and really looking at the entire jacket for at least 30 seconds each frame.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 06:06 PM
........ All due respect, I think you're trying way too hard to see things in there that just can't be proven to be there.

...........


It can be proven at least by the word of Tony Nowak, who had one of the jackets in his hands.
I posted in another thread some of his own words. I'll trust his word and evaluation over those who are only speculating.
The jacket did not just have 'wrinkles' It had the grain of his earliest jackets, that which some called 'dinohyde' etc. That grain is largely washed out on film, but is apparent in many of the HD screen shots Gunslinger has posted.
This argument of grain is why Peter ended up offering only very smooth lamb. Fan push.
But it all comes down to what the customer wants for their own jacket.


What exactly did Tony say? Did he say "there was heavy pebbling over every square centimeter of every panel of the jacket?" I know he said the hide was "shrunken lamb," and that all the jacket leather was that type, but that doesn't mean I'm not right in my assessment that the texture was not as pronounced as, say, Kurt's jacket's, and that there were areas that were smoother as well.


It has been posted many times. Take a look at any of the photos of the early jackets form tony. that first batch of skin duplicated the jacket he had best (That jacket was not the one with the 'striations', but still shrunken grain lamb)
I don't know how many times I can say this. Hatch's jacket, G's jacket, Whiskyman's jacket. the jacket Tyderium now has. That's what he said. You want to see the skin of the jacket he had, look at those jackets.
So basically yes, it does mean your supposition is not right.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 06:09 PM
I'd say the film jackets would be about 4.5 (non pushed ribby merino).



I'm convinced by KT's arguments. They make the most sense to me from the hide pics and what I see on screen. I could be wrong, but until I see 300 dpi closeup photos of the film jacket that Tony had that prove otherwise I'm sticking to this theory. 8)


And that's what it is a theory. Read my post previous to this.

But it's fine, believe it or not. It's not for me to change your mind. I'm just a conduit for the information.....

bendingoak
08-18-2010, 06:33 PM
I have to disagree here. I don't care who you are or if you meet Tony or not. There is no way any of us can tell from photos, screen grabs or what ever. Tony had the jacket in hand and had been working with leather for a very, very long time. I take his opinion over anyones else.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 06:38 PM
I have to disagree here. I don't care who you are or if you meet Tony or not. There is no way any of us can tell from photos, screen grabs or what ever. Tony had the jacket in hand and had been working with leather for a very, very long time. I take his opinion over anyones else.




Agreed

crismans
08-18-2010, 07:09 PM
I have to disagree here. I don't care who you are or if you meet Tony or not. There is no way any of us can tell from photos, screen grabs or what ever. Tony had the jacket in hand and had been working with leather for a very, very long time. I take his opinion over anyones else.




I will agree to this to a certain point (or maybe I'm fully agreeing, I don't know). I think that you can tell some things from photos and screen grabs. They are not a be-all, end-all by any means, but are a useful tool when used with other tools.

However, when what I'm seeing matches what Tony told me? I'm convinced and it would take a lot to change my mind.

Again, as said this until I'm blue in the face, and it seems to have been overlooked or discounted. I have never said that I discount what Cooper said. I wasn't there, I don't know what he said for sure. If he says he made his jackets out of calf or whatever, I have no reason to doubt the man whatsoever. But, if that's the case, then the jacket Tony had wasn't a Cooper's. This is strictly my opinion based on my knowledge of Tony's expertise and skill and what the man told me.

And while I have been critical of Peter in the past, I don't discount his involvement either. As I postulated before, it might be a matter of terminology at play here (at least in part). I think there is an intersection point for the stories and that is where you will find the starting point for the truth.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 07:30 PM
I agree that screen shots by themselves are not all telling. I don't think they are useless and should be disregarded either though. Some screen shots are better quality than others and this is where much information has been gleaned especially recently by Gunslinger.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 07:43 PM
........ All due respect, I think you're trying way too hard to see things in there that just can't be proven to be there.

...........


It can be proven at least by the word of Tony Nowak, who had one of the jackets in his hands.
I posted in another thread some of his own words. I'll trust his word and evaluation over those who are only speculating.
The jacket did not just have 'wrinkles' It had the grain of his earliest jackets, that which some called 'dinohyde' etc. That grain is largely washed out on film, but is apparent in many of the HD screen shots Gunslinger has posted.
This argument of grain is why Peter ended up offering only very smooth lamb. Fan push.
But it all comes down to what the customer wants for their own jacket.


What exactly did Tony say? Did he say "there was heavy pebbling over every square centimeter of every panel of the jacket?" I know he said the hide was "shrunken lamb," and that all the jacket leather was that type, but that doesn't mean I'm not right in my assessment that the texture was not as pronounced as, say, Kurt's jacket's, and that there were areas that were smoother as well.


It has been posted many times. Take a look at any of the photos of the early jackets form tony. that first batch of skin duplicated the jacket he had best (That jacket was not the one with the 'striations', but still shrunken grain lamb)
I don't know how many times I can say this. Hatch's jacket, G's jacket, Whiskyman's jacket. the jacket Tyderium now has. That's what he said. You want to see the skin of the jacket he had, look at those jackets.
So basically yes, it does mean your supposition is not right.




Take it easy there, RC - I'm just asking. I'm haven't been a jacket guy for long and I haven't seen G's jacket or Whiskeyman's jacket or Tyderium's. I think Dan theman's jacket is the closest I've ever seen to what is on-screen, and that was made by Tony. I'm not disagreeing with Tony or saying Tony didn't know what he was talking about. Far from it. I just think it may be possible to take things he said a little too far. There are degrees of "shrunken grain", according to KT, and some are more pronounced than others. I just think Gunslinger's is too much, that's all I'm saying. Don't crucify me here.

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 08:08 PM
What I wrote is not an attack, don't take it that way at all. It's pretty plain and says it like it is. What Tony said is what he said. Simple, there is no embellishment. It is what it is.
TheMan's jacket looks right because it is a direct copy size for size of the jacket. It is 'right' and still shrunken lamb and the colour is correct. It will always 'look right' in photos.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 08:29 PM
What's the argument then? All I'm saying is that in my opinion theman's jacket appears the right amount of "shrunken grain" texture, and Kurt's is a bit much. They are different, right? I look at them and they don't appear the same. So why do people seem to think I'm saying Tony doesn't know what he was talking about? Am I misreading things? I think Tony knew what the leather was, but from what I understand there is a range of texture available with "shrunken lamb."

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 08:39 PM
There is no argument.
The leather that duplicates the look of the jacket he copied can be seen in the jackets I cited. The leather of theman's jacket (and one of mine in fact) is shrunken lamb but does not duplicate the grain and texture of the jacket he had to duplicate. It is really as simple as that. It does not diminish the man's jacket at all.

It's about what a customer wants. The 'original' grain is not for everyone, that's for sure.
For years, and even still today, many people thought they were seeing super smooth leather on the jacket, with a few wrinkles from wear.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 08:51 PM
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I don't see the texture of Kurt's jacket on screen and I don't believe it's possible to hide texture like that with lighting, motion, etc. So I guess I'll just go off to my own little corner then. ;D

RCSignals
08-18-2010, 08:56 PM
Kurt has already stated that some of the texture on his jacket is greater, but that he specifically chose it.
Kurt's jacket is also not representative in texture and grain of the jacket Tony had to duplicate. That jacket was not the one with the 'ribby' lines or striations.
We are talking two different jackets but of the same 'pattern'. Just not the same leather details.

jasonalun
08-18-2010, 09:08 PM
Kurt has already stated that some of the texture on his jacket is greater, but that he specifically chose it.
Kurt's jacket is also not representative in texture and grain of the jacket Tony had to duplicate. That jacket was not the one with the 'ribby' lines or striations.
We are talking two different jackets but of the same 'pattern'. Just not the same leather details.


Ok, I understand.

Gunslinger
08-18-2010, 11:20 PM
Having now owned / worn / stared at both of these jackets & leather, IMO the grain in many panels of the first jacket I owned looks closer to the amount/degree of grain in the film jacket (especially the back & yoke), but it's the wrong type of shrunken grain when you liik really close. And I'm not talking about the striations. This earlier jacket approximates the right amount of grain with the wrong sort of grain in other words. My new jacket is the right sort of shrunken grain but in places the pebbling is indeed too excessive. It's a trade-off based on my personal preference. I needed a bigger jacket and didn't want to get exactly the same one twice.

The thing only a small handful of us have seen firsthand is very important though - each hide is different from the next, and the graining presents very differently in different places on a given hide. See below, how the bottom right - what become the shoulder area - has lumpier grain? I could have had it cut on the other diagonal. (Please note I've heavily distorted the outline of the sleeve uploaded here to protect the Nowak pattern.)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Distorted-9-Hide.jpg

I had to trade-off having perfect grain in some places with needing to fit a panel in in a certain orientation that meant the chunkier grain would appear. I have long arms, and it was a tight fit with some of the hides. So no doubt the "perfect" jacket would have to be made from hides of a certain age of lamb/sheep, and SO MUCH is in the execution of the components. I had about 16 hides to choose from, and used 9 if I recall. But who knows what the batch that Tony originally ordered was like? And what choices he made? And as RC says, he was focussed on matching the grain of a different jacket entirely.

bendingoak
08-19-2010, 12:03 AM
I have to disagree here. I don't care who you are or if you meet Tony or not. There is no way any of us can tell from photos, screen grabs or what ever. Tony had the jacket in hand and had been working with leather for a very, very long time. I take his opinion over anyones else.




I will agree to this to a certain point (or maybe I'm fully agreeing, I don't know). I think that you can tell some things from photos and screen grabs. They are not a be-all, end-all by any means, but are a useful tool when used with other tools.

However, when what I'm seeing matches what Tony told me? I'm convinced and it would take a lot to change my mind.

Again, as said this until I'm blue in the face, and it seems to have been overlooked or discounted. I have never said that I discount what Cooper said. I wasn't there, I don't know what he said for sure. If he says he made his jackets out of calf or whatever, I have no reason to doubt the man whatsoever. But, if that's the case, then the jacket Tony had wasn't a Cooper's. This is strictly my opinion based on my knowledge of Tony's expertise and skill and what the man told me.

And while I have been critical of Peter in the past, I don't discount his involvement either. As I postulated before, it might be a matter of terminology at play here (at least in part). I think there is an intersection point for the stories and that is where you will find the starting point for the truth.


I think we are on the same page. you just can write better than I. how about I submit all my post for you to rewrite. ;D

crismans
08-19-2010, 01:47 AM
I think we are on the same page. you just can write better than I. how about I submit all my post for you to rewrite. ;D


Even if that's true, you can still make hats a heckuva lot better than me! ;) :D

bendingoak
08-19-2010, 02:26 AM
Thanks buddy

bendingoak
08-19-2010, 02:28 AM
Having now owned / worn / stared at both of these jackets & leather, IMO the grain in many panels of the first jacket I owned looks closer to the amount/degree of grain in the film jacket (especially the back & yoke), but it's the wrong type of shrunken grain when you liik really close. And I'm not talking about the striations. This earlier jacket approximates the right amount of grain with the wrong sort of grain in other words. My new jacket is the right sort of shrunken grain but in places the pebbling is indeed too excessive. It's a trade-off based on my personal preference. I needed a bigger jacket and didn't want to get exactly the same one twice.

The thing only a small handful of us have seen firsthand is very important though - each hide is different from the next, and the graining presents very differently in different places on a given hide. See below, how the bottom right - what become the shoulder area - has lumpier grain? I could have had it cut on the other diagonal. (Please note I've heavily distorted the outline of the sleeve uploaded here to protect the Nowak pattern.)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Distorted-9-Hide.jpg

I had to trade-off having perfect grain in some places with needing to fit a panel in in a certain orientation that meant the chunkier grain would appear. I have long arms, and it was a tight fit with some of the hides. So no doubt the "perfect" jacket would have to be made from hides of a certain age of lamb/sheep, and SO MUCH is in the execution of the components. I had about 16 hides to choose from, and used 9 if I recall. But who knows what the batch that Tony originally ordered was like? And what choices he made? And as RC says, he was focussed on matching the grain of a different jacket entirely.






I understand what you are saying but you didn't see the jacket. You are basing it off of what you see in person and poor screen grabs.

Gunslinger
08-19-2010, 02:35 AM
I'll have you know they were very good screen grabs! ;) :D

But I'm not sure what you think I'm saying...?

RCSignals
08-19-2010, 03:18 AM
That is also an uncut hide. As the bomber illustrated in his post the leather can change look of the grain depending how it's cut, stretched, manipulated. It's a nature of the shrunken grain process.
It's something someone who has worked with it for years gets to know and understand how to make it look in the finished product.
The shrunken grain process is permanent and will not 'wear off' or 'disappear' over time.

bendingoak
08-19-2010, 03:39 AM
I'll have you know they were very good screen grabs! ;) :D

But I'm not sure what you think I'm saying...?


Im not sure. Im not sure how we got here. ;D

RCSignals
08-19-2010, 03:49 AM
I think it was in an open car during a Zero to 60 3 second run :laugh:

Gunslinger
08-19-2010, 03:51 AM
What? We're all agreed? Oh, ok, moving on... :D

bendingoak
08-19-2010, 06:47 AM
I think it was in an open car during a Zero to 60 3 second run :laugh:




You like my ride huh. 8)

Raskolnikov
08-23-2010, 06:38 PM
Yes, I did it! I managed to read all the posts! ??? :laugh:
Ok. This is my two cents. About the amount of grain: Dan's jacket looks in my opinion much closer to what we see in the movie (not talking about the type of grain, but its 'intensity'). But we have to consider also that the jacket Tony had in his hands was more than 25 years old. We all know what time does to leather jackets and how smooth surfaces end up developing a considerable amount of grain. Now imagine what time can do to shrunken grain, enhacing what is already there but still in a subtle way, and then we have what Tony saw.
What I am really trying to say is.... Boy, Neutron and Gunslinger, try to Imagine your jackets in 2040!! :laugh: ;) (you know I love them)

RCSignals
08-23-2010, 06:57 PM
I doubt the jacket changed much just sitting around for 25 to 30 years, and that is pretty much all it has done, not having been worn much or at all after filming.
What we see casually on screen as slight or no grain is simply a result of characteristics of film.
I've never seen leather just develop more grain over time from just sitting around or hanging in a closet.
The shrunken grain process pretty much brings graining out to it's limit at tanning. That's one of the purposes of it.
So while it's a nice thought I doubt NB and gunslingers jackets will experiences changes in amount of grain by 2040 ???. They will experience changes in character from being worn over that time for sure.

neutronbomb
08-23-2010, 08:38 PM
Thank you for sharing this comparison photo kt.



Age wise I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. With the older animal you obviously get a bigger resulting finish leather and it may give you deeper cells. What you will get is thicker and stronger leather.

Note: the light coloured sample is sheep. It's as thick as regular cowhide.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9835/img9875p.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/img9875p.jpg/)

Some old leather from the old tannery.

It's draped over a full length mirror if that helps you with the scale.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2228/ribbyturnsleather.th.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/ribbyturnsleather.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Raskolnikov
08-23-2010, 08:39 PM
Yeah that last thing was just a joke ;). Those jackets will be as fine and maybe even better than they are now
I believe, though, that the movie jacket was in very poor conditions when Tony examined it and, from my own experience, there are two things that age material: two much use and no use at all. This jacket was abused and harmed before and while shooting the movie, that's for sure, but then, what else do we know about it? Doesn't seem to have been restored... Tony said it was in very poor conditions. Was it just stored in some place that was too dry, or too humid... And even if it was kept in a good place, dried and untreated leather may perfectly age with time, even if it is not used. You can perfectly see it in many old books when they have leather bindings.
Of course all of this is very questionable, but nevertheless I think that aging should be considered as well, along with other factors.

RCSignals
08-23-2010, 09:58 PM
yes leather ages and can become dry and brittle, crack, break, go to dust etc, suffer rot, and on and on.
Tony did say the jacket was in poor shape for sure. I think though it was in good enough condition that Tony had no trouble in his evaluation of it and could tell the original colour, texture etc. That was my impression.
He wanted to be exact with it. He could have made things easy and just said it was brown smooth leather, of any species readily available, Who would know the difference except the person who owns the jacket, but he didn't.

Raskolnikov
08-23-2010, 11:40 PM
Yeah. It would have being much easier for him to say that it was comon lamb, but he didn't because he prefered to tell what he really saw: shrunken lamb with the same amount of grain he used in his first replicas. But what I'm just wandering is if it looked the same way when it was used in the movie, because I find it hard to believe that such amount of grain 'smoothed' so much just with the lights or the type of film it was used. But, to be honest, there was this jacket Tony made for the character of Miles Strickland in the 'The Surrogates' that was also made in shrunken lamb, and it was very hard to notice:
From Film Jackets:
http://www.filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1788&p=23482&hilit=surrogates#p23482

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-001.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-002.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-003.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-004.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-005.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-006.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-007.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-008.jpg

http://www.filmjackets.com/FILM_JACKETS/surrogates/surrogates2-009.jpg

So maybe, after all, you are right...

Chewbacca Jones
08-23-2010, 11:59 PM
Rask, I've never seen this jacket before. Very compelling pics, I must say.

RCSignals
08-24-2010, 01:19 AM
Correct Rask, that jacket of 'Miles Strickland' is shrunken lamb, (made by Tony) and just as if not more grained as my 'striated' Raiders jacket. Maybe as grained as Gunslingers but not as grained as NB's (his and his families jackets are unique in that)

You can see about as much graining on the Miles Strickland jacket as the Raiders jacket in the movie.
It 'washes out' on film.

Chewbacca Jones
08-24-2010, 02:03 AM
I see more on this jacket than the Raiders. But lighting and color could account for that.

Gunslinger
08-24-2010, 02:13 AM
Any camera renders less detail the darker the subject, and the less available light. (I'm just colour grading a ton of shots this morning as I type this, and it made me remember this point). The lower the F-stop you have to shoot at, the less fine detail you get on anything dark. There's only so far you can push film stock in the lab.

So, if you shoot under a shadowy canopy like in Hawaii, it comes into play, ditto where you're aiming for a "temple" or crypt looking dim interior. And then you often have the opposite end of the same issue in bright daylight like in Tunisia - you have to expose for skin tones, so anything darker can skew darker again. Like a brown jacket ends up looking almost black as we see in Raiders. And that's not even talking filters yet! They can drastically alter exposure curves, removing highlights (IE of grain) entirely, as do polarising filters, which remove bouncing/reflective light that is a key thing that tells you a surface is dimpled-looking.

I'd love to do a comparison of my own jacket, but I've lost my Polariser. Which is annoying because it was a good, expensive one! Grrr. Something to do when I replace it.

hatch
08-25-2010, 02:11 PM
I'd love to see what NB's looks like on film and how the striations show up ......I'm thinking it might take someone like a 'Mickey Rourke' character to do it justice....

RCSignals
08-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Well that essl jacket of NB's does attract the ladies

hatch
08-25-2010, 06:12 PM
And they ALL seem to be Bikini wearing........ ;)......one of the all time great pics ....NB at the Beach...you owe it to this thread to repost it NB.......

knibs7
08-25-2010, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the photos


Kyle

crismans
08-25-2010, 07:11 PM
Yeah, that's one photo that deserves a repeat showing.

neutronbomb
08-26-2010, 06:41 PM
My wife is still giving me a hard time about this:

??? ??? ???
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/IMG_0100.jpg

I think Dartic_Jones said something like who wears their jacket at the beach anyway >:( ........... :-*

But, come on. Didn't you guys know these Indy jackets are real babe magnets 8) (sorry Canyon :angel:)


The sleeves were made just a bit long. Tony handed it to me and the first thing he said is I made the sleeves a bit longer because.........I just did.......I felt like it. Mmm hmm..okay? Why? Because I wanted to. Oh.........I see. I wanted to be extra double secret probation (ok, he didn't really say that) sure they weren't too short (I know he knows; he fitted me personally and absolutely knew the sleeve length I needed) because this is a special jacket and you live not too far and we can take as much off as we want, but we can never add to it and let's see what it looks like after it's broke in and everything. Oh....mmm....ok.......that's cool. F*ck it. Give to me and I'll take the extra off now. No..no. No....no. No one touches this jacket. ;D
Plus bomber you requested slimmer sleeves and the extra length with a bit of flair at the ends will be a real m@th&#!@#$%^. It's shrunken lamb so if you work it just a bit it will do it. You like to make it your own anyway. ok, I'll try it. Ok, let me know.

But, I was pretty self conscious about the sleeves and wasn't used to them being longer and felt like I wanted them up above my knuckles so for the first week I did that. And then, I saw the beach picture above for the first time and realized how stupid it looked. So a few months later I decided to have them shortened. But, right before I took it back it got soaked in the rain and I thought about maybe I should try what Tony suggested at least once anyway so I did. And he was right. So I kept them at the longer length. And then I realized that he had observed something insightful that had taken me a couple of months to figure out. He was good that way with people.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%201%20year%20old/th_IMG_0001-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%201%20year%20old/?action=view&current=IMG_0001-1.jpg)
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%201%20year%20old/th_IMG_0002-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%201%20year%20old/?action=view&current=IMG_0002-1.jpg)

Canyon
08-26-2010, 07:17 PM
But, come on. Didn't you guys know these Indy jackets are real babe magnets 8) (sorry Canyon :angel:)

Hey, no need to apologise to me. ;) As far as I'm concerned, the whole of the Indygear is a babe magnet. :D

Now, if you're all good, maybe I'll post a picture of me in my bikini... ;)





Suckers... ;D :D

neutronbomb
08-26-2010, 07:53 PM
oooooooh......so cruel :D Does Chewie know this about you ;D

hatch
08-26-2010, 08:42 PM
Thanks for pulling that pic out Bryan, Tony obviously 'knew' after working with you that you were the guy and the personality to pull off the look in that ESSL ......the slimmer, longer sleeves give it a great unique look.....man, what a beautiful jacket and thanks for sharing the story behind it, .......Doc

neutronbomb
08-27-2010, 01:07 AM
I took a few frame by frame screenshots of a few of the scenes where I thought I noticed interesting texture. Sometimes the difference of what popped out vs what didn't in a scene was sometimes within just a few frames.

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap128-2-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap128-2-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap126.jpg

Some replica jackets for context and reference and to compare against:
ESSL:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/IMG_0015.jpg

MarkI:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0731.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/TNMark1example-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0736.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0737.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/CIMG4499-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0726.jpg

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap121-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap121-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap124.jpg

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap116-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap116-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap116.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap112-2.jpgPlease click and view at 100%:http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap112-2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap112-2.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap112.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap13-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap15-1-1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap13.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap12.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap15-1.jpg

Came across this wrinkly cowhide vs shrunken lambskin comparison in my photobucket:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0752.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0751.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0698.jpg

Junior
08-29-2010, 10:59 PM
I took a few frame by frame screenshots of a few of the scenes where I thought I noticed interesting texture. Sometimes the difference of what popped out vs what didn't in a scene was sometimes within just a few frames.

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap128-2-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap128-2-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap126.jpg

Some replica jackets for context and reference and to compare against:
ESSL:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20My%20ESSL%20Jacket%20-%20New/IMG_0015.jpg

MarkI:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0731.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/TNMark1example-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0736.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0737.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/CIMG4499-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0726.jpg

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap121-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap121-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap124.jpg

Please click and view at 100%:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap116-1.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap116-1.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap116.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap112-2.jpgPlease click and view at 100%:http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/th_DVDSnap112-2.jpg (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/?action=view&current=DVDSnap112-2.jpg)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap112.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap13-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap15-1-1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap13.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap12.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap15-1.jpg

Came across this wrinkly cowhide vs shrunken lambskin comparison in my photobucket:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0752.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0751.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0698.jpg



Great screen shots. I concur. I've got a program on my laptop computer that ups the lines on the DVD giving me HD. I'm seeing alot of texture on the jacket even with the film grain.

PLATON
09-06-2010, 01:08 PM
In my humble opinion
this shot, as well as few others in the same scene, exhibit certain materials e.g. dirt, moss and/or other materials that have been rubbed on the jacket and/or strategically placed on it to amount for ageing and/or 'went through adventure' look.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap126.jpg

bendingoak
09-10-2010, 01:45 AM
Now that things have changed elsewhere. People are now changing their stories about Tony and the shrunken lamb. Maybe everyone shouldn't have thrown Tony under the bus so fast.


Maybe now some who supported Tony shouldn't have been looked upon as being emotional but just looked upon as supporting someone who they knew was right and couldn't speak for himself.


I'm sorry for throwing this out like that but I had to get it out.

jasonalun
09-10-2010, 01:50 AM
No problem, Oak. I think a lot of us feel that way.

RCSignals
09-10-2010, 02:54 AM
Now that things have changed elsewhere. People are now changing their stories about Tony and the shrunken lamb. Maybe everyone shouldn't have thrown Tony under the bus so fast.


Maybe now some who supported Tony shouldn't have been looked upon as being emotional but just looked upon as supporting someone who they knew was right and couldn't speak for himself.


I'm sorry for throwing this out like that but I had to get it out.




Thank you for posting that

bendingoak
09-10-2010, 03:21 AM
Thanks guys. Not picking on any one person but just an over view of the whole thing.

neutronbomb
09-22-2010, 07:15 PM
I don't think we're seeing moss or other materials, but the texture of the jacket. Here's a couple of the yoke panel of this same jacket in the truck scene:

I don't know that we're that far off:
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0731.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/DVDSnap1676-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/TN%20-%20First%20Visit%20to%20Shop/IMG_0726-1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP-Truck/DVDSnap1679-1.jpg




In my humble opinion
this shot, as well as few others in the same scene, exhibit certain materials e.g. dirt, moss and/or other materials that have been rubbed on the jacket and/or strategically placed on it to amount for ageing and/or 'went through adventure' look.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap126.jpg

Gunslinger
09-22-2010, 11:06 PM
I agree. Not the best angle, and very lumpy as it was the day I got it, but compare those shots to my yoke panel:

http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700_20100616_164500.jpg

And compared to some other Italian shrunken stuff I'm buying in a few days for a new Raiders jacket project:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/_DSC2265.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/_DSC2274.jpg

To me the only thing in question is just HOW "cooked" the shrunken-ness was on the original hide. You have the way it actually was vs. how it appears on film from shot to shot vs. how you want to approximate that in real life.

RCSignals
09-22-2010, 11:11 PM
Also those are just sample pieces. When it is manipulated into whatever jacket part it will be, the look can change slightly. It's the nature of the hide. Has to be manipulated to make it keep a pocket shape or whatever, before it is sewn. Otherwise you'd shave a co ck-eyed mess.

Gunslinger
09-23-2010, 12:30 AM
Yes, that's true. And I know when I got the sample on the left, for instance, it looked a bit smoother. Once I gently stretched it this way and that, the grain really popped to how you see it here.

PLATON
09-23-2010, 09:07 PM
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/1-DVD%20SNAP/DVDSnap126.jpg

What yoke panel? what no moss?
Don't you guys see that there are at least 3 different colors on just his right shoulder ?
There is green, light brown (like cinnamon) and the brown color of the jacket.

I don't see that anywhere else in the film.


Re the samples discussed, I like the one on the left of the keyboard.
The right one - not my cup of tea.

Gunslinger
09-23-2010, 10:03 PM
Well, the cinnamon stuff is the stripped back leather where it's been distressed, and yeah, it only very rarely shows up in the movie depending on the light.

I can also see the green hue you're talking about, but it's weird, isn't it? I think it's maybe a green colour gel or something from the lighting, that's picked up by the distessed scratching on his back. Could maybe be lens flare. It just seems more likely than the costumers rubbing green on his back.

PLATON
09-23-2010, 10:19 PM
I still have the feeling that there is a substance on his back.

You make me a jacket from the left sample stuff.
Where did you get it?

Gunslinger
09-23-2010, 10:23 PM
I can GET you some of the stuff on the left, but am still looking into the options of who to take it to to make a jacket from it.

bigrex
09-23-2010, 10:47 PM
I wish that new leather were lighter, kills all the screen accuracy, unless you're going to only be wearing it moping around in dark tunnels all day or something. However, I know many would agree too light of a color would also kill it, and perceptions of what is a "screen accurate" color will never end, so we just choose our own personal preferences, mine tend to run lighter.

Gunslinger
09-23-2010, 11:26 PM
With the new stuff, what I'm excited about is how "screen accurate" it really is. I mean, a lot of the time (and especially with leathe rcolour and grain) we're really talking about prop accuracy - the way something really was, not the way it appears on screen. And what really hit me with this stuff is that in person, it looks (actually screams) the way the jacket looks during much of the screen time - especially in the flying wing, truck chase, etc. Whenever I think of the uber-cool moments, its always a practically-black jacket.

IE:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders2010-05-22-14h59m27s253.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders-chestpanel.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders-outside-wos2.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/truck3.jpg

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd
09-24-2010, 12:33 AM
I agree, Gunslinger...

I have always thought the Main Jacket must have been almost black, or a very dark charcoal-brown. Look at how it compares to the earthy brown of the hat--- even in sunlight. Compare the strap to the jacket in this pic: (hats were Gunslinger's overlay)


http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af232/ribbymerino/aaa/WoS-Badarse-Still-Comp.jpg


H

Gunslinger
09-24-2010, 01:01 AM
Yeah absolutely. We're probably getting off topic here, but I've got this theory that the darker Indy's jacket is the more cool Indy is. (And I say that having a soft spot for the LC jacket and would also like one of them some day, so please don't be offended. Ditto for the CS.) I'm talking pure badarseness.

Like these:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/raiders_of_the_lost_ark_2.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/2869760803_944768f0a1_o.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/raiderscollar.jpg

But not this:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/big3re9.jpg

...ok, so there's probably a few things wrong with that last shot but you get the drift!

bigrex
09-24-2010, 02:02 AM
I guess part of my personal "bias" is that I think black leather jackets make me look like a mexican greaser or something, I think people with blue eyes actually look good in black leather. So, I prefer the CS look for myself, Anyheew, back to the real topic at hand...

Gunslinger
09-24-2010, 02:17 AM
Oh, it's ok, I don't think we'll get into too much trouble. It's just Starsky. He's no good in a fight.

Interesting thing re eye colour, actually - hadn't thought of that. Mine are blue so makes sense. But seriously I do wear a lot of earth tones and like brown jackets - but I think a lot of it is our own perseption of ourselves and what we feel best in - I'm picturing you in a black jacket and think you'd look fine, but you wouldn't feel fine, and that's a lot of the point in the end, isn't it? ;)

PLATON
09-24-2010, 07:57 AM
By the way, I think you all notice that this is not the hero

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/truck3.jpg

Gunslinger
09-24-2010, 08:44 AM
Yep. I don't think it is. It looks very much like the Hawaii jacket to me, but could also be the Imams, if they're 2 different jackets, that is... ;)

neutronbomb
09-24-2010, 04:45 PM
No, definitely not The Main Hero Jacket. The Main Hero is used in the entire truck sequence up until the bullet hole scene, then it switches to the jacket you pictured. I believe it's the Imam's.

Marauder
09-26-2010, 10:43 PM
So we are at teh point of saying the Imam is a separate jacket from the jacket Tony Nowak had to duplicate, that happens to have almost identical small details or that it is the same jacket?

If the Imam is the same jacket we knw quite a bit about it then, such as it being made of Shrunken grain lamb skin, left hand pull nickle zipper and no 'gaps' at the back panel to shoulder seam.

Gunslinger
10-04-2010, 04:07 AM
OK, I think I have found the exact leather:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/Raiders-chestpanel.jpg

These striations are very much flexible bubbles that change shape as you tortion the hide one way then another.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700-20101002-161348.jpg

neutronbomb
10-04-2010, 09:54 PM
I think so gunslinger. It looks the same to me. Didn't Peter maintain it was new Zealand lambskin.

Gunslinger
10-04-2010, 10:33 PM
I -think- so... One for KT?

Kt Templar
10-04-2010, 10:45 PM
Looks good, maybe needs to be slightly subtler, but closer than I've seen.

Send him about 50 sqft and get him to make you a Hero out of it.

neutronbomb
10-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Do you have any subtler hides gunslinger that KT might approve of? :angel:

Tyderium
10-05-2010, 01:19 AM
Looks excellent Kurt.
Are those the skins you sourced?
I've been out of the loop for the past bit..

crismans
10-05-2010, 01:44 AM
Those look great, Kurt. And I think you'll get a very close approximation of what we see on screen. Because, even though we know it was brown, as you've shown, the jacket was very dark and could appear black.

Gunslinger
10-05-2010, 02:44 AM
LOL. I do have some subtler hides, actually - I've got about 30 of 'em sitting about 10 feet away from me. ;)
It does look way less lumpy in person - in fact I had to take these shots with the light a certain way to get the grain to even show on camera at all. (Sounds familiar, huh?)

I'm still deciding where I'm going to send them - I've got a few options that I'm waiting to hear back about.

Yeah, Tyderium, this is them. Thanks!

Crisman, yeah, it's very weird, but in person, this particular shade of hide looks WAY more Raiders than my Nowak, which is a patchy very dark brown, almost black in places. Even with that, it's just no contest (as much as I LOVE that jacket). I mean, check out the texture and tone of it compared to the "by the barrels" shot above.

Gunslinger
10-05-2010, 08:03 AM
I've had a couple of queries about sourcing these hides for people - yes, I may be able to get more - just contact me by PM.

Indiego Jones
10-05-2010, 02:25 PM
wow! Kurt, you did it! ;)
Great find...I can't wait to see the jacket finished!
Congrats!

crismans
10-07-2010, 01:21 AM
Those hides look amazing, Kurt!

And to get back on topic a little, is it fair to say that most (not all, I realize) have gone back to the idea that the Raiders jacket was shrunken lamb? For some reason (read up on it and draw your own conclusions, it's really not that subtle), there was a big push that the jacket Tony had was a Cooper's and that it was made of calfskin. Whatever Tony said about the leather was thrown under the bus (along with Tony) and statements were made that he had made a mistake (even though I actually think Cooper has been quoted as saying it was made of thick cowhide, not calfskin).

However, those claims have been backed off of as of late. So, is the general consensus (allowing for some who believe otherwise) that it was shrunken lamb?

RCSignals
10-07-2010, 05:41 AM
Crisman you are correct in that. But either way you cut it, or however badly some people want the jacket to be calfskin, the jacket Tony Nowak was given to duplicate was lamb. Tony was very definite of that, there is no doubt.
and yes, Neil Cooper did state the original was 'thick cowhide'. That immediately dismisses the jacket Tony Nowak had as having been made by Neil Cooper. That in no way diminishes any jacket Neil Cooper did make, nor does it diminish the jacket Tony Nowak had to duplicate. Some people just have to justify and attempt to give lineage to their own preference, as if it means something. Completely irrational and unreasonable thinking.
Now none of that means of course that everyone today must have a Raiders jacket made of shrunken lamb. Far from it.

neutronbomb
02-03-2011, 12:25 AM
Yeah, we've taken this as far as it's going to go until something new breaks or blue ray or whatever comes out, but I thought I'd post a dimpling effect caused by light and camera angle that I came across accidentally and found interesting.

Shrunken Lamb hide
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Texture/ESSL_dimpledtexture.jpg

WOS
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Texture/main_dimpledtexture1.jpg
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Texture/main_dimpledtexture2.jpg

Kt Templar
02-09-2011, 09:26 PM
Merino sheep...

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8755/bitofmerino.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/bitofmerino.jpg/)

Indiego Jones
02-10-2011, 03:43 PM
Merino sheep...

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8755/bitofmerino.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/bitofmerino.jpg/)



KT, that's great stuff.
Where is this sample from?
It's shrunken? With some specific process, or just regular tanning?
Thanks!

Kt Templar
02-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Hi, If you check out the members' jackets section you'll find out more.... :)

Gunslinger
02-10-2011, 09:18 PM
It's interesting, isn't it - all the subtle variations of merino that are out there. With the discussions I've had with a couple of old-school leather traders (These guys have been wholesalers here in Australia, and travelled to Europe to source and specify hides and tanning for decades), they've basically told me that a major factor in the differences in the hides isn't just the process - it's the variety of Merino.

The Australian and New Zealand merinos each react differently to the tanning process. They were absolutely 100% without a doubt that my Mk1 / striated shrunken lamb Nowak was Australian merino. I put it to them that the "perfect", more subtle-grained stuff that I was looking at on their workbench (what was used for my recent jacket) had been "shrunk less" and they shook their heads. They said the subtle stuff is New Zealand merino, and that's the big difference. Anything with grain poppong to that degree is "shrunken" - it's just that the Australian pops FAR MORE as part of the process than the NZ. It's all about sensitivity.

Looking at this hide and KT's awesome new jacket, and what he's saying about it's thickness, to me it looks like it's either very thick NZ merino, with a truck-load of shrinkage process applied (It would simply HAVE to have, if it was NZ), OR Australian merino with only very weak processing, but definitely still some.

Either way, I'm a big fan of this stuff, KT! Great find. :banllama:

RCSignals
02-10-2011, 11:00 PM
The Australian and New Zealand merinos each react differently to the tanning process. They were absolutely 100% without a doubt that my Mk1 / striated shrunken lamb Nowak was Australian merino. I put it to them that the "perfect", more subtle-grained stuff that I was looking at on their workbench (what was used for my recent jacket) had been "shrunk less" and they shook their heads. They said the subtle stuff is New Zealand merino, and that's the big difference. Anything with grain poppong to that degree is "shrunken" - it's just that the Australian pops FAR MORE as part of the process than the NZ. It's all about sensitivity.

This is exactly what Tony said as well about different sheep and from different places. Different results from other sheep too, such as his first hides which duplicated the jacket he had, and his second hides which were less grained, but still not Merino. The tannery really has to know what they are doing to achieve the desired result.
My 'striated' SL jacket (the first of these Tony sourced for his limited run of Striated jackets) is more like Kt's in appearance. Then you get to NBs which is done to the extreme and something entirely all it's own and which you will likely not see again.
Gunslinger's 'Mk1' falls somewhere in between, a little closer to mine on a linear scale but more grainy.

It's all very interesting, the important thing of course is the final result in a jacket and Kt's is a winner for sure.

crismans
02-11-2011, 12:56 AM
My 'striated' SL jacket (the first of these Tony sourced for his limited run of Striated jackets) is more like Kt's in appearance.

KT's jacket gives me hope that I might get a striated (at least somewhat in appearance--don't want to confuse terms here-- as I really like the look of his jacket) Indy jacket. I've been--"thwarted" in my other attempts.

RCSignals
02-11-2011, 01:43 AM
yes 'ribby merino' is better than striated.

If Peter can get more or similar hides and use that new old pattern he's been working on, he has a winner. An offering in a nice goat would be great too.

neutronbomb
01-02-2014, 05:08 PM
Happy New Year! Have had fun reading back through some of these discussions. Took another look at KT's photo, where he developed his theory, of Dr. Scobie showing the raw ribby merino sheep skin. Those lines are wrinkles in the skin that seem for the most part to follow the line of the ribs. Here is what those ribby/skin wrinkle lines from that photo actually look like when tanned.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/ribbycompare1_zps4417c2cf.jpg~original

Here's the shrunken that Gunslinger found:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700-20101002-161348.jpg



Is that a slight slip of the keyboard? :)

We've all read the info from David, But I can repost here if it will help. I did find this little snippet from a piece he wrote in 1993 for a conference.



"Thinking about breeding easy care sheep? - Dr David Scobie, AgResearch, NZ"

http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/PC_91919.html?s=1001

Mac
02-11-2014, 10:08 PM
This debate is sounding very much like another a long time ago about a jacket. We know how that turned out.
How did that turn out? (Answer later Kurt;)) Because I thought the SL guys thought they were vindicated, while the anti-SL guys thought they were vindicated and everyone just stopped arguing about it?

Not to drag this thread off topic, into that debate, but Bill Kelso makes the most accurate Raiders replica that I have seen, based on what I see on screen, and I believe that he has said it is striated grainy veg tanned lamb and not shrunken lamb. But I could certainly be wrong about that. I wish Platon would chime in here and clarify.

Forgive me for going off topic:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/03_relichunter_zpse8814fee.jpg


Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found here: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 05:29 AM
Re the jacket, I was referring to certain people saying you can't tell a type of leather by looking at screenshots etc. People saying the jacket was smooth, etc. The reality is that unless a faction of us hadn't pushed the whole shrunken lamb issue, people would still be wearing smooth jackets today and you wouldn't have options like Kelso, etc. with textured / striated varieties of Raiders jacket.


Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found here: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

bendingoak
02-12-2014, 05:45 AM
First there were people before kelso who said it wasn't smooth.

Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found here: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 06:24 AM
Yes. I was one of them. That's my point.

Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found here: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

RCSignals
02-12-2014, 07:18 AM
"Kelso " was one who at one time thought it was smooth. Lol

Gunslinger
02-12-2014, 07:58 AM
Exactly mate. That's why I picked him to mention. ;) :D

Mac
02-12-2014, 03:05 PM
Re the jacket, I was referring to certain people saying you can't tell a type of leather by looking at screenshots etc. People saying the jacket was smooth, etc. The reality is that unless a faction of us hadn't pushed the whole shrunken lamb issue, people would still be wearing smooth jackets today and you wouldn't have options like Kelso, etc. with textured / striated varieties of Raiders jacket.

Most people who had studied the jacket seriously knew that it had some texture and grain. For example in "The ultimate screen accurate RAIDERS, Wested jacket specs." thread at COW posted on Wed Feb 15, 2006, Agent5 posted this:

"The leather company Wested sourced for the screen jackets used an old technique which gave the leather alot more grain as you can see in the posted pics. Sometime after Raiders, the leather company changed the process that they used to make the leather and the skins became alot smoother. For screen accuracy, I feel you need to ask for the thinnest and grainiest leather Wested can source."

This was well before KOTCS was in production and well before the introduction of Shrunken Lamb.

The problem wasn't that people who had studied the jacket for years thought that it was smooth, just that they thought that it wasn't nearly as over the top as TN Dino Hide version 1, and that Wested didn't have sources for or see a market for grainy leather. Wings did have SL at one time (long before Nowak), but very few of those jackets were being posted or raved about.

As for Platon/"Kelso," he was relatively new to the hobby at the time. But congratulations for convincing him of what most jacket guys knew for years. :):)

Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found here: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

RCSignals
02-12-2014, 08:31 PM
Photos of that dino hide were exaggerated, and disliked by the "smooth leather" brigade. Later accepted
"Shrunken lamb" is just a term for a process, and not even a universally used term for the same process. That is why one vendors shrunken lamb hide is not that of another. Different terms. Same process/result.

Admin Edit: Several Posts were copied from another thread relating to the Raiders Jacket to be discussed here and were edited to remove content applicable to the other thread. The full unedited posts can be found in this thread: Defending AB & Penman Hats' Raiders Ribbon (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/2013-Defending-AB-amp-Penman-Hats-Raiders-Ribbon)

admin
02-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Here is where the recent posts from Mac and others regarding the raiders jacket are located.

Kt Templar
02-17-2014, 09:22 PM
I think it's important to refresh the 2 terms.

The striations are part of the genetic make up of the sheep. This gives the lines. This is Merino Ribby leather.

If you add the enzyme process 'Crisping' (European term) as in 'Mouton Crispe' or 'Shrunken Grain', 'Shrinking' (Nowak Term) you exaggerate the underlying pebbly structure and get that sort of 'dino skin' result.

I do not believe that the raiders jackets were particularly processed in a way to emphasize the grain. The lines come from the fact that they are low grade, cheaper skins particularly chosen because they had character from merino type sheep. They were veg tanned, meaning they were less shiny and had a more natural look.

There was a lot of crisped lamb/sheep round in the 80's, and there is even some crisped cowhide around, some posh handbags are made from it, but again, I do not believe that the Raiders leather was "crisped".

Shrunken leather europe is a different term, it's a washed (and non cell exaggerating) treated leather, it gives a wrinkled and worn in look. 'Shrunken' often used synonymously with 'washed' but washed also means enzyme or chemical 'washed' to look old, in a similar way that you get various 'washed' finishes used for denim.

Kt Templar
02-17-2014, 09:58 PM
Eg: An example of a shrunken or crispe calfskin:

http://www.portero.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/-/2-11767-212208--authentic-hermes-vachette-crispe-fjord-birkin-40-natural-mustard----3ef4683.jpg

neutronbomb
02-17-2014, 10:06 PM
Did you get a chance to view this post KT? link (http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/109-ROTLA-film-jacket-leather?p=22769&viewfull=1#post22769)

Kt Templar
02-17-2014, 10:20 PM
Yes it did. Unless that is the screen used jacket, I still believe that it is not the correct leather. The distinction is that should be regularly veg tanned merino and not a crispé merino.

I think Tony got the breed right but overcompensated and chose a crispé merino. Easy enough to do and not a criticism of him.

RCSignals
02-18-2014, 01:50 AM
Shrunken was a term Tony used but it is not exclusively his. Crispe may be a term used in Europe for the same or similar process however the process Tony spoke of specifically he knew from France. France is still Europe I think

The other aspect to remember is the process can produce varying degrees of the effect. (E.g. The jacket Neutron bomb had made which used hides specifically processed to him, and the grain being with maximum " shrunken" effect). Not just one standard appearance. The first hides Tony used were to replicate the jacket he had and it took him awhile to get what he wanted. So basically what we saw was what he saw. Some liked it. Some didn't

None of this precludes any other process for hides from creating the same or similar effect.

djd
02-18-2014, 07:17 AM
I was interested to find that a late 60s/ early 70s car coat I bought recently has panels of crispe type leather (quite large cells compared to the wested). It doesn't state the leather type although it's soft like lamb. Was made in Finland.

RCSignals
02-18-2014, 07:44 PM
Could very well be djd. The french tannery of that era apparently was the largest processor of it at that time and shipped hides all over the world. Korea was a big user of the hides

neutronbomb
05-16-2014, 07:25 PM
Platon. Request for input.
http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/109-ROTLA-film-jacket-leather?p=23090&viewfull=1#post23090

Mac
05-17-2014, 05:26 AM
Patience NB...six months will fly by before you know it! :)

Gunslinger
05-17-2014, 07:36 AM
:D

neutronbomb
05-17-2014, 03:54 PM
??? :banghead:

PLATON
05-19-2014, 07:18 AM
Hi guys, the striated lambskin leathers used to make the Kelso jacket are 100% natural and vegetable tanned. The tannery is proud of that. BK has tested several leathers from various tanneries worldwide and among those were leathers processed (crispe) that looked like TN's dino hide. It is worth noting that while many tanneries offered crispe and similar leathers, only one tannery had the screen accurate leather that BK use.

PLATON
05-19-2014, 07:31 AM
One more thing, the big striations on the film's jacket right chest come from the animal's neck. When BK received their last batch, I looked at all the skins and found one that had the exact pattern. There was only 1 in the entire batch. I asked them to save it for me to be used in my next jacket, but unfortunately, as they were running out of leathers they used that one too, so some customer got it.

Having seen hundreds of different kinds of leathers in person in the past years, I can say that the 30 years old lamb TN found looks to be processed rather than natural.

djd
05-19-2014, 08:46 AM
The hides that Steele and Jones were using certainly had the correct striations.... I take it that wasn't from the same tannery as Kelso uses Platon?

Mac
05-19-2014, 04:59 PM
Hi guys, the striated lambskin leathers used to make the Kelso jacket are 100% natural and vegetable tanned. The tannery is proud of that. BK has tested several leathers from various tanneries worldwide and among those were leathers processed (crispe) that looked like TN's dino hide. It is worth noting that while many tanneries offered crispe and similar leathers, only one tannery had the screen accurate leather that BK use.

Having seen hundreds of different kinds of leathers in person in the past years, I can say that the 30 years old lamb TN found looks to be processed rather than natural.”

This would seem to support Peter Botwright's assertion that the original Raiders jackets were not Shrunken Lamb, particularly if you agree that Kelso’s Striated Lambskin Relic Hunter is an excellent match to the screen used jackets.

Peter’s post from COW at the dawn of the Shrunken Lamb wars:


Let’s be clear about this. I made the original Raiders jackets.

I bought the skins as New Zealand lamb in crust from Jim Hume (Fellmongers) in Scotland. I sent the skins to Mr. Jeff Clark of Turn Leathers Tannery at Todmorden in Yorkshire. They contract tanned the skin to my specification which was a worn look finish.

The rib marks, tick marks, and machine skinning stretch marks are typical of New Zealand and Australian Skins and were all put into the jackets to add character which is what you see.

IT WAS NOT SHRUNKEN LAMB.

I had never heard of Shrunken Lamb until recently and Jef Clarke in 1980 would have scratched his head as he only tanned in the traditional way of pegging out to dry naturally which produced a firm skin totally different to modern tanning systems which can create beautiful varieties you can get now.

I don’t usually quote names but facts are facts.

Cheers,
Peter

Here’s the Striated Lambskin Relic Hunter compared to some 1930’s military A-1 sheepskin (older lamb) jackets which were unquestionably NOT processed with a shrunken grain process for fashion purposes, being manufactured by the lowest bidder.

Relic Hunter:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/03_relichunter_zpsebe7df68.jpg

Original A-1's:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/DoolittleA-1RaidersBW.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/OAHWRaiders2.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/OAHW-GrantChest-closeup.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/A-1CapeskinApril1938BrigGenJamesChaney2.jpg

djd
05-19-2014, 09:24 PM
Some great pictures Mac. They illustrate your point (and Peter's) superbly.

neutronbomb
05-19-2014, 11:44 PM
I disagree. There's a lot to post. More along the lines of photo compares and finding old posts to go along with everything, so I'll have to do it in small chunks over time but I'll throw out some of the ideas here and a few compares.

First of all, I disagree with Platon on the 30 year skin from TN that Platon said looks to him to be processed (also with his statement that the striations we see on the shoulder of the main hero come from the neck area of the sheep). I'm not sure we can tell that by just looking at the photo even though it may well be. Here's a post from RCSignals that shows the skin.


This is Tony's 30 year old shrunken lamb skin.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/Shrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/RCSignals/media/Shrunken%20Lamb/Shrunken.jpg.html)

......

This is the other photo he sent with it
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/RCSignals/Shrunken%20Lamb/Indyshrunken.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/RCSignals/media/Shrunken%20Lamb/Indyshrunken.jpg.html)

I also disagree with Mac's photo compares. One thing I am noticing with most unprocessed merino skins like the ones bk uses and steele and jones is that you see, to try and describe without photo compares, a lot of what looks like big patterned, hard etched lines that resemble a bit like a rectangular pattern. The first photo that Mac showed in his post below is a good example. And I don't see any striation bubble lines on those old photos Mac provided either. Even the one he used as a compare to the back of Indy's jacket.

Here's a few photos I snapped of a guy standing in line in front of me wearing a jacket that looks like those old photos from Mac. Not in my opinion shrunken lamb and not in my opinion what the film jacket looks like.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/leather%20graining/IMG_0873_zps12d977c9.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/leather%20graining/IMG_0872_zps0c46162d.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/leather%20graining/IMG_0871_zps96858558.jpg~original
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/leather%20graining/IMG_0869_zps052afed6.jpg~original

So basically two things. The big patterned, hard etched, rectangular lines I don't really see just like that on any of the jacket photos or screen caps from ROTLA. Not even the back one mac provided in his post as a compare. And, I don't see the line of striation bubbles on those old merino photos either. just like in the photos above of the guys black jacket.

Additionally, I don't see on any photos or screen caps from ROTLA that looks like this (see below). A revisit to this post made previously on this thread, but that was ignored for some reason. Look carefully at the raw skin photo that KT provided from Scobie. Big, massive, thick lines. These are the ribby striation lines. Look closely everyone. I really don't think you guys really have yet. The Ribby Striation Lines are like thick coils in this photo KT provided for his theory. No look at my jacket. THAT is what they look like when they are tanned. Do you see?????? Now also look at how my ESSL jacket contains all of that as seen in the raw hide photo PLUS it has the bubbles from the shrunken process. Do you see that they are different. So what you are seeing in the Scobie photo is what my jacket is. This is not what we are seeing in the film jacket. I think gunslingers photo below is much closer.
http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/109-ROTLA-film-jacket-leather?p=22769&viewfull=1#post22769

Happy New Year! Have had fun reading back through some of these discussions. Took another look at KT's photo, where he developed his theory, of Dr. Scobie showing the raw ribby merino sheep skin. Those lines are wrinkles in the skin that seem for the most part to follow the line of the ribs. Here is what those ribby/skin wrinkle lines from that photo actually look like when tanned.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/ROTLA%20-%20Shrunken%20Lamb/ribbycompare1_zps4417c2cf.jpg~original

Here's the shrunken that Gunslinger found:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/roninbd/D700-20101002-161348.jpg



Is that a slight slip of the keyboard? :)

We've all read the info from David, But I can repost here if it will help. I did find this little snippet from a piece he wrote in 1993 for a conference.



"Thinking about breeding easy care sheep? - Dr David Scobie, AgResearch, NZ"

http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/PC_91919.html?s=1001

However, you can see gunslingers photo of his jacket looks much closer. Even of the bill Kelso jacket that Mac posted. And that the striation bubbles are not in the neck region. I'm not sure about the neck area being something we can just hang our hat on as being a fact.

Until we get that interview from Peter that KT was going to do there are just too many contradictions in the various posts we have that he's made over the years. I especially don't like the one he made about crisp lamb that was actually a photo of cowhide and where he said he was just learning about it for the first time when it's been around and was apparently used heavily in the 80's.

And here's something really, really fun. Here's a compare of a bill kelso to a Tony Nowak 1st batch of shrunken lamb. Yet Tony's is described as way over the top compared to the Kelso. Seriously......seriously :rolleyes: Maybe that's not such an accurate description when compared right next to a kelso. Oh No!!.. and Gosh Dangit Platon. Where are those bubble striations on that TN coming from ???
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/billkelsocompare_zps4c94aee3.jpg~original

Here's some texture photos of the Imam collar. You can see in different lighting the texture and striations is more visible than in others. In the Take4 photo for instance you can see bubbles on the collar stand. Notice in the same jacket in the hawaiian temple exit photo where this can't be seen on the collar stand. Much detail is lost in the film.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/striationcompare_zpsacf87ca0.jpg~original

Here's a compare with a TN to the striation lines on the Imam. Not bad even though the TN is a later batch that is not the original 1st batch.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/ribbycompare2_zpsda475bfe.jpg~original

Here's more texture shots of the Imam jacket with one thrown in of The Main Hero jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texturecompare2_zpsa1600553.jpg~original

And another.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texturecompare3_zpsf91c5d7f.jpg~original

Here's a compare of the pocket of Tony's own personal 1st batch SL (shrunken lamb) that I own to the Imam jacket.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/texturecompare1_zpsca9495ce.jpg~original

And last, a compare of Tony's 1st batch SL to the Take4 behind the scenes photo of the Imam jacket. Check out as close as you can the texture of the take4 photo. I don't see those big large rectangles etched lines from the old photos Mac provided and the ones I showed of the guy's jacket standing in line that matches Macs. Also, as you can see from the photos of TN's jacket the shrunken lamb presents in many different ways. Some of which match fairly well to what we can see in that photo.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/take4compare_zps60e64c77.jpg~original

And here's a close up of the bubbles Platon mentioned in anther thread that are on the collar stand of the take4 photo. I'm not sure we can say with certainty that it is a ribby striation line. You can see on the TN jacket in the previous photos that are bubbles that also match what this looks like.
http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/neutronbomb_photos/Take%204%20Hawaii%20Jacket%20Photo/hawaii_take4_2_zpse714cd01.jpg~original

Mac
05-20-2014, 01:47 AM
And, I don't see the line of striation bubbles on those old merino photos either.

More photos of the same jackets:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/OAHWRaiders1.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/CaryGrant-OAHW1939frontclosed-640x480.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/CaryGrant-OAHW1939sleevecloseup.jpg~original

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/Mac0/Jackets/ChaneyA-11938StriationsCircled-640x480_zps905eaa14.jpg~original

neutronbomb
05-20-2014, 04:20 AM
Nice. Thank you. I especially like the pocket of the first three photos.

PLATON
05-20-2014, 07:00 AM
Hi,
Striations can be found in the animal's sides and sometimes at the neck. Most of the skins I have seen have long and narrow striations on the sides. The big bubble striations appear to be more rare and I don't doubt they can appear at the sides too. Remember Gunslinger was able to select the hides he bought.

Other characteristics of the hides, besides striations are the grain which can be really coarse sometimes and also a beehive pattern like that on the jacket of the guy sitting in front of you.

Generally, striations are there but tend to be smooth and if you stretch the skin they somewhat disappear. They are not intense and solid on the surface of the skin. If that happens then we 're talking either about some process (chemical or other) or about a different breed of animal. One that has taken steroids or something :D

TN's skins where a lot heavier and stiffer than Kelso's. They were almost like someone imitated the striated lambskin on heavy cowhide so to speak.

The 1930s jackets shown by Mac are excellent examples of how the real thing looks like.
The coils on TN's jackets are anything but natural for my eyes.

On the hero jacket the striations on the right panel are neck because you see only 4-5 of them and then the rest is clear. If it was side, the striations would be running all the way from top to bottom.

PLATON
05-20-2014, 07:10 AM
The tannery Kelso works with offers also crispe and shrunken (same as TN's dino) and they say that the grain (scales) on it are natural. I guess they are natural but they are very much enhanced with the shrunken process.

One thing for sure is what Peter said. The film jacket wasn't shrunken.

djd
05-20-2014, 08:09 AM
My steele and Jones jacket differs in texture markedly from panel to panel. Some are smooth, some have the ribs and some display cells. I assume that this was all the same type of leather, prepared in the same manner. The point being that there's a huge range of possible effects within the same type of hide prepared in the same way. You're only likely to get a uniform look across an entire jacket if you specifically select pieces of leather that match- which they didn't do for raiders.

PLATON
05-20-2014, 11:58 AM
Yep, and I am sure there's a lot more on the jacket's surface that we don't see on film (I haven't seen the blue ray).

neutronbomb
05-20-2014, 04:10 PM
That's a bullshit statement Platon.

......One thing for sure is what Peter said. The film jacket wasn't shrunken.

PLATON
05-20-2014, 04:38 PM
Wanna bet?
I could send you a piece of shrunken and a piece of natural striated lamb to see for yourself. The shrunken is far from the film jacket. The natural is as close as it gets.

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 10:52 AM
Lol. Crispe, shrunken, same thing

Shrunken was Tony's term. That process does not create anything in the hide it only enhances what is there. Tony also spoke and demonstrated to people how the hide needed to be manipulated when being made into. Garment, and stretching or pulling in different directions changed the appearance. The 'shrunken' process also apparently made the hides more difficult to work with as when cut the shape would change, tony claimed. So sewing it was a challenge of sorts

Platon neither of my jackets are heavy hides , or cowhide like as you describe. In fact they may even be lighter to a degree than the lamb ToD jackets from Wested. Who's TN Raiders did you see? Are you sure they were ones made of lamb? Just curious.

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 11:13 AM
My steele and Jones jacket differs in texture markedly from panel to panel. Some are smooth, some have the ribs and some display cells. I assume that this was all the same type of leather, prepared in the same manner. The point being that there's a huge range of possible effects within the same type of hide prepared in the same way. You're only likely to get a uniform look across an entire jacket if you specifically select pieces of leather that match- which they didn't do for raiders.

It is a skin. It will vary. Both of my TN Raiders are as you describe as well

Selecting hides for specific placement on one of our reproduction jackets is not unreasonable though. At least for us crazies who notice these things.
What some forget it seems sometimes is that we only have reproductions, not the original jackets. Lol

PLATON
05-21-2014, 02:31 PM
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- - - Updated - - -

Hi my friend.

I disagree.

Shrunken is not Tony's term and it's not the same as crispe.

This is crispe

http://s30.postimg.org/9tk719yoh/image.jpg

This is shrunken

http://s30.postimg.org/5j5j5otld/image.jpg

From what I understand the crispe's grain is natural (but somehow enhanced) while the shrunken's grain is somehow created out of nothing. I am not so sure about the latter. Got to ask the tannery.

The TN jacket I handled was the dino, I haven't seen the soft one like yours. Why don't you post a picture of yours?

(PM: Have you seen my email?)

Indiego Jones
05-21-2014, 03:08 PM
The only person who handled an original RAIDERS Hero jacket, and shared his thoughts about it, was Tony. And he knew about leather.
So, you can choose to believe his insights, or not. Period.

I'm sorry, but I can't remember correctly.
Tony said "The movie jacket was made out of shrunken lambskin" ? OR "The closest grain/texture/thickness you can ffind this days to replicate this, is shrunken lambskin" ?

I agree that a 30 years old jacket, made of Ribby Merino Skin, can look like shrunken lamb or crispe. No doubt.
You just need: badly storage, humidity, no wear.

The "natural" tan process, have only a part of natural.
Vegetable tanning also needs different chemicals in the process.
And the results may vary depending on how this process is carried on.
Grain can be enhanced using the same fluids recipe, but altering the process.

Mac
05-21-2014, 03:19 PM
The only person who handled an original RAIDERS Hero jacket, and shared his thoughts about it, was Tony.

Er...there was also the guy who created the Raiders jackets - Peter. Posted his thoughts recently...

Indiego Jones
05-21-2014, 03:45 PM
Hi guys, the striated lambskin leathers used to make the Kelso jacket are 100% natural and vegetable tanned. The tannery is proud of that. BK has tested several leathers from various tanneries worldwide and among those were leathers processed (crispe) that looked like TN's dino hide. It is worth noting that while many tanneries offered crispe and similar leathers, only one tannery had the screen accurate leather that BK use.

I've found a tannery in France. Makes beautiful striated lambskins. Veg tanned.
I have a sample skin right here.
Never handled a BK jacket, so I can't assure is the same leather...but looks pretty close.


The hides that Steele and Jones were using certainly had the correct striations.... I take it that wasn't from the same tannery as Kelso uses Platon?

Our Ribby Merino Skins not only have the correct striations, there's more of "accuracy" in there.

I confirm, we don't buy from the same tannery as Kelso.





Er...there was also the guy who created the Raiders jackets - Peter. Posted his thoughts recently...

You are right. Peter post saying the Raiders jacket wasn't made of shrunken lambskin.
Thanks MAC.
Same as I said about Tony, people can choose to believe him or not.


Post author NOTE: I'm not saying I believe Tony's or Peter's word. I keep that for me. ;)

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:31 PM
Interesting Indiego. A French tannery is where Tony originally ( back in the 80's) started sourcing this type of leather he spoke of. The French tannery apparently discovered the technigue that Tony called 'Shrunken'. They produced a great deal of the stuff, selling huge amounts to Korean manufacturers.

On another note, has anyone noticed the jacket in the KIA 'luxury car' advertisement?

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:34 PM
The only person who handled an original RAIDERS Hero jacket, and shared his thoughts about it, was Tony. And he knew about leather.
So, you can choose to believe his insights, or not. Period.

I'm sorry, but I can't remember correctly.
Tony said "The movie jacket was made out of shrunken lambskin" ? OR "The closest grain/texture/thickness you can ffind this days to replicate this, is shrunken lambskin" ?

I agree that a 30 years old jacket, made of Ribby Merino Skin, can look like shrunken lamb or crispe. No doubt.
You just need: badly storage, humidity, no wear.

The "natural" tan process, have only a part of natural.
Vegetable tanning also needs different chemicals in the process.
And the results may vary depending on how this process is carried on.
Grain can be enhanced using the same fluids recipe, but altering the process.


That process you describe is how Tony described the "shrunken" process, pretty much exactly. Bryan's jacket is an example of it taken to an extreme

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:35 PM
Er...there was also the guy who created the Raiders jackets - Peter. Posted his thoughts recently...

What was said recently? Anything new?

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:37 PM
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- - - Updated - - -

Hi my friend.

I disagree.

Shrunken is not Tony's term and it's not the same as crispe.

This is crispe

http://s30.postimg.org/9tk719yoh/image.jpg

This is shrunken

http://s30.postimg.org/5j5j5otld/image.jpg

From what I understand the crispe's grain is natural (but somehow enhanced) while the shrunken's grain is somehow created out of nothing. I am not so sure about the latter. Got to ask the tannery.

The TN jacket I handled was the dino, I haven't seen the soft one like yours. Why don't you post a picture of yours?

(PM: Have you seen my email?)


If the shrunken people are telling you about is a 'created out of nothing' effect it is not the same process Tony described. That is definite

djd
05-21-2014, 07:48 PM
Changing the subject slightly... Peters shrunken lamb is very different to anything else I've seen. None of the cells, just very aged looking

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:58 PM
I think that is it when talking 'shrunken'. There is no standard between manufacturers using the term.

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 07:59 PM
Here you go Platon. My striated jacket

http://www.fortuneandglory.org/threads/152-TNO-striated-Shrunken-lamb-Raiders

Indiego Jones
05-21-2014, 08:23 PM
The "natural" tan process, have only a part of natural.
Vegetable tanning also needs different chemicals in the process.
And the results may vary depending on how this process is carried on.
Grain can be enhanced using the same fluids recipe, but altering the process.

That process you describe is how Tony described the "shrunken" process, pretty much exactly. Bryan's jacket is an example of it taken to an extreme

I never had the opportunity to meet Tony.
From what others tell me, a unique and special person. I think we would have come to understand very well.

On the tanning process, what I'm trying to say is, most probably we are all talking about the same skins, same tanning recipe BUT different process. And of course, different results (grain, texture, thickness).


edit

- - - Updated - - -

Hi my friend.

I disagree.

Shrunken is not Tony's term and it's not the same as crispe.

This is crispe

http://s30.postimg.org/9tk719yoh/image.jpg

This is shrunken

http://s30.postimg.org/5j5j5otld/image.jpg

From what I understand the crispe's grain is natural (but somehow enhanced) while the shrunken's grain is somehow created out of nothing. I am not so sure about the latter. Got to ask the tannery.

The TN jacket I handled was the dino, I haven't seen the soft one like yours. Why don't you post a picture of yours?


If I'm not mistaken, the terms about skins finish, according tanning processes, are not world standarize.
Some tannery in France call his product "Crispé", an italian one "Lavato"... Here in southamerica "Rústico".

And I don't quite understand your statement "...while the shrunken's grain is somehow created out of nothing" ?
Do you think is embossed/stamped ?

RCSignals
05-21-2014, 09:29 PM
I never had the opportunity to meet Tony.
From what others tell me, a unique and special person. I think we would have come to understand very well.

On the tanning process, what I'm trying to say is, most probably we are all talking about the same skins, same tanning recipe BUT different process. And of course, different results (grain, texture, thickness).





As Tony said, it is veg tanned, but there is additional step in the tanning for what he termed 'shrunken' which can be adjusted altering the effect. This step has the effect of enhancing the grain. He also said the appearance would vary by breed of sheep. For example, he had to source different skins for my ribby or striated jacket. This is in line what you are saying

Gunslinger
05-21-2014, 10:50 PM
Lavato was the term my leather wholesaler used. These are the guys that I bought my accurate skins from.

These are very experienced old-school guys that have been Australia's biggest supplier for decades.

I showed them my Raiders Nowak. They said it was more pronounced in at least part because of the merino species, More so than the process. That was the same day I was rifling through a massive pile of skins (about 200 of them) to pick out those with the right grain for the black one with the striations you see up higher in this thread.many were basically flat with very little grain. I'd say one in ten was great Raiders leather.

They made a point of telling me it was New Zealand merino.

It was after I published that info and photos that numerous vendors started coming out with this toned down hide.

Those striations can present as one big scar line each, until you pull at a 45 degree angle and they pop into the famous bubbles.

RCSignals
05-22-2014, 12:08 AM
Yup

What's in a name? Lol

indydude18
05-22-2014, 12:24 AM
Lavato was the term my leather wholesaler used. These are the guys that I bought my accurate skins from.

These are very experienced old-school guys that have been Australia's biggest supplier for decades.

I showed them my Raiders Nowak. They said it was more pronounced in at least part because of the merino species, More so than the process. That was the same day I was rifling through a massive pile of skins (about 200 of them) to pick out those with the right grain for the black one with the striations you see up higher in this thread.many were basically flat with very little grain. I'd say one in ten was great Raiders leather.

They made a point of telling me it was New Zealand merino.

It was after I published that info and photos that numerous vendors started coming out with this toned down hide.

Those striations can present as one big scar line each, until you pull at a 45 degree angle and they pop into the famous bubbles.

Maybe they were referring to "Lavado" which means "washed" in Spanish

PLATON
05-22-2014, 07:12 AM
The Kelso stuff is from New Zealand. Everything Gunslinger said is true.

RCSignals
05-22-2014, 08:19 AM
In the sense that the process doesn't create the grain. It has an effect on the grain, and that can be minor or extreme depending how the tannery makes adjustment. If you saw the hides that made Up Bryan's jacket, and Bryan's jacket itself, you'd see immediately

As I recall gunslingers TN was one of the lesser processed specifically as he requested. With that in mind the wholesalers comment on Gunslingers jacket makes perfect sense.

The manipulation of the hide to adjust the grain effect was shown in photos by Tony if anyone remembers those.

Tibor
05-22-2014, 06:33 PM
The Kelso stuff is from New Zealand. Everything Gunslinger said is true.

Just wanted to slip in another observation.. The second generation shrunken lamb that Tony used had a bit of a purplish hue to the brown which I didn't care for. To my eye, Kelso has nailed the color perfectly and replicated that dark and medium brown depending on the lighting.

Gunslinger
05-22-2014, 09:13 PM
The wholesaler said that although Austalian merino can be produced with a more flat effect, it is the only hide (vs the NZ merino) that can produce the full-on grain.

That more grained Nowak was put together by matching hide patterns to the movie, panel by panel. A damn shame I had to sell it but it was too heavy for where I live, temperature wise. The "lesser grain" one you're talking about RC was a third (actually first) Nowak I bought - the 2nd gen grain.

RCSignals
05-22-2014, 11:14 PM
Your first jacket was special that way
I thought you had sold it by the time you found the black hides at the wholesaler, but anyway yes that is what Tony said as well about hides from different areas and different breeds. One really has to know what they want and how to get/find exactly where the source is. Not easy

RCSignals
05-22-2014, 11:20 PM
Just wanted to slip in another observation.. The second generation shrunken lamb that Tony used had a bit of a purplish hue to the brown which I didn't care for. To my eye, Kelso has nailed the color perfectly and replicated that dark and medium brown depending on the lighting.

I think the colour was kept pretty consistent between runs. My second generation colour is pretty much identical to what would be about a third generation in my second jacket with the ribbiness

Remember Tony had the colour of the original he had duplicated best he could. What that looks like on screen vs in person may not be exactly the same.

The photos of the Bill Kelso's all look great to me, as do the Steele and Jones. Both of those I know put a great deal of research, time and effort into their jackets and as far as I'm concerned are the two best choices today of what is available

Gunslinger
05-23-2014, 12:12 PM
Your first jacket was special that way
I thought you had sold it by the time you found the black hides at the wholesaler, but anyway yes that is what Tony said as well about hides from different areas and different breeds. One really has to know what they want and how to get/find exactly where the source is. Not easy

Just to clarify. My first Nowak was a smoothish 2nd gen "puckered finger" variety. 2nd was the brown one with 1st gen grain (one of the last Riley made with Tony's original stock that Neutronbomb graciously helped me pick out myself), and my third was the black one where I sourced the hides, drew up the panels and sent to Riley to make.

I would not go anywhere but S&J or Kelso were I to buy another Raiders. They just nail it so well.

RCSignals
05-23-2014, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the clarification. You had confused me. Lol
I remembered neutron helping with that. Weren't some of the hides from his stock, or all from what Tony got in to make mine?
I suspect Riley mistakenly made at least one jacket from neutron's hide stock, as I remember from the time someone commenting their surprise. Lol. Neutron's hide effect is definitely largely from the process, to see it you'd know immediately.

djd
05-26-2014, 01:59 PM
I'm just watching The Devils Brigade which happens to be on TV. William Holdens A2 is a dead ringer for the raiders type leather

Kt Templar
05-26-2014, 04:16 PM
Just for fun a piece of veg tanned ribby merino.

http://i57.tinypic.com/w2hedf.jpg